the rhetoric sounds the same because i was originally posting as "v_tech" when the current IS came out. you should remember as i single handedly turned many threads into the top ten discussions with my anti-bmw rhetoric.
the proof is in the pudding already shipo. you know that magazine called consumer reports??? for a couple years they were RECOMMENDING the IS not the 3 series, not the A4, and definitely not the C class. recently they said the 3 series and the A4 have improved their egregious maintenance track record and are now recommending them but like somebody said the data is so skewed. how can we believe that bmw and audi are really getting better??? you don't have to even wonder about the quality of a lexus.
hey folks, i have said it before many times to all the bimmer lovers when the first IS came out. how much does the 225hp 330i cost??? on many occasions including all the test cars in the mags 42-45K. if we made a IS300 with a sticker of 42-45K i'd bet it could easily have 265-270hp with a supercharger, intake and with a all leather no plastic interior. what do you all think??? geezzzzzzz
fair enough really. the sportiness of a bmw combined with ride quality is pretty much unmatched. the current IS is not chopped liver though as far as handling goes. the ride is stiff but i like that. it is silky smooth and quiet enough. the looks aren't for everyone yes but how can you not like the looks of the new IS??? what do you want the new IS to be for you??? handling, power, braking, interior appointments. the current IS is as nimble and tossable as they come. the drive is not that crappy either. the new car should have a better smoother ride i am sure. we'll all be shocked if it can't better the current car in ride quality and handling.
"...i just like to stick it to all the anti-lexus, anti-IS haters..."
Interesting, I came to this discussion because I really wanted to have a non-BMW option for my next car. An IS350 with a three pedal six speed manual transmission would have been just the ticket. Unfortunately, all of the blind/heavily pro-Lexus bias that I have had to endure simply because I will not have an automatic transmission in my garage has so soured me on Lexus in general and the IS in particular that I'm not sure that I'd get one even if the IS350 did offer the manual transmission.
Look, I'm not the one advancing the theory that IS300 failed because it did not have manual stick shift in the first model year. Several stick fans did. I was pointing out IS300 failed because its interior and its being too pure of a sportscar (I used the phrase "practially a 2+2 sports car with two extradoors attached") SO PLEASE REDIRECT YOUR "I find much of what you have written to be biased and disingenuous" COMMENT TOWARDS PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CLAIMED THAT IS300 FAILED BECAUSE IT DID NOT HAVE MANUAL STICK IN THE FIRST YEAR. There are quite a few to choose from.
Thank you for sharing your annecdotal experience with your BMW. Mine was quite different. It was in the shop at least every other month. Statistics seem to have made a definitive statement on BMW's reliability vs. that of Lexus; we have no need to waste time on that.
So your conclusion is that people that want stick (whiners and bashers) will never buy a lexus anyway, and you "applaud" lexus for not asking them to consider lexus.
Why so much hate? Manual tranny is just like any other options in a car.
Hello?? I've been wrongly accused of being a corporate apologist, and my valid argument has be called "specious" without any logical rebuttal, now you are calling me a hater? For the record, I have no issue with people who prefer manual and lay down the money when the manufactur makes one, like my Best Man did when G35 manual was introduced; unfortunately there aren't enough real men like him, who puts money where his mouth is when it comes to manual sports-lux sedans. If Lexus is planning on selling 50k IS350 annually (i.e. no IS250 at all), I'd applaud them for having a manual IS350 in the first year as the projected manual sales would be around 5k units and probably self-financing. The reality is that Lexus is only planning on selling 9k IS350 annually, of which statisticly speaking only 900 units will be manual. There's just no way 900 units can finance the cost of federal certification. That means the cost would have to be absorbed by IS350 automatic buyers. Mercedes ships about 1000 units of SL roadster every month, yet it has not found it economicly sensible to make a manual SL for the US. That's for a roadster! which obviously puts more emphasis on driving experience than mere sedans, and a car that has an $80k price tag to play the game of amortizing certification cost.
Whether manual or automatic is better is entirely besides the point for me, in case you still have not got the drift of my posts, what matters is that manual advocates need to stump up the money where their mouth is and carry their own weight, so to speak. I'm not interested in subsidizing someone else' car purchase or "passion."
Oh, in case there is still any wonder, I don't care if Lexus offers Nav, or even a kitchen sink in the backseat if they can get a decent mark-up for it (from some other buyer, obviously). Backseat kitchen sink requires no federal certification, and minimal amount of engineering effort is involved, and I'm sure Lexus will include that only if and as soon as it makes money like Nav and Mark Levinson etc.. The manual tranny is a little different in that it requires a large upfront cost that needs to be amortized through vehicle sales. When the total production for IS350 is only 9k units a year, of which 10% might be manual, there just isn't enough cars to amortize the up front cost. That's why I applaud Lexus for not wasting money in the first year.
So then this is the forum to discuss a manual transmission in the IS350 which will never exist??? OK, OK just wanted to make sure I was in the right place. :lemon:
Think about it again. This combo is pure genius in its plan. How ?
An IS250 is an upgrade to the IS200 (Europe), slots in at the low-end of the Lexus line in the all-important NA market, and with optional features can adequately challenge cars from the TSX, 325i, Audi 1.8T/2.0, all the way to a TL. And then you can go against the top of the market space - 330i and G35, even remotely an RL, with the 300+hp IS350. The latter has a higher HP, higher torque, and with new aggressive body styling and excellent interior ergonomics, a sleek 6A tranny with paddle shift, and luxury features rivaling the top-dog LS, should keep this car at par with the competition here.
And then comes the hardtop coupe and the hybrid. The latter is a very important entry in this sector. Why ? Cos it annihilates every other car in the space. Only an M3 can remotely even dare compete with an IS450h pumping out a class-leading 350+HP (speculative) and about same or higher torque, all at mid-20mpg fuel efficiency. Wanna imagine what this car will do 0-60 or in 1/4-mile ?.
All of these can be achieved within the next 24 months ! Afterall, Lexus already promised the IS hybrid will be here before the next LS comes in the Fall of 2006, so expect the IS450h right after the GS450h arrives in showrooms next Spring.
Beautifully laid out plan, don't you think ???
Now what was it you manual-bias fans were saying about Lexus not coming to play with the big boys ??? You gotta wait and see the plan unfold. Don't look at these releases in isolation, otherwise you'd miss the real story. Stay tuned folks...
So then this is the forum to discuss a manual transmission in the IS350 which will never exist??? OK, OK just wanted to make sure I was in the right place
The discussion would have "IS" in it ;-) I can easily write three pages on introductory statistics (and why JD Powers survey works) but I surmise it will be yanked by the host as it would indeed be way off topic. The manual tranny discussion is getting a bit old, but apparently the stick fans are only beginning to get their minds around the economics involved and what I was saying. It's sad how they kept harping about G35 manual etc. without realizing that Infinity sells 70k G35 a year, and Lexus is only planning on selling 9k IS350 in the first year, an order of magnitude difference. Not to mention that G35 manuals are piling up on dealer lots due to lack of buyers even as we type. All those who want an IS350 manual should really take another look at the G35 manual, it's less expensive, and more importantly it's here now! And by buying one, you will keep the manual flame alive! Of course, some self-proclaimed "dreamers" would never buy a Japanese SportLux in their worst nightmare. Lexus would be wasting money chasing them indeed.
" Only an M3 can remotely even dare compete with an IS450h pumping out a class-leading 350+HP (speculative) and about same or higher torque"
What? Since when is 350hp class leading? The CTS-V, the next M3, the RS4, and C55 all have V8s, ranging from 362hp for the Merc to 415hp for the Audi. You can bet that MB will not sit idly by while BMW and Audi outpower them either.
after reading some of these posts I thought I was in a BMW forum or anti-BMW forum.
What a surprise it was to find out that this is actually an IS forum
Visit the 06 BMW 3 series forum and you will notice the IS is barely mentioned. Complete indifference about the IS. If only some BMW forum members were a bit insecure about a manual IS350, maybe just maybe they would bash the IS a bit more than they do now. :P
HE CURRENT IS already has more standard features than your average bmw. fogs, suspension, xenons, cd changer, better stereo, and more. this new car will be fast, will look good, will offer the goods inside, it will have the promise of reliability. just order one blue guy. just order it. thanks
The next one makes xenons optional. weird. regardless, I'd never order i car i haven't driven. if i were to base my desicion on the last IS, wow, I'd never go near lexus again. luckily i'm open minded enough to drive it before making a final judgment.
The CTS-V, the next M3, the RS4, and C55 all have V8s, ranging from 362hp for the Merc to 415hp for the Audi.
We are talking V6 engines here, putting the 3.5L V6-based 450h setup in the entry-level lux IS. For this class, an IS450h will be class-leading indeed. Do you know of any entry-level lux sports sedan from MB, BMW, Audi with 350+ ponies/350+Ibft of torque under their hood ?
ello?? I've been wrongly accused of being a corporate apologist, and my valid argument has be called "specious" without any logical rebuttal, now you are calling me a hater?
As long as you keep saying lexus is right for not offering a manual with an is350 and keep saying it was a sound financial decision I'll stand by my claim that your argument is specious and you're a corporate apologist. Lexus right or wrong seems to be your motto. Either that or you work for toyota.
That's why I applaud Lexus for not wasting money in the first year.
there it is again you're applauding a company as you gain something from their decision. I don't care if lexus goes out of business the day after i buy my is350 with manual. NMP. I don't care if BMW goes under tonight. NMP. I don't buy a brand - i buy a car. The company's finances are of zero concern to me.
You've got some other interest in lexus selling a half-baked is. the rest of us can't grasp your agenda but you like to hide it behind phantom certification costs or a weird idea that this extreme cost would result in lexus jacking up the price of the car. no evidence but you spout it anyway. as if this is a fact of life...put a manual is a car and it's pricey and for that reason it'll price the car higher. yeah show us the certification costs...
"You've got some other interest in lexus selling a half-baked is. the rest of us can't grasp your agenda".
Blue guy - "the rest of us" ?? - you do not speak for me. I do not see any flaws in the points that Brightness, and others, have made that are not in agreement with your posts/philosophy.
Back to Lexus and the IS: A couple of interesting quotes: "Only BMW sells enough manual transmission equipped midsize sedans to make developing and certifying them worth the effort and expense" ((May Motor Trend, GS300 review pg. 64).
"MB, BMW and Audi should start worrying now: Toyota is getting serious about the Lexus....it's has already given Lexus autonomous design, development and engineering departments. The next gen ES300, a Camry under the skin, will be the last Lexus designed to share duty as a Toyota." (May Motor Trend, pg. 32).
In this case Lexus isn't even trying to "take over the market" with the IS. Just as Acura did with offering a 4 cylinder in the TSX. They set the business plan with a certain number of sales (15,000). Anything above that is gravy.
Lexus is doing the same thing with the IS. They are basing the ommission of the MT IS350 on the fact that they will more than likely still be able to sell evrerything they build anyway. Since they are in the business to make money, that is the the first and foremost priority. Last I checked, Acura is selling the TSX well above predictions and they are happy. Maybe the NEXT TSX will have a V6 and possibly even AWD. But for this model, they seem to have gotten the supply vs. demand thing just right. And as for the IS250, I'm willing to bet that it'll be a while before you'll be able to walk up to the dealership and have a great selection to pick from. And with even the manual 250's coming out 2 months after introduction. I don't plan to get mine until Christmas 2006. And those that want a manual 350 will have to wait for either the mid-run refresh in a couple years or maybe even the third gen IS.
"MB, BMW and Audi should start worrying now: Toyota is getting serious about the Lexus....it's has already given Lexus autonomous design, development and engineering departments."
The new GS is a product of the above approach. Based on that model the competition definitely will have a perpetual grin on their faces if Lexus endeavors continue in that direction.
"Only BMW sells enough manual transmission equipped midsize sedans to make developing and certifying them worth the effort and expense"
Sounds like BMW has a monopoly on a very important niche(despite some forum member here who think mt buyers are a Dodo Bird phenemona)
Dewey - your input: "The new GS is a product of the above approach. Based on that model the competition definitely will have a perpetual grin on their faces if Lexus endeavors continue in that direction."
Reality: The Lexus Division reported its best-ever March with total sales of 25,471 units for the month. ... GS sales were boosted by the launch of the all-new 2006 GS 300 and GS 430 luxury performance sedans in late February. The GS 300 had sales of 2,482, an increase of 428.8 percent, ...the GS 430 posted sales of 727, an increase of 914.6 percent.. ((04/01/2005 Torrance, CA))
This would point to general Lexus success, I believe.
Is it not repeated here like a broken record: IS350--no mt, IS350 no mt, IS350 no mt. Has this anything to do with BMW?
Except the point of the broken record is to "prove" that "therefore IS350 doesnt really compete with BMW" That's all it's about. Some, if not all, of the most fervent stick advocates here would not buy IS350 manual even if there were one; e.g. Merc1, who hates Lexus by its very existence; Bluedotdude, who is locked in on a ZHP lease.
Brightness04 you are in denial about the above truth. My suggestion to you is take a few deep breaths and repeat the following mantra: "The IS350 would be more competitive with a manual option" Keep on repeating the mantra everyday for ten minutes and the Truth shall set you free!
Truth needs no repeating, only lies repeated enough times might pretend to be the truth. Offering IS350 manual option on a 900-unit annual production basis would make the whole IS350 project more costly, hence making the IS350 more expensive; that would not make the model more competitive at all. If you can't get your brain around this simple fact, try this: why isn't BMW offering a 333hp 3.2L in the first model year for E90? or a coupe or a convertible E90 all this model year?? A company has to spread out its cash flow and engineering resources over time.
I fail to understand your logic. How is the IS450h (a complete rumor by the way, the official line from Lexus is still "NO" to a hybrid IS.) in any way "entry level"? Isnt that the IS250? If a loaded IS350 is $40k+, an IS450h would be a minimum of $45K. Thats right into 400hp CTS-V money. If the 3 series is entry level, but the M3 is not, doesnt that make a specialty IS450h not entry level?
Is the current I6 powered M3 entry level, but because the next generation will have a 400hp V8, its no longer entry level? Can you explain this to me? The last time I checked, the C class, A4, and 3 series are the entry level luxury sports sedans from Mercedes, Audi, and BMW respectively. Wether the AMG, RS, or Motorsport versions of these cars are V6 or V12 powered doesnt change that. So, yes, all three have entry level luxury sports sedans with a lot more than 350hp and 350ft.lbs of torque.
there were one; e.g. Merc1, who hates Lexus by its very existence; Bluedotdude, who is locked in on a ZHP lease.
May of 06...that's 13 months from now and only 7 months after the release of the IS. And by the way, if I see a car I want NOW, i'll buy it. Cars are toys, not investments.
I fail to understand your logic. How is the IS450h (a complete rumor by the way, the official line from Lexus is still "NO" to a hybrid IS.) in any way "entry level"? Isnt that the IS250?
By entry-level lux class, I refer to the class that the likes of the IS, 3, A4, TSX, etc. belong to ? All of the cars in this sector have either a straight 4, turbo-4, I6 or V6, correct ? An IS (sedan, coupe, hybrid, AWD, etc) would remain within this sector, ditto a 3-series, or any variant of the A4.
Is the current I6 powered M3 entry level, but because the next generation will have a 400hp V8, its no longer entry level? Can you explain this to me?
The M3 is a hi-po/low volume car in this sector, and by its price should not be classed as an entry-lux, per se. Trouble is how to classify a hybrd version of a sedan. Should it remain a mainstream sedan, or a hi-po/low volume variant ? Toyota/Lexus promises a hybrid for every car/truck they make, but would these be made in sufficient numbers or in low volume ? I dunno...
Wether the AMG, RS, or Motorsport versions of these cars are V6 or V12 powered doesnt change that. So, yes, all three have entry level luxury sports sedans with a lot more than 350hp and 350ft.lbs of torque.
To which I must agree. So, an IS450h may not be the class-leader afterall. My bad.
"Lexus is doing the same thing with the IS. They are basing the ommission of the MT IS350 on the fact that they will more than likely still be able to sell evrerything they build anyway."
Has Lexus come out and say they will not at any point in the future add a manual version of the IS350???
As I've said before instead of getting all rattled up about a measly car not coming with a manual transmission why don't you all just wait until the IS350 is close to release. As is one of their biggest goals to keep the product lines "fresh" throughout the product cycle, it is very likely a manual IS350 will come about a year after launch, much as Infiniti did with the G35.
Of course where your certification numbers come from...oh we're still waiting.
The cost of making each engine-tranny combo pass federal certification is different. There is no hard number for the certification cost of IS350 manual, not even Lexus has it, simply because it has not been certified yet. There is only estimate, apparently, based on that estimate, Lexus decided not to do it in the first year. It's no different from BMW's initial approach towards Euro-spec E36 M3, Subaru's earlier approach towards WRX and WRX-STi. What's so hard to understand that it cost a lot of money to R&D, engineer and certifiy a different tranny? Why doesn't BMW offer a 7-speed automatic? (MB does), why doesn't BMW offer an S54 E90 this model year? What number do you have that S54 would cost more money?
Is that trying to convince me or to convince yourself? I go to less than half a dozen test drives, out props the check book and off with the car, then do it again in three years. It's a capital investment for the duration only because that's what the IRS codes says regarding depreciation. I don't take it nearly as seriously as test-driving 30+ cars before choosing one. If I spend that much time on test-driving cars, I'd better be thinking of buying a dealership franchise or a fleet not a single car.
If you care to re-read my post and those before it, you'll see that the post was more in reference to those that come into the forum and either taut or bash BMW, Lexus, Audi, etc. It does state the term "IS" (it's in there somewhere don't worry). Most people often times confuse cost of ownership with reliability (I'll leave the Intro to "______" for you to decide, sorry my posts are not up to the PHD level). Again the frequency of repairs and cost of said repair are different in nature and should be debated as such and not confused.
No one car is truly better then the other, I know on has more HP, tech features etc. all well and good. when does that 25HP you paid an extra 2k for come into play on a daily basis... Hmmmm wish a had car "A" when that trooper pulled me over, if I did I could out raced him and never got this ticket??? But if cars in general were strictly a logical purchase there would only be maybe one or two brands to choose, or Red wouldn't be a color choice. As another poster stated it's buying a car for "me". Probably one of the better posts the past week or so.
I'm going to bring a cow to the next lecture I'm in and see how many students can guess it's weight, got a sneaky suspicion they won't be able to unless it's on a scale. :P
Just out of curiousity does it break down the "new" GS sales from the outgoing model??? The statement states a boost. Others not only in this forum but in the Infiniti M have quoted this stat. I'd much rather see a sales comparison for the 06 GS vs. M, E, etc.
I'm going by what I was told by multiple product reps at the NYC auto show, and it is true no official word from Lexus but they stated to myself and the masses. Model year two hybrid technology for the IS weather it's a 400H or 450H remains to be seen.
Hopefully sooner rather than later, the Host will do something and clamp down on this repetitive, ad infinitum, merry-go-round.....
What do we know about the IS250/350 ?
AWD/RWD 6MT/6A 200+hp/300+hp Some standard features + some optional features measurements (weight, dimensions, wheelbase, etc...)
That's about it.
So what's all the debate about ???
No MT on IS350 ! Not (yet) announced, but 6 months to dealer showrooms, so anything can still happen
No AWD on IS350 !
Low HP/TQ ratings for IS250. But none has been announced (yet). We cannot go by the Euro specs either. NA market ain't Euro market by any means...
Any driving impressions of the IS350 ? None anywhere, at least none we can believe in.
Anything else is pure speculation.... And please easy on the Bimmer comparo for now. If the Bimmer crowd don't give a hoot about the new IS, I don't know why this forum should care about the Bimmer crowd/comparos either. But there is a point where we gotta simple agree to disagree.
Seriously doubt a 400h based on the old 3.3L motor in a new IS. More appropriate to use the 450h in the new GS. The key is that Lexus/Toyota has promised a hybrid on every car/truck they produce. I also heard it from a dealer that Lexus wants to bring in the IS hybrid before the new LS, or definitely before a hybrid LS comes out. I guess we'll see.
There's absolutely no way they would use the 3.3L in the IS. This engine is due for death folks, there's no way its going to pop up in a new car. It was also never designed for performance or RWD use. I'd say an IS hybrid based around either the new 3.0L or 3.5L engines is a definite possibility, but RX's 3.3L is out of the question. Once the models that use this engine are redesigned, its gone. The thing has been around since '93 or so.
I cannot understand why you are even on this forum...The IS is a sport sedan. A sport sedan needs a manual transmission to be a real sport sedan, otherwise it is just a poser, a boulevardier, a non-entity for enthusiasts like most of us here.
You cannot argue the business reasons for Toyota not offering a manual IS350: it frankly makes no sense, and I agree, that most Car Magazines will eat it alive.
Are you driving Toyota Avalon? Camry? I am just curious.
The following types of posts (which were numerous) have been removed:
1) Posts that were condescending or downright insulting 2) Posts comparing Japanese to German quality 3) Endless speculative comparison focusing mainly on BMW vehicles 4) Posts highlighting the merits of producing manual v. automatic transmission vehicles in general 5) Posts about braking 6) Posts beating into the ground any of the above
See where I'm going here?
NO MORE posts that are mainly about vehicles other than the Lexus IS. NO MORE posts debating the merits of offering more v fewer manual transmissions. I'm sorry that some members have chosen to monopolize the conversation in order to parse each other's every word and to dwell on minutiae. Please check your posts very carefully before hitting "post my message." Further violations will result in the revocation of posting privileges in this discussion.
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Well, from the pictures floating around, it looks like the interior is much more "grown up" than the prior model. Hopefully it is a bit roomier to.
I really liked driving the one I tested (about 1.5 years ago), but it was just too tight, back seat and front seat. I didn't have enough room driving it to be real comfrotable. Nice handling though, and slick shifter.
Th eexterior looks good in the pics, but have to wait for real life to tell for sure.
The biggest ommision (IMO) is not having a sportcross replacement, especially now that it looks like this style is making some inroads (or at least some of the compitition is offering). Ok, maybe it's only Audi, and maybe I'm out of the mainstream, but I like the square hatch/mini wagon body style. Works much better for me than a sedan with a small trunk.
It's not only Audi, Stickguy, IMO. You can lump the leviathan-sized Magnum in there as well. I don't think anyone thought it would drive sales quite that much.
I have to agree with rsr and others: the IS mission is sports first, lux second, or so we have been told by Denny & Co. at Lexus all the way along. After all, what's missing from the lineup in absence of the current IS is sport; slushy luxury they have by the boxcar. Much of what we've been told so far points to a philosophical reversal, perhaps by Toyota. Maybe they've read the market indicators correctly and will sell more IS on "style" than substance. To me, though, that would seem a reversal as well.
MSRP is the comparison index, EOS. Based on that, and as we have been told numerous times by Lexus, the IS250 will base just below $30K (like $29.9K). The quote "we will not go further down-market", oft-repeated, comes to mind. Seems like they chose a plant that would allow them to build in more "Lexus-like" amenities than oomph. Lost me there. I'd go for power to weight comparable to the existing car, which is a tremendous car to own and drive or a tad more power, but not the other way. My guess is I won't be in the minority here.
If one has to choose the 350 to have a truly sporting driving experience, then in reality the base price of an IS much higher.
BTW, I signed up on the Lexus site for hard info on the car. I'll forward whatever I get, if someone else doesn't get it first.
I cannot understand why you are even on this forum...The IS is a sport sedan. A sport sedan needs a manual transmission to be a real sport sedan, otherwise it is just a poser, a boulevardier, a non-entity for enthusiasts like most of us here.
The topic is IS, which, both the current and the next, is/will be overwhelmingly sold in automatic. As for "most of us," that's hardly statisticly true. As for "enthusiasts," a person can call oneself whatever he/she wishes, but that has no bearing on reality.
I agree, that most Car Magazines will eat it alive.
I doubt that very much; nor is it frankly relevent. The first IS with automatic did quite well. The G35 did very well in its first year with automatic only. Check out Motor Trend's latest compro of two-seat roadsters: the automatic-only Crossfire SRT beat both 350Z and Prosche Boxster! They are supposed to be comparing in a sportscar category! Sport sedans are fundamentally sedans.
Agree with your sentiment. I too like five-door two-box vehicles, as both my current vehicles are. Lexus might be considering a smaller SUV than the RX330, a la X3, especially if the Highlander platform (from which RX derives) gets bigger in the next revision to compete against Pilot. On the other hand, rumor has it that the next Highlander platform is going to be lower and become a "sportwagon," so I'm not entirely given up on seeing an IS five-door someday.
Feel your frustration. I own a Toyota wagon and I must tell you it is a blast to drive plus the added room and flexibility to accomodate your regular Home Depot trip. An IS sportcross is unfortunately not in the cards, if we believe the rews and rumors coming from Lexus. Even BMW and MB are not going in the wagon route. I did see Audi's A3 sitting on a dais in Munich Airport last Fall. A real good looking car. I can see how that car will do well here in the NA market. But it will be a low volume seller, which companies like Audi needs, but Lexus doesn't. Sad reality.
Lexus contacted me today. The caller was very nice and extremely professional. She thanked me for my letter. And then made a point to tell me repeatedly that my letter was passed on to management and that they take requests from prospective/current owners regarding products very seriously. She said that they're aware of the concern some people have expressed about the IS350 and that they are always looking for ways to improve the product.
"Merc1 how many times are we going to have to repeat this. OK here it is again for the umpteent time.
There will be an IS250/6MT"
How many times does it have to be repeated that the wrong gearbox is on the wrong engine here? What part about the competition having this don't you get? Keep making excuse for them, they'll need it if the press moans the lack of it.
"Roadsters are far more about sportiness than sedans" from Merc's post. Thats not really true. The body style really has nothing to do with how sporty a car is or isnt. If a car is designed with driving as job one, its going to be sporty, regardless of the number of doors. Take the Evo MR for example. This machine is a lot more race-ready than most of the roadsters on the market. I would say that only the Lotus Elise really plays in this league.
IMO, the 2.5 and stick is a great combo for Europe, not so great for the NA market. Our cars should really be the 3.0 and 3.5, but if we must get the 2.5, it should be the auto, and the 3.5 the stick.
when you drive the new IS what do you want out of it that the current car cannot provide???? smoother ride?? quieter ride?? tight steering?? you obviously don't like the way the current IS drives which is puzzling to me because i don't think there is much of a difference between it and any other car in the segment. Road and track says the IS is exciting, easily the most tossable and nimble car and that was against the 330i. other people have different opinions but i guess to each his own.
i have driven loaner ES 300's, camry's, accords, acuras. man the current IS300 just blows all those cars out of the water when it comes to putting a smile on my face. the steering is super, the braking, the handling, the pick up. i mean sure it is no boaty ride but how can ANYONE feel like the current IS is vastly inferior to any car in its class??
the new IS will be no different. the differences will be so minute between all these cars it all comes down to looks and what lexus does better than all the other guys which i won't say again.
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the proof is in the pudding already shipo. you know that magazine called consumer reports??? for a couple years they were RECOMMENDING the IS not the 3 series, not the A4, and definitely not the C class. recently they said the 3 series and the A4 have improved their egregious maintenance track record and are now recommending them but like somebody said the data is so skewed. how can we believe that bmw and audi are really getting better??? you don't have to even wonder about the quality of a lexus.
lexIS rulz
lexIS rulz.
lexIS rulz
Interesting, I came to this discussion because I really wanted to have a non-BMW option for my next car. An IS350 with a three pedal six speed manual transmission would have been just the ticket. Unfortunately, all of the blind/heavily pro-Lexus bias that I have had to endure simply because I will not have an automatic transmission in my garage has so soured me on Lexus in general and the IS in particular that I'm not sure that I'd get one even if the IS350 did offer the manual transmission.
Time to sign off, have fun gang.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Thank you for sharing your annecdotal experience with your BMW. Mine was quite different. It was in the shop at least every other month. Statistics seem to have made a definitive statement on BMW's reliability vs. that of Lexus; we have no need to waste time on that.
Why so much hate? Manual tranny is just like any other options in a car.
Hello?? I've been wrongly accused of being a corporate apologist, and my valid argument has be called "specious" without any logical rebuttal, now you are calling me a hater? For the record, I have no issue with people who prefer manual and lay down the money when the manufactur makes one, like my Best Man did when G35 manual was introduced; unfortunately there aren't enough real men like him, who puts money where his mouth is when it comes to manual sports-lux sedans. If Lexus is planning on selling 50k IS350 annually (i.e. no IS250 at all), I'd applaud them for having a manual IS350 in the first year as the projected manual sales would be around 5k units and probably self-financing. The reality is that Lexus is only planning on selling 9k IS350 annually, of which statisticly speaking only 900 units will be manual. There's just no way 900 units can finance the cost of federal certification. That means the cost would have to be absorbed by IS350 automatic buyers. Mercedes ships about 1000 units of SL roadster every month, yet it has not found it economicly sensible to make a manual SL for the US. That's for a roadster! which obviously puts more emphasis on driving experience than mere sedans, and a car that has an $80k price tag to play the game of amortizing certification cost.
Whether manual or automatic is better is entirely besides the point for me, in case you still have not got the drift of my posts, what matters is that manual advocates need to stump up the money where their mouth is and carry their own weight, so to speak. I'm not interested in subsidizing someone else' car purchase or "passion."
Oh, in case there is still any wonder, I don't care if Lexus offers Nav, or even a kitchen sink in the backseat if they can get a decent mark-up for it (from some other buyer, obviously). Backseat kitchen sink requires no federal certification, and minimal amount of engineering effort is involved, and I'm sure Lexus will include that only if and as soon as it makes money like Nav and Mark Levinson etc.. The manual tranny is a little different in that it requires a large upfront cost that needs to be amortized through vehicle sales. When the total production for IS350 is only 9k units a year, of which 10% might be manual, there just isn't enough cars to amortize the up front cost. That's why I applaud Lexus for not wasting money in the first year.
An IS250 is an upgrade to the IS200 (Europe), slots in at the low-end of the Lexus line in the all-important NA market, and with optional features can adequately challenge cars from the TSX, 325i, Audi 1.8T/2.0, all the way to a TL. And then you can go against the top of the market space - 330i and G35, even remotely an RL, with the 300+hp IS350. The latter has a higher HP, higher torque, and with new aggressive body styling and excellent interior ergonomics, a sleek 6A tranny with paddle shift, and luxury features rivaling the top-dog LS, should keep this car at par with the competition here.
And then comes the hardtop coupe and the hybrid. The latter is a very important entry in this sector. Why ? Cos it annihilates every other car in the space. Only an M3 can remotely even dare compete with an IS450h pumping out a class-leading 350+HP (speculative) and about same or higher torque, all at mid-20mpg fuel efficiency. Wanna imagine what this car will do 0-60 or in 1/4-mile ?.
All of these can be achieved within the next 24 months ! Afterall, Lexus already promised the IS hybrid will be here before the next LS comes in the Fall of 2006, so expect the IS450h right after the GS450h arrives in showrooms next Spring.
Beautifully laid out plan, don't you think ???
Now what was it you manual-bias fans were saying about Lexus not coming to play with the big boys ??? You gotta wait and see the plan unfold. Don't look at these releases in isolation, otherwise you'd miss the real story. Stay tuned folks...
The discussion would have "IS" in it ;-) I can easily write three pages on introductory statistics (and why JD Powers survey works) but I surmise it will be yanked by the host as it would indeed be way off topic. The manual tranny discussion is getting a bit old, but apparently the stick fans are only beginning to get their minds around the economics involved and what I was saying. It's sad how they kept harping about G35 manual etc. without realizing that Infinity sells 70k G35 a year, and Lexus is only planning on selling 9k IS350 in the first year, an order of magnitude difference. Not to mention that G35 manuals are piling up on dealer lots due to lack of buyers even as we type. All those who want an IS350 manual should really take another look at the G35 manual, it's less expensive, and more importantly it's here now! And by buying one, you will keep the manual flame alive! Of course, some self-proclaimed "dreamers" would never buy a Japanese SportLux in their worst nightmare. Lexus would be wasting money chasing them indeed.
What? Since when is 350hp class leading? The CTS-V, the next M3, the RS4, and C55 all have V8s, ranging from 362hp for the Merc to 415hp for the Audi. You can bet that MB will not sit idly by while BMW and Audi outpower them either.
after reading some of these posts I thought I was in a BMW forum or anti-BMW forum.
What a surprise it was to find out that this is actually an IS forum
Visit the 06 BMW 3 series forum and you will notice the IS is barely mentioned. Complete indifference about the IS. If only some BMW forum members were a bit insecure about a manual IS350, maybe just maybe they would bash the IS a bit more than they do now. :P
The next one makes xenons optional. weird. regardless, I'd never order i car i haven't driven. if i were to base my desicion on the last IS, wow, I'd never go near lexus again. luckily i'm open minded enough to drive it before making a final judgment.
We are talking V6 engines here, putting the 3.5L V6-based 450h setup in the entry-level lux IS. For this class, an IS450h will be class-leading indeed. Do you know of any entry-level lux sports sedan from MB, BMW, Audi with 350+ ponies/350+Ibft of torque under their hood ?
As long as you keep saying lexus is right for not offering a manual with an is350 and keep saying it was a sound financial decision I'll stand by my claim that your argument is specious and you're a corporate apologist. Lexus right or wrong seems to be your motto. Either that or you work for toyota.
That's why I applaud Lexus for not wasting money in the first year.
there it is again you're applauding a company as you gain something from their decision. I don't care if lexus goes out of business the day after i buy my is350 with manual. NMP. I don't care if BMW goes under tonight. NMP. I don't buy a brand - i buy a car. The company's finances are of zero concern to me.
You've got some other interest in lexus selling a half-baked is. the rest of us can't grasp your agenda but you like to hide it behind phantom certification costs or a weird idea that this extreme cost would result in lexus jacking up the price of the car. no evidence but you spout it anyway. as if this is a fact of life...put a manual is a car and it's pricey and for that reason it'll price the car higher. yeah show us the certification costs...
:confuse:
Blue guy - "the rest of us" ?? - you do not speak for me. I do not see any flaws in the points that Brightness, and others, have made that are not in agreement with your posts/philosophy.
Back to Lexus and the IS: A couple of interesting quotes:
"Only BMW sells enough manual transmission equipped midsize sedans to make developing and certifying them worth the effort and expense" ((May Motor Trend, GS300 review pg. 64).
"MB, BMW and Audi should start worrying now: Toyota is getting serious about the Lexus....it's has already given Lexus autonomous design, development and engineering departments. The next gen ES300, a Camry under the skin, will be the last Lexus designed to share duty as a Toyota." (May Motor Trend, pg. 32).
Cheers
Lexus is doing the same thing with the IS. They are basing the ommission of the MT IS350 on the fact that they will more than likely still be able to sell evrerything they build anyway. Since they are in the business to make money, that is the the first and foremost priority. Last I checked, Acura is selling the TSX well above predictions and they are happy. Maybe the NEXT TSX will have a V6 and possibly even AWD. But for this model, they seem to have gotten the supply vs. demand thing just right. And as for the IS250, I'm willing to bet that it'll be a while before you'll be able to walk up to the dealership and have a great selection to pick from. And with even the manual 250's coming out 2 months after introduction. I don't plan to get mine until Christmas 2006. And those that want a manual 350 will have to wait for either the mid-run refresh in a couple years or maybe even the third gen IS.
WOW!! The future ES sounds more exciting than the new gen. IS. :P
The new GS is a product of the above approach. Based on that model the competition definitely will have a perpetual grin on their faces if Lexus endeavors continue in that direction.
"Only BMW sells enough manual transmission equipped midsize sedans to make developing and certifying them worth the effort and expense"
Sounds like BMW has a monopoly on a very important niche(despite some forum member here who think mt buyers are a Dodo Bird phenemona)
Reality: The Lexus Division reported its best-ever March with total sales of 25,471 units for the month. ... GS sales were boosted by the launch of the all-new 2006 GS 300 and GS 430 luxury performance sedans in late February. The GS 300 had sales of 2,482, an increase of 428.8 percent, ...the GS 430 posted sales of 727, an increase of 914.6 percent.. ((04/01/2005 Torrance, CA))
This would point to general Lexus success, I believe.
Except the point of the broken record is to "prove" that "therefore IS350 doesnt really compete with BMW" That's all it's about. Some, if not all, of the most fervent stick advocates here would not buy IS350 manual even if there were one; e.g. Merc1, who hates Lexus by its very existence; Bluedotdude, who is locked in on a ZHP lease.
Brightness04 you are in denial about the above truth. My suggestion to you is take a few deep breaths and repeat the following mantra: "The IS350 would be more competitive with a manual option" Keep on repeating the mantra everyday for ten minutes and the Truth shall set you free!
Truth needs no repeating, only lies repeated enough times might pretend to be the truth. Offering IS350 manual option on a 900-unit annual production basis would make the whole IS350 project more costly, hence making the IS350 more expensive; that would not make the model more competitive at all. If you can't get your brain around this simple fact, try this: why isn't BMW offering a 333hp 3.2L in the first model year for E90? or a coupe or a convertible E90 all this model year?? A company has to spread out its cash flow and engineering resources over time.
Is the current I6 powered M3 entry level, but because the next generation will have a 400hp V8, its no longer entry level? Can you explain this to me? The last time I checked, the C class, A4, and 3 series are the entry level luxury sports sedans from Mercedes, Audi, and BMW respectively. Wether the AMG, RS, or Motorsport versions of these cars are V6 or V12 powered doesnt change that. So, yes, all three have entry level luxury sports sedans with a lot more than 350hp and 350ft.lbs of torque.
May of 06...that's 13 months from now and only 7 months after the release of the IS. And by the way, if I see a car I want NOW, i'll buy it. Cars are toys, not investments.
Lets hope lexus tones that monstrosity down for use in the IS, eh?
By entry-level lux class, I refer to the class that the likes of the IS, 3, A4, TSX, etc. belong to ? All of the cars in this sector have either a straight 4, turbo-4, I6 or V6, correct ? An IS (sedan, coupe, hybrid, AWD, etc) would remain within this sector, ditto a 3-series, or any variant of the A4.
Is the current I6 powered M3 entry level, but because the next generation will have a 400hp V8, its no longer entry level? Can you explain this to me?
The M3 is a hi-po/low volume car in this sector, and by its price should not be classed as an entry-lux, per se. Trouble is how to classify a hybrd version of a sedan. Should it remain a mainstream sedan, or a hi-po/low volume variant ? Toyota/Lexus promises a hybrid for every car/truck they make, but would these be made in sufficient numbers or in low volume ? I dunno...
Wether the AMG, RS, or Motorsport versions of these cars are V6 or V12 powered doesnt change that. So, yes, all three have entry level luxury sports sedans with a lot more than 350hp and 350ft.lbs of torque.
To which I must agree. So, an IS450h may not be the class-leader afterall. My bad.
Has Lexus come out and say they will not at any point in the future add a manual version of the IS350???
As I've said before instead of getting all rattled up about a measly car not coming with a manual transmission why don't you all just wait until the IS350 is close to release. As is one of their biggest goals to keep the product lines "fresh" throughout the product cycle, it is very likely a manual IS350 will come about a year after launch, much as Infiniti did with the G35.
The cost of making each engine-tranny combo pass federal certification is different. There is no hard number for the certification cost of IS350 manual, not even Lexus has it, simply because it has not been certified yet. There is only estimate, apparently, based on that estimate, Lexus decided not to do it in the first year. It's no different from BMW's initial approach towards Euro-spec E36 M3, Subaru's earlier approach towards WRX and WRX-STi. What's so hard to understand that it cost a lot of money to R&D, engineer and certifiy a different tranny? Why doesn't BMW offer a 7-speed automatic? (MB does), why doesn't BMW offer an S54 E90 this model year? What number do you have that S54 would cost more money?
Is that trying to convince me or to convince yourself? I go to less than half a dozen test drives, out props the check book and off with the car, then do it again in three years. It's a capital investment for the duration only because that's what the IRS codes says regarding depreciation. I don't take it nearly as seriously as test-driving 30+ cars before choosing one. If I spend that much time on test-driving cars, I'd better be thinking of buying a dealership franchise or a fleet not a single car.
No one car is truly better then the other, I know on has more HP, tech features etc. all well and good. when does that 25HP you paid an extra 2k for come into play on a daily basis... Hmmmm wish a had car "A" when that trooper pulled me over, if I did I could out raced him and never got this ticket??? But if cars in general were strictly a logical purchase there would only be maybe one or two brands to choose, or Red wouldn't be a color choice. As another poster stated it's buying a car for "me". Probably one of the better posts the past week or so.
I'm going to bring a cow to the next lecture I'm in and see how many students can guess it's weight, got a sneaky suspicion they won't be able to unless it's on a scale. :P
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What do we know about the IS250/350 ?
AWD/RWD
6MT/6A
200+hp/300+hp
Some standard features + some optional features
measurements (weight, dimensions, wheelbase, etc...)
That's about it.
So what's all the debate about ???
No MT on IS350 ! Not (yet) announced, but 6 months to dealer showrooms, so anything can still happen
No AWD on IS350 !
Low HP/TQ ratings for IS250. But none has been announced (yet). We cannot go by the Euro specs either. NA market ain't Euro market by any means...
Any driving impressions of the IS350 ? None anywhere, at least none we can believe in.
Anything else is pure speculation.... And please easy on the Bimmer comparo for now. If the Bimmer crowd don't give a hoot about the new IS, I don't know why this forum should care about the Bimmer crowd/comparos either. But there is a point where we gotta simple agree to disagree.
This argument is like flogging a dead horse. It is just going nowhere!
You cannot argue the business reasons for Toyota not offering a manual IS350: it frankly makes no sense, and I agree, that most Car Magazines will eat it alive.
Are you driving Toyota Avalon? Camry? I am just curious.
1) Posts that were condescending or downright insulting
2) Posts comparing Japanese to German quality
3) Endless speculative comparison focusing mainly on BMW vehicles
4) Posts highlighting the merits of producing manual v. automatic transmission vehicles in general
5) Posts about braking
6) Posts beating into the ground any of the above
See where I'm going here?
NO MORE posts that are mainly about vehicles other than the Lexus IS. NO MORE posts debating the merits of offering more v fewer manual transmissions. I'm sorry that some members have chosen to monopolize the conversation in order to parse each other's every word and to dwell on minutiae. Please check your posts very carefully before hitting "post my message." Further violations will result in the revocation of posting privileges in this discussion.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I really liked driving the one I tested (about 1.5 years ago), but it was just too tight, back seat and front seat. I didn't have enough room driving it to be real comfrotable. Nice handling though, and slick shifter.
Th eexterior looks good in the pics, but have to wait for real life to tell for sure.
The biggest ommision (IMO) is not having a sportcross replacement, especially now that it looks like this style is making some inroads (or at least some of the compitition is offering). Ok, maybe it's only Audi, and maybe I'm out of the mainstream, but I like the square hatch/mini wagon body style. Works much better for me than a sedan with a small trunk.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But then, if this is to be Lexus' hard core entry level sport sedan, maybe a "wagon", or even a "hatch", does not go with the image, in their minds.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I have to agree with rsr and others: the IS mission is sports first, lux second, or so we have been told by Denny & Co. at Lexus all the way along. After all, what's missing from the lineup in absence of the current IS is sport; slushy luxury they have by the boxcar. Much of what we've been told so far points to a philosophical reversal, perhaps by Toyota. Maybe they've read the market indicators correctly and will sell more IS on "style" than substance. To me, though, that would seem a reversal as well.
MSRP is the comparison index, EOS. Based on that, and as we have been told numerous times by Lexus, the IS250 will base just below $30K (like $29.9K). The quote "we will not go further down-market", oft-repeated, comes to mind. Seems like they chose a plant that would allow them to build in more "Lexus-like" amenities than oomph. Lost me there. I'd go for power to weight comparable to the existing car, which is a tremendous car to own and drive or a tad more power, but not the other way. My guess is I won't be in the minority here.
If one has to choose the 350 to have a truly sporting driving experience, then in reality the base price of an IS much higher.
BTW, I signed up on the Lexus site for hard info on the car. I'll forward whatever I get, if someone else doesn't get it first.
{sigh}
The topic is IS, which, both the current and the next, is/will be overwhelmingly sold in automatic. As for "most of us," that's hardly statisticly true. As for "enthusiasts," a person can call oneself whatever he/she wishes, but that has no bearing on reality.
I agree, that most Car Magazines will eat it alive.
I doubt that very much; nor is it frankly relevent. The first IS with automatic did quite well. The G35 did very well in its first year with automatic only. Check out Motor Trend's latest compro of two-seat roadsters: the automatic-only Crossfire SRT beat both 350Z and Prosche Boxster! They are supposed to be comparing in a sportscar category! Sport sedans are fundamentally sedans.
Nice of them to call and ask for more feedback.
The A3 is a fabulously-looking car. I dunno how it drives or anything, but like I said, it is a great looker.
I will write them soon.
DrFill
There will be an IS250/6MT"
How many times does it have to be repeated that the wrong gearbox is on the wrong engine here? What part about the competition having this don't you get? Keep making excuse for them, they'll need it if the press moans the lack of it.
M
IMO, the 2.5 and stick is a great combo for Europe, not so great for the NA market. Our cars should really be the 3.0 and 3.5, but if we must get the 2.5, it should be the auto, and the 3.5 the stick.
i have driven loaner ES 300's, camry's, accords, acuras. man the current IS300 just blows all those cars out of the water when it comes to putting a smile on my face. the steering is super, the braking, the handling, the pick up. i mean sure it is no boaty ride but how can ANYONE feel like the current IS is vastly inferior to any car in its class??
the new IS will be no different. the differences will be so minute between all these cars it all comes down to looks and what lexus does better than all the other guys which i won't say again.
lexIS rulz