Lets look at the quotes you provided more carefully:
"The base IS 250 will represent about 50 percent of the sedan's volume, . . ."
"The IS 250 awd will represent about 30 percent of total IS sales and will be offered only with an automatic transmission."
It should be clear that your conclusion that "So only 70% of the IS250s will be rwd?! Lets be generous and make 20% manual. That's 3150 IS250s with manuals! 22500 X .70 X .20. Hmmm, on the cheap car. Yeah this all makes sense now...lol" is way off the mark! Why?
"The IS 250 awd will represent about 30 percent of total IS sales" That's 30% of total IS sales! not total IS250 sales. Do you actually believe IS250AWD is projected to outsell IS250 base RWD? (50% - 30% = 20%) Therefore, the "The base IS250" referred to in the first quote referred to IS250 base RWD alone, not all IS with 2.5 liter engines.
Therefore, the projection is 50% IS250 base RWD, 30% IS250AWD, leaving 20% for IS350. That's 9000 IS350 total projected, applying the 10% manua ratio, resulting in 900 cars, vs. 2250 potential IS250 manuals. Not to mention that the 2.5 engine needs the manual more and is therefore more manual ratio for IS250 may well be higher than for IS350.
On the side note, please refrain from characterizing my analysis as "specious agument" until you can realisticly rebutt it. Overly indugent sarcasm does not boster your argument either.
That's 13 models with one certification. That's part of the reason why BMW uses the same engine-tranny combo not only for different bodies in the same series but also across series. Out of all the myriads of models that BMW offers, there are only a few engines offered in the US: 2.5, 3.0, 4.4 and 6.0; we don't get the 2.0 I6, diesels, 3.0 V8, 3.5 V8 etc..
Sorry to anyone who's bored by the BMW reference. It's a way of showing that 900 expected IS350 manual sales can be a real problem for certification cost. When Lexus offers the same 3.5 on GS and SC not to menton IS wagons and convertibles, (like BMW offering the same 3.0 on wagons, 5, X3, X5 and Z4), certifying for manual may well be worth it by then.
And the Xi's have different transmissions with different ratios than the RWD models.. So, that is six different combos for that engine alone..
The difference between RWD and AWD is quite limited, not sure how much difference would necessitate a recertification (could be behind BMW's decision to make 325 carry a 3.0 liter for E90 in the US). Also, the AWD engine-tranny combos are used extensively in the X5 and X3 series.
Don't forget the 2.5 litre... That would be six more... with Xi and RWD transmissions being different..
As far as I know, the 2.5 does not have SMG option. Xi combo certification can be leveraged through X3 and X5 sales. That does beg the question, why SMG is not offered on the 2.5? Certification cost?
there is also a 4.8 litre model... and the 3.2 M3 engine, etc, etc, etc...
4.8 is in the process of replacing 4.4. Both the 4.8 and the 3.2 based cars have such high margins that certification cost can be recouped. e.g. people buying M3 are quite willing to pay $4000 for SMG, etc.
And Toyota can't certify 4 models?
BMW charges $1250 for automatic option, the current price difference between IS300 and IS300 automatic is only $600!
that there is no way certification can cost $3 million dollars per combination...
If it were so, we wouldn't get all of the choices that we do... Also, if it were that expensive, we would likely be getting the new 3.0 litre V6 out of the GS300, instead of a new 2.5 litre.. That way, no extra cost at all for the slushbox version..
Therefore, the projection is 50% IS250 base RWD, 30% IS250AWD, leaving 20% for IS350. That's 9000 IS350 total projected, applying the 10% manua ratio, resulting in 900 cars, vs. 2250 potential IS250 manuals. Not to mention that the 2.5 engine needs the manual more and is therefore more manual ratio for IS250 may well be higher than for IS350.
I admit if they meant to say 30% of all IS's will be AWD, you are correct. That is probably the case and entirely my fault. I apologize for the error...I could drum excuses but the fact is I flubbed. I apologize again.
Still think your argument's base regarding manuals is totally specious. Can't help it. It smells like total bull to me. The difference between 2250 and 900 cars is not so great that it would even dent Toyota's cafeteria straw purchasing power at company plants. Especially when one considers the potential for higher profit on the more expensive models - bigger engine, usually means bigger price tag that easily outstrips the real cost of producing the engine.
Can our friend explain how a low production variation on the 3.0 with different gearing got certified? Oh right, cost of the option. Yeah that cost also involves different headers, cams, ECU, muffler, suspension, exterior components, wheels, interior components.
His claim that it's too expensive for so few cars seems way off base when we consider the low numbers for the 330i and the even lower numbers for the ZHP manuals/autos.
First you say: "When did I write that a 3.0 inline 6 performs like a honda 4?"
THen you say: " "I wrote that BMW's vaunted and highly overrated inline 6s are gutless wonders that must be wound up like a Honda motor to motivate the car."
Huh..."must be wound up like a Honda motor". Sounds like you are saying exactly what you said you didn't say.
Okay, here we go again.
Okay, 3 cars Acura TSX manual BMW 325i manual BMW 330i manual
All weigh within 100 pounds(base curb weight) from about 3200 for the TSX to a little under 3300 for the 330i.
Remembering what was said above about curb weights, how is it that the BMWs are the ones with no torque? Obviously they have more at more useable RPM. Not to mention we all know the reality that BMW engines are under-rated on paper.
Oh and the S2000. Here is a car with 162lb-ft @6,500RPM. How is that better than 214lb-ft@3,500RPM in the Z4 3.0? Anyone?
Manuals account for maybe 15% of that? So 1200 cars. Of those manuals, how many had the ZHP option? Maybe 30% or about 360 cars. Heck even saying 50% is only 600 cars.
What about the automatics, 6800 cars, maybe 30% with ZHP package (seems high) - or 2040 cars or so?
Did BMW find a way to defer those fees for certifying their special package that's sold in small numbers?
First you say: "When did I write that a 3.0 inline 6 performs like a honda 4?"
THen you say: " "I wrote that BMW's vaunted and highly overrated inline 6s are gutless wonders that must be wound up like a Honda motor to motivate the car."
Again, at no point did I mention Honda's 4 cylinder engines. I pointed out that like ANY Honda motor, you gotta rev the heck out of a BMW inline 6 to motivate that car. Not too complicated.
Remembering what was said above about curb weights, how is it that the BMWs are the ones with no torque? Obviously they have more at more useable RPM. Not to mention we all know the reality that BMW engines are under-rated on paper.
This has nothing to do with what I wrote. I was commenting that BMW engines are just as peaky and torqueless as Honda engines. I didn't say Honda engines were better. I was citing the lack of thrust in BMW's engines and that when I drive them I'm forced to wind them up to the stratosphere to get them moving.
BGDC's point of view: BMW engines have no guts below 4000 rpm. You can post whatever stats you want, the fact is I own one and drive two of them often. Don't much care for the fact neither car has any guts below 4k rpm. The G35 3.5 pulls like hard from the get go; as does the Subaru 2.5 GT. Those cars have decent torque in my opinion. My car doesn't. Why are you challenging an opinion?
"This has nothing to do with what I wrote. I was commenting that BMW engines are just as peaky and torqueless as Honda engines."
I just gave you factual numbers about Honda's and BMW's torque numbers. How can you pick up from that that BMWs engines are just as torqueless as Honda engines???
"I pointed out that like ANY Honda motor, you gotta rev the heck out of a BMW inline 6 to motivate that car. Not too complicated."
I don't know, I've driven many Hondas(even own one with 195lb-ft of torque), and many many BMWs and I see the opposite of what you see. oh well, lower numbers must mean greater torque, go figure!
Minor changes like the ZHP option may not require separate certification at all. IIRC, engine displacement can be bumped by as much as 10% before a recertification is required. ZHP does not even involve any displacement bumping. A few horsepowers here and there happens all the time during a 4-8yr production run, probably no separate certification required.
BMW may well be able to absorb certification cost better than Toyota can. BMW has the highest per unit profit margin in the industry.
Or... the cost of certification has nothing to do with it..
Or... Maybe they couldn't meet the emissions requirements with that engine and a manual transmission.. (which is why the new '06 325i has a 3.0 litre engine).
We'll probably never know for sure... but, I'm betting they get raked over the coals for this decision..
Certification will look cheap compared to the cost of bad press.
just gave you factual numbers about Honda's and BMW's torque numbers. How can you pick up from that that BMWs engines are just as torqueless as Honda engines???
Pick up from that? Because I own a BMW and feel it's that way.
I don't know, I've driven many Hondas(even own one with 195lb-ft of torque), and many many BMWs and I see the opposite of what you see. oh well, lower numbers must mean greater torque, go figure!
The numbers don't mean squat if the reality one experiences is different than what is claimed. Perception is reality. In my 330i if I accelerate at 50% throttle and shift at 3k rpm, I will have every manner of car on the road passing me. I start at 3k rpm at over 50% and move to WOT, the car will move but not with the gusto I expect. Not until 4k rpm does the car start to really gain steam.
Funny how people at bimmerfest always want to challenge this too. IMHO, BMW engines are smooth, peaky and torqueless.
Okay you convinced me that BMW engines are just as torqueless as HOnda motors despite the fact the actual numbers show otherwise. Not to mention the fact that HOnda engines have always been known to be peaky & torqueless.
I'm sure 99% of BMW owners would agree with you!
You should take a poll over on the 3-series board and ask them if their cars are torqueless like Honda 4-cylinder's! I bet they would doubt you own a BMW.
Or... Maybe they couldn't meet the emissions requirements with that engine and a manual transmission.. (which is why the new '06 325i has a 3.0 litre engine).
The cost of certification is not just paperwork and fees, but also doing the engineering modifications to make it pass certification tests. Emission difficulty and the extra engineering and manufacturing cost to make it certifiable can be one of the reasons. There is no such thing impossible to pass an emission test; all a matter of how much money you are willing to throw at it and have it solved. Apparently BMW decided it's less expensive to ship the 3.0 and not having to deal with trying to certify a new 2.5 at all.
We'll probably never know for sure... but, I'm betting they get raked over the coals for this decision..
Certification will look cheap compared to the cost of bad press.
Perhaps . . . like I said, manual 0-60 can be an important marketting point even if it means little in terms of actual sales. We shall see if the buyers in this segment are as dumb as those in the Civic market segment, whether people realize that the manual 0-60 has nothing to do with their own automatic's ability to do 0-60. Based on the success of G35 in its first year, not having a manual doesn't seem like a big deal.
Unlike most people, I'm never satisfied. If it's got 200 lb-ft, I want 250; if it has 250, then gimme 400, etc. My car was a blast at first, now it's fun but not enough. Very worried that the 06 330i will feel anemic to me and then I'm gonna have to wait 2 years for an M3. LOL
Its all in the delivery. My XKR makes 400 pounds of twist at 3500rpm. Its not quick off the line though, the transmition wont let it be. The real power doesnt come on until past 4000rpm.
Hey thats a picture of my BMW!!!! Not yours!!!!....I smell something fishy!!!!.....ok, ok, just trying to break things up. The IS will probably steal sales from Infiniti rather then BMW and Audi. I highly doubt it will give you the driving feel of a German sports sedan.
Funny thing, in no forum on Edmunds can you not get into a pissing, king of the hill contest (I'm no saint either). Why is it so very very very hard, to offer up subjective comments, information or opinions in general without getting killed. You should see those on the Infiniti M board, I got killed for using the word settled!!!
Hijacked by the Bimmer fan(atics). But maybe its a good thing, cos if the new IS generates that much heat among Bimmer fans, then Lexus has succeeded. Of course, its always easier to point out the faults in others, while ignoring the warts in one-self ! Bimmer fans should not be throwing stones at Lexus, all you gotta do is look at the Bangled 3-, 5-, and 7-series sedans + the abominable iDrive..... Yeeoooowwww !!!
It doesn't really bother me that Lexus is not reporting a manual tranny in the IS350...because I plan on getting the slush box. I do however think they should offer one, and all these excuses about certification costs are BS. If they want to put a manual, they can. I would expect a manual to appear 2nd year if not at introduction. Can we just leave it at that? For now no manual. Those die hards who won't even consider a car without it, should test drive the 250, or wait a year for the manual they really want.
Its all in the delivery. My XKR makes 400 pounds of twist at 3500rpm. Its not quick off the line though, the transmition wont let it be. The real power doesnt come on until past 4000rpm.
They say there won't even be a manual IS 250 until 2 months after introduction. That sucks. Looks like it'll be mid 2006 before they have any number of them in available. It's gonna be like the TSX, there won't enough of them to go around and dealership will have surcharges and crap.
For some reason Toy/Lexus fans like to talk a lot. IS/Tacoma/Avalon forums are busier than 3er. Even Avalon!!!
One caution to Lexus fans. They're already declaring IS the one to dethrone 3er. If I remember correctly, they said the same thing about GS and 5er. Well, we all know how that turned out. Infiniti M just about swept every comparo with GS, the latest being the May Motor Trend.
oac - so, true. Amazing, beemer types seem anxious to take shots at the new IS. Not sure why, maybe concern about solid contenders like (potentially) the new IS weakening the status of BMW ownership? ((I don't understand this because it seems the people most impressed with someone owning a BMW, is another BMW owner (hey, you overpaid too, high 5!.))
For those who attended the NY Auto Show and saw the IS250/350 in person, could you give us your perspective and impressions of the car in person?
From looking at the spec sheet/press release - all optional features available on the IS350 will be available on the IS250. The only exception I noticed was that 18" wheels are not an option on the AWD. Is this correct or did I miss something.
"Very worried that the 06 330i will feel anemic to me and then I'm gonna have to wait 2 years for an M3. LOL"
Or you could just get a S2000. Now that I know lower numbers represent greater power, I might get a Accord 4-cylinder instead of a IS350. The Accord will probably be quicker during part throttle launches!! LOL
"They're already declaring IS the one to dethrone 3er. If I remember correctly, they said the same thing about GS and 5er. Well, we all know how that turned out. Infiniti M just about swept every comparo with GS, the latest being the May Motor Trend. "
Magazines are around to make money. How do they make money? By creating stories.
BTW, the Infiniti M was never expected to be a slouch. The magazines hyped that car up immensely also. Not to mention Infiniti has been hyping it's performance potential for about a year.
Due to gearing, the 2003+ 2.4L 4 cylinder 5 speed Accord will match a prev gen 3.0 V6 to 60. So in that case a lower hp/smaller displacement engine CAN represent greater performance. And it still cruises at mid 2000 rpm at 60.
By the time you have a Bimmer with like displacement and power comparable to Honda's 3.0L V6 engine you have to spend over $40k. Some comparison.
The 2.5L V6 in the IS will be just fine in my book. 200 or so hp with just enough displacement to give it a little oomph but not too much so it'll rev like silk. Coming out of a 2.0L 4 cylinder, the IS will be perfect.
Or you could just get a S2000. Now that I know lower numbers represent greater power, I might get a Accord 4-cylinder instead of a IS350. The Accord will probably be quicker during part throttle launches!! LOL
"For those who attended the NY Auto Show and saw the IS250/350 in person, could you give us your perspective and impressions of the car in person?"
Well, I will say the girl who was working the podium was the hottest one on the floor
Regarding the car, I can sum it up as a baby GS. Very muscular lines and a much more "adult" profile. No clear lens taillamps or Boy racer effects to be found. And the interior is finally on par with other Lexus products. When I asked her price, she said she had no idea.
And coming from my fourth 4-cyl Honda Accord, I can say I will be plenty pleased with an IS250 manual. Compared to the base 325ci that was on the floor with a $33,000 price tag BEFORE options, the IS will be a bargain IMO.
Went to the NY auto show yesterday. Sat in the car, the Lexus people answered my every question, gave complete specs on the new engines and availability dates. Told me when the convertible/coupe was coming, and slipped me a coupon worth $2000 off my order. Promised me I could get it in a nice sandy metallic color, and he'd see if I could get early delivery, and perhaps be a paid endorser. What a day!!!
I wish. Not too much to tell...
Anyway, the car (IS350) was on a platform, and I was 8 feet away or so. Looks (to me) like a mini-GS in person. I was a bit surprised that the belt-line looked pretty high to both me and my wife, making the view out seem narrow - think "chopped". Can't tell what it would be like from inside, but in combo with the way the rear slopes and the c-pillar shape I'd be a bit concerned about visibility to the rear (if anyone could catch up with us ;-). Still, liked the look quite a bit.
The rep may have known less than we (on the forum) know about the car's specs. Or, he was intentionally discreet. I asked specifically about the IS250 hp - 200+ (press release), 201 (from Geneva), 212 (rumor from j-spec engine). He stuck with the party line (press release), but then said that it should be greater than the outgoing IS300. Couldn't tell if he was blowing smoke to tell me what I wanted to hear, or leaking the news to an interested customer. My opinion is he didn't know. (To be fair, if I ran Lexus, I wouldn't want him to go outside the official line to some random car show attendee.)
It appears that there is lots up in the air - I get the sense that the car is still in some levels of development and decision-making. That would make sense with a Fall delivery, I guess.
Why? There is only a 3-photo, 1/2 page text, 5x7 foldout available. Not much info. It sticks with 200+, 300+, but only shows 2 transmissions: "Six speed paddle-shift sequential automatic" and "Six-speed manual transmission (IS250 RWD)". Of course, it shows this info right next to a photo of a floor-mounted auto with a tiptronic-style shift gate. Perhaps there are also paddle-shifters on the same car, but does that make sense? Don't know. Maybe my feeling of a paddle-shifter on the wheel is wrong. Maybe they think a +/- gate on the console is "paddle-shifting". I wouldn't.
VDIM standard on the 350, VSC standard on the 250.
Discs (F/R) 11.6/11.4 250 and 13.1/12.2 350.
180.1L, 70.9W, 56.1H, 107.5Wheelbase
There might have been more text in the small print disclaimer at the bottom than there was in the specs. :-(
Anyway, my impressions, and the (very limited) news. No IS350 manual or engine certification flames in response, please. Tim
The 18" wheels will not be available on the AWD because they are part of the sport package and will include low profile tires. Since the point of the AWD is to drive in bad weather (one would assume), it would not make sense to have low profile tires - you would want all-season tires.
Infiniti does the same thing on the new M - you can't get the sport package with AWD.
FYI - the only exposition text from the handout reads...
"Introducing the next milestone in performance: the all-new Lexus IS. Available with a bullish 300-plus horsepower, 3.5-liter V6, six-speed paddle-shift sequential automatic, 18-inch wheels* - even all-wheel drive capability. And all perfectly packaged in a sleek, muscled frame with a longer wheelbase and a wider, sportier stance. It's a new level of athleticism, yet remarkably with all the luxury details you'd expect of a Lexus. In other words, history in the making. The new 2006 IS. Racing to you this fall."
"Prototype shown. Vehicle shown with available equipment. *Tires with 18-in wheels are expected to experience greater tire wear than conventional tires (15,000 miles). Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management (VDIM) and Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) are electronic systems desinged to help the driver maintain vehicle control under adverse conditions. They are not substitutes for safe driving practices. Lexus reminds you to wear seatbelts, secure children in rear seat, obey all traffic laws and drive responsibly. Specifications are preliminary in nature and are subject to change. For more information, call 800-USA-LEXUS (800-872-5398) or visit us at lexus.com" (Copyright 2005 Lexus)
I assume Lexus will allow posting to more greatly disseminate the information.
A long, long time, like 2-3 weeks ago(before that notorious NYC Auto Show Press Release) it was only me and very few others in this forum that mentioned the initials B.M.W.
Every other post now mentions the above initials. I guess I am just ahead of my time.
The current theme of this forum is that Bimmer fans are getting real nervous so they end up yelling obscenities(except for the four letter words--well at least not in this forum) about the Lexus IS. Wonderful theory but a bit out of touch with reality.
The reality is this: Most the vocal tranny complaints are not from Bimmer fans(who are content with Bimmers otherwise they would not be fans) but from two other types of individuals.
1)Those objective individauls who dont give a damned about being loyal to one luxury marque above another, but who spent the last few years or weeks fantasizing about driving a powerful manual IS350( not a manual IS250).
2)The devoted Lexus fans who feel betrayed that they will not be driving the Lexus they dreamt about.
The reality is this: Most the vocal tranny complaints are not from Bimmer fans(who are content with Bimmers otherwise they would not be fans) but from two other types of individuals.
1)Those objective individauls who dont give a damned about being loyal to one luxury marque above another, but who spent the last few years or weeks fantasizing about driving a powerful manual IS350( not a manual IS250).
2)The devoted Lexus fans who feel betrayed that they will not be driving the Lexus they dreamt about.
I doubt there are that many devoted Lexus fans who dream about manual tranny. How many manual tranny cars does Lexus sell right now any way? If one is obsessed with manual tranny, he/she would have no reason to be a devoted Lexus fan.
A devoted Lexus fan is first foremost into getting a great luxury car, a reliable luxury car, sporty or otherwise, at a relatively reasonable price (compared to the grossly overpriced Germans). A devoted Lexus fan who is intent on buying an automatic IS350 would not be slightly interested in chipping in to pay for someone else' wet dream IS350 manual getting federally certified, especially since those wet dreamers seldomly ever translate into real buyers (they buy like 1 car out of 10 that they tire kick); why bother wasting good money.
Sorry for putting more BMW info into this thread.... but, that is exactly the power specs that the 2.5 litre engine in the new Euro E90 325i has.. Albeit, a straight-six.
A devoted Lexus fan is first foremost into getting a great luxury car, a reliable luxury car, sporty or otherwise, at a relatively reasonable price (compared to the grossly overpriced Germans).
We'll see when the pricing comes out if we can get an IS350 with xenon and sport package for 35-36k. With the way Lexus prices have crept up, I doubt it. We'll see though.
(they buy like 1 car out of 10 that they tire kick); why bother wasting good money.
brightness04, the equation you present above is very interesting. Do I sense a bit of hostility here?
No hostility at all. I was not the one who postulated that there are actually people who dreams about cars (your earlier post did), especially considering Lexus hardly offers any manual tranny in any of their cars, dreaming about a manual is setting one up to be disappointed, no?
I think the half-joking adjactive ("wet") I added to what's already postulated ("dreamer"; people who dreams) is positively tame, considering that my valid arguments that have been seriously called "specious." I mean, seriously, how far is a "devoted fan" who "dreams" about cars that do not exist from a excitable "wet dreamer"? ;-)
If Toyota can get that much more power out of that displacement and still make the engine docile at low rpm, they'll be achieving a miracle in my book.
"I doubt there are that many devoted Lexus fans who dream about manual tranny"
Totally opposite IMO. Given that the original IS was blasted for coming out of the gate slushbox only means that there are many, including those from the Auto rags who were anxiously waiting for Lexus to release a formidable 3-series competitor. So Lexus, here's another chance...
they buy like 1 car out of 10 that they tire kick); why bother wasting good money.
It's closer to like 1 in 30 in my case. :P
Wow! Out of the two cars I have right now, both in the IS price range ($30-40k) and both purchased new, I test drove two other cars for the first purchase and three alternatives for the more recent one. Of course, it's your money and your time, but from the manufacturer and dealers' point of view, I wonder if it even makes sense to attract the manual fans if 30 test drives is the norm. At 2-3hrs per trip, 60-90 dealership hours, or some $2000 labor cost before any capital amortization.
Comments
"The base IS 250 will represent about 50 percent of the sedan's volume, . . ."
"The IS 250 awd will represent about 30 percent of total IS sales and will be offered only with an automatic transmission."
It should be clear that your conclusion that "So only 70% of the IS250s will be rwd?! Lets be generous and make 20% manual. That's 3150 IS250s with manuals! 22500 X .70 X .20. Hmmm, on the cheap car. Yeah this all makes sense now...lol"
is way off the mark! Why?
"The IS 250 awd will represent about 30 percent of total IS sales" That's 30% of total IS sales! not total IS250 sales. Do you actually believe IS250AWD is projected to outsell IS250 base RWD? (50% - 30% = 20%) Therefore, the "The base IS250" referred to in the first quote referred to IS250 base RWD alone, not all IS with 2.5 liter engines.
Therefore, the projection is 50% IS250 base RWD, 30% IS250AWD, leaving 20% for IS350. That's 9000 IS350 total projected, applying the 10% manua ratio, resulting in 900 cars, vs. 2250 potential IS250 manuals. Not to mention that the 2.5 engine needs the manual more and is therefore more manual ratio for IS250 may well be higher than for IS350.
On the side note, please refrain from characterizing my analysis as "specious agument" until you can realisticly rebutt it. Overly indugent sarcasm does not boster your argument either.
330i
330iT
330Xi
330XiT
330Ci
330CiC
530i
530iT
530Xi
530XiT
X3 3.0
X5 3.0
Z4 3.0
That's 13 models with one certification. That's part of the reason why BMW uses the same engine-tranny combo not only for different bodies in the same series but also across series. Out of all the myriads of models that BMW offers, there are only a few engines offered in the US: 2.5, 3.0, 4.4 and 6.0; we don't get the 2.0 I6, diesels, 3.0 V8, 3.5 V8 etc..
Sorry to anyone who's bored by the BMW reference. It's a way of showing that 900 expected IS350 manual sales can be a real problem for certification cost. When Lexus offers the same 3.5 on GS and SC not to menton IS wagons and convertibles, (like BMW offering the same 3.0 on wagons, 5, X3, X5 and Z4), certifying for manual may well be worth it by then.
And the Xi's have different transmissions with different ratios than the RWD models.. So, that is six different combos for that engine alone..
Don't forget the 2.5 litre... That would be six more... with Xi and RWD transmissions being different..
there is also a 4.8 litre model... and the 3.2 M3 engine, etc, etc, etc...
And Toyota can't certify 4 models?
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The difference between RWD and AWD is quite limited, not sure how much difference would necessitate a recertification (could be behind BMW's decision to make 325 carry a 3.0 liter for E90 in the US). Also, the AWD engine-tranny combos are used extensively in the X5 and X3 series.
Don't forget the 2.5 litre... That would be six more... with Xi and RWD transmissions being different..
As far as I know, the 2.5 does not have SMG option. Xi combo certification can be leveraged
through X3 and X5 sales. That does beg the question, why SMG is not offered on the 2.5? Certification cost?
there is also a 4.8 litre model... and the 3.2 M3 engine, etc, etc, etc...
4.8 is in the process of replacing 4.4. Both the 4.8 and the 3.2 based cars have such high margins that certification cost can be recouped. e.g. people buying M3 are quite willing to pay $4000 for SMG, etc.
And Toyota can't certify 4 models?
BMW charges $1250 for automatic option, the current price difference between IS300 and IS300 automatic is only $600!
If it were so, we wouldn't get all of the choices that we do... Also, if it were that expensive, we would likely be getting the new 3.0 litre V6 out of the GS300, instead of a new 2.5 litre.. That way, no extra cost at all for the slushbox version..
Poor marketing, plain and simple..
regards,
kyfdx
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I admit if they meant to say 30% of all IS's will be AWD, you are correct. That is probably the case and entirely my fault. I apologize for the error...I could drum excuses but the fact is I flubbed. I apologize again.
Still think your argument's base regarding manuals is totally specious. Can't help it. It smells like total bull to me. The difference between 2250 and 900 cars is not so great that it would even dent Toyota's cafeteria straw purchasing power at company plants. Especially when one considers the potential for higher profit on the more expensive models - bigger engine, usually means bigger price tag that easily outstrips the real cost of producing the engine.
I do apologize for my error though.
330i ZHP manual
330i ZHP auto
Can our friend explain how a low production variation on the 3.0 with different gearing got certified? Oh right, cost of the option. Yeah that cost also involves different headers, cams, ECU, muffler, suspension, exterior components, wheels, interior components.
His claim that it's too expensive for so few cars seems way off base when we consider the low numbers for the 330i and the even lower numbers for the ZHP manuals/autos.
"When did I write that a 3.0 inline 6 performs like a honda 4?"
THen you say: "
"I wrote that BMW's vaunted and highly overrated inline 6s are gutless wonders that must be wound up like a Honda motor to motivate the car."
Huh..."must be wound up like a Honda motor".
Sounds like you are saying exactly what you said you didn't say.
Okay, here we go again.
Okay, 3 cars Acura TSX manual
BMW 325i manual
BMW 330i manual
All weigh within 100 pounds(base curb weight) from about 3200 for the TSX to a little under 3300 for the 330i.
Power ratings
TSX: 166lb-ft @4500RPM
325i: 175lb-ft @3500RPM
330i: 214lb-ft @3500RPM
Remembering what was said above about curb weights, how is it that the BMWs are the ones with no torque? Obviously they have more at more useable RPM. Not to mention we all know the reality that BMW engines are under-rated on paper.
Oh and the S2000. Here is a car with 162lb-ft @6,500RPM. How is that better than 214lb-ft@3,500RPM in the Z4 3.0? Anyone?
Manuals account for maybe 15% of that? So 1200 cars. Of those manuals, how many had the ZHP option? Maybe 30% or about 360 cars. Heck even saying 50% is only 600 cars.
What about the automatics, 6800 cars, maybe 30% with ZHP package (seems high) - or 2040 cars or so?
Did BMW find a way to defer those fees for certifying their special package that's sold in small numbers?
"When did I write that a 3.0 inline 6 performs like a honda 4?"
THen you say: "
"I wrote that BMW's vaunted and highly overrated inline 6s are gutless wonders that must be wound up like a Honda motor to motivate the car."
Again, at no point did I mention Honda's 4 cylinder engines. I pointed out that like ANY Honda motor, you gotta rev the heck out of a BMW inline 6 to motivate that car. Not too complicated.
Remembering what was said above about curb weights, how is it that the BMWs are the ones with no torque? Obviously they have more at more useable RPM. Not to mention we all know the reality that BMW engines are under-rated on paper.
This has nothing to do with what I wrote. I was commenting that BMW engines are just as peaky and torqueless as Honda engines. I didn't say Honda engines were better. I was citing the lack of thrust in BMW's engines and that when I drive them I'm forced to wind them up to the stratosphere to get them moving.
BGDC's point of view: BMW engines have no guts below 4000 rpm. You can post whatever stats you want, the fact is I own one and drive two of them often. Don't much care for the fact neither car has any guts below 4k rpm. The G35 3.5 pulls like hard from the get go; as does the Subaru 2.5 GT. Those cars have decent torque in my opinion. My car doesn't. Why are you challenging an opinion?
I just gave you factual numbers about Honda's and BMW's torque numbers. How can you pick up from that that BMWs engines are just as torqueless as Honda engines???
"I pointed out that like ANY Honda motor, you gotta rev the heck out of a BMW inline 6 to motivate that car. Not too complicated."
I don't know, I've driven many Hondas(even own one with 195lb-ft of torque), and many many BMWs and I see the opposite of what you see. oh well, lower numbers must mean greater torque, go figure!
BMW may well be able to absorb certification cost better than Toyota can. BMW has the highest per unit profit margin in the industry.
Or... Maybe they couldn't meet the emissions requirements with that engine and a manual transmission.. (which is why the new '06 325i has a 3.0 litre engine).
We'll probably never know for sure... but, I'm betting they get raked over the coals for this decision..
Certification will look cheap compared to the cost of bad press.
regards,
kyfdx
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Pick up from that? Because I own a BMW and feel it's that way.
I don't know, I've driven many Hondas(even own one with 195lb-ft of torque), and many many BMWs and I see the opposite of what you see. oh well, lower numbers must mean greater torque, go figure!
The numbers don't mean squat if the reality one experiences is different than what is claimed. Perception is reality. In my 330i if I accelerate at 50% throttle and shift at 3k rpm, I will have every manner of car on the road passing me. I start at 3k rpm at over 50% and move to WOT, the car will move but not with the gusto I expect. Not until 4k rpm does the car start to really gain steam.
Funny how people at bimmerfest always want to challenge this too. IMHO, BMW engines are smooth, peaky and torqueless.
I'm sure 99% of BMW owners would agree with you!
You should take a poll over on the 3-series board and ask them if their cars are torqueless like Honda 4-cylinder's! I bet they would doubt you own a BMW.
Let's move on.
The cost of certification is not just paperwork and fees, but also doing the engineering modifications to make it pass certification tests. Emission difficulty and the extra engineering and manufacturing cost to make it certifiable can be one of the reasons. There is no such thing impossible to pass an emission test; all a matter of how much money you are willing to throw at it and have it solved. Apparently BMW decided it's less expensive to ship the 3.0 and not having to deal with trying to certify a new 2.5 at all.
We'll probably never know for sure... but, I'm betting they get raked over the coals for this decision..
Certification will look cheap compared to the cost of bad press.
Perhaps . . . like I said, manual 0-60 can be an important marketting point even if it means little in terms of actual sales. We shall see if the buyers in this segment are as dumb as those in the Civic market segment, whether people realize that the manual 0-60 has nothing to do with their own automatic's ability to do 0-60. Based on the success of G35 in its first year, not having a manual doesn't seem like a big deal.
http://blue-guy.com/images/Direct_Front.jpg
Unlike most people, I'm never satisfied. If it's got 200 lb-ft, I want 250; if it has 250, then gimme 400, etc. My car was a blast at first, now it's fun but not enough. Very worried that the 06 330i will feel anemic to me and then I'm gonna have to wait 2 years for an M3. LOL
Funny thing, in no forum on Edmunds can you not get into a pissing, king of the hill contest (I'm no saint either). Why is it so very very very hard, to offer up subjective comments, information or opinions in general without getting killed. You should see those on the Infiniti M board, I got killed for using the word settled!!!
BINGO!
One caution to Lexus fans. They're already declaring IS the one to dethrone 3er. If I remember correctly, they said the same thing about GS and 5er. Well, we all know how that turned out. Infiniti M just about swept every comparo with GS, the latest being the May Motor Trend.
For those who attended the NY Auto Show and saw the IS250/350 in person, could you give us your perspective and impressions of the car in person?
From looking at the spec sheet/press release - all optional features available on the IS350 will be available on the IS250. The only exception I noticed was that 18" wheels are not an option on the AWD. Is this correct or did I miss something.
Or you could just get a S2000. Now that I know lower numbers represent greater power, I might get a Accord 4-cylinder instead of a IS350. The Accord will probably be quicker during part throttle launches!! LOL
Magazines are around to make money. How do they make money? By creating stories.
BTW, the Infiniti M was never expected to be a slouch. The magazines hyped that car up immensely also. Not to mention Infiniti has been hyping it's performance potential for about a year.
By the time you have a Bimmer with like displacement and power comparable to Honda's 3.0L V6 engine you have to spend over $40k. Some comparison.
The 2.5L V6 in the IS will be just fine in my book. 200 or so hp with just enough displacement to give it a little oomph but not too much so it'll rev like silk. Coming out of a 2.0L 4 cylinder, the IS will be perfect.
My god, you never give up.
Well, I will say the girl who was working the podium was the hottest one on the floor
Regarding the car, I can sum it up as a baby GS. Very muscular lines and a much more "adult" profile. No clear lens taillamps or Boy racer effects to be found. And the interior is finally on par with other Lexus products. When I asked her price, she said she had no idea.
And coming from my fourth 4-cyl Honda Accord, I can say I will be plenty pleased with an IS250 manual. Compared to the base 325ci that was on the floor with a $33,000 price tag BEFORE options, the IS will be a bargain IMO.
I wish. Not too much to tell...
Anyway, the car (IS350) was on a platform, and I was 8 feet away or so. Looks (to me) like a mini-GS in person. I was a bit surprised that the belt-line looked pretty high to both me and my wife, making the view out seem narrow - think "chopped". Can't tell what it would be like from inside, but in combo with the way the rear slopes and the c-pillar shape I'd be a bit concerned about visibility to the rear (if anyone could catch up with us ;-). Still, liked the look quite a bit.
The rep may have known less than we (on the forum) know about the car's specs. Or, he was intentionally discreet. I asked specifically about the IS250 hp - 200+ (press release), 201 (from Geneva), 212 (rumor from j-spec engine). He stuck with the party line (press release), but then said that it should be greater than the outgoing IS300. Couldn't tell if he was blowing smoke to tell me what I wanted to hear, or leaking the news to an interested customer. My opinion is he didn't know. (To be fair, if I ran Lexus, I wouldn't want him to go outside the official line to some random car show attendee.)
It appears that there is lots up in the air - I get the sense that the car is still in some levels of development and decision-making. That would make sense with a Fall delivery, I guess.
Why? There is only a 3-photo, 1/2 page text, 5x7 foldout available. Not much info. It sticks with 200+, 300+, but only shows 2 transmissions:
"Six speed paddle-shift sequential automatic" and "Six-speed manual transmission (IS250 RWD)". Of course, it shows this info right next to a photo of a floor-mounted auto with a tiptronic-style shift gate. Perhaps there are also paddle-shifters on the same car, but does that make sense? Don't know. Maybe my feeling of a paddle-shifter on the wheel is wrong. Maybe they think a +/- gate on the console is "paddle-shifting". I wouldn't.
VDIM standard on the 350, VSC standard on the 250.
Discs (F/R) 11.6/11.4 250 and 13.1/12.2 350.
180.1L, 70.9W, 56.1H, 107.5Wheelbase
There might have been more text in the small print disclaimer at the bottom than there was in the specs. :-(
Anyway, my impressions, and the (very limited) news. No IS350 manual or engine certification flames in response, please. Tim
Infiniti does the same thing on the new M - you can't get the sport package with AWD.
"Introducing the next milestone in performance: the all-new Lexus IS. Available with a bullish 300-plus horsepower, 3.5-liter V6, six-speed paddle-shift sequential automatic, 18-inch wheels* - even all-wheel drive capability. And all perfectly packaged in a sleek, muscled frame with a longer wheelbase and a wider, sportier stance. It's a new level of athleticism, yet remarkably with all the luxury details you'd expect of a Lexus. In other words, history in the making. The new 2006 IS. Racing to you this fall."
I assume Lexus will allow posting to more greatly disseminate the information.
Hey. It was just out of fun! Don't take it seriously!
I have had a lot of free time lately due to unemployement!
Every other post now mentions the above initials.
I guess I am just ahead of my time.
The current theme of this forum is that Bimmer fans are getting real nervous so they end up yelling obscenities(except for the four letter words--well at least not in this forum) about the Lexus IS. Wonderful theory but a bit out of touch with reality.
The reality is this: Most the vocal tranny complaints are not from Bimmer fans(who are content with Bimmers otherwise they would not be fans) but from two other types of individuals.
1)Those objective individauls who dont give a damned about being loyal to one luxury marque above another, but who spent the last few years or weeks fantasizing about driving a powerful manual IS350( not a manual IS250).
2)The devoted Lexus fans who feel betrayed that they will not be driving the Lexus they dreamt about.
"Are you stalking me? Because that'd be super." - Van Wilder.
1)Those objective individauls who dont give a damned about being loyal to one luxury marque above another, but who spent the last few years or weeks fantasizing about driving a powerful manual IS350( not a manual IS250).
2)The devoted Lexus fans who feel betrayed that they will not be driving the Lexus they dreamt about.
I doubt there are that many devoted Lexus fans who dream about manual tranny. How many manual tranny cars does Lexus sell right now any way? If one is obsessed with manual tranny, he/she would have no reason to be a devoted Lexus fan.
A devoted Lexus fan is first foremost into getting a great luxury car, a reliable luxury car, sporty or otherwise, at a relatively reasonable price (compared to the grossly overpriced Germans). A devoted Lexus fan who is intent on buying an automatic IS350 would not be slightly interested in chipping in to pay for someone else' wet dream IS350 manual getting federally certified, especially since those wet dreamers seldomly ever translate into real buyers (they buy like 1 car out of 10 that they tire kick); why bother wasting good money.
regards,
kyfdx
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Huhhh!
People who prefer manual trannys = Wet Dreamers
brightness04, the equation you present above is very interesting. Do I sense a bit of hostility here?
Tell us how you feel about that... ;-)
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From being a person whose dreams come true to a person whose dreams end up making him wet.
We'll see when the pricing comes out if we can get an IS350 with xenon and sport package for 35-36k. With the way Lexus prices have crept up, I doubt it. We'll see though.
(they buy like 1 car out of 10 that they tire kick); why bother wasting good money.
It's closer to like 1 in 30 in my case. :P
brightness04, the equation you present above is very interesting. Do I sense a bit of hostility here?
No hostility at all. I was not the one who postulated that there are actually people who dreams about cars (your earlier post did), especially considering Lexus hardly offers any manual tranny in any of their cars, dreaming about a manual is setting one up to be disappointed, no?
I think the half-joking adjactive ("wet") I added to what's already postulated ("dreamer"; people who dreams) is positively tame, considering that my valid arguments that have been seriously called "specious." I mean, seriously, how far is a "devoted fan" who "dreams" about cars that do not exist from a excitable "wet dreamer"? ;-)
The Euro 325i still retains the 2.5L displacement and only makes 188hp.
http://www.bmw.com/generic/com/en/products/automobiles/showroom/3series/sedan/index.html
If Toyota can get that much more power out of that displacement and still make the engine docile at low rpm, they'll be achieving a miracle in my book.
Totally opposite IMO. Given that the original IS was blasted for coming out of the gate slushbox only means that there are many, including those from the Auto rags who were anxiously waiting for Lexus to release a formidable 3-series competitor. So Lexus, here's another chance...
It's closer to like 1 in 30 in my case. :P
Wow! Out of the two cars I have right now, both in the IS price range ($30-40k) and both purchased new, I test drove two other cars for the first purchase and three alternatives for the more recent one. Of course, it's your money and your time, but from the manufacturer and dealers' point of view, I wonder if it even makes sense to attract the manual fans if 30 test drives is the norm. At 2-3hrs per trip, 60-90 dealership hours, or some $2000 labor cost before any capital amortization.