Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

dewey

Correct me if I am mistaken, but I read in a British Mag that the IS350 will not be available in Europe. The IS250 will be available. Also a diesel IS is available in Europe to counter the popularity of theBMW320d. Europeans are content without a IS350. Unlike Europeans, N. Americans are obsessed with hp.

There are no manual transmission BMW M5s in Europe. N. Americans created a huge stink about BMW not having a manual M5, so BMW listened and made one availabe. Europeans are quite indifferent about the manual option.

So using European tastes to determine our tastes in North America could be detrimental to sales for any car manufacturer.

dewey

High gas prices may make us more European. Just heard BMW and Honda will introduce diesels here in N. America.

Who knows maybe Lexus USA may make a surprise anouncement about adiesel IS(although on this side of the Ocean we cant get enough of Toyota hybrids, so maybe not)

oac

Are BMWs, MBs and other VWs response to Toyota's hybrid. Will the diesel strategy work ? I guess we'll see. But I don't expect the IS220d here in NA anytime soon. Conversely, I'd expect an IS450h on our shores within a couple of years.

The claim that Europe doesn't much care for an M5 with manual tranny is surprising. I'd have guessed the opposite. With high gas prices, narrower roads, and many small-engined outputs, you'd expect stick shifts to be prevalent, especially in cars designed purposely for speed and sport. No ?

dewey

Just to make one point clear:

The fact that Europeans are gaining interest in automatics should not be considered proof that manuals in performance cars are irrelevent. I think we N. Americans are more particular as consumers about what a performance car should be than Europeans. That is why BMW is currently selling us mt M5s and Lexus will sell us mt IS350 models next year(would anyone like to make a bet)

gee35coupe

I'm saying that the ultimate in control isn't the manual. It may FEEL like you are in control, but obviously a well-engineered electronically controlled automatic will actually be the better choice if you actually want to control the car.

I too prefer the manual. I'm perfectly happy with the fact that the manual will be on the lower tier vehicle. But I can also see the advantages of the tiptronic type automatics with electronic control offering better and more consistent actual control of the vehicle than I ever could.

Not to mention the fact that from a marketing standpoint Lexus would do just fine without it. Especially in the U.S. I mean losing the 20 to 25 percent of the people here won't really matter. Besides when it comes to high performance sedans, the manual transmissioned choices are as few and far between as the sedans themselves.

nippononly

there is an article in Autoweek this week about Toyota's future plans for hybrids, which are extensive as you might imagine. However, they do NOT include a hybrid IS at the present time. The article specifically mentions the GS460H that will be available possibly next year, and that much further out (say, some time before 2010) there will be an LS600H and a hybrid ES, but the only other models listed are Toyota-branded models.

Kirstie_H

A bunch of posts that were only very marginally related to the upcoming IS have been deleted.

The longevity of this discussion depends on your ability/willingness to stay on-topic.

wco81

Actually, off-topic or posts that wander away from the original post tend to make threads a lot longer than it otherwise would have been.

That's the case with most discussions on the Internet, whetehr on web forums or USENET.

And in real life, discussions last longer as the subject moves around, because there is only so many things which can be said on any subject before things start to get repeated.

oac

..The article specifically mentions the GS460H that will be available possibly next year....

You mean GS450h, correct ? Cos there is no 460h setup in Lexus' plans. And the magazine mentions no word about an IS hybrid. I'd take all these with a grain of salt. Lexus has announced a hybrid for every single release. And why not have a hybrid for their entry lux class - the IS - or isn't this car worthy to save on gas too ? Another article is speculating an IS500 to go against the M3, yet we hear no plans from Lexus to put a V8 in the new IS. I guess we'll have lots of time to wait to verify which of these rumors come to pass.

wale_bate1

Any auto v. manual discussion, even with its offshoots and wanderings, is germane to the IS topic. Can't be otherwise. Part of what shot the pinky toe off the sedan's first year was that lack of stick availability.

So all y'all enjoy. I'm out until we're able to whine and moan and puff and blow about all aspects of the car, and why we feel the way we do...

Kirstie_H

We strive for quality over quantity. No new member wants to read through a bunch of manual v automatic posts, guaranteed. We have a general manual transmission discussion (The Future Of The Manual Transmission), and that's where the conversation belongs. Whether a particular member personally believes the conversation is on-topic is irrelevant. It's not.

nippononly

yup, you're right - fast typing is to blame. The GS450H is next year's Lexus hybrid. Toyota has said that ultimately it hopes to offer 2/3 of its models (among all three brands) as hybrids, so that leaves room for some not to be hybrid, and perhaps the IS is one of them. It wouldn't surprise me - they are leaning away from their smallest models in deciding what to hybridize - witness the fact that there are no plans to build a hybrid Corolla. And the IS is the smallest Lexus...or is the smallest the SC? Toss-up. I bet the SC will get a hybrid version though, since it shares the LS' powertrain and that model is definitely going to have a hybrid version.

dewey

"No new member wants to read through a bunch of manual v automatic posts"

OK, so basically you are saying transmissions are irrelevent in the purchase of an IS. Based on prior discussions, I beg to differ! It is not only relevent but also a deal maker/breaker! And not only for a few!!!

Anyway may the discussions continue on all pre-approved topics on the IS, whatever those selected topics are?

Sayonara!!

Kirstie_H

Please see my post from, oh, about a month ago.
kirstie_h, "The Next Lexus IS!" #2067, 4 Apr 2005 12:35 pm

The subject has been beaten to death - unless there is brand new information, it's been sufficiently covered. Conversation in this topic should be directly related to the IS.

oac

Please permit more flexibility. I know we tend to go round in circles, but at least it provides a forum to get things off your chest, and maybe learn something new as well. Questions on SMG, DSG, manumatics, tiptronics, etc have been asked and answered here. I have learnt a thing or two even though it had nothing to with the new IS. Ditto paddle shifters on F1 cars.... Isn't that part of the reason Edmund's exist ?

Just mho....

srod

Wow. There have been about 4 users relentlessly hammering the lack of MT. We get the point already!

Thanks Kirstie for trying to scrap their broken record. Let's get on to other aspects of the new IS. I realize it's early and there's not yet alot known. But until we know more, minimal discussion would be better than this monotonous MT whining.

Thank you, thank you, thank you Kirstie!!!

rotoryfan

Thank you Kirstie!

Any guesstimates about increased interior space - as compared to the current IS300 - since the new IS will be about 3" taller and about 3 1/2" inches wider (exterior dimensions)? Is the current IS considered a compact or sub-compact (in the formal ratings)?

Any opinions about Lexus paint colors or quality and will the new GS300 colors possibly be the choices?

Cheers

fredmcmurray

Or most important of all, we will get two decent sized cupholders in the front seat? :confuse:

rotoryfan

....always at least one aerospace engineer in the crowd.

:P

stickguy

Frm the pictures, just go sit in a GS, and take away a couple inches here/there, and you have the IS interior.

The tight quarters was one of the reasons I passed on the IS300 a few years back. I was too cramped up in the front seat, never mind the back.

Great fun to drive though.

kyfdx

Don't argue with the hosts...

oac

Sat in the new GS yesterday. Cramped... cramped... cramped... in the back. Try to get in the back seat and your head smacks right on the door frame. Why ? The back seat sits too high off the chassis, preventing ease of entry. Of course, it doesn't help that it is RWD with the tranny assembly taking up more room in the back. I am very dissappointed in Lexus on this, for such a beautiful car. WHen I test drove back in February, I never sat back there and didn't realise how cramped the back seat was.... Holy cow !I sure hope the IS is not that cramped. I sure hope Lexus don't baby-up the interior of the IS after the cramped GS. That will be sad... and definitely put me OUT of the IS market for good, and over to the Bimmer.

stickguy

That's true. When I sat in the back of the GS, my head was up in the roof, behind the window. Very similar to the Volvo S40/S60. I did have plenty of leg and elbow room IIRC, and the seat was comfy enough.

But, I'm 6' and would never ride in the back. The usual passengers are my kids, the tallest of which just broke 5'. Yes, they will grow, but for the foreseeable future, it should be fine.

Heck, I have them riding around in the back seat of a 2 door hatch (Scion tC) now, so any 4 door should be an improvement!

Anyway, good chance that much of the size difference of the IS will come out of the rump maybe?

I hate all the speculation (room/performance/etc) based on a few pictures. Really need to get these into the real world, or at least the car magazines!

rotoryfan

stickguy, thanks for the input.

I decided to look up the official figures: (government figures; "PASSENGER VOLUME" in cubic feet):

current IS (2005) - 89
GS300 (2005) - 100

For comparison:
BMW 530 - 99
330 - 91
TL - 98
3 series and IS are consider compact cars. GS and 5 series are considered mid-size.

Cheers

blueguydotcom

In my experience the passenger volume metric is pretty misleading. My friend's 4runner has far more cubic space than another friend's Mazda3, yet I'd rather ride in the back of her Mazda3 than the 4Runner. The amount of usable space is different, regardless of the metrics. I can sit in her MZ3 all day but within 5 minutes in a 4Runner's backseat I'm in serious physical pain.

nippononly

the newer cars are getting those sloping roofs like the CLS - for the sake of style they are reducing headroom for back seat passengers. It is irritating in a midsize sedan like the GS. I hope the next IS stays technically a compact.

drfill

Have to disagree dur.

I (at 6'4") fit in the 4Runner back seat (barely).

Couldn't even get INTO the MZ3 seat, with the seats all the way back.

Never sat in the IS back seat, and see no reason to.

As the driver, won't spend any time there!

If passengers don't like it, I'll get a roof rack. Plenty of headroom!

DrFill

stickguy

is another reason I like compact wagon/hatches (sprotcross, BMWit). Vastly better headroom in the rear seat, and much more open feeling.

rotoryfan

Just to be clear - the "passenger volume" numbers in my last post do NOT include cargo space (the numbers were available, I just did not include them). The cargo spaces (trunk space of the cars) ranged from 10-13 cubic feet, approximately.

The dividing line between compact to mid-size was 109 cubic feet; 109 is the lowest volume for a mid-size car (109 INCLUDES trunk/cargo space) .

blueguydotcom

I (at 6'4") fit in the 4Runner back seat (barely).

Couldn't even get INTO the MZ3 seat, with the seats all the way back.

I'm 5'7" and I can't fit in the back of a 4runner. I'm in misery the moment I'm back there as seat sits on the floor and the front seats don't have toe space - thus there's no where for my legs to go.

stickguy

volume is one misleading stat. You really have to test sit to see what yo ucan live with. It really depends on where they put the cubes, not how many there are!

rb1

I know that we've been discussing the issue about having or not having a manual in the upcoming IS and also about size, but I'm curious to know some additional information about the IS coupe that is scheduled to come out sometime in 2006. I'm curious if anyone out there knows whether or not the Lexus LF-C shown at the New York Auto Show is going to be the new IS coupe or is it going to be the replacement for the lackluster Lexus SC430. The small tid bits I saw on the car indicated a 300 horsepower car with a retractable hard top that could be set to 4 different settings, such as coupe, roadster, targa, and convertible. With that said, I think that the description seems to good to be true of a low $40k car. Anybody heard anything about the upcoming coupe. I do have my eye on the IS sedan, but the true sportiness lies in a 2 door and not a 4 door.

lexusguy

The LF-C is not an exact representation of what the IS350 retractable hardtop will be, but its meant to at least give you an idea. The front has plenty of cues that made it into the production sedan, but the back is a little wierd. I would definitely expect some changes there. It is not going to replace the SC430. Lexus' most direct competitor is Mercedes Benz. The SC430 competes with the CLK500 and SL500 (at least in Lexus' mind anyway). This new IS retractable top will compete with the SLK350, as well as the A4 cabrio, the 3 series coupe and convertible, etc. Lexus has a lot of big introductions lined up for '07 already, so the freshened SC may not show until '08. I would expect it to become the SC460 with some styling tweaks. Unfortunately an all new SC may not be around until 2009 or so. I hope that it becomes more than the "super Camry Solara" that it is now.

pearl

First, that it will have a "friendlier footwell" than the GS. The latter seems to crowd the left foot. Second, that it will have a larger trunk opening and a fold-down rear seat (at least as an option). Doubt if either will happen, but IMO would be nice features on this car.

drfill

While not the Sporting GT the Benz SL is, it is posh. And sales have shown Lexus has pegged the market right with this car.

Outselling Caddy XLR 3:1, it offers a hradtop the CLK can't, and a value not even attempted by the SL.

The IS convertible will be portly! It's already 3450 with a 2.5L and manual tranny!

How much will it weigh with a real engine, power hardtop, Automatic ( you think the best model will get a stick?), and chassis reinforcements? A V8 maybe mandatory!

DrFill

lexusguy

Well, the XLR is largely a market failure. While the SC430 walks all over the old 300\400 coupe in sales, which I think in the last year couldnt even manage 1,000 cars combined, it still pales compared to the CLK and SL. The problem I have with the SC430 is that its ugly, its too small, and it drives like an ES330.

I wouldnt count on a V8 for the IS. If the GS300 can get away with 245hp, I think the IS350 drop top will do fine.

merc1

I think that by the time the next SC shows up Lexus will take it further upmarket to truly compete with the SL because that value that you speak of isn't so much as the SL just being a better car. You get what you pay for. The SC430 can't match the true 4-seater versatility or dynamics of the CLK either. If they do come out with an IS convertible it'll be in the same market postion the current SC is in, trying to compete with true roadsters like the SLK and 4-seater "cabriolets" like the A4/3-Series. I guess that makes it a attractive choice in both segments like the SC is now, but hardly a leader in either segment. The XLR is just simply overpriced.

M

lexusguy

Yeah the SC definitely needs to grow and it needs more power to really compete with the 645Ci and SL500. The '07 XK8\R will also put more pressure on it.

drfill

The SC has created it's own market.

The power and convertibliity of an SL. A good step up from the SLK. Better looking and better features than a CLK. Higher quality than all 3. All for a fair price! The SC isn't here to "compete" with SL, 645, or anyone else. It only lacks handling, which I wouldn't pay Mercedes another $25k for, although the SL is prettier. :shades:

I called the XLR, down to the resistance to $10k rebates! A day late, and a few thousand $$ overdrawn!! :P

The IS conv will be much more like the SLK, with handling included!!

DrFill

lexusguy

Not quite. If any Lexus car owns its own segment, its the ES330. I dont think the SC430 is better looking than anything, certainly not the CLK500. What features does it have that you cant get on a CLK500 other than the hardtop? To me it looks like a bloated Audi TT. Lexus themselves said that they benchmarked the XK8 when they designed the SC430, so that is at least one direct competitor. They got most of it right, except the XK8 is an attractive car. Oh, and I sincerely hope who ever designed those awful wheels was fired, and is never allowed to work in the auto industry again.

merc1

Naturally I'd have to disagree with that also. Handling, styling, roll over protection and more rigid body are but a few things the SL has over the SC. Styling, well thats a personal thing and to me the SC430 isn't in the same league as the CLK500 and SL imo. The SC didn't create a market when the CLK has been there since 1999. I'll give Lexus credit for at least trying to offer a bargain priced SL hardtop and all, but the SC needs to lose the useless rear seats and/or become a true 4-seat CLK competitor and actually allow people to use those 2 extra seats. Either way it still loses out to even a Cadillac in driving dynamics.

Now an IS convertible sounds good to me, if they keep the styling as good as the sedan's appears to be so far. I doubt that a V8 will be used though.

M

mikegiller

What are some of your favourite colours that you would like to see on the new IS 350. I'm hoping to see a bright, intense, red... like the red that was offered on the MKIII Supra (like the G35 coupe toreador red except MUCH better... I guess the SC 430 red), maybe an orangey yellow like on the lamborghini gallardo, a bright, deep blue, and a nice mettalic tan. Any unordinary/uncommon colours anyone wants to see on the new IS?

How bout leather tones? One complaint I have with Lexus is the lack of selection of different tones of leather. Offer a saddle tan leather like they have in the SC in the new IS. How about some other colours of leather. Anybody with me on this?

Heres a photoshop job I did with the new IS. I like this colour although whne I buy the new IS in a few years I would probably get a dark silver or red; maybe even a bright blue.

lexusguy

looks like you've got a linking problem there.

mikegiller

What do I need to do to make it work? I can see it just fine. Please let me know; I'm relatively new to Edmunds.

lexusguy

You can see it because the picture is locally on your computer, probably in your browser cache. Make sure the image is hosted properly. Traditional "img src" html code should work. If its still not working, just put in a url for the picture.

mikegiller

What are some of your favourite colours that you would like to see on the new IS 350. I'm hoping to see a bright, intense, red... like the red that was offered on the MKIII Supra (like the G35 coupe toreador red except MUCH better... I guess the SC 430 red), maybe an orangey yellow like on the lamborghini gallardo, a bright, deep blue, and a nice mettalic tan. Any unordinary/uncommon colours anyone wants to see on the new IS?

How bout leather tones? One complaint I have with Lexus is the lack of selection of different tones of leather. Offer a saddle tan leather like they have in the SC in the new IS. How about some other colours of leather. Anybody with me on this?

Heres a photoshop job I did with the new IS. I like this colour although whne I buy the new IS in a few years I would probably get a dark silver or red; maybe even a bright blue.

DON'T TRY AND TELL ME THIS IS NOT AN ATTRACTIVE CAR...DON'T!! :P

drfill

School Bus Yella!

That's......Stylin'! :P

DrFill

rotoryfan

Thanks for taking the time with photoshop...it is nice to see the car in different colors. BTW, there are pics of an IS in "Glasier blue" (a GS color) out on the net (I would have posted it here but had difficulity with the link).

The IS might look very good in the deep red available on the current Aston Martin. Or one of the lighter grey-green colors.

I have read the opinion that "certain cars look best in certain colors" - I am not sure what that color is for the IS... maybe it is just a personal taste thing or maybe certain colors do accentuate the "scuptured" effect of a car's lines. I don't know...

Cheers

mikegiller

...on interior colours... a topic nobody has touched on yet... any unique colours like cherry red or blue people would like to see in the IS maybe even an amber brown.

lexusguy

The only Lexus ever to come with a truly out there interior was the SC430 pace car. I wouldnt expect much more than the usual tan\gray\black offerings in the IS.