I am with you there - imagine a $29,995 IS with an added moonroof for $700 or so - the perfect car for me and just within reach at that sticker. But make the moonroof part of a luxury package that includes heated seats and HIDs and costs $2500 or more, and you can forget it. Or at least, Lexus can! :-)
It makes no sense that Lexus options are packaged this way, when Toyota cars can be optioned with just the moonroof.
I have never ordered a car, but if one could be ordered with just the moonroof, I might consider it. And if the base sticker were $28,995 instead, so much the better (I am an optimisit!). :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You know, being critical of the avialable info doesn't seem much like bashing, oac. I've expressed the caveat many times myself, but there are still those of us who aren't IS bashers (I own one, fer cryin' out loud), and yet do take issue with the direction we see, on paper that is.
Criticism is just that: debating the apparent strengths and weaknesses. Bashing is something else.
Criticism is just that: debating the apparent strengths and weaknesses. Bashing is something else
I am with you on this. On my part I have been critical as well, but have resolved to take a wait-and-see approach until the car gets here and we can all get to test drive it. For one, I think an IS250 with horses less than 210 will be a disappointment. Yes, I know its not all about hp, but you cannot price a 2.5L-engined car (<210hp) similar to the 3L (215hp) car it replaces as base sticker. Unless Lexus throws in a bunch of goodies as standard features.
An IS350 that comes loaded at $45K will be a huge stretch for me personally. I'd have to order one that will cost right around $40K tops ! At $40K, I'd better get a lotta goodies (I am a goodies fan, hence I own an LS) on this car. I am not just buying the 300+hp 3.5L-engined car, I want *most* of the goodies too. Otherwise I am going the other way to the Bimmer (ooppppsss... I said it).
I am anxously awaiting the arrival of the IS myself. And the 250 is exactly what I'm looking for. The new IS will be an excellent RWD touring car IMO. For those like myself who will never see triple digit speeds on a daily basis, but would like the added pleasure of RWD launches and a nice rev happy 6 cyl, the IS fits the bill. Perfectly. I'll gladly pay up to 32k for a loaded IS250 with a stick and Navi.
The style is excellent, the interior is typical Lexus (top notch) and I believe it will sell much better than the first gen based on the more "adult" direction of the new car (No offense to those who have first generation owners).
And like "wale" I too would appreciate a new Sportcross at some point in the model cycle.
For what I can reasonably expect to normally do, the 250 should have way more capability than I will be able to unleash. Even on the rare chance I get to have unbridled fun, a nice revvy 2.5L should be plenty to get me smiling.
To me, balance is more important than brute force. I don't mind making the car work to earn it's keep on occassion.
It;s true that the packages can get out of hand. My neighbor is an Infiniti dealer, and he had a new M35 (not even the V8) yesterday. Sticker in the window was 52K+ (for a V6!)
Now, the base price was $39,995, but it had a jaw dropping luxo package of over 10K, plus a few misc. itens.
Now, this did have a video system, navi, back up camera, and lots more junk I would probably never use, but it was amazing to see the price.
Point? Hope Lexus doesn't make the one or 2 things you really want (moonroof, maybe a nice stereo), only part of a 4K option package.
The M is definitely a very nice car, but that's a lot of $$$ for a V6 WOW!
"Hope Lexus doesn't make the one or 2 things you really want (moonroof, maybe a nice stereo), only part of a 4K option package"
Good point, I hope it doesn't happen here too. Doesn't the LS430 have that issue? I believe the Sunroof and the Mark Levinson are options after you've ponied up for the 56k price for the vehicle which is ridiculous IMO.
Considering that new M is bigger but handily out handles new GS, smaller size doesn't mean better handling. IS shares the same platform with GS, a platform that has not proved it's the equal of Infiniti FM platform.
I agree that the FM platform is world-class and have for 3 years since I test drove my first G35. Its amazing how well the FM cars handle, especially considering how large they are inside and out. The new IS 350 will be 6 inches shorter in overall length and 5 inches shorter in wheelbase than the G35, but weigh basically the same. The shorter length might make the IS more tossable, but the same weight might hold it back, so there are too many variables to decide one way or another. We will have to wait for the actual car.
Comparing the new IS to the new GS it is 10 inches shorter overall and 5 inches shorter in wheelbase. Combine that with the fact that entry-level sedans are usually tuned more aggressively than mid-luxury, and the IS should be much more capable than the new GS.
Will it matter if the electronics shut off all the fun? No. Could Lexus overreact and make the new IS too soft in order to contrast with the old low-selling one? Absolutely! Yet they may just have the foresight to keep the single best feature of the old one, which was its handling. And the fact that the IS remains small in the class at the size of the new 3 and A4 seems to indicate to me that they were possibly still considering handling while designing it. We shall see in time.
A g35 wagon would be interesting. With manaul option it would very interesting. I believe such a wagon if it exists in our continent would be based on a new and improved version of the G after two years. One thing I do not like about picture is that it looks real hefty(sort of like a Magnum)
One item not covered in this forum is the diesel IS available in Europe. That excites me. I am willing to sacrifice some performance for fuel efficiency. I dont know what the specs are for the diesel IS but I do know that a BMW330d can do 7.4 0-60 and achieve combined mpg in the mid 40s. Those are pretty good specs.
the ES is a very capable performer if what you want is a softie for riding around, so I highly doubt Lexus would make the mistake of making the IS too soft.
The reason IS is a little heavy for its size is bound to be that it shares platforms with the larger heavier GS.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Next IS will be the best-looking sedan Toyota has ever made.
The Next IS will be the best-looking "sports" sedan in it's very competitive $30-40k class. This includes the A4.
The list of STD. features is outstanding! I have want for nothing on the options list but the roof! In that respect, it is an AWESOME value.
If viewed in a VACUUM, the Next IS with approx. 208HP will be a very appealing, if not fully entertaining ride. It's power to weight ratio holds down the accolades enough.
My issues are with how Lexus has promoted it as some super-"sports-sedan", then dials down the power on the volume model, but over-delivers on the expensive model, then hamstrings it with super-slush. Feels, smells, fairly reeks of bait and switch.
This car has the tools. Like the GS, there is a great car in there. Lexus is trying to hide it. Why?
The mags say they succeeded (in hiding the goods) with the GS. I fear the same fate has befallen the IS. What a waste.
STILL, a 200HP with moonroof for $31k is a good buy.
A 296HP G35 with 6speed for $33k is a PHENOMONAL buy!
90HP, MT, and more room (still with a tight suspension) makes a big difference, to me.
"90HP, MT, and more room (still with a tight suspension) makes a big difference, to me"
Nothing in this world remains still forever, especially the G35. Imagine how the the IS250 will stack up against the G35 in two years when that model is renewed, For 2k more the difference gap between an IS and G will be even wider.
That's why we have options. I also won't be racing everyone in my car. So as long as the 200 hp is entertaining in this car I will be fine. I do just fine in my 160hp Civic SI and likewise with my wifes 04 Accord. All these comparisons are moot if you just want the Lexus because it's a nice car. Which it is. They still haven't put the "nice interior for a $30K car" option in the G35. It's nicer than it used to be but still low rent compared to Lexus or even Benz.
Already been through the lack of the manual on the best engine in the Accord. So we bought a 4 cylinder. Couldn't sit in the cloth seat EX so we had to buy a EX-L. Sometimes you just have to get what's available or move on.
Heck, even Ferrari is making fewer and fewer manual models. Sure Lexus could do better. But performance driving and manual transmssions are a Edmunds thing. The real world doesn't bear that out. If it did, we would still have a real MR2, Supra, RX7(with 2 doors), Camaro, and there would be more entry level sports sedans. There aren't.
No such luck but I'm sure there's a market for it. I would be interested in one, now more than ever with gas hitting a buck a litre here in the Toronto area. ($1.09/litre for premium) Doesn't it have a crazy high torque number as well? And being diesel it should start nice and low
Although we will not get an IS diesel in Canada, diesels up north are quite popular. A hefty portion of VW sales in Canada are diesels.
So obviously Lexus will address fuel efficiency with a hybrid IS for North Americans. My problem with hybrids for performance cars is the extra weight. Handling of the hybrid IS would definitely be affected. A lighter diesel with manual(better fuel efficency--another reason for such a tranny) would probably suit the needs of many who seek a combination of performance and frugality(diesels are cheaper than hybrids)
Unfortunately, the trend for 50k V6 sedans is there and like the RL, the M is priced right where it needs to be. I guess it's just sticker shock when an Acura TL or G35 provide plenty of power and features for 15k less.
And gee, I don't think 56k for an LS is ridiculous, what I meant was to offer a sunroof as an option is ridiculous. Now that's not the case anymore, but back in 2001 it was. :confuse:
I am anxiously counting the days (or months) till the IS arrives with a manual. I've never actually driven a Toyo with a manual so I'm curious to see how it compares to the Honda or BMW manuals I'm used to. :P
"Roadsters are far more about sportiness than sedans" from Merc's post. Thats not really true. The body style really has nothing to do with how sporty a car is or isnt. If a car is designed with driving as job one, its going to be sporty, regardless of the number of doors. Take the Evo MR for example. This machine is a lot more race-ready than most of the roadsters on the market. I would say that only the Lotus Elise really plays in this league.
Actually they are totally different cars. Lotus Elise is a sub-2000lb super-light designed and constructed for handling, whereas Evo MR is a 3200+lb porker exercise in turbo-charging. They are totally different cars. If power to weight ratio is all you care about, may as well toss in the 5000lb 500hp cayanne. What kind league would that be? ;-)
Back to the topic at hand, IS first and foreomst are sedans. Sedans have four doors and a useable trunk for utility reasons. As a general rule, Coupes shed two doors and shrink the trunk to get more sporty handling prowess. Two-seaters push along the curve even further. Of course, every rule has exceptions, but comtrasting Evo MR to Elise only goes to show my point. Evo MR, M5 and Cayanne Turbo can all be called sporty, but they are certainly not designed or built like Elise, whose sole mission is sportiness.
The reality is that an automatic tranny two-seater like the Crossfire SRT is winning comparos nowadays (against Boxster and 350Z, both are phenomenal sportscars). That goes to show that automatic trannies are quite well received even among the reviewers. For the general public that buy 90+% of cars automatic anyway (the percentage is even higher in premium market), the IS350 even in its automatic-only trim will be received very well indeed.
I dont think I'd call an Evo a "porker" exactly. I didnt mean that the Evo weighed 2000lbs, what I meant was that most of the roadsters on the market are "softer" than the Evo is.
Forget about under $30k or low 30k. Most of the ones stocked by dealers will probably be around $35k, as in over it.
That is how most of the ES are, no reason for this to be too different.
That's the sticker price I'm talking about of course. They may go well below for people who are persistent (I know someone who got a ES for $33k out the door and the only options it didn't have were Nav and fancy wheels).
I'm going to stick to the topic of the IS, but not necessarily the IS250. On Lexus's website, they had a short video showing a Lexus Exec unveil the IS350 (I believe at the Geneva Auto Show, not sure which one though). The specs for the IS350 sound too good to be true, which leads me to my next inquiry. I'm a young car guy who has always seen Toyota as probably the best manufactured car coming out of Japan (bare in mind I've never owned a Toyota but have owned a Nissan and a Honda), but always lacked styling and power. As a teenager, the Supra was one of my dream cars and will be looking forward to the futue Supra coming out in 07.
With regards to the video, the exec said the IS350 will have over 300 horsepower and over 275 Ib feet of torque. Now with those kind of numbers, the improved styling (hard to consider since the current IS is a sweet ride), and traditional Lexus reliability, the new IS350 seems to good to be true. But when I think of what the pricing will be, I stop myself from going into the Lexus dealer and looking to place a deposit on one. Like what stickguy said about the Infiniti M starting at $39,995 and ending up over $52k, what is the consensus of the pricing for the IS350. Are we talking about a nicely loaded IS350 for $38-$42k, or are we talking $45k plus. Maybe we're looking at $36-$38k. Well I know those prices seem unreasonable considering that the current IS starts at just around $30k, but there's alot more to offer with this vehicle.
Also, any idea on the details of the IS coupe? Will it be solely a coupe, or will it be a hard top convertible? How much of a price increase can be expected for the IS 350 coupe, and anyone have a clue on what the release date for the coupe would be. My guess would be spring-summer of 2006.
Overall, I think this car is right step for Lexus. I really wanted to get my hands on the current IS, but it was just too small. I'm 6'2" with broad shoulders and the current IS was just way too small for me. It seems that the current one will be a nice fit. Can't wait to see one at the local dealer!
Expect a retractable hardtop IS to fill both coupe and convertible roles, similar to the SC430. As for cost, not a clue, but it should come in less than an SLK350.
I kinda wonder if the IS coupe and/or convertible will fall under a different designation? Maybe CS?
Like some have mentioned here, I'm hoping the packages for the IS250 don't bring that 30k pricetag closer to 40k with an IS350 breaking the 50k barrier...
$40K? $50K!!? There is no way in the world that Lexus could even think about being able to command those prices. Models establish their price range in the market and regardless of how much they improve from one year to the next, those prices, once established, are difficult to increase. The IS has established itself as a high $20K/very low $30K nameplate. I don't care if they put a 500 hp engine in there, they are not going to be able to move them for much more than that. Just like VW couldn't move the W8 Passat at much more than $30K, instead of the nearly $40K sticker. The Passat was a mid $20K car and nothing they added to it was going to change that. Increases in horsepower, displacement and standard features have been done by many competing models with no significant price increase and that is what the market expects. The market will also dictate that the IS250 had better be cheaper than the IS300. A reduction in horsepower and displacement (and model number) had better be accompanied by a reduction in price or people won't even look at them. No matter what the reality is, the IS250 will be viewed as inferior to an IS300 With typically equipped G35s available for less than $30K, Lexus will not be able to go much higher than that for the IS.
I totally disagree. Lexus will be able to charge $40,000 for an IS 350 and get it. It is still cheaper than its #1 competitor, the BMW. The Passat is a poor example because it was an engine upgrade to an existing car that was late in its model cycle. The Lexus is all new, and the 3.5 is a place in the market the IS never held before. Many cars are redesigned and move up the price scale. Heck, look at a key IS competitor. The G35, which ranges up to $38,000, was a redesign of the G20 that was around $22,000. I for one do not view the IS 250 as inferior to the IS 300. Quote the opposite, I think it is superior in nearly every way.
higher than $30k or so, I'm waiting for the GTI. I already have 4 cars, I don't need the IS.
I don't think we can compare the G20 to the G35. No one even noticed the underpowered G20. So I bet more than half the G35 buyers have no idea there was a G20. The G35 moved waay upmarket from the G20 hence the increase in price. The IS will remain in it's same market position. And I agree the 250 should be a little cheaper than the 300 was.
Even though it has a V6, it's hardly bigger than the Camry I4. I realize it's a premium and all but it ain't gold.
But my brand loyalty is with Honda. I just really like this car. But I also think the GTI is gonna be pretty nifty. I ain't overpaying for a car I don't need.
I guess we'll have to wait and see. They can sticker it wherever they want. Even the current models sticker for up to $37K but they sell for a little over $30K. Same thing with the G35. They may have stickers up to $38K but they don't sell for that. And I don't think anyone considers the G35 to be an update to the G20. First of all, hardly anybody even knew the G20 existed. And secondly, there is absolutely no link between the two. The G20 was a fancied up Sentra, the G35 is pretty well known to be essentially a sedan version of the 350Z, so they have completely different heritages and reputations. BMW will always be able to fetch a substantial premium over an equivalent Lexus. Like it or not, the IS350 will need to be price competitive with the G35. I didn't say the IS250 would be inferior to the IS300, I said that that would be the market's perception and the market won't pay more for an IS250 than they did for an IS300. Maybe I should have said it would be perceived as a step down model, rather than an inferior model.
Total cubes may be misleading, but common sense dictates that if you can find a break down of cubes per front area, rear area, and cargo area, you have a generally good comparison point. Car and Driver lists the cubes per area, in all tests aside from 'Short Takes', and many sales brochures from the manufacturers offer that as well.
"Just like VW couldn't move the W8 Passat at much more than $30K, instead of the nearly $40K sticker. The Passat was a mid $20K car and nothing they added to it was going to change that."
There is a world of difference between VW and Lexus. The reason the Passat W8 did not sell was because it was sold as a VW. The most expensive VW a few years ago was about $30K and generally VW's sold in a narrow range from about $15K to $30K. Using the VW Passat failure as a template for Lexus and the IS250 is ludicrous. Lexus has been selling cars for some time now in a broader price range and ultimately higher price ranges. Prices for Lexus range from $30K up to $70K. See the difference?
"BMW will always be able to fetch a substantial premium over an equivalent Lexus. Like it or not, the IS350 will need to be price competitive with the G35. "
You should reconsider this statement. "Will always be able to fetch a substantial price premium". Some Lexus models today sell for similar prices to BMWs and the variances are narrowing with each generation. 15 years ago, a LS was cheaper than a BMW 5-series with a 6-cylinder. Today the LS is priced above a 540i. Take a look at the new GS430, it can sticker for basically the same as a 540i at about $60K. Take a look at the LX470, it runs $72K which is more expensive than the most expensive BMW mainstream SUV.
You can pick apart the Passat example but the fact remains that you can't generally make a big jump up in price with the same model. You can creep up but you can't make a huge leap. I don't think people will pay $40K for an IS350. They can sticker it there and get the "first on my block" guys but by the second model year, I doubt they will be able to get more than $35K for them. As for comparisons to BMW, I have never seen the LS considered to be in the same class as the 5-series. It is always compared to the 7-series (and S-class)and it is substantially cheaper than those. Likewise, the LX does not compete with the X-5. They are in completely different classes and always have been. The LX is usually considered to compete with vehicles like the Range Rover. I have to admit that I don't know what GSs sell for but regardless of what the sticker says, they have been such slow movers that it hard for me to believe that they sell for anywhere near what the equivalent 5 series sells for (again, excluding the first on your block guys). Also, for the LS and GS, BMW probably helped Lexus out a lot by coming up with very unpopular redesigns for the 7 and 5 series. Indications are that they are not going to make that mistake with the 3 series.
I just checked on Edmunds for a comparison between the GS and 5 series. A fully loaded GS430 stickers at $61K but a similarly equiped 545 stickers at $71K. On top of that, the difference between sticker and invoice is only about $5K for the 5 sereies but it is over $10K for the GS. Seems like Lexus left a lot of room for discounts there.
Maxhonda- I agree with the above stated by fredmcmurray, and for what its worth, the BMW 545i STARTS at $56,495, whereas the Lexus GS tops out at $62K with everything. Where does the 545i top out? $70,925 (including just a few items unavailable on the Lexus, such as a 20 way power drivers seat and rear seat heaters... Otherwise, its pretty much a wash).
I expect that the IS350 will top out at 43K with all the goodies, which I think is fine, given that the 530i tops at 50K and will have a less powerful engine (but yes, a manual).
Fred has good points that I won't ignore and argue against, except to say that I hope the IS350 lightly loaded stickers at $40K. That is my sweet spot, otherwise I'm heading the other way and buying a lightly used e49 330i for a lot less than that.
But I suspect a 300+hp car from Lexus will not sticker under $40K, seeing that a V8 300HP GS430 stickers in the low-to-mid $50K range.
"BMW will always be able to fetch a substantial premium over an equivalent Lexus. Like it or not, the IS350 will need to be price competitive with the G35. "
A premium for what? If any marque sells for a premium it has to be justified! If prices are not justified then the BMW premium will go downhill as the premiums of Jags and MBs have done these past few years and decades.
If the BMW DNA(agility,handling,performanace) becomes non-distinct by brutal competition, then the BMW premium will exist only in our memories.
This whole idea that IS does not compete with BMW3 series is very timid thinking. Lexus LS has shown what happens to companies like MB/Jag that rely on prestige/tradition. Inititave and not timidity can accomplish more than what anybody would expect. And the LS has proved that! The IS seems to be another matter altogether.
Lack of tranny options for the IS350(a option that is essential for any serious comptetion to the 3series) and no sportcross(these vehicles are currenty making a comeback with a vengeance) indicates that Lexus is not putting too much faith in its new offspring called the IS.
Your points are well taken. My perspective is the IS is not really jumping up in price. The IS 250, which will be the core model, will be very comparable to the IS 300 in price. It's just that Lexus is adding an entirely new model with a higher price. They are not making a huge leap in price, rather they are expanding the model line with a higher-priced version. As for people paying $40,000 for an IS 350, I will be one of them. I think it is a reasonable price for a well-equipped car with 300+ horsepower.
The IS350 going from about $35K loaded for a IS300 now to $40K is a big jump??? I don't see that as a big jump. $5K for a improved product in just about every way is small. Second, first year people will pay $40K for it because it will sell at MSRP, but obviously negotiated prices will come down. That has nothing to do with the fact that it's a Lexus, even BMWs are sold at discounts on a regular basis.
"As for comparisons to BMW, I have never seen the LS considered to be in the same class as the 5-series"
You do realize when the LS first came out in 1990, it was more of a 5-series competitor than a 7-series due to price??? That's what I meant. In 1990, a LS400 started at $35K and loaded was about $42K. Back than a BMW 7-series was over $50K starting. The 5-series at the time was more in the ballpark of the LS's price. Over the years, the LS has crept up in price closer to the BMW 7-series' range.
"just checked on Edmunds for a comparison between the GS and 5 series. A fully loaded GS430 stickers at $61K but a similarly equiped 545 stickers at $71K. "
How many 545i's do you think dealers get that even sticker for $71K??? I bet not many. Majority probably sticker in the low to mid $60K range. And the majority of GS430's probably sticker in the high $50s. Pretty close in price.
The only luxury (entry-lux) car with 300HP motor and priced under $40K is the Infiniti G35 Coupe. Every other V6/V8-engined sedans with 300+HP retails north of $50K (M45, GS430, 545i, E500, RL). So to expect that an IS350 with 300+HP/275+ Ibft of torque, with a new slick design, VDIM, 6-speed tranny, and many goodies to retail under $40K is wishful thinking. And Lexus has certainly earned the right to charge premium as with BMW, as the new GS sedans are doing with basically new exterior styling and not much changes in engine displacement/torque/power.
I expect an IS350 base (if you can find one) to retail at $38,995 (about an $8K spread with the base IS250) and fully loaded at the mid-$40K range. Since VDIM is standard, all I need is to add moonroof and Nav/ML. If I can get this in the low low $40-41K + TTL, I am a buyer....That car will be dynamite....
I expect that the IS350 will top out at 43K with all the goodies, which I think is fine, given that the 530i tops at 50K and will have a less powerful engine (but yes, a manual).
The 530i tops out at a mind numbing 65k. You probably were referring to the new 330i which does top out at around 50k and will compete directly with the IS. I think the IS350 will start around 37k and go up to around 44k, which is very similar to most of the numbers being thrown around.
I think some people in here are way off the mark. The IS350 will compete with the G35, 330i, TL, C350. The TL and G35 are only 33k for 270 & 280 hp. Just because the IS350 will have 300+ doesn't command that much of a premium. In a few years, the other competitors will be 300+ too. It's just the way the market is headed. I see a fully loaded IS350 topping out at 40k...right where the GS starts. If the IS250 is starting below 30k (and believe me it will), then the 350 will have to begin no higher than 34-35k. Several thousand under the 330i. $45k for an IS350 is ridiculous...perhaps the hard top conv will be that price
I agree with TSX24 on pricing as well as the competition, but we'll see. As with everyone in here, I'm really excited to see the upcoming IS and especially the IS coupe with the hardtop convertible. Up until the new photos and information was released, I was dead set on a G35 coupe. Now the IS is the car I'm eyeing, but the pricing is a major concern.
The C350 is the highest price competitor for the IS, starting right under $40k and I'm sure getting up to $50k with the hundreds of options that MBZ offers. The low end would be the G35, but I got to think that the IS will be priced closer to the C350 and less towards the G35. The IS350 should start just around $35-$37, and then offer packages ranging from $2k-$5k extra. My hunch is that this car can easily reach $45k with front and rear sensors, navigation, and all the other goodies. Out of all the options, I'm hopeful that they make the same Mark Levinson audio package seen in the GS also available for the IS as well.
Finally, some support. You guys go ahead and pay over $40K for an IS350. I'll wait a year or so and get mine for $35K. Oh wait a minute, I just bought my IS a year and a half ago, I probably won't be shopping again for nearly ten years. Probably be looking a fuel cell ISs by then
Comments
It makes no sense that Lexus options are packaged this way, when Toyota cars can be optioned with just the moonroof.
I have never ordered a car, but if one could be ordered with just the moonroof, I might consider it. And if the base sticker were $28,995 instead, so much the better (I am an optimisit!). :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Criticism is just that: debating the apparent strengths and weaknesses. Bashing is something else.
I am with you on this. On my part I have been critical as well, but have resolved to take a wait-and-see approach until the car gets here and we can all get to test drive it. For one, I think an IS250 with horses less than 210 will be a disappointment. Yes, I know its not all about hp, but you cannot price a 2.5L-engined car (<210hp) similar to the 3L (215hp) car it replaces as base sticker. Unless Lexus throws in a bunch of goodies as standard features.
An IS350 that comes loaded at $45K will be a huge stretch for me personally. I'd have to order one that will cost right around $40K tops ! At $40K, I'd better get a lotta goodies (I am a goodies fan, hence I own an LS) on this car. I am not just buying the 300+hp 3.5L-engined car, I want *most* of the goodies too. Otherwise I am going the other way to the Bimmer (ooppppsss... I said it).
The style is excellent, the interior is typical Lexus (top notch) and I believe it will sell much better than the first gen based on the more "adult" direction of the new car (No offense to those who have first generation owners).
And like "wale" I too would appreciate a new Sportcross at some point in the model cycle.
To me, balance is more important than brute force. I don't mind making the car work to earn it's keep on occassion.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Now, the base price was $39,995, but it had a jaw dropping luxo package of over 10K, plus a few misc. itens.
Now, this did have a video system, navi, back up camera, and lots more junk I would probably never use, but it was amazing to see the price.
Point? Hope Lexus doesn't make the one or 2 things you really want (moonroof, maybe a nice stereo), only part of a 4K option package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
"Hope Lexus doesn't make the one or 2 things you really want (moonroof, maybe a nice stereo), only part of a 4K option package"
Good point, I hope it doesn't happen here too. Doesn't the LS430 have that issue? I believe the Sunroof and the Mark Levinson are options after you've ponied up for the 56k price for the vehicle which is ridiculous IMO.
I agree that the FM platform is world-class and have for 3 years since I test drove my first G35. Its amazing how well the FM cars handle, especially considering how large they are inside and out. The new IS 350 will be 6 inches shorter in overall length and 5 inches shorter in wheelbase than the G35, but weigh basically the same. The shorter length might make the IS more tossable, but the same weight might hold it back, so there are too many variables to decide one way or another. We will have to wait for the actual car.
Comparing the new IS to the new GS it is 10 inches shorter overall and 5 inches shorter in wheelbase. Combine that with the fact that entry-level sedans are usually tuned more aggressively than mid-luxury, and the IS should be much more capable than the new GS.
Will it matter if the electronics shut off all the fun? No. Could Lexus overreact and make the new IS too soft in order to contrast with the old low-selling one? Absolutely! Yet they may just have the foresight to keep the single best feature of the old one, which was its handling. And the fact that the IS remains small in the class at the size of the new 3 and A4 seems to indicate to me that they were possibly still considering handling while designing it. We shall see in time.
One item not covered in this forum is the diesel IS available in Europe. That excites me. I am willing to sacrifice some performance for fuel efficiency. I dont know what the specs are for the diesel IS but I do know that a BMW330d can do 7.4 0-60 and achieve combined mpg in the mid 40s. Those are pretty good specs.
The reason IS is a little heavy for its size is bound to be that it shares platforms with the larger heavier GS.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Next IS will be the best-looking "sports" sedan in it's very competitive $30-40k class. This includes the A4.
The list of STD. features is outstanding! I have want for nothing on the options list but the roof! In that respect, it is an AWESOME value.
If viewed in a VACUUM, the Next IS with approx. 208HP will be a very appealing, if not fully entertaining ride. It's power to weight ratio holds down the accolades enough.
My issues are with how Lexus has promoted it as some super-"sports-sedan", then dials down the power on the volume model, but over-delivers on the expensive model, then hamstrings it with super-slush. Feels, smells, fairly reeks of bait and switch.
This car has the tools. Like the GS, there is a great car in there. Lexus is trying to hide it. Why?
The mags say they succeeded (in hiding the goods) with the GS. I fear the same fate has befallen the IS. What a waste.
STILL, a 200HP with moonroof for $31k is a good buy.
A 296HP G35 with 6speed for $33k is a PHENOMONAL buy!
90HP, MT, and more room (still with a tight suspension) makes a big difference, to me.
Lexus can do better. That's my point.
'
DrFill
Nothing in this world remains still forever, especially the G35. Imagine how the the IS250 will stack up against the G35 in two years when that model is renewed, For 2k more the difference gap between an IS and G will be even wider.
Already been through the lack of the manual on the best engine in the Accord. So we bought a 4 cylinder. Couldn't sit in the cloth seat EX so we had to buy a EX-L. Sometimes you just have to get what's available or move on.
Heck, even Ferrari is making fewer and fewer manual models. Sure Lexus could do better. But performance driving and manual transmssions are a Edmunds thing. The real world doesn't bear that out. If it did, we would still have a real MR2, Supra, RX7(with 2 doors), Camaro, and there would be more entry level sports sedans. There aren't.
Doesn't it have a crazy high torque number as well? And being diesel it should start nice and low
A hefty portion of VW sales in Canada are diesels.
So obviously Lexus will address fuel efficiency with a hybrid IS for North Americans. My problem with hybrids for performance cars is the extra weight. Handling of the hybrid IS would definitely be affected. A lighter diesel with manual(better fuel efficency--another reason for such a tranny) would probably suit the needs of many who seek a combination of performance and frugality(diesels are cheaper than hybrids)
And gee, I don't think 56k for an LS is ridiculous, what I meant was to offer a sunroof as an option is ridiculous. Now that's not the case anymore, but back in 2001 it was. :confuse:
I am anxiously counting the days (or months) till the IS arrives with a manual. I've never actually driven a Toyo with a manual so I'm curious to see how it compares to the Honda or BMW manuals I'm used to. :P
Actually they are totally different cars. Lotus Elise is a sub-2000lb super-light designed and constructed for handling, whereas Evo MR is a 3200+lb porker exercise in turbo-charging. They are totally different cars. If power to weight ratio is all you care about, may as well toss in the 5000lb 500hp cayanne. What kind league would that be? ;-)
Back to the topic at hand, IS first and foreomst are sedans. Sedans have four doors and a useable trunk for utility reasons. As a general rule, Coupes shed two doors and shrink the trunk to get more sporty handling prowess. Two-seaters push along the curve even further. Of course, every rule has exceptions, but comtrasting Evo MR to Elise only goes to show my point. Evo MR, M5 and Cayanne Turbo can all be called sporty, but they are certainly not designed or built like Elise, whose sole mission is sportiness.
The reality is that an automatic tranny two-seater like the Crossfire SRT is winning comparos nowadays (against Boxster and 350Z, both are phenomenal sportscars). That goes to show that automatic trannies are quite well received even among the reviewers. For the general public that buy 90+% of cars automatic anyway (the percentage is even higher in premium market), the IS350 even in its automatic-only trim will be received very well indeed.
I guess the only real comparable Toyota stick would be in the old Supra. Might be the same unit, becasue that is basically where the engine came from.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
That is how most of the ES are, no reason for this to be too different.
That's the sticker price I'm talking about of course. They may go well below for people who are persistent (I know someone who got a ES for $33k out the door and the only options it didn't have were Nav and fancy wheels).
With regards to the video, the exec said the IS350 will have over 300 horsepower and over 275 Ib feet of torque. Now with those kind of numbers, the improved styling (hard to consider since the current IS is a sweet ride), and traditional Lexus reliability, the new IS350 seems to good to be true. But when I think of what the pricing will be, I stop myself from going into the Lexus dealer and looking to place a deposit on one. Like what stickguy said about the Infiniti M starting at $39,995 and ending up over $52k, what is the consensus of the pricing for the IS350. Are we talking about a nicely loaded IS350 for $38-$42k, or are we talking $45k plus. Maybe we're looking at $36-$38k. Well I know those prices seem unreasonable considering that the current IS starts at just around $30k, but there's alot more to offer with this vehicle.
Also, any idea on the details of the IS coupe? Will it be solely a coupe, or will it be a hard top convertible? How much of a price increase can be expected for the IS 350 coupe, and anyone have a clue on what the release date for the coupe would be. My guess would be spring-summer of 2006.
Overall, I think this car is right step for Lexus. I really wanted to get my hands on the current IS, but it was just too small. I'm 6'2" with broad shoulders and the current IS was just way too small for me. It seems that the current one will be a nice fit. Can't wait to see one at the local dealer!
Like some have mentioned here, I'm hoping the packages for the IS250 don't bring that 30k pricetag closer to 40k with an IS350 breaking the 50k barrier...
There is no way in the world that Lexus could even think about being able to command those prices.
Models establish their price range in the market and regardless of how much they improve from one year to the next, those prices, once established, are difficult to increase.
The IS has established itself as a high $20K/very low $30K nameplate. I don't care if they put a 500 hp engine in there, they are not going to be able to move them for much more than that. Just like VW couldn't move the W8 Passat at much more than $30K, instead of the nearly $40K sticker. The Passat was a mid $20K car and nothing they added to it was going to change that.
Increases in horsepower, displacement and standard features have been done by many competing models with no significant price increase and that is what the market expects. The market will also dictate that the IS250 had better be cheaper than the IS300. A reduction in horsepower and displacement (and model number) had better be accompanied by a reduction in price or people won't even look at them. No matter what the reality is, the IS250 will be viewed as inferior to an IS300
With typically equipped G35s available for less than $30K, Lexus will not be able to go much higher than that for the IS.
I don't think we can compare the G20 to the G35. No one even noticed the underpowered G20. So I bet more than half the G35 buyers have no idea there was a G20. The G35 moved waay upmarket from the G20 hence the increase in price. The IS will remain in it's same market position. And I agree the 250 should be a little cheaper than the 300 was.
Even though it has a V6, it's hardly bigger than the Camry I4. I realize it's a premium and all but it ain't gold.
Sounds like a VW, not a Lexus?
And I don't think anyone considers the G35 to be an update to the G20. First of all, hardly anybody even knew the G20 existed. And secondly, there is absolutely no link between the two. The G20 was a fancied up Sentra, the G35 is pretty well known to be essentially a sedan version of the 350Z, so they have completely different heritages and reputations.
BMW will always be able to fetch a substantial premium over an equivalent Lexus. Like it or not, the IS350 will need to be price competitive with the G35.
I didn't say the IS250 would be inferior to the IS300, I said that that would be the market's perception and the market won't pay more for an IS250 than they did for an IS300. Maybe I should have said it would be perceived as a step down model, rather than an inferior model.
~alpha
There is a world of difference between VW and Lexus. The reason the Passat W8 did not sell was because it was sold as a VW. The most expensive VW a few years ago was about $30K and generally VW's sold in a narrow range from about $15K to $30K. Using the VW Passat failure as a template for Lexus and the IS250 is ludicrous. Lexus has been selling cars for some time now in a broader price range and ultimately higher price ranges. Prices for Lexus range from $30K up to $70K. See the difference?
You should reconsider this statement. "Will always be able to fetch a substantial price premium". Some Lexus models today sell for similar prices to BMWs and the variances are narrowing with each generation. 15 years ago, a LS was cheaper than a BMW 5-series with a 6-cylinder. Today the LS is priced above a 540i. Take a look at the new GS430, it can sticker for basically the same as a 540i at about $60K. Take a look at the LX470, it runs $72K which is more expensive than the most expensive BMW mainstream SUV.
As for comparisons to BMW, I have never seen the LS considered to be in the same class as the 5-series. It is always compared to the 7-series (and S-class)and it is substantially cheaper than those. Likewise, the LX does not compete with the X-5. They are in completely different classes and always have been. The LX is usually considered to compete with vehicles like the Range Rover. I have to admit that I don't know what GSs sell for but regardless of what the sticker says, they have been such slow movers that it hard for me to believe that they sell for anywhere near what the equivalent 5 series sells for (again, excluding the first on your block guys).
Also, for the LS and GS, BMW probably helped Lexus out a lot by coming up with very unpopular redesigns for the 7 and 5 series. Indications are that they are not going to make that mistake with the 3 series.
I expect that the IS350 will top out at 43K with all the goodies, which I think is fine, given that the 530i tops at 50K and will have a less powerful engine (but yes, a manual).
~alpha
But I suspect a 300+hp car from Lexus will not sticker under $40K, seeing that a V8 300HP GS430 stickers in the low-to-mid $50K range.
A premium for what? If any marque sells for a premium it has to be justified! If prices are not justified then the BMW premium will go downhill as the premiums of Jags and MBs have done these past few years and decades.
If the BMW DNA(agility,handling,performanace) becomes non-distinct by brutal competition, then the BMW premium will exist only in our memories.
This whole idea that IS does not compete with BMW3 series is very timid thinking. Lexus LS has shown what happens to companies like MB/Jag that rely on prestige/tradition. Inititave and not timidity can accomplish more than what anybody would expect. And the LS has proved that! The IS seems to be another matter altogether.
Lack of tranny options for the IS350(a option that is essential for any serious comptetion to the 3series) and no sportcross(these vehicles are currenty making a comeback with a vengeance) indicates that Lexus is not putting too much faith in its new offspring called the IS.
"As for comparisons to BMW, I have never seen the LS considered to be in the same class as the 5-series"
You do realize when the LS first came out in 1990, it was more of a 5-series competitor than a 7-series due to price??? That's what I meant. In 1990, a LS400 started at $35K and loaded was about $42K. Back than a BMW 7-series was over $50K starting. The 5-series at the time was more in the ballpark of the LS's price. Over the years, the LS has crept up in price closer to the BMW 7-series' range.
How many 545i's do you think dealers get that even sticker for $71K??? I bet not many. Majority probably sticker in the low to mid $60K range. And the majority of GS430's probably sticker in the high $50s. Pretty close in price.
I expect an IS350 base (if you can find one) to retail at $38,995 (about an $8K spread with the base IS250) and fully loaded at the mid-$40K range. Since VDIM is standard, all I need is to add moonroof and Nav/ML. If I can get this in the low low $40-41K + TTL, I am a buyer....That car will be dynamite....
The 530i tops out at a mind numbing 65k. You probably were referring to the new 330i which does top out at around 50k and will compete directly with the IS. I think the IS350 will start around 37k and go up to around 44k, which is very similar to most of the numbers being thrown around.
The C350 is the highest price competitor for the IS, starting right under $40k and I'm sure getting up to $50k with the hundreds of options that MBZ offers. The low end would be the G35, but I got to think that the IS will be priced closer to the C350 and less towards the G35. The IS350 should start just around $35-$37, and then offer packages ranging from $2k-$5k extra. My hunch is that this car can easily reach $45k with front and rear sensors, navigation, and all the other goodies. Out of all the options, I'm hopeful that they make the same Mark Levinson audio package seen in the GS also available for the IS as well.
Oh wait a minute, I just bought my IS a year and a half ago, I probably won't be shopping again for nearly ten years. Probably be looking a fuel cell ISs by then