Well, the out-going IS routinely sold better than two models of GS combined. With two variants, one of which wasn't marketed in the least and remains unknown to this day, the IS was not a home run, but certainly a success. It was already a three-year old platform when introduced, with a wonderful, but ancient and heavy I-6 to anchor it, and out-gunned by virtually everything it came up against. And yet the press was enamored of the driving experience. Rightfully so.
This new 250 is a step sideways, it seems. Sales will be traded from "drivers" in the current car to "motorists" in it's replacement, I think. The people who didn't buy it based on appearances inside and out wouldn't have bought it regardless, IMO, because they wouldn't have understood or cared for the driving experience.
the driving enthusiasts are fewer and fewer today than a decade ago. And to succeed (its a business afterall) you must cater to 80-90% of your market, and that's what Lexus is doing with the new IS twins. Like I've opined before, its just about making compromises; no car will satisfy every need or address every need as well.
I don't think this is a home run either. Maybe that's just my rather substantial level of disappointment showing through.
They build a car for 2001 that's supposed to lower the aging demographic and introduce real driving to Lexus, and they accomplish just that. Then, to expand it's sphere of influence, they turn around and focus on the details that matter only to their existing, aging loyal customer base.
all speculation until there are live samples to test out (or at least magazine tests to read). No reason that a brand new design shouldn't be able to handle just as well as the old one designed at least 10 years ago. performance also remains to be seen, depending on what they wring out of the new engine (and where in the range).
No, people shouldn't buy a sports sedan just for MPG or reat seat room, but there still needs to be at least acceptable levels of each one. If the new car does better in each area, it will be a much easier sell to many people.
If I was to get one, it would be a 250/stick, so it's nice that ir will have the "old tech" electronics. Not that I would probably test the limits of VDIM in my normal use, but it would bother me to have an overly intrusive co-pilot on board (just knowing it is there).
Remember, the IS was/is not a cheap car. Always a fine line building something to appeal to the real young "edgy" crowd, if they can't afford to buy it. That leaves the fringe crowd (me, wale probably) that want something smaller and more performance oriented, even if it is aimed lower than our demographic and/or social status.
Translated, that means not too many 40+ guys want to drive a go-cart on wheels.
Besides, the bogey (3 series) was generally more comfy/less edgy (frankly more lexus-like), and it seems to do OK.
THe next 3 will be the big test to see how the IS compares.
that the old IS300 was mostly a marketing failure...
1) First year.. no stick..
2) Dealer group.. not prepared to sell an enthusiast's car..
And.. the big one...
3) Pricing.. Even in '01 and '02, most of the IS300s on the lots had an MSRP of $33K-$35K.. That just wasn't enough of a discount from their main competition (he who must not be named).
Every other Lexus seemed priced to substantially undercut the German marques, but not this puppy..
I'm concerned that they are making that same mistake again..
The dealer group comment is well taken and to the point. Most, from my shopping experience, had no interest in selling the car, in fact they seemed to resent it. As some Lexusists have expressed in here time to time, the feeling was apparently that it was just "un-Lexus".
Well duh! That was the point.
The pricing thing was critical, and is of course key. By 2003, when I bought mine, the lease was heavily subsidized and the price had been reduced. Too little too late.
you have a different business model from the new Lexus, that is brilliant and destined for sucess.
That's an unbiased and totally objective view. :confuse:
The way some of us see it, designing the car to be more lexus-like doesn't really address the fact that the last IS was viewed as anything but a legit entry-lux competitor. Making the IS250 softer and slower doesn't bode well for changing the perception of Lexus as a doughy automaker.
2) We arent even certain it will be slower with RWD and the 6 sp ratios, as opposed to the old 5 speed. The new motor may be much more flexible than people here assume. People doubted the GS430 6A would be capable of the times Lexus claimed, and C/D managed 5.7 seconds with theirs, and 6.1 in the street start... almost precisely Lexus' estimates.
God, why are folks so quick to condemn that with which we have so little practical experience?
C'mon, Alpha, why are so many who won't even buy one so steadfast in its defense? [-)
This is not a condemnation of the car itself, as I haven't driven it. It is a criticism of the direction I see on paper and electronically. It seems decidedly heading back toward cush and plush, which is what was available BI (before IS).
To your point however, I see very few posting here who have any real intimate experience with the current car, and yet feel very comfy and smug pointing up all of its manifold and damning deficiencies!
"bring back the sportcross style, this time with a stick.
I don't care if the only 2 people in the country that would want that are me and wale. They should do it anyway."
PLEASE REVISE YOUR FIGURES! Make that 2 in USA. And One in Canada!
My specific order is for a Is350 Sportcross with a stick(make mine awd please) If I could get such a car I would change my forum name to DeweyLexusFan.
You assume it will be just as fast (which is still slow, IMHO) but the fact that it's a smaller, less powerful engine on a large/weightier car leads to a logical conclusion the car will in all likelihood not be as fast. Oh and then there are the published estimates from Lexus...
"The IS 250 will carry a 2.5-liter version of the same advanced V6 engine with over 200 hp and more than 180 lb.-ft. of torque. Coupled with a standard 6-speed manual transmission, acceleration from 0-60 miles per hour will be in the high 7-second range. Estimated combined fuel economy ratings are also expected to be in the high-twenties." http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323c
Well the current IS was conceived as a toyota Altezza, the new IS will be a Lexus from the wheels up. I think they are getting more serious about building a contender to go against the 3 series, only time will tell however if this holds true and they come close.
Hatchbacks are quite hot. Look at sales of the Mazda3, Mini Cooper, etc. Lexus and others are probably all closely watching the sales of the Audi A3 when it arrives. That car could be a harbinger for more hatches.
I don't know... I hear rumblings.. All the bitching made them change their minds about a manual shifter on the new M5.. anything can happen..
I think the new IS250 with a stick, will be a worthy competitor to the new 325i, but not if they match it's price... They need to undercut the 325i by a good $3-$4K to really be successful... IMHO..
Faster isn't the button, it's only a small part of the equation.
As for competition shopping, anyone who shopped a 325 between 2002 and 2005 and didn't cross-shop an IS300 wasn't really serious about driving. Granted that's just my opinion, but having met in person and online some of the more articulate IS owners, these people drive for fun and did precisely that. I'm one of them.
As for this version, I can't wait to drive it myself. On paper, as I've now said many times, it's not real promising, which has no bearing on whether or not I'll test it; it's close enough to give it a shot. Notice the bread and butter 250 is equated with updated styling (as is the 350 of course), but it's the 350, which is up-trim and the higher margin machine, they equate with performance, and merely faster at that. Past a certain point, I really don't care how fast it goes; I have other candidates to consider from that vantage that I think offer more all around.
So dream all you want about a 350, just realize that we're talking an OPP several thousand higher than the $29.9K speculated for a base IS. This effectively takes the lust factor away from the 20-something emerging professional the IS was developed to lure (and succeeded, BTW) , and puts it squarely on the 40-something (maybe late thirty) seasoned veteran with full IRA contributions and a real estate investment or two under his belt.
On Germany: the only player that will ultimately take down BMW is BMW. I think the new 5-series is displaying ample proof of that theory. They have a long way to fall, though, and plenty of time and money for a recovery, assuming they haven't been hiring any unaccounted for GM people...
The ONLY way the IS will be a SUSTAINED success in this competitive market is to have the IS250, with Leather and roof, for no more than $33k. If you pay $35-38k for a "loaded" IS250, you are not getting good value, plus it will hurt you in resale, overpaying in the first place, then having to sit around waiting for someone to pay a similar King's Ransom for a used car.
If this is their (flawed) plan, $33k for the underpowered IS250 ("popularly equipped"), and less than $40k for the "overpowering eunic" (sic) IS350, well equipped. Leather, xenon, roof, and ML. Otherwise, get a G for $33-34k with Leather, Bose, roof, and 298HP, 6MT, and more room, and strong resale value to boot!
And get a stick in there by Summer of '07 ( :mad: ).
Then you have a SHOT!
They'll get there 45-50k the first year.
What's next, since I don't expect a hybrid 'til '08.
"The IS 350 and the just-launched, aerodynamic GS 430 sedan are the products of a push to make Lexuses faster -- and faster-looking."
The 2006 GS430 isn't any faster than the 1998 GS400 that came out 8 years ago.
"Lexus boasts that these cars' performance will rival that of BMW's Ultimate Driving Machines."
The IS350 isn't out, so I can't speak for it. The GS430 has a lot of things going for it, but Ultimate Driving Machine? Far from it. It drives more like a smaller LS430, and has a more restrictive stability control system.
Yeah I hope for Lexus' sake that their "boasting" of the IS's handling abilities has a little more truth and a little less hype\lying in it. I'm not really surprised though, this is Toyota after all. Look at Altima SE-R vs. Camry SE. Both are supposed to be "the sports version". One is pretend, one isnt.
a SportCross on campus tonight where someone had taken off all the badges and put on the "Altezza Gita" from Japan. Su-weeeet! :-)
Lexus should have kept the hatch.
MT ran an article this month that is probably horribly out of date and/or already discussed and tossed aside in this forum, but it mentions a figure of 280 hp for the 350, and 204 (DIN, so probably the 201 SAE that has been mentioned) for the 250.
Early magazine feedback on the new GS has been very negative in terms of turning it into a "driving machine" - it is much the isolation chamber it was before, although it may be a little faster on its feet now, especially if you rip the VDIM right out of the car. Anyway, point is, I hope the new IS is ANYTHING BUT a scaled down GS.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The 350 will have a bare minimum of 301hp and 276ft.lbs of torque, so yes, that MT article is outdated\wrong. Reports are saying that VDIM interference will be scaled down in the IS350, but I HOPE for their sake that there is an "OFF" switch.
What I was getting at with the Altima and Camry bit was that typically when Nissan wants to inject some sport into a model, wether its a Nissan or Infiniti, it does so. Toyota has a history of half-hearted sports efforts, and the GS suffers some because of that. Its mantra would be "are you ready for safe fun?" with the emphasis on "safe" rather than "fun".
I hope that Lexus doesnt make the same mistake with the IS350. The previous car was a very rare exception in that it was a true enthusiast machine from Toyota, and I hope they dont lose that with the new car.
Will the IS350/6A be a fun-to-drive car ? No one besides Lexus testers know for sure, for now. But I wonder why we ask this question ? Is there anything wrong with the current IS300 in the fun-to-drive category ? Are you people expecting Lexus' new IS to regress or progress ? So far, all looks good on this car relative to what it will be replacing.
Lets revisit a recurring theme here: how an IS350/6A is a bad idea cos it won't compete against the 3-series, the auto rags will hate it, and enthusiasts will not buy it either. Of course, when we point out an IS250/6MT, oh that doesn't count cos its too puny motor, slow and not at par with its predecessor. Hmmmm..... Just wondering how many BMW fans complained of the measly 177hp 325i/525i or the 183hp 528i sold here in the US ? Oh, I forget, these are the ultimate driving machines ! so who cares about power ?????
IS might very well regress in the fun to drive department. 1) It shares a platform with GS, at least that's what I read in Lexus dedicated forum. 2) 1st IS had no success at all, so Lexus wants 2nd IS to grow up, and not be a boy racer anymore. 3) 1st IS didn't start life as Lexus, but as Altezza!
Oac, you're missing the plot here. Hp isn't why BMW has the position it does..its the total package. If 177hp and 183hp mates well with a proper manual and a slick chassis then thats all the power you need. In the eyes of some 300hp is useless without the stick. Lexus isn't going to ever win over this group with the IS350, but might win over some of them with an IS250 manual if the car comes together in a way that it doesn't constantly remind you its short on power.
Hmmm, well, I drove a 1999 528i 5-Speed, and found that it didn't have enough power. I got a 1999 328i 5-Speed instead, it by the way had just enough power for my tastes at the time. I then got a 530i 5-Speed, which had even more of a kick than the 328i did. Do I care about power? Yes. Do I care about power enough to have sprung an extra 9K to jump up to the 540i when I got the 530i? Nope, not that much. Regarding the new IS; as it looks on paper today, it is a very interesting car, clearly sized, optioned and powered the way I want my next car to be. Having said that, the IS250 is no where to be found on my short list of next cars. Why, in relative terms, it's going to be gutless. On the other hand, the IS350, which appears to have been endowed with enough motor to satisfy my affection for more torque on the lower end, and more juice on the upper end, isn't on my short list either. Why? No manual transmission.
The problem with the next generation IS is quite simple; Lexus is forcing its customers to make a decision between more power or a manual transmission. I want both, and if I cannot have both, then its, "Hello Infiniti (G35 6-Speed)", or "Hello BMW (330i 6-Speed)", or "Hello Mercedes (C350 6-Speed)", or (God help me) "Hello Cadillac (CTS 6-Speed)". Notice a pattern there?
Hehe, well, not really. Even though its been out for a while, I still have not warmed to its looks, and I hear that its 6-Speed manual is, ummm, less than a work of art.
And another thing. I have yet to find a Cadillac dealership that will even let me drive one, or for that matter, is even willing to order one with a 6-Speed. The conversation always goes something like this, "Mr. Shipo, you don't REALLY want a 6-Speed do you?"
Interestingly enough, BMW caved and will offer a 6-speed manual on the M5, but only in the NA market. I'm willing to bet that if there is enough pressure for them to do so, Lexus will do the same with the IS350.
Oac, you're missing the plot here. Hp isn't why BMW has the position it does..its the total package. If 177hp and 183hp mates well with a proper manual and a slick chassis then thats all the power you need. In the eyes of some 300hp is useless without the stick. Lexus isn't going to ever win over this group with the IS350,
The BMW 2.5 is based on the same basic engine structure that made 188 hp in 1989, when the top Accord engine made 130hp or so; today, Accords have 240hp. Horsepower was/is one of the important selling point for BMW (and for any other manufacturer, for that matter), it simply got left behind by time. You are absolutely right in that it's the "total package"; for a lot 325i buyers, the most important part of the package is the propeller badge. People used to take their E30's to autocross events on weekends, certainly not the E36 and E46 325 buyers. There are trend setters, and trend followers. Lexus can never win over the trend followers in the first few years of a new line of cars.
On the other hand, by studying the evolution of E30, E36 and E46, Lexus has finally come to the right conclusion that "sport-sedan" market has evolved away from lightweight sportscar that toss around quickly in corners (what the IS300 was); more becoming heavy-weight luxury touring cars with high power and go fast. The trend is towards M5's kind of sportiness and away from that of Lotus Elise, if you want to mark the extremes of the spectrum. With the IS350, Lexus is entirely correct in establishing the upper model with HP credibility, and expect the volume sales come from the lower priced IS250, just like the 330/325 combo.
Absolutely! Although with first year projected sales of 5000 units only, there is a question of whether the manufacturer is interested in put up with the extra R&D and certification cost a well as manufactuering and distribution complexity all to sell a version that will sell $1000-1500 less MSRP. In the 2nd or 3rd year, when the line is looking for buyers, the balance of econmics will tilt towards getting the manual in. As for noticing a pattern, G35, C class with the larger motor (albeit it was C320 at the time) and CTS all had no manual in the first year of production.
But I wonder why we ask this question ? Is there anything wrong with the current IS300 in the fun-to-drive category ? Are you people expecting Lexus' new IS to regress or progress ? So far, all looks good on this car relative to what it will be replacing.
not a popular notion here but I did not find the last gen IS fun to drive. Way too slow. If I want a great handling slow car I'll buy a miata and get other benefits..
Just wondering how many BMW fans complained of the measly 177hp 325i/525i or the 183hp 528i sold here in the US ? Oh, I forget, these are the ultimate driving machines ! so who cares about power ?????
Can't believe people buy them. They're garbage, imho.
yet to find a Cadillac dealership that will even let me drive one, or for that matter, is even willing to order one with a 6-Speed. The conversation always goes something like this, "Mr. Shipo, you don't REALLY want a 6-Speed do you?"
ROFL...getting a CTS manual to drive was a major pain. And the salesman kept saying, "Why would you want a cadillac with a manual? this is a caddy."
What a joke. The guy knew jack about the car or cars in general and he claimed to have been a Caddy salesman for over 20 years. He kept grumbling during the test drive, "Whoa, there are speed limits." And when he asked if I'd take it, I told him the car wasn't nearly on par with anything in the entry sports-luxo class. He got really angry and said, "Those foreign cars can never messure up to a cadillac." Uh, yeah, if I were a pimp!
The BMW 2.5 is based on the same basic engine structure that made 188 hp in 1989, when the top Accord engine made 130hp or so; today, Accords have 240hp. Horsepower was/is one of the important selling point for BMW (and for any other manufacturer, for that matter), it simply got left behind by time.
The part you've overlooked, is that in 1989, the 325i was the top of the line model.. The entry-level 318i only pulled 138 hp or so.... And, I wouldn't say the current model has the same basic engine structure, other than they are both inline sixes..
Back then 188hp/138hp for the two models.. Today, 225hp/184hp... '06 models, 255hp/215hp..
I don't think they've been left behind at all.. They probably have the most innovative engines in the industry (all magnesium alloy for '06).
And.. the first poster was correct.. It has never been all about horsepower for BMW.. It is handling, first and foremost... still is.. and, I think there are still plenty of E36 and E46 auto-crossers...
The part you've overlooked, is that in 1989, the 325i was the top of the line model.. The entry-level 318i only pulled 138 hp or so.... And, I wouldn't say the current model has the same basic engine structure, other than they are both inline sixes..
Back then 188hp/138hp for the two models.. Today, 225hp/184hp... '06 models, 255hp/215hp..
You missed product mix however. Back then (early 90's) 325i accounted for over half of 3 series sales in the US despite its being the higher model; 318i was closer to 1/3 than 1/2 of total 3 series sales. Today 325i/Ci/CiC/Xi, the lower engined models, account for the overwhelming majority of 3 series sales in the US (more than 3/4). Contrast to that, the higher end "plebian" cars like the Accord has gone from 125hp to 240hp. The problem facing BMW in the engine department is not too different from that facing SAAB: back in the early 90's, 185 from 2.0 turbo and 230hp from 2.3 turbo were phenomenal, whereas today these are just numbers for typical "decent" cars. The difference has shrunk drasticly, and making the price premiums hard to justify. Eventually you start to get quesitons from crossshopper who do not care that much about brands, like the post asking whether IS250 or Solara V6 would be faster.
HP has never been a major selling point for BMW if it were they'd never sell anything because their hp was never at the head of any class. The fact that the brand new 330i will only sport 255hp when the C350 has 268, the G35 280/298, the TL 270, the A4 3.2 252, so BMW is hardly class leading, which is what they'd need to do if hp was a big selling point right? BMWs are about hp sure, but more importantly they way it all comes together.
Lexus thinks that by leapfrogging the class in hp they don't have to worry about a manual and for a many they won't but for the ones that want a manual 500hp won't make them forget this.
You can word it any way you like still sounds like an excuse to me.
The only reason cars in this segment are moving away from "Lotus Elise" sportiness is because buyers demand all this other stuff on their cars that add weight. A bare sports sedan isn't going to sell anymore, the current IS300 proved that.
Anyone who questions whether or not a V6 Solara is faster and actually thinks they have a comparable car because of that is as lost as lost can be.
Lexus thinks that by leapfrogging the class in hp they don't have to worry about a manual and for a many they won't but for the ones that want a manual 500hp won't make them forget this.
Lexus intends to set a bar for others to meet or play catch-up to. How else do you get attention of the competition if all you do is match their offerings ? Exceed the competition with sleekier design, more refined product (inside and out), class-leading HP/TQ and hopefully price the offering right, and you have a winner. Seeing that Lexus plans to sell about 10,000 IS350/6A in MY2006, I won't worry that much about a lack of a stick, afterall a pure no-frill sport-sedan like the M5 planned no stick for release, and until we see it happen, I'd not believe it. See the trend here ?? By MY2007, Lexus should offer one along with possibly another variant of the IS, maybe the hardtop coupe. By MY2008, expect the hybrid which will up the ante, once again, in pure HP/TQ combo and pure adrenaline fun ride. And if gas prices continue to go up, these hybrid Lexus/Toyota releases will be a huge $$$ making products for a company already awash in money......
Like I have said, repeatedly, you gotta look at the full picture to understand the plan here. Don't consider the trickle releases in isolation.
I am pretty sure a Solara V-6 could easily outgun both a 325i and the upcoming IS250. Not to mention the C230 coupe - you know the one, it sounds like a lawn tractor.
:-P
For that matter, so could the Accord V-6 coupe, which at least is available with a six-speed manual. And of course, they are both FWD - very icky indeed. Icky icky icky.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Can't believe people buy them. They're garbage, imho"
In defense of the soon to be IS250 manaul buyers, I myself was a buyer of a BMW323i with a whopping 168hp in 1998! Do I regret my decision. ABSOULUTELY NOT!!
Back then I had a budget and you pick the best what money can buy. My other choice was a V6 Honda Accord. The handling and agility of my car compensates somewhat for its low hp.
Would I buy a IS250/BMW325i in the future! ABSOLUTELY NOT I just have an urge to splurge on something more enticing like a manual IS350/330(when Lexus makes an announcement on May 12,2006 that a manual version will exist) :P
In order to splurge ---I will just have to cut back on my investments in IBM( I am sure the future negative returns on my future car will not exceed IBM's negative returns) :sick:
Comments
This new 250 is a step sideways, it seems. Sales will be traded from "drivers" in the current car to "motorists" in it's replacement, I think. The people who didn't buy it based on appearances inside and out wouldn't have bought it regardless, IMO, because they wouldn't have understood or cared for the driving experience.
I don't think this is a home run either. Maybe that's just my rather substantial level of disappointment showing through.
They build a car for 2001 that's supposed to lower the aging demographic and introduce real driving to Lexus, and they accomplish just that. Then, to expand it's sphere of influence, they turn around and focus on the details that matter only to their existing, aging loyal customer base.
Makes perfect sense to me...
[-P
No, people shouldn't buy a sports sedan just for MPG or reat seat room, but there still needs to be at least acceptable levels of each one. If the new car does better in each area, it will be a much easier sell to many people.
If I was to get one, it would be a 250/stick, so it's nice that ir will have the "old tech" electronics. Not that I would probably test the limits of VDIM in my normal use, but it would bother me to have an overly intrusive co-pilot on board (just knowing it is there).
Remember, the IS was/is not a cheap car. Always a fine line building something to appeal to the real young "edgy" crowd, if they can't afford to buy it. That leaves the fringe crowd (me, wale probably) that want something smaller and more performance oriented, even if it is aimed lower than our demographic and/or social status.
Translated, that means not too many 40+ guys want to drive a go-cart on wheels.
Besides, the bogey (3 series) was generally more comfy/less edgy (frankly more lexus-like), and it seems to do OK.
THe next 3 will be the big test to see how the IS compares.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
1) First year.. no stick..
2) Dealer group.. not prepared to sell an enthusiast's car..
And.. the big one...
3) Pricing.. Even in '01 and '02, most of the IS300s on the lots had an MSRP of $33K-$35K.. That just wasn't enough of a discount from their main competition (he who must not be named).
Every other Lexus seemed priced to substantially undercut the German marques, but not this puppy..
I'm concerned that they are making that same mistake again..
regards,
kyfdx
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I don't care if the only 2 people in the country that would want that are me and wale. They should do it anyway.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well duh! That was the point.
The pricing thing was critical, and is of course key. By 2003, when I bought mine, the lease was heavily subsidized and the price had been reduced. Too little too late.
That's an unbiased and totally objective view. :confuse:
The way some of us see it, designing the car to be more lexus-like doesn't really address the fact that the last IS was viewed as anything but a legit entry-lux competitor. Making the IS250 softer and slower doesn't bode well for changing the perception of Lexus as a doughy automaker.
2) We arent even certain it will be slower with RWD and the 6 sp ratios, as opposed to the old 5 speed. The new motor may be much more flexible than people here assume. People doubted the GS430 6A would be capable of the times Lexus claimed, and C/D managed 5.7 seconds with theirs, and 6.1 in the street start... almost precisely Lexus' estimates.
God, why are folks so quick to condemn that with which we have so little practical experience?
~alpha
[-)
This is not a condemnation of the car itself, as I haven't driven it. It is a criticism of the direction I see on paper and electronically. It seems decidedly heading back toward cush and plush, which is what was available BI (before IS).
To your point however, I see very few posting here who have any real intimate experience with the current car, and yet feel very comfy and smug pointing up all of its manifold and damning deficiencies!
I don't care if the only 2 people in the country that would want that are me and wale. They should do it anyway."
PLEASE REVISE YOUR FIGURES!
Make that 2 in USA. And One in Canada!
My specific order is for a Is350 Sportcross with a stick(make mine awd please) If I could get such a car I would change my forum name to DeweyLexusFan.
So, there....
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Would you like fries and a drink with your order?
}-]
You assume it will be just as fast (which is still slow, IMHO) but the fact that it's a smaller, less powerful engine on a large/weightier car leads to a logical conclusion the car will in all likelihood not be as fast. Oh and then there are the published estimates from Lexus...
"The IS 250 will carry a 2.5-liter version of the same advanced V6 engine with over 200 hp and more than 180 lb.-ft. of torque. Coupled with a standard 6-speed manual transmission, acceleration from 0-60 miles per hour will be in the high 7-second range. Estimated combined fuel economy ratings are also expected to be in the high-twenties."
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323c
Most North Americans are hatchback phobics or haters.
I think the new IS250 with a stick, will be a worthy competitor to the new 325i, but not if they match it's price... They need to undercut the 325i by a good $3-$4K to really be successful... IMHO..
regards,
kyfdx
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As for competition shopping, anyone who shopped a 325 between 2002 and 2005 and didn't cross-shop an IS300 wasn't really serious about driving. Granted that's just my opinion, but having met in person and online some of the more articulate IS owners, these people drive for fun and did precisely that. I'm one of them.
As for this version, I can't wait to drive it myself. On paper, as I've now said many times, it's not real promising, which has no bearing on whether or not I'll test it; it's close enough to give it a shot. Notice the bread and butter 250 is equated with updated styling (as is the 350 of course), but it's the 350, which is up-trim and the higher margin machine, they equate with performance, and merely faster at that. Past a certain point, I really don't care how fast it goes; I have other candidates to consider from that vantage that I think offer more all around.
So dream all you want about a 350, just realize that we're talking an OPP several thousand higher than the $29.9K speculated for a base IS. This effectively takes the lust factor away from the 20-something emerging professional the IS was developed to lure (and succeeded, BTW) , and puts it squarely on the 40-something (maybe late thirty) seasoned veteran with full IRA contributions and a real estate investment or two under his belt.
On Germany: the only player that will ultimately take down BMW is BMW. I think the new 5-series is displaying ample proof of that theory. They have a long way to fall, though, and plenty of time and money for a recovery, assuming they haven't been hiring any unaccounted for GM people...
The ONLY way the IS will be a SUSTAINED success in this competitive market is to have the IS250, with Leather and roof, for no more than $33k. If you pay $35-38k for a "loaded" IS250, you are not getting good value, plus it will hurt you in resale, overpaying in the first place, then having to sit around waiting for someone to pay a similar King's Ransom for a used car.
If this is their (flawed) plan, $33k for the underpowered IS250 ("popularly equipped"), and less than $40k for the "overpowering eunic" (sic) IS350, well equipped. Leather, xenon, roof, and ML. Otherwise, get a G for $33-34k with Leather, Bose, roof, and 298HP, 6MT, and more room, and strong resale value to boot!
And get a stick in there by Summer of '07 ( :mad: ).
Then you have a SHOT!
They'll get there 45-50k the first year.
What's next, since I don't expect a hybrid 'til '08.
DrFill
The 2006 GS430 isn't any faster than the 1998 GS400 that came out 8 years ago.
"Lexus boasts that these cars' performance will rival that of BMW's Ultimate Driving Machines."
The IS350 isn't out, so I can't speak for it. The GS430 has a lot of things going for it, but Ultimate Driving Machine? Far from it. It drives more like a smaller LS430, and has a more restrictive stability control system.
Lexus should have kept the hatch.
MT ran an article this month that is probably horribly out of date and/or already discussed and tossed aside in this forum, but it mentions a figure of 280 hp for the 350, and 204 (DIN, so probably the 201 SAE that has been mentioned) for the 250.
Early magazine feedback on the new GS has been very negative in terms of turning it into a "driving machine" - it is much the isolation chamber it was before, although it may be a little faster on its feet now, especially if you rip the VDIM right out of the car. Anyway, point is, I hope the new IS is ANYTHING BUT a scaled down GS.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I hope that Lexus doesnt make the same mistake with the IS350. The previous car was a very rare exception in that it was a true enthusiast machine from Toyota, and I hope they dont lose that with the new car.
Tee hee...
Lets revisit a recurring theme here: how an IS350/6A is a bad idea cos it won't compete against the 3-series, the auto rags will hate it, and enthusiasts will not buy it either. Of course, when we point out an IS250/6MT, oh that doesn't count cos its too puny motor, slow and not at par with its predecessor. Hmmmm..... Just wondering how many BMW fans complained of the measly 177hp 325i/525i or the 183hp 528i sold here in the US ? Oh, I forget, these are the ultimate driving machines ! so who cares about power ?????
M
Hmmm, well, I drove a 1999 528i 5-Speed, and found that it didn't have enough power. I got a 1999 328i 5-Speed instead, it by the way had just enough power for my tastes at the time. I then got a 530i 5-Speed, which had even more of a kick than the 328i did. Do I care about power? Yes. Do I care about power enough to have sprung an extra 9K to jump up to the 540i when I got the 530i? Nope, not that much. Regarding the new IS; as it looks on paper today, it is a very interesting car, clearly sized, optioned and powered the way I want my next car to be. Having said that, the IS250 is no where to be found on my short list of next cars. Why, in relative terms, it's going to be gutless. On the other hand, the IS350, which appears to have been endowed with enough motor to satisfy my affection for more torque on the lower end, and more juice on the upper end, isn't on my short list either. Why? No manual transmission.
The problem with the next generation IS is quite simple; Lexus is forcing its customers to make a decision between more power or a manual transmission. I want both, and if I cannot have both, then its, "Hello Infiniti (G35 6-Speed)", or "Hello BMW (330i 6-Speed)", or "Hello Mercedes (C350 6-Speed)", or (God help me) "Hello Cadillac (CTS 6-Speed)". Notice a pattern there?
Best Regards,
Shipo
And another thing. I have yet to find a Cadillac dealership that will even let me drive one, or for that matter, is even willing to order one with a 6-Speed. The conversation always goes something like this, "Mr. Shipo, you don't REALLY want a 6-Speed do you?"
Best Regards,
Shipo
If someone stops by asking for a CTS, the dealer better be on the phone, looking to dealer trade any one he wants to TEST DRIVE, much less purchase!
You know, I bet Infiniti execs are breathing one HUGE sigh of relief these days, eh?
DrFill
I am also curious about how it compares in size to an accord, or similar size vehicle.
(I am thinking of it as a possible replacement for an '03 TL).
Any ideas out there?
Cheers
The BMW 2.5 is based on the same basic engine structure that made 188 hp in 1989, when the top Accord engine made 130hp or so; today, Accords have 240hp. Horsepower was/is one of the important selling point for BMW (and for any other manufacturer, for that matter), it simply got left behind by time. You are absolutely right in that it's the "total package"; for a lot 325i buyers, the most important part of the package is the propeller badge. People used to take their E30's to autocross events on weekends, certainly not the E36 and E46 325 buyers. There are trend setters, and trend followers. Lexus can never win over the trend followers in the first few years of a new line of cars.
On the other hand, by studying the evolution of E30, E36 and E46, Lexus has finally come to the right conclusion that "sport-sedan" market has evolved away from lightweight sportscar that toss around quickly in corners (what the IS300 was); more becoming heavy-weight luxury touring cars with high power and go fast. The trend is towards M5's kind of sportiness and away from that of Lotus Elise, if you want to mark the extremes of the spectrum. With the IS350, Lexus is entirely correct in establishing the upper model with HP credibility, and expect the volume sales come from the lower priced IS250, just like the 330/325 combo.
Absolutely! Although with first year projected sales of 5000 units only, there is a question of whether the manufacturer is interested in put up with the extra R&D and certification cost a well as manufactuering and distribution complexity all to sell a version that will sell $1000-1500 less MSRP. In the 2nd or 3rd year, when the line is looking for buyers, the balance of econmics will tilt towards getting the manual in. As for noticing a pattern, G35, C class with the larger motor (albeit it was C320 at the time) and CTS all had no manual in the first year of production.
not a popular notion here but I did not find the last gen IS fun to drive. Way too slow. If I want a great handling slow car I'll buy a miata and get other benefits..
Just wondering how many BMW fans complained of the measly 177hp 325i/525i or the 183hp 528i sold here in the US ? Oh, I forget, these are the ultimate driving machines ! so who cares about power ?????
Can't believe people buy them. They're garbage, imho.
ROFL...getting a CTS manual to drive was a major pain. And the salesman kept saying, "Why would you want a cadillac with a manual? this is a caddy."
What a joke. The guy knew jack about the car or cars in general and he claimed to have been a Caddy salesman for over 20 years. He kept grumbling during the test drive, "Whoa, there are speed limits." And when he asked if I'd take it, I told him the car wasn't nearly on par with anything in the entry sports-luxo class. He got really angry and said, "Those foreign cars can never messure up to a cadillac." Uh, yeah, if I were a pimp!
The part you've overlooked, is that in 1989, the 325i was the top of the line model.. The entry-level 318i only pulled 138 hp or so.... And, I wouldn't say the current model has the same basic engine structure, other than they are both inline sixes..
Back then 188hp/138hp for the two models.. Today, 225hp/184hp... '06 models, 255hp/215hp..
I don't think they've been left behind at all.. They probably have the most innovative engines in the industry (all magnesium alloy for '06).
And.. the first poster was correct.. It has never been all about horsepower for BMW.. It is handling, first and foremost... still is.. and, I think there are still plenty of E36 and E46 auto-crossers...
regards,
kyfdx
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Back then 188hp/138hp for the two models.. Today, 225hp/184hp... '06 models, 255hp/215hp..
You missed product mix however. Back then (early 90's) 325i accounted for over half of 3 series sales in the US despite its being the higher model; 318i was closer to 1/3 than 1/2 of total 3 series sales. Today 325i/Ci/CiC/Xi, the lower engined models, account for the overwhelming majority of 3 series sales in the US (more than 3/4). Contrast to that, the higher end "plebian" cars like the Accord has gone from 125hp to 240hp. The problem facing BMW in the engine department is not too different from that facing SAAB: back in the early 90's, 185 from 2.0 turbo and 230hp from 2.3 turbo were phenomenal, whereas today these are just numbers for typical "decent" cars. The difference has shrunk drasticly, and making the price premiums hard to justify. Eventually you start to get quesitons from crossshopper who do not care that much about brands, like the post asking whether IS250 or Solara V6 would be faster.
Lexus thinks that by leapfrogging the class in hp they don't have to worry about a manual and for a many they won't but for the ones that want a manual 500hp won't make them forget this.
You can word it any way you like still sounds like an excuse to me.
The only reason cars in this segment are moving away from "Lotus Elise" sportiness is because buyers demand all this other stuff on their cars that add weight. A bare sports sedan isn't going to sell anymore, the current IS300 proved that.
Anyone who questions whether or not a V6 Solara is faster and actually thinks they have a comparable car because of that is as lost as lost can be.
M
Lexus intends to set a bar for others to meet or play catch-up to. How else do you get attention of the competition if all you do is match their offerings ? Exceed the competition with sleekier design, more refined product (inside and out), class-leading HP/TQ and hopefully price the offering right, and you have a winner. Seeing that Lexus plans to sell about 10,000 IS350/6A in MY2006, I won't worry that much about a lack of a stick, afterall a pure no-frill sport-sedan like the M5 planned no stick for release, and until we see it happen, I'd not believe it. See the trend here ?? By MY2007, Lexus should offer one along with possibly another variant of the IS, maybe the hardtop coupe. By MY2008, expect the hybrid which will up the ante, once again, in pure HP/TQ combo and pure adrenaline fun ride. And if gas prices continue to go up, these hybrid Lexus/Toyota releases will be a huge $$$ making products for a company already awash in money......
Like I have said, repeatedly, you gotta look at the full picture to understand the plan here. Don't consider the trickle releases in isolation.
:-P
For that matter, so could the Accord V-6 coupe, which at least is available with a six-speed manual. And of course, they are both FWD - very icky indeed. Icky icky icky.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In defense of the soon to be IS250 manaul buyers, I myself was a buyer of a BMW323i with a whopping 168hp in 1998! Do I regret my decision. ABSOULUTELY NOT!!
Back then I had a budget and you pick the best what money can buy. My other choice was a V6 Honda Accord. The handling and agility of my car compensates somewhat for its low hp.
Would I buy a IS250/BMW325i in the future! ABSOLUTELY NOT I just have an urge to splurge on something more enticing like a manual IS350/330(when Lexus makes an announcement on May 12,2006 that a manual version will exist) :P
In order to splurge ---I will just have to cut back on my investments in IBM( I am sure the future negative returns on my future car will not exceed IBM's negative returns) :sick: