Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

lexusguy

Modern RWD cars generally dont spin out unless you've disabled all of the traction computers and then do something stupid. Oversteer is also something you make the car do, not something that happens by accident. The TL's problem is different. With the stick and the LSD, when hitting the gas out of a corner, (the kind of thing you buy a sports sedan for in the first place) the steering wheel is trying to wrestle itself out of your hands and drive the car into a wall (or off a cliff). With RWD or AWD, the steering is your friend, not your enemy. The TL's motor and six-speed is just too much for FWD.

Come on. "A way to get from one place to another." ? If that was it, then why not drive a Ford E-350 van? From a packaging stand point, a sedan is horrendously inefficient. Who cares how the van drives, look at how much more people or stuff it can take from one place to another.

Despite having a rear drive shaft, the G35 sedan still manages to have quite a bit more space in the rear than say, a FWD Volvo S60. I agree with you on one thing though, the TL is a family sedan with a bit of sport sauce. The G35 and 330i on the other hand, are sports sedans.

gee35coupe

Not quite high 20's low 30's that the TL gets. Not to mention those vans have a horrible tendency to flip over.

The TL also costs a lot less than all of these RWD sedans when comparably equipped. RWD is a want, not a need. It's fun and does have an advantage it at-the limit driving. But when you consider that most drivers won't come anywhere near the limits of these cars, most of us, active word MOST, will have no problem in a TL. Just as MOST people will find the IS250's 200 hp just as fine as the sub-200hp European engines that have been the highest sellers until recently.

lexusguy

I'm not saying the TL is a bad car. Its quite good and offers a good value. I just dont think getting one with the 6-speed is a smart idea. The automatic's torque converter and lack of LSD help keep the car from getting out of control. As an automatic, the TL is a great choice. But for somebody who wants a stick, the 3 series and G are much better cars.

1violinist

TL automatic has a vibration problem that, to my knowledge, hasn't been resolved yet by Acura.

rotoryfan

EVERY car in this class lacks something. I'd rather lack a little in interior exterior styling (G35), than a lack a lot of heart (IS). You can get smoothness in a Camry, amenities in a Jetta, handling in a Mazda3.
The IS is a nice tease of a sports sedan. Oh, what coulda been."

I think we are getting a little spoiled...there are so many excellent cars available today. (When I was growing up, it was nothing to hear someone say they spent their Saturday fixing the car, etc.). Now, we are so spoiled, we can complain that a car has a "lack of heart" (even before seeing or test driving). Whatever that means...

callmed, what color G35 will you be getting (something to match the orange interior lighting)?

Cheers

anythngbutgm

Got that one right! Much nicer nowadays having so many excellent choices and not have to worry about the weekend warrior lifestyle, keeping the thing going. Good point.

Dr. F, the exterior styling is actually enough to keep me from looking at the G35 (sedan). Too bad, because I absolutely love the VQ (especially with 290hp on tap) and the fact that I can get that much power to the rear wheels with a manual tranny but the look is very blah IMO. It was a design that looked good for a year or so, but park it next to a TL or a new 3-er and no contest. The coupe on the other hand... Very nice. :shades:

gee35coupe

The G35. No way does that car look like $35K (when equipped). When so much of that car is corporate borrowing, the whole thing should have been a slam dunk.

lexusguy

Well, perhaps a G35 owner would be content in showing a TL or 325i the new tail lights it received for '05 For what its worth, Infiniti did a pretty good job in fixing most of the original G's interior problems for '05, and it looks A LOT more like a near-lux vehicle than it used to. It certainly is a lot better than the '99-'03 TL's interior, which looked literally ripped straight out of an accord, with a few painfully awful strips of fake wood. Acura's interiors have gotten shockingly better since the '04 TL, and are now close to challenging Lexus, but that isnt enough to make me want a frankly otherwise inferior TL over a G35.

gee35coupe

automatic form. The torque steer problem is moot. You really want to talk about the previous Infinity G-class cars? The TL's interior "problem" was moot compared to THAT car.

While you look at the G35's power advantage as such a plus...After the first 6-7 seconds, the two are pretty much the same. The TL is gonna be cheaper, more fuel efficient, and for the most part a match for the G in any aspect you'll be able to find on the real world. I mean my 130hp 1993 Civic EX hung with a 200hp+ Maxima SE on the interstate because once you hit 120 or so, there not much further you can go.

Kinda makes getting the IS350 moot since the 250 will be able to do pretty much anything the 350 will after the first few seconds. Not to mention that there are cars that are MUCH cheaper that will blow the doors off both of them

lexusguy

The G35 isnt really all that much faster than the TL. The difference between the two cars is a lot more in the handling, balance, and steering than a dash to 60. Since the rear wheels are just "along for the ride" the TL suffers from a 60\40 weight distribution, and thus cant handle like the G or a BMW.

shipo

"Since the rear wheels are just "along for the ride" the TL suffers from a 60\40 weight distribution, and thus cant handle like the G or a BMW."

Or most likely the new IS for that matter..

Best Regards,
Shipo

lexusguy

Yes that too. Provided VDIM doesn't take all the fun away, that is.

motownusa

Reviewers have complained that the VDIM is a bit too intrusive in the new GS that doesn't allow the car to be tossed around in the corners. Is it true that the VDIM system cannot be turned off in the GS ? Hopefully it can be in the new IS.

lexusguy

Yes, its true that VDIM cant be turned off in the GS. There isnt even a "reduced" switch, like there is in some M-B cars. I'm very curious to see what Lexus does with VDIM in the IS. They say its going to be "less intrusive" but theres no other info besides that.

oac

Speculations say August launch here in the NA market. Anyone else heard of this revised launch from October back a couple of months to August ? Methinks it will be great if the IS will come out earlier than anticipated, don't you ?

davidd3

I really hope so because I'm coming off-lease in mid-Sep. I would strongly consider the IS if it is available at my time of need.

Does anyone have a sense yet of what the MSRP will be on a typically equipped IS 350? Coming out of a G35, I doubt that the lower priced IS 250 will feel powerful enough to me.

giovanni1

My dealer told me they expect to receive the first cars late August/early September, whether that happens or not, only time will tell.

smh2

If lexus was smart and trying to capture the market they will undercut BMWs pricing. If they priced the IS250 below the current IS300 they could steal Acura TSX customers and 3 series customers. They need to focus on value because if they are the same price as a bimmer they'll have a hard time swaying people. I think 28000 for a is 250 would be great!

drfill

First Ting: There aren't that many TSX customers to take.

They only sell 2500 a month of so. Not enough for Lexus to justify the start of sub-$30k selling prices. They don't need volume. They're looking for qualified luxury car buyers with paper!

And my #2: 3-series buyers are used to paying $35-40k, not $25-30k.

They WILL have a hard time swaying people though with an underpowered 6 for $31k when you can get 298HP from the G, and a 2.5 for BMW nets 215HP.

Lexus has painting themselves into a strange corner. :mad:

DrFill

lexusguy

I dont think Lexus will have a problem competing with the C230\240\280 (whatever engine M-B is using in the C this week), The A4 2.0T, or the 325i. I dont think Lexus considers the TL or G as competition even though they will cost similar to a loaded IS250. The problem Lexus had originally, other than all of the interior and exterior problems, is I think Lexus made it look like the IS300 was supposed to compete with the 330i and it clearly could not do that. Now they have two engines (with more to come) one for the 325i, and one for the 330i.

chris65amg

I think that the IS250 will start arounf 28k. I really think that even though it's down on power compared to the 325i, it will sell well because as the last 325 proved, numbers don't tell the whole story. The last 325 only had 185 hp, and it was still tons of fun to drive. Perhaps we'll have to wait and see how this modestly powered car performs before we judge. As soon as the IS comes out, I'm going on a test drving rampage . I'll test the IS, TL, X Type, C Class, 325, G, A4, S40. Yep, I'll have a grand old time.
Competition is good for the consumer, and there's a lot in this field.

anythngbutgm

The added cost of RWD will bring the IS250 pricepoint to near TL levels. Based on the photos and NYIAS, the Interior of the IS shines in comparison to a comparable priced G IMO. The G's draw IMO is the drivetrain, plain and simple. The IS draw should be the overall package that comes with the drivetrain. If I have to forego some of the G35's raw power for the Lexus quality and refinement, so be it.

On a side note, my wife had a 190hp C-class K-coupe, Automatic. And before that she had a 200hp V6 Accord coupe, Automatic. Both of those cars were plenty quick, especially the Accord on the highway... So if Lexus is going to deliver a 200+ hp IS (with a manual, woohoo) I'm not expecting the thing to be a slug. But I'll be sure to stay away from the G at the track... :P

lexusguy

My guess is about 7.5 seconds to 60 for the IS250 automatic, and maybe 7.0 flat for the stick. Thats hardly class leading, but its competitive. The GS continues to outsell the M despite costing more and having less power, so I think people will pay for the refinement and luxury of an IS, even though at least the 250 will definitely be slower than a G.

chris65amg

It isn't too much of a gamble to say that the IS350 could wipe the floor with a G. Anyway, I've heard that the 6A that they're using isn't to be sneezed at. It better be better than BMW's SMG.

What about the coupe/convert. versions of the IS? Any news on those?

oac

As you and others continue to state (rightfully), the numbers won't tell the whole story about the IS250. Its gotta be the total package. With a better exterior and interior, and an unobtrusive VDIM, a 6MT, AWD, bluetooth, push-button start, XM-ready, iPod link, 6CD changer, and gobs of features, with the added reliability of a Lexus, these are the competitive points against the G or 3-series. As you also correctly noted, the underpowered GS is selling more than the higher-powered, slickier M35, so Lexus' L-Finesse direction is starting to pay dividend < 1 yr into its beginning. Portends of more to come in the future....

lexusguy

Provided Lexus can at least maintain the handling of the original IS, then I'd say yes, at least the standard G35 RWD automatic will be feeling a lot of pressure from the IS350. But, until Lexus can come out with a coupe, AWD, and a stick for the IS350, the G35 will still have several options that Lexus cant match, and unfortunately for Lexus, I'm sure the next G will be out by the time the IS has all of those things. I definitely dont expect Infiniti to give up without a fight. It will be nice for Lexus to finally be able to sell some cars besides the ES and RX.

drfill

First Ting! Lexus wants to subset the "Near-Luxury" Class into compact (A4, 325, IS, X-type) and Midsize (TL, G, CTS).

That's fine, ALMOST logical, but the consumer is always right here. They don't NEED to segment the class in ANY way. They want the best car for the money. And right now the G, 3-series, and TL are the 3 Dog Night of this territory. The IS250 would not change that!

My steamy #2: Mentioning the speed of cars like Accord and C-Hatch.

These are lighter cars, with as much, if not more, torque than this IS250. If the IS runs from 7-7.6, is it slow, not really. In this class, it is near the back of the pack. G35 can break 6 seconds. 330 and TL will not be far behind. 325 will be mid 6's.

Put it this way. If you are at a light in an IS250, and anything but an X-type 2.5 rolls up, KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE ROAD AHEAD! :P

And 3 is for the fact that the GS/M class of cars cater to more luxury car buyers than sport sedan buyers. And the sport sedan buyers aren't dropping their 5-series to buy an Infiniti, so the pickin's are pretty slim for the hard-edged M. It's not a looker, it's interior is heavy-handed (at best), and it has no customer base to sell to. The G below it is better-looking, is $10k less, and has better-resale, plus a stick available.

The IS350 will be sumpin', but only so much with no MT!

And the 2007 G will effectively counter with similar power at a lower price.

Lexus' time to pounce is now, not later. They can't act like they have this class in check, because they've already shown they don't.

The G was the Bomb! Not here to play second fiddle.

Do likewise, Lexus. Pretty ain't enough.

DrFill

lexusguy

"These are lighter cars, with as much, if not more, torque than this IS250. If the IS runs from 7-7.6, is it slow, not really. In this class, it is near the back of the pack. G35 can break 6 seconds. 330 and TL will not be far behind. 325 will be mid 6's."

Right, as I said, I dont think Lexus considers the TL and G35 as competition for the IS250. The IS250's acceleration run will be competitive with the A4 2.0T and MB C230\240\280, and maybe a bit behind the 325i. The IS350 should be able to run 0-60 in mid 5 seconds, right up there with the G35 and 330i as the fastest cars in the segment.

gee35coupe

But it ain't all that. I mean really. I mean I love my SI but I realize it ain't for everybody.

blueguydotcom

It isn't too much of a gamble to say that the IS350 could wipe the floor with a G.
It's a huge gamble. The G35, while not at the handling levels of an e46 or anywhere near an e90, still shines compared to most cars. Lexus might build a better can than the G. The proof will be in the drive.

Anyway, I've heard that the 6A that they're using isn't to be sneezed at. It better be better than BMW's SMG.

Uh, SMG is a manual (bad one but a manual nonethless). the lexus tranny is an automatic. Torque converter = junk. BTW, Audi's DSG is lightyears beyond any tranny out there right now. Exceptional. 8 ms shifts are insane.

lexusguy

Supposedly Porsche will start offering cars with DSG soon. A Cayman S with DSG, now that would be a hoot.

oac

Someone on CL posted the following stats for the IS as *official*:

IS250: 201HP @ 6400 rpm/184Ib ft @ 4800 rpm
IS350: 310HP @ 6400 rpm/280Ib ft @ 4800 rpm

Seemed like the numbers were for the Canadian version. Dunno if a US version will be any different tho'....

blueguydotcom

If those numbers on the IS350 hold true, I'll be impressed. Still remains to be seen if those are nissan style horsies or bimmer-type.

merc1

I too find the IS350's numbers impressive, but moreso for that 280lb-ft torque rating. The IS250's numbers are almost identical to the new V6 C230 (C230 - 2496cc V6 - 201hp6200rpm - 181lbft2700-5000rpm).

M

biker4

All kinds of number are being thrown around. Even after Lexus gives out the official papaer numbers you still won't know how that will translate to real street performance.

lexusguy

I think you mean "3 series-type" dont you? Nissan's 335hp 4.5L V8 is not in any way a "lesser" engine than say the one in the 545i. There's no fudging of Nissan's power numbers there. I dont think there's any on the G35 either. I think its more that the 330i was much faster than 225hp has any right to be. BMW worked some sort of powertrain voodoo there that other automakers cant match. If one BMW horse somehow equaled two of everybody else's ponies, then BMW would not need a V-10 for the M5. The old one would be chasing down 65 AMGs.

As for the IS350, thats 10ft.lbs more than the G35, but a whopping 30 horses. Impressive indeed, especially considering its a Toyota engine. My guess would be a 0-60 in the low 5s. It will definitely take the title from GS430 as the "fastest Lexus ever".

maxhonda99

Oh my god...there goes Lexus again, copying Mercedes! Now they are even copying engine output!

maxhonda99

" I think its more that the 330i was much faster than 225hp has any right to be. BMW worked some sort of powertrain voodoo there that other automakers cant match."

Isn't that the same as saying either the 330i's engine is underrated on paper or the G35's engine is overrated on paper?

oac

The 2GR engine looks like its gonna be very potent if it can do 310HP output at only 3.5L displacement. Lexus' 4.3L V8 in the LS/GS has only 290/300HP output. What can one expect the 450h output to be since it will be based on the 3.5L motor. I'd guess 375HP/380Ib ft for the GS450h.

But of course, we'd like to see the actual specs and performance of these cars in direct evaluations/testing and in comparos.... If, as it appears likely, the new IS shows up here in August, then we can expect more info trickling in from now until release. Next: what is the pricing of these cars ????

rb1

As the discussion about the upcoming 06 IS grows, the question posed by OAC at the end of his message is key. What kind of pricing are we talking about. I've had my eye on the new IS since the beginning of the year when word started to spread and more info became available on edmunds. Pricing will be the key. Alot of people are comparing the IS to the G, but it looks as if the pricing will be very different. Someone did mention earlier that the IS250 specs (hp/torque) were almost identical to the C230. Watch the price be identical as well. I was at a local Costco warehouse and saw a 05 C230 for $33k. I think that's where we'll see the IS250 start at.Furthermore, the IS350 (the car I'm looking for in either a coupe or sedan version) will come in close to the 330i and the C350. I'm thinking a $37-$39k starting and about $42-$45k will buy you a nicely equipped IS350.

I hope I'm wrong with my numbers, but both models will be priced to their respective competitors. The G35 and TL are in the middle of these two price points, and definetly do provide more value then Lexus, MBZ, and BMW. Sales may prove otherwise since people buy the big 3 names because of brand recognition, but there's no value in a $45k IS350. You can buy a nicely equipped G35 for $10k less than that, and it provides a great value to anyone who buys one.

blueguydotcom

Sales may prove otherwise since people buy the big 3 names because of brand recognition, but there's no value in a $45k IS350. You can buy a nicely equipped G35 for $10k less than that, and it provides a great value to anyone who buys one.


A 40k IS350 to me is priced 5k too much. For the car to be worth it, it's gotta come in at MSRP no more than a grand or so above the 330i euro delivery price.

I highly doubt I'll be able to get a sport package, leather-lined, xenon equipped IS350 with an MSRP below 40k - especially given Lexus' crazy expensive pricing nowadays, The GS300/430 is flat out pricey now.

oac

The GS300/430 is flat out pricey now.

And that is an important observation, BGDC. Lexus believes, rightly or wrongly, that they have achieved a level of status in the NA market that they can now command the likes of $$$ as MB or BMW commands. With 5+ years of continous victory/rank as the most reliable luxury nameplate in the US, a very successful and recognizable brand, a huge stash of $$$/Yen in the parent TMC, BMW's shooting itself in the foot with its polarizing styling, and MB reputation in the toilet on quality and reliability, who will luxury-sport sedan buyers turn to next ? Lexus wants it to be them.

They will price at the MB/BMW level for the IS. The new GS twins, though underpowered are outselling their cheaper and higher-powered Infiniti M twins. Lexus is charging premium for these cars, and they are somewhat getting it. So why won't they ask for $42K for a loaded IS350 ? There will be people lined up to buy a sleek, loaded with all gadgetry, hi-po, sedan with 310 ponies. There are just too many people with huge $$$ to burn on a car such as the IS350. Besides, the $42K price would not even touch the GS300 starting price. The bigger issue is why anyone would buy a GS300 with 245HP when for less $, they can get the IS350 with 310HP ??? I know, I won't....

blueguydotcom

So why won't they ask for $42K for a loaded IS350 ? There will be people lined up to buy a sleek, loaded with all gadgetry, hi-po, sedan with 310 ponies. There are just too many people with huge $$$ to burn on a car such as the IS350. Besides, the $42K price would not even touch the GS300 starting price. The bigger issue is why anyone would buy a GS300 with 245HP when for less $, they can get the IS350 with 310HP ??? I know, I won't....

Size? Not a speed racer and want the soft luxury of the GS?

lexusguy

A TL is like what? $34K? A fully loaded G35 with NAV costs around $37K. My guess for the IS is 29-34 for the IS250, and 35-40 for the IS350. The convertible may hit as high as $45K.

oac

IS350RWD
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BE262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=BE262T&year=2006

IS250 RWD
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/BK262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=BK262T&year=2006

IS250 AWD
http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience/en/home/vehicles/specs/CK262T2006/specs_features.jsp?- model=CK262T&year=2006

Let the tests begin....

blueguydotcom

So if the estimates of 35k starting hold true, the car still comes without moonroof (says it's optional) and xenons (halogens are standard). So those two features and a sport package would put the car up around 38k...maybe more?

They need to release more info,

Engine sounds spectacular (as long as it's not as rough as nissan's VQ). How long before Nissan bumps the G35's power to 315? rofl I'm guessing the 2006 model will see that change.

Maybe some word on the 330i getting more power too? That'd be yummy.

lexusguy

"Engine sounds spectacular (as long as it's not as rough as nissan's VQ). How long before Nissan bumps the G35's power to 315? rofl I'm guessing the 2006 model will see that change."

Nissan may be in second place for a little while. The G35 6MT can manage 298hp now, but torque is down 10ft.lbs compared to the automatic to 260ft.lbs. I dont think Nissan can manage to beat the IS350's horsepower and torque rating with the current version of the VQ. (Now that it has the Mustang GT to contend with, I think if Nissan could squeeze more than 300hp out of the engine in the 350Z Anniversary, they would have). The GT-R is rumored to be using a new 4.0L, turbocharged version of Nissan's venerable V6, but I dont think the standard G35 will be getting a normally aspirated version of that engine until its redesign.

cybersol

I think some people here might have unrealistic expectations about what the MSRP pricing for the new IS will be. I know this is probably just enthusiasm and optimistic hope that lexus will practically give these away. I wouldn't count on it. Lexus seems to be under the impression that they have some brand cachet and pricing power these days (and they are probably right).

Here are the numbers for the current price landscape to start:

Configurations (the way I wanted them... ha!)
1) Base Automatic with Metallic Paint
2) Add Leather, Moonroof, Power Seats, Rear Spoiler
3) Maxxed Out

Current Car
IS300 1) 31650 2) 33750 3) 38430

Competition
325i 1) 32750 2) 35555 3) 47215
330i 1) 38745 2) 40560 3) 50515
C240 1) 35250 2) 39540 3) 45560
C320 1) 40550 2) 44240 3) 49707
G35 1) 31610 2) 33910 3) 38740
TL 1) 33670 2) 34070 3) 36070

Here are the higher models that put somewhat of an upper limit on pricing:

Up-market Comparison
GS300 1) 43550
530i 1) 48470

A loaded lower car probably can't be more than 2k above these prices and succeed.

So my guess for what Lexus will charge for the new IS in comparable configurations are as follows:

IS250 1) 30500 2) 33000 3) 39500
IS350 1) 36500 2) 38000 3) 44500

So, if you want an IS350 with moonroof, nav, and spoiler, then you are talking about 40k MSRP.

Enjoy, cybersol

biker4

The only thing that is somewhat new is a few details about the engine. That 12:1 compression ratio on the 2.5V6 seems pretty high considering the rather weak 201 HP output. There's a lot of TBDs in there still.

Also, the configuration is bound to be different in the US - there's no way those will be standard wheel sizes in the US. The IS350 has to come with 18s standard - like the one on the show circuit. The IS250 should come with 17s standard and 18s as an option (sport package?). The fact that they are "performance summer" tires may hint as to the capabilities (or at least intention) of the car. How many Lexus owners will switch to winter tires? I see lots of folks complaining and Lexus needing to offer all seasons on the IS250 (which they are on the IS350).

biker4

The pricing scheme for the IS may follow that of the GS - make the MSRP pretty high but the invoice fairly low to give dealers lots of leaway in actual pricing. The invoice on the GS300 is LOWER than the M35 yet the MSRP is much higher. Of course the first few months this will be meanigless since all will be sold at sticker.

30K sticker for the base IS250 seems like a pretty good guess.