Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

dewey

Great posts wale and merc1,

you both covered the topic of sport vs. lux quite well and there is little to add. But since I am here, what the heck!

IMO, the key is active versus passive driving(I am not trying to sound like a VW ad).

What do I mean by passive?

I define passive technologies as the Lexus VSC system , BMW's Active Front Steering, all automatic transmissions and cruise control. All these technologies are very good at reducing the "sport feel" of a car! All these technologies are very good at making drivers as passive as passengers.

A non-technology sport hindrance are leather seats. KEEP IT CLOTH PLEASE!(and no I am not from a religous group that reveres cows). Any kind of non-functional luxury has no purpose whatsoever in any sport sedan(yes I am a closet-radical).

blueguydotcom

A non-technology sport hindrance are leather seats. KEEP IT CLOTH PLEASE!(

Yeah those leather seats sure make it tough to drive a Ferrari or a Porsche. :surprise:

wale_bate1

Ya know, I'm okay with all those technologies provided I can choose the ones I want and/or the default mode is "OFF".

We disagree on one item, Dewey, even though I will gladly champion your cause as a mandatory no cost option: real sports cars, historically, have dead cow, in my book. Back far enough, the dead cow even kept the hood closed! ;-]

We disagree to a point on ATs in that I'm personally OK with a decent slushbox programmed and pressurized the right way, but I soundly agree that the MT model should be the basis of the car's pedigree and demeanor.

lexusguy

I agree that cloth seats are taking things just a bit too far. It just wouldnt feel like a luxury car to me. Cloth would seem a lot more appropriate in the outgoing IS300 than the new car.

SMGs, provided they are done well, can be just as fun to drive as a regular stick, at least IMO. Audi really nailed it with the DSG, its a brilliant gearbox. The one in the Z4, on the other hand, sucks. Its very interesting to see BMW playing catch up with Audi. Porsche is going to start offering the DSG soon, that should be some fun right there. Cayman S with DSG, yes I'll take one, thank you.

stickguy

that Mazdaspeed3 could fill the bill for those of us who would like a new sportcross. Fast, good handling, tidy size. No, not "luxurious" like a Lexus, but the IS300 isn't either.

Hatch+HP+manual tranny=FUN and useful.

Plus, loaded up should be less than 25K. Certainly will give the A3 a run for it's money.

Now this could get me to pry open the old wallet, but I still want to see the IS250, but I still really want a hatch..

dewey

"that Mazdaspeed3 could fill the bill for those of us who would like a new sportcross."

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! As long as it is AWD it would fit the bill for many, including myself.

kyfdx

I don't know.. a Mazda 3S hatch is about $21K loaded up now, with manual tranny... Add $1800 for AWD and $4K for the turbo engine and requisite upgrades, and I think you will be pushing $27K.. (basing this off the increase for the Mspeed Miata). Not sure what actual selling price will be.. you can find leftover '04 Mspeed Miatas for $7K off MSRP.

But, that will be much cheaper than a V50 T5 (or whatever they call the little "hot" Volvo wagon...

regards,
kyfdx

blueguydotcom

It appears Lexus and BMW need to get small, luxurious sport wagons into the mix soon. Audi and Mazda are gonna take that market if Lexus doesn't smell what's cookin'.

wale_bate1

To Dewey's point, I think, though, any sporting car should really be manual first and slushbox as a compromise, rather than the other way round. I believe that to my bones, even though I'll buy the AT, assuming it doesn't suck! And if it sucks, I'll pick another car!

DSG is the future, IMO, even of the mainstream manual. But there is no excuse for Bimmer's SMG, if that review of the Z4 is even half correct! Is the M's SMG the same animal?

On cloth, I think it should be an option in any car personally. I'm not going to buy it, but it can, and has been in the past, every bit as luxurious as leather!

dewey

I would like to correct my previous post.

A Mazda 3s would be compelling based on:

1)PRICE
2)Reliability---the 6 cyl Mazda6 is not as reliable as Audi A4 or VW Passat, based on the latest Consumer Reports

kyfdx

The M has a different SMG... supposedly, much better.. I've never driven either one...

The DSG is intriguing... I'd rather have a stick, but I am maritally challenged, so even though my car doesn't have to be an automatic, it sure simplifies things..

BMW really needs to bring over the 125i and 130i, no matter what the body style.. If the A3 can sell for over $30K, loaded up, that leaves plenty of room for BMW to make money on the 1-series..

Oh yeah... I hear Lexus is going to build a new IS.. that should be interesting, also..

regards,
kyfdx

wale_bate1

Tee hee.

Rumor mill KY, rumor mill...

lexusguy

Speaking of which, I'd like to see an S40R. The T5 is nice, but it makes just 218hp, less than the otherwise lame 9-2x. The 300hp 2.5L turbo 5 from the S60R in that car would be great.

stickguy

how about a V50 R?

I drove an S60R once. It was a hoot.

lexusguy

That too. Volvo offers a V70R (or at least they did, I cant remember if they still do) so I think theres at least a possibility.

alegria1

This is my firstpost. Please bear with me. Rotaryfan, why would you trade your TL for an IS? I have a deposit on a TL currently. It will arrive 4/28. I'm in love with the options. I'm a true eyecandy person and in that regard it's not making my heart race. I have a certain price range and it meets my pursestrings with a little to spare. I've been driving a 93 SC300 for 9 yrs. Love Lexus but ES330, too sedate. Just discovered this car yesterday when I got my Lexus magazine. Now I feel I want to get my deposit back. Please tell me all that you don't like about your TL. It's Consumer Report's Top Pick. Great buy for the money - never seen so many bells and whistles (ordered navi). I still want peoples head turning when I drive down the street. I think IS will do that.

blueguydotcom

I still want peoples head turning when I drive down the street. I think IS will do that.

:confuse: It's a car, not a mating signal.

rotoryfan

This is my firstpost. Please bear with me. Rotaryfan, why would you trade your TL for an IS? I have a deposit on a TL currently. It will arrive 4/28. I'm in love with the options. I'm a true eyecandy person and in that regard it's not making my heart race. I have a certain price range and it meets my pursestrings with a little to spare. I've been driving a 93 SC300 for 9 yrs. Love Lexus but ES330, too sedate. Just discovered this car yesterday when I got my Lexus magazine. Now I feel I want to get my deposit back. Please tell me all that you don't like about your TL. It's Consumer Report's Top Pick. Great buy for the money - never seen so many bells and whistles (ordered navi). I still want peoples head turning when I drive down the street. I think IS will do that.

alegria1 - I have an 03 TL (not the new styling, but classic good looks IMO). Here is my situation: I have two cars and I am trying to get down to one (for various reasons, garage space being one). The two cars are the TL and a Mazda RX-8. I have the RX-8 for weekend fun/sportyness (the handling is OUTSTANDING, short throw shifter, etc., etc. (and because of sentiment - I had a '82 RX-7 way back when).

Hoping to find a (reasonable) compromise car with (something like) the driving fun of the 8 and the long-distance highway cruise/relaxed luxury appointments of the TL. Just sure it is possible to find one car that makes a reasonable compromise...but I am looking and the new IS300 caught my eye...waiting for reviews/more info. Trying to find one car to (reasonably) meet the attributes of both the TL and RX-8 will probably be tough. (and good MPG would be a bonus.)

I am sure you will be happy with you '05 TL - other than front wheel drive, I see no negatives (and front wheel drive is a plus in snow country). I am sure you have read the reviews.

Hope that answers your question. Welcome to the forum. Cheers

lexusguy

The TL is a great car, and its a massive upgrade over the old car both inside and out (especially inside, the old one was painfully cost cut. Probably the worst fake wood I've seen in an import). Handling will also be a significant upgrade from the SC. The only problem with the TL is that its only good with the automatic. With the stick, its torque steer city. That, and you can only get the good brakes with the MT and A-sepc package. The standard brakes are carry overs from the old car, and are mediocre at best.

I would also suggest considering a G35.

rotoryfan

This is my firstpost. Please bear with me. Rotaryfan, why would you trade your TL for an IS? I have a deposit on a TL currently. It will arrive 4/28. I'm in love with the options. I'm a true eyecandy person and in that regard it's not making my heart race. I have a certain price range and it meets my pursestrings with a little to spare.

alegria1 - you said the TL is not "making your heart race". If you have doubts, it would not hurt to wait 5-6 months and see the IS250...it should be in roughly the same price range (<35K).

I would want to be very excited (i.e. excitement meter pegged) before committing to a new car purchase (although my first new car was the '03 TL, at the tender age of 43 -- I previously bought used cars).

If your situation allows, waiting/doing more research to be sure is never a bad thing. If you do decide to wait, maybe you could use the time to prioritize what YOU want in a car (looks, reliability, etc.). No one on this forum or the editors of the car mags will have to live with your decision - it comes down to meeting YOUR needs or wants (some combination of cosmetic and practical).

Cheers

drfill

Algeria wants a TL, but is now looking for a REASON to wait for the IS.

Is Lexus giving him a reason?

A TL will top out at $35k, and offer 270HP and more room. But it has warts like FWD and torque steer. I'm puzzled by the extremely linear styling. Looks like a paper airplane to me.

G35 removes warts calls torque steer and FWD, even offers AWD! Plus adds up to 28 more HP, and you can cut the price on a TL a couple of grand. That comes out of the interior materials and styling, but is made up for in value and driving dynamics. Better looking, too, IMO.

The IS250 will offer anywhere from 201-208HP. GREAT Std features list. Don't really need any of the options but a roof. Great style. MT. But it gives up room and cargo space, and there is that HUGE power deficit, while weighing not much less than the competition (80-100lbs.?)

The 350 is a strange example of overkill. It may overpower the GS430! But it's power advantages will be sapped by a computer virus we know as The Automatic. And it will cost more than a TL or G (or even 330). Speculation. $37-8k.

Alegria

I don't know if you are sold on exterior styling, interior, power, or handling. But I'd pass on the IS until Lexus resets it for a mid-gen facelift. This current strategy seems like a major hedge. They aren't desperate enough for success on this one.

Why? I have no idea. I'd get a G in this class. Power, upper-crust handle, roomy, an EMPOWERED MT, AWD, good price, strong resale. Hate the amber guages, though. The Lexus is prettier, but it needs a couple years to bake 'til it's done.

DrFill

oac

Except for DrFill and wale_, many of the posts here are so far off-topic..... Can we get back to the IS puleaze....

BTW, Merc1 and Wale and Dewey, muchos gracias for the excellent posts defining sport and luxury. Good ones....

Say, doesn;t the paddle shifter in the IS350/6AT not patterned after F1 racing ? Anyone here ever driven a car with a paddle shifter ? Should please let us know how it drives v stick.

lexusguy

There is a HUGE difference between a "paddle-shifted automatic" and a real SMG. I've driven three SMGs, the Maserati Cambiocorsa, the Audi DSG, and the BMW (Z4, not M3 which is supposedly better).

SMGs done right, like the DSG and Cambiocorsa, are very much like a stick. The DSG is thus far the best one I've driven, the Cambiocorsa is good but its a bit jumpy when downshifting. A paddle shifted automatic on the other hand is exactly the same as having +\- on the console. You are just telling the autobox what to do (until it usually decides you dont actually know what you're doing a few hundred revs short of red) and shifts for itself anyway. The Infiniti's rev matching manu-matic is probably one of the best ones I've driven, but I'm pretty sure that the IS will not have that feature.

wco81

Does the SMG or DSG have clutches? I thought the VW/Audi models had paddle shifters too?

What is Tiptronic? What is Steptronic?

Are these all marketing names for similar or same mechanical concepts?

wale_bate1

SMGs and DSG have clutches. A typical SMG has a clutch setup similar to a conventional manual, except (correct me if I'm wrong here LG) that is is activated by hydraulics controoled by an electronic program. The DSG has two clutches, also electronically controlled. A gear is always "pre-selected" or engaged on each of the shafts, and the clutches switch off load duty almost instaneously.

I'm doing a piss-poor job explaining here, so someone else can fill in the blanks.

Tiptronic and Steptronic are typical manumatics that use a torque converter, but allow for electronic control of gear selection.

brightness04

I've noticed over the years that German cars, MBs and BMWs in particular thump or even clomp over the pavement like they're trying press the pavement flat. This was especially the case with older MBs. The only Japanese cars I've noticed this with are Infinitis. Now though in BMWs and Mercedes they're much quieter than they used to be so this isn't as noticeable as before. I'm not saying that this is a negative thing by any means it only adds to the sportiness of the car and its a byproduct of a sporty suspension design imo.

And lack of acoustic tuning, more importantly. You can get that thomp/clomp with most domestic $20k cars nowadays, especially the GM Epsilon platform cars, like the Chevy Malibu. The sound comes from a rigid unibody combined with complete lack of attention to acoustics: the suspension geometry design never gave any consideration to harmonic resonance, and the underbody sound insulation is poor.

stickguy

pretty good job IMO. DSG and SMG can be thought of as manuals with fancy automatic clutches (no left leg needed). Steptronic and Tiptronic are traditional auto trannys, torques converter and all, that happen to have a mode where you can pick the gear to be in (mostly).

Of course, my wife's Omni had the same thing. You just pulled the gear shift down into L or 2 if you wanted a lower gear, and it stayed there until you moved the lever. No electronics on that baby!

stickguy

Be careful not to mix up the choices. The AWD version of the G35, and I believe the BMW also, only come with the automatic. No stick available.

So, if you want AWD, you are getting an AT, at least on the otherwise RWD models.

Don't sell the 250 too short until yo drive it. I had a Maxima SE 5 speed (a '99), with the 3.0 engine. Put our 190hp IIRC, and was considered a very quick car (I think it ran 0-60 under 7). Too much power for the front wheels of course. Not sure about the weight, but probably within a few hundred pounds of the I250.

Yes, some people require more HP (even if many will never use it). I'm sure that some people will insist the 350 is a dog, and it has to have the 4.3 v8. I could probably be perfectly satisfied with the output of the 250, especially with the stick, and hopefully it will get reasonable gas mileage too.

But, if you want a stick and 270hp, buy a G35.

anythngbutgm

325xi and 330xi are available with a stick. From what I have heard though is the AWD system in the Bimmer is kind of Frankenstein'd on to a 3 series. It really throws off the balance of the car. But you're correct that a manual with AWD is not common, which is unfortunate for those of us who would like to by an AWD V6/manual other than a Bimmer or Audi

shipo

So far at least, BMW has made no such distinctions between the number of driven wheels and what type of transmission it is that connects said wheels to the engine. For the "xi" version of the new E90 3-Series, I believe that I've read somewhere in the various official bits released by BMW that AWD and three pedals can be had together, however, I have heard rumors (as yet unconfirmed) that if you want an E60 5-Series with AWD, it must be configured as an automatic.

Best Regards,
Shipo

stickguy

I never looked closely, but I know that I have never seen a Xi/stick BMW combo. Maybe it's one of those mythical creatures that only exists in the brochure.

wale_bate1

I hate those.

When I brought home the silver/black SportCross, I had 'bout exhausted myself looking for one in green with ivory leather interior.

Mythical creature indeed.

Of course you can order anything in the book. Next time out, I plan to. A quick glance at the A3 configurator confirms that the two colors that intrigue me on that beastie will not be on dealer's lots, but will only be available on customer-ordered cars.

I'm assuming a base IS250 will be the same kind of creature...

fredmcmurray

Trying to custom order an IS was the one thing that nearly soured me on the brand all together. The only dealer I could find that would even talk to me about ordering one the way I wanted it was 60 miles away and wanted full MSRP for the privilege.

wale_bate1

Hell trying to buy one at all was a challenge.

Many moons ago, as a newlywed and pauper (redundant I know), My pretty wife and I went to the local Chevyman hoping to covet a then new Storm GSi (in red with a fat whale tail!). Now, that store made most of its bucks on the hundreds of Vettes and Z28s they stocked and loved. The looks we got when we insisted on looking at the Isuzu rebadge could've maimed a rhino. You'd have thought we were asking them to shovel horse poop down their panties or something.

Very similar, if toned down experience to shopping an IS. I ended up buying it from an old HS friend I chanced to meet on a lot down in Monterey. Even he couldn't believe I wasn't interested in a GS. Kept pushing me to take a 430 out for a spin; "try it, man, this is the car you really want, I'm telling you..." Ummm, no thanks. Do I look like an orthodontist from White Plains? }-]

The very idea of the car was, and may well continue to be (except for the 350), repugnant to many Lexsellers. I can't even begin to imagine trying to get one to expend the energy for a factory order! ;-}

fredmcmurray

"Do I look like an orthodontist from White Plains? }-] "

Now, that you mention it (picturing Alan Arkin in "The In-Laws"). Maybe a little.

wale_bate1

LOL!

"Serpentine, Shelly, serpentine!"

shipo

I thought that Alan Arkin drove Grocer's slightly used black Lincoln Continental after Blank hit him over the head with the TV. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

rotoryfan

alegria1 - your question about waiting to see the IS -- it seems to have caught your eye, maybe that should tell you something? Pictures can not substitude for seeing a car in person/a test drive...

Whatever you do, don't make a car choice based on these forums - take it all with a grain of salt. Work through you priorities/wants/needs. Everyone here has bias and/or agenda (and there may even be a car saleman or two pushing their product!) - and trust your gut feeling (after research, test drives, etc.).

Good luck with your decision. Cheers

drfill

The old Maxima SE would do 6.7 0-60 times for MT. Weighed in at LESS than 3100 lbs! That's over 300 less than the IS250.

Plus it had 205 lb.ft. of torque, again well ahead of the IS anticipated 180 or so.

There goes any hopes of sub 7 second times.

DrFill

maxhonda99

The Maxima also had FWD and had a 5-speed manual....

stickguy

no electronic aids. In the real world, it was hard to really get the performance potential on the ground. Should be a lot easier with the IS.

Frankly, I was able to be plenty entertained using way less than 100% of the power of the Max. Getting traction, being geared correctly, throttle resonse, a nice broad power band are all keys to a rewarding driving experience. Maybe I would have to use 90% of the power of the IS to equal 80% of the Max, but I rarely used that much of the Max, and it will be easier to tap into with the IS.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what my point was anymore.

I will say, speculation is fun, but we really need some road tests and test drives to know what is going on.

stickguy

regarding opwer, I almost bought a 525i in 2001, a five speed, but still only 2.5l and 182 HP. That car, to me, was still quite quick. GOt off the line well, and pulled like a freight train on the open road. COming off an on ramp, it shot from 50-80 real quick.

HP numbers ain't everything.

oac

I had one of those Maxima, a '96. After 120K miles in 6 years, traded it for something better. The IS250/6MT should do the low low 7s 0-60. But didn't we all agree its not all about straight line acceleration ? The IS will be a much better car than the old Max in features, ride, handling, and performance. Of course it also looks worlds better, if that counts for anything.

drfill

I think the competition offers a more balanced performance package.

It'll probably handle nicely, and have Lexus-strength brakes, but power is what people will buy, in the end. And it seems to be well short of the comp. in this price range.

Why the current 3.0 is not here needs to be answered at some point, closer to launch. They invested heavily to improve it.

Changes need to be made if this car will be a stud in this class, and not a niche player.

DrFill

rotoryfan

"It'll probably handle nicely, and have Lexus-strength brakes, but power is what people will buy, in the end."

What is the max hp available in the 3 series (255 hp?) ??
What 3 series model is most sold? Is it the 325 (with a V6 having <200 hp?) ??

So the view is that the IS (IS250 with approx. 210 and the 350 with 300+) will not sell because it doesn't have enough HP? Is that the common view?

Just wonderin'

Cheers

drfill

A. When you talk about 3-series sales, the 325 doesn't sell 100k units by itself.

The 3-series offers configurations not available in most of the competition. AWD, coupes, convertibles, and the vaunted M3 (plus M3 convertible!)

The G35 makes 70k sales a years off of two models, coupe or sedan.

The TL is one trim, one size!

So the 3 is popular for it's versatility.

B. Fan Base

When you consider how far ahead the 3-series is in market recognition, customer base, and the number of generations (I think we are looking at the sixth), they have had to hone this car into a legend (not a lot of people clamoring for a '91 320i, the car took of with the '92 redesign), you have a lot of people spreading good word-of-mouth, and people driving used 325 that can now step up and buy a new 325.

C. BMW HP

A BMW HP rating, as most mags will tell you, is unlike any other manufacturer rating in that it is very pessimistic.

I've seen 525i with MT run mid 6 seconds!

The 3-series is definitely an exception to the current sales rules, as the G and TL have seen sales spike after an increase in power and displacement.

The IS is no 325 (I KNOW I've said this before), nor can it be marketed as such.

Lexus needs to overdeliver, a la the LS did in 1989, to wrest any significant market share away from strong players like the 3 (benchmark + versatility), the TL (value), or the G (power, versatility).

I think the market will be underwhelmed after the first year spike. Lexus has a long-term plan, I guess. They will grind out a winner here, they just are choosing to take quite a bit of time to do it. This car is close! (II) Close!

DrFill

gee35coupe

I don't think they will have much trouble "wresting" the modest number of new buyers from the available customers. I didn't buy the old IS because of the interior. They seem to have addressed that concern with this model. I haven't seen a sub-3 liter 6 cylinder 5-series run 6 second 60's. The 1999 model I drove was peppy, but a 6 second car it was not. Not to mention the 5 series is getting kind of rare in a stick.

All this talk about auto transmission not being "sporty" kind of make me laugh when nearly every race series other than touring car and Nascar has paddle shifters now. And even Ferrari places more developement a research into improving it's auto transmission because most of them are sold with paddle shifters these days. I mean unless Ferraris aren't "sporty" any more.

rotoryfan

drfi - "G and TL have seen sales spike after an increase in power and displacement."

So you think it was all based on power (HP)? The complete interior/exterior redesigns had nothing to do with it? (The '04 TL redesign gets rave reviews- and must have been a positive impact on sales/desirability).

Based on the pictures and intial reactions - the IS re-design (interior and exterior) is seeing VERY positive feedback (and of course, being a Lexus/Japanese car, reliability, fit and finish, etc. is basically assumed) and that, IMO, will be a big driver of sales.

With gas on the way to $3/gal, I personally do not want more that adequate HP (adequate being defined as meeting commuting needs + a few HP to spare).

drfill

The only problems I remember in the 1st TL were 5-cyl engines. It always had a very suave interior.

When it went to 225HP, Acura made sure to bring that up as often as they could. Of course, back then, 225HP was a ton of power (relatively).

And Infiniti made an effort to NOT be underpowered.

Lexus should also learn from the Audi A4, an excellent car, that is a marginal seller as it mimics the power, size, and dynamics of the 3-series, but it doesn't have enough to seperate from the class leader.

DrFill

caboosemoose

Don't forget that the Audi A4 sells very well indeed in Europe, which is probably a larger market for this type of vehicle. More than anything else, I think Lexus need to make the IS a car that appeals to Europeans. If they can do that, the I think success in North America will follow.