That word kills me. I seriously doubt there are enough "enthusiasts" around to even matter anymore. The fact that BMW is one of the few carsmakers to offer manual transmission throughout the model line bears that out. If there were as many "enthusaiasts" out there, the pickins wouldn't be so slim in the RWD sport sedan market.
A LOT of people are gonna cross shop the TSX vs IS vs. C-class vs. A4 vs. Saab. That's the main reason we are getting the 2.5L engine. So that Lexus can hit a competitive price point. If this car was more about "enthusiasts", there wouldn't be a question about the manual 3.5L, it would be a given.
This car is gonna be like an SUV. It has high performance potential, but most of them will probably never see any actual high performance duty. And by high performance duty I'm not talking high speed runs down the interstate. My wifes Accord can cruise at triple digit speeds all day. Heck for that matter, so can my Civic Si.
The problem with bimmer (and all other german makes for that matter) is that they are becoming overly complicated without maturing the sound engineering basis necessary. I don't care how high tech it is, if it doesn't last, it's not a good engineering.
E90 3 has "break dry" as a standard feature for gods sake. I wonder if there's any hope in german reliability.
Actually, the "sequential" manual was a flub in the press release.
Wale, I would be very interested to know where to find this clarification from Lexus? As kyfdx pointed out indirectly :P, I guessed the original press release meant an SMG type transmission due to the identical wording used in Toyota's press about the MR2 transmission. The fact that Toyota messed this up is completely surprising to me. I am not used to such massive corporations revealing new information about unreleased models without examining every word with the attention to detail of an engineer moonlighting as a lawyer.
kyfdx and dewey, sorry about any misunderstanding, but I did say it was just my bet
Too true; if the E90 ends up with an Achilles heel it will be in the systems, and I'm not really a "gadgets are good" kinda guy. Also, as the cars grow in size, they shrink in personability, IMO, which makes them continually less sporty. But I think from all the specs I've now read, accurate and otherwise, the E90 will retain the crown as the benchmark sport sedan for BMW. I won't likely be owning one, but there it is.
As far as breaking down goes, if it won't get to 100K miles without failing, my (general) personal feeling is it doesn't belong in a modern car. OTOH, as I am and will be leasing for the foreseeable future, and like to turn my cars every 30-39 months, I don't really care if it makes it quite that far.
Just remember there's plenty of tech in Japanese cars too. The advantage there is usually that it's not gen1 stuff. Typically it's an idea that's been copied, or one-offed, and refined, so it may be somewhat longer lasting, but you won't get most of it as "first on the block".
The more I read, the more it looks like a loaded A3 3.2 DSG for me. I'll wait until I can try all entries in the metal first of course, but this Lexus-conquest is not looking like a Lexus-retention right now...
Toyota did not make false statements about Ford and the Hybrid systems. What Toyota did was simply not say anything, and some press thought Toyota should have come and say that Ford is licensing similar technology that Ford themselves developed. Personally I don't think Toyota needed to say anything.
"Usually it just doesn't "happen" that technologies are similar."
Really?
What about all the carmakers that developed skid control systems? They all came out within a few years and it's not like a skid control system can be developed in six months.
Or we can use the example of adaptive cruise control systems. For example, MB came out with Radar, Toyota came out with Laser guided system. Similar systems but definately developed in different manners.
Point is different manufacturer's develop similar items all the time. It is not coincidence that it happens. They develop items based on customer feedback, etc. and most of the time, I bet you customers all over the world come up similar features that they want.
I will look for the article. I have to do some searching.
Remember also, that while article's clearly state that Nissan is *buying* the technology from Toyota, in Ford's case it said Ford was *licensing* the technology from Toyota.
"Obviously the IS250 is competing directly with the TSX market, in price, size, handling, feature content, engines, and transmissions. "
Competing yes. COmpeting on price..you do not know that yet because IS prices haven't been released.
"You say TSX is just a dressed up Accord, well the IS250 is simply a 4 door Scion TC."
Huh. let's see the TSX is the same platform as the Accord sold in the US, just a shorter platform. Let's see the TSX is called the Accord in Europe. Let's see the IS250/350 is RWD, whereas the Scion TC is FWD. That means the 2 cars have 2 different platforms whereas the Accord/TSX do not.
"Does a 2.2 I4 S2000 not compare with a Z4 3.0 I6? I believe the S2000 has more power...and is faster."
yeah they compare, but which one do you have to drive like you stole it to get any amount of power?
Let's face it, the S2000 may be fast if you have the pedal floored, otherwise it's a dog. ANd yes, I've driven one. At part throttle it's a dog also. And don't tell me it's not the case, because any car(like the S2000) that lacks low end torque is going to be a dog! Meanwhile the Z4 has much more torque, a flatter torque curve, and has gobs of torque down low in the rev range, which means you don't have to drive it like you stole it.
I doubt it will be 208, just because Toyota loves going in 5-bhp increments. Also, I just noticed today the Lexus RX300 for sale in Great Britain is listed at 201bhp yet that same 3.0L V6 that used to be the RX300 here was rated at 225bhp.
Some drivers enjoy the high end horsepower of the s2000, and others don't like reving engines that high. They like their low end toruqe. It just depends on the driver. Neither is better. But in this case, the S2000 is the faster car.
Competing yes. COmpeting on price..you do not know that yet because IS prices haven't been released.
Did they not release that the IS250 will start just about right where the current IS300 is priced? again..they will compete based on price.
Huh. let's see the TSX is the same platform as the Accord sold in the US, just a shorter platform. Let's see the TSX is called the Accord in Europe. Let's see the IS250/350 is RWD, whereas the Scion TC is FWD. That means the 2 cars have 2 different platforms whereas the Accord/TSX do not.
The TSX is NOT on the same platform as the US Accord....again, get your facts straight.
And who was calling the TSX engine "a tiny 4 banger". Actually the TSX engine is quite large for a 4 cylinder. The largest mass market 4 cylinder engine is 2.5 liters. A 1.8 Liter I4 would be an example of a "tiny 4 banger".
Sorry don't mean to dwell on the TSX, just please get your facts straight.
From everything I've read the European Accord is a modified version of the same Accord platform that is sold all over the world. So, yes it is the Accord. The interior's even look similar.
2.4L 4-cylinder. I see just about every 4-cylinder as tiny. and well, a 6-cylinder is a 6-cylinder. I would much prefer a 6 over a 4. A 6 generally provides more torque at a more useable RPM, a better torque curve, and better refinement.
You can try to make the 4-banger in your TSX seem better than a 6-cylinder, but I'll take the 6-cylinder in the IS250, the 6 in the BMW 325, the 6 in the MB C-class, and the 6 in the Audi over the TSX's 4 any day of the week. That doesn't mean the TSX has a bad engine. It's a great engine, just IMO, not really comparable to the V6s offered in the price range by the competition.
I've driven a 6-speed TSX, so don't think you can change my mind. At part throttle, it was a slug around town. But it's great if you drive like Mario ANdretti all day long.
"Toyota did not make false statements about Ford and the Hybrid systems. What Toyota did was simply not say anything, and some press thought Toyota should have come and say that Ford is licensing similar technology that Ford themselves developed. Personally I don't think Toyota needed to say anything."
If Toyota didn't say anything, and Ford was talking to Honda, and Dodge caught and ear infection.... then why are we talking about it???kinda like who's on first, who's on second???
Your confusing the issue, with the cruise control systems, in the instances as you explained, they're going for the same net result, but getting there a different way. In the instance of Toyota and Ford, the technology was so similar, that one could be held liable. That does not happen by accident. That's more in line with information leaking then coincidence.
In short Ford is required to licence a number of Toyota patents because Ford's technology is similar to Toyota's. Ford has not received Toyota technical assistance in developing the technology. Ford has however contracted Aisin AW, a Japanese auto component manufacturer part-owned by Toyota, to supply the hybrid systems. Odly, Aisin does not provide Toyota with hybrid components. Also the system Toyota and Ford have developed differs from the Prius' system.
The bottom line is that both Toyota and Ford have denied that Ford bought the technology from Toyota. Ford does build on the ideas Toyota patented. Hope this helps.
Well it is somewhat confusing, but the US accord does not share platform with the TSX. The confusion is because in Europe, they call their TSX - the accord, and they call our US Accord something else. But the bottom line was, I wasn't simply saying the platforms are the same. I was saying that this IS looks like a 4 door Scion TC with more luxury equipment.
When comparing 4 cylinder engines to ALL engines, then yes, they are tiny. When comparing just 4 cylinder engines, there are small 4s and big 4s. Just as a 2.5 V6 is a small V6, and a 4.0 is a large V6. I'm not saying this 2.4 I4 is better than the V6/I6 you mentioned, because I'm not familiar with them all. I'm just trying to ensure everyone here is getting the accurate facts.
Again regarding FWD vs RWD, and 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder; one is not better than the other. It's simply the driver's choice and what type of feel that driver prefers. obviously you prefer a car with low end torque, but in turn you sacrifice the high end horsepower. Generally, a V6 maxes out at 6000 rpm...whereas an I4 is making peak horsepower just beyond that range. Personally, I don't like engine's that fall asleep half way through the power band...that's partly why I chose TSX. With new technologies, and iVTEC (or whatever you may call it) on intake and exhaust, this helps both low end torque as well as high rpm hp...that's what I'm hoping for the IS250/350.
To go back to a previous point, the Z4 may have more torque than the S2000, and shoot off the line quicker, but the S2000 will pass the Z4 once the rpm's build. And this is not just 0-60...if you don't like the fact that the S2000 is a slug off the line, then don't buy it. But that doesn't mean it's a bad engine. It's just not your preference.
slight correction- the largest mass market 4 cylinder in the US is from Toyota, and is a 2.7L thats been used since 1996 at the time, in the 4Runner, Tacoma, and T100, I believe.
Toyota still offers a VVTi 2.7L in the new Tacoma, producing 164 hp at 5200 RPM and 183 foot-pounds of twist at 3800 RPM. Thats the most torque from any normally aspirated 4 cylinder I can think of, FWIW.
I would guess the cost of certification is less than the cost of one print ad in Car & Driver to defend their choice.
I'm not in the auto industry, but I buy magazine ads for my business quite often. The cost of a full page in a trade magazine typically run $5000. The cost for a private importer importing a single vehicle runs to the tune of $100,000 or more. For a manufacturer planning on bringing thousands of copies, it's safe to assume that it would cost millions if not tens of millions. The projected total annual sales of IS line is 45k units; of which, if E46 325i vs. 330i is any indication, about 15% consists of the bigger engine, so roughly 7500 units will be IS350. Of that if 10% choose manual, the grand total of manual IS350 in a year would be 750 units. Even if certification only costs $3 million (a gross underestimation, IMHO), that's $4000 per vehicle. Now, how many of people in the $30-40k price market are willing to pony up $4000 for the priviledge of a stick&tri-ped manual? $4000 for an SMG on an M3 perhaps, but definitely not a conventional manual on an entry-luxury sport sedan. That means, if Lexus wants to bring in the IS350 manual, they'd have to slip the bill under to buyers of IS350 automatic and IS250's. Would not be a smart move if they want to drum up sales for the first year by holding down the prices to a target.
The TSX don't belong here since this is not a comparison board.
However, how anyone compares a 4-banger car against a 6-cylinder car is beyond me. Is it bcos they are priced same ? Isn't it pitiful enough that a entry-lux car has a 4-cylinder engine ? For what purpose is Honda selling the TSX at close to $30K ? That is a rip-off, imo. I'd rather get an Accord EX-V6 at about same price, which is a much better deal, imo.
Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that Lexus decided that it was not economically viable to certify BOTH the IS250 and the IS350 with a manual transmission; so they chose to certify only one. Fair enough, I might even buy that argument. That said; why in the name of Rudy (thanks Bill) did they choose to do the IS250 in lieu of the IS350? The fact is that most folks that can afford this kind of a car don't buy a Manual Transmission because they cannot afford the Automatic. With that in mind, why put it only on the cheaper model? Personally, I'm betting that there would be a greater percentage of folks who would opt for an IS350 with a stick as opposed to an IS250 similarly equipped. I know I would.
Will I consider an IS250 with a hand shaker? Nope, I want more juice. Will I consider an IS350 with a slush box? Nope, I want the aforementioned hand shaker. Sorry Lexus, I won't even bother stopping in at a showroom to have a look-see.
What tangents are we off on now (on the IS250/350 discussion thread): - patent infringement of hybrid technology - Z4 torque - BMW will always keep the crown
Questions: Anyone have any ideas about the "goodness" of the new suspension on the IS250/350?
When Lexus says the body will be 3" longer/wider/taller (rough measurement - I don't remember the exact) - is this roughly the same interior space (estimated) of the civic, accord, TL or what other car is analogous?
What is VVTi (what are the benefits)? Direct injection (merits/motoring goodness)?
Let's face it, the S2000 may be fast if you have the pedal floored, otherwise it's a dog. ANd yes, I've driven one. At part throttle it's a dog also. And don't tell me it's not the case, because any car(like the S2000) that lacks low end torque is going to be a dog! Meanwhile the Z4 has much more torque, a flatter torque curve, and has gobs of torque down low in the rev range, which means you don't have to drive it like you stole it.
Um, have you driven a BMW 3.0? The engines are gutless unless you push them hard and keep them over 4k. sorry, i own a bmw with that engine and it's got anything but torque. unless you keep the revs high every car around you will pass you at a stoplight. it's just like a honda motor, imho. only built into an unreliable car.
of cylinders. Audi, Benz, Saab, Acura all have entry lux 4 cylinder engines. Saab has never had ANY 6 cylinder engines. It's quite shallow to base a car buying purchase on how many cylinders there are. Either you like the car or you don't.
The TSX sells at $28k with the 4 cylinder because it would sell at over $30k with the V6. These cars have much more to like than just an engine.
I mean heck why complain about a $30k 4 cylinder when BMW etc sell $45k 6 cylinder ones. That should be pretty rediculous too. Ever price a loaded 6 cylinder E-class?
the 525 BMW is gutless and I dont think anyone in this forum would disagree!
BMW can sell 6 cyl. at hefty prices because they can provide as much and more oomph than many 8 cylinders. In fact in some cases a 6 cyl. BMW can be considered a compelling bargain!
What about IS pricing? I guess we will have to wait before debating IS value.
Couple things, someone posted that link to auto news about the engines in the lexus is250/350.
Something caught my eye: The base IS 250 will represent about 50 percent of the sedan's volume, which is projected to be about 45,000 units. U.S. sales of the previous IS 300 peaked at 22,486 units in 2001, then fell off sharply. In 2004, Lexus sold just 9,972 units here.
Hey, the 2.5 is supposed to be HALF of the car's production. Hmmm, what does that mean about the specious argument that the manual in the 350 would be too expensive to certify vis-a-vis the manual certification in the IS250? Both engines are brand new, so both would require the same certification effort. Huh, but still Lexus decided not to make the 350 manual. It keeps getting weirder. http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=52376
But wait, it gets stranger... The IS 250 awd will represent about 30 percent of total IS sales and will be offered only with an automatic transmission.
So only 70% of the IS250s will be rwd?! Lets be generous and make 20% manual. That's 3150 IS250s with manuals! 22500 X .70 X .20. Hmmm, on the cheap car. Yeah this all makes sense now...lol
As for 4 bangers. I'd take an Audi 2.0T ANYDAY over an e46 325i. Heck, the 1.8T is a better, more enjoyable engine, imho. It's light, power's immediate (not so of the anemic 2.5 inline 6), mileage is good and the engine is easily tuned to 200/250 lb-ft for $600. I had a Jetta 1.8t and while the car wasn't that great I couldn't fathom plunking down 30k for a 325i that had less pull than my jetta. sort of like the dilema current IS300 owners will face if they look at the IS250?
What about IS pricing? I guess we will have to wait before debating IS value
Lexus clearly stated the IS250 will start around the price of the current IS300. The press release shows a whole boat of options too. So figure 30k for the base IS300. Sport package, xenons and you're gonna be up round 32k I'd expect. Lots of other options but it's all silly stuff like navi, radar cruise, back up camera, heated seats, etc.
Is why we don't get a 4 cylinder Bimmer anymore. That's why you have to pay nearly $35k to put a butt in a decently equipped one. They make several 4 cylinder 3-series for other markets.
The 6 cylinder IS250 will have to be a revver too to get at it's power. There's not much displacement for low rev power. Might as well have a 4 cylinder and save some weight. I just hope it gets better mpg than the IS300. That car was thirsty.
And that gutless 525 costs $42k base with "leatherette" upholstery.
Toyota/Lexus has stated that fuel efficiency of the 2.5L RWD vehicle will average high 20s. Thats quite good, IMO, especially when you consider that the new, $26.5K 150hp Jetta P2 can muster ratings of but 22/30, even with a 6 speed auto.
Also, the IS250 does have a fairly high power peak, (if overseas versions are indicative) around 6400 RPM.
But, peak torque (expected to be just ONE foot pound short of the half-liter larger BMW 325i's 3.0L unit) comes at a usable 3800 RPM, which, without driving the car, would seem to speak to the flexibility and around-town friendliness of this powerplant, especially with the manual.
tankertoad - 3/26/2005 1:40:49 PM Title: I drove it last week Comment: Last week, I was part of a market research group and had an opportunity to drive the "prototype" IS 350 against a 330 non sport (and static expamples of a TL and G35 sedan). Firstly, let me say that I mentioned to them that I handicapped the bimmer as they were having me compare a "future" car with a seven year old design. Now if they had an e90... The Lexus is a big jump from the current model in every way. It's aggressively designed (the back flanks are too high though) with an exhaust on each end. The interior is comfy and sporty with nice instrumentation, a start button and paddle shifting (the belt line was too high for my liking). The engine ROCKS! 300 HP V6 that was as smooth as an I6. The engine note and exhaust were too muted for my tastes but the car was Lexus quiet. The acceleration and responsiveness of the engine was very impressive and the 330 was noticably slower (but not slow). Wonderful powerplant. The cornering on 18" S0-3s was also very strong. The brakes were overboosted/overmodulated but we were told it's only a prototype hand built. The turning radius was tiny and the ride soaked up bumps just like my bimmer. All that being said, I still preferred the 330 (barely). The value for money goes all to Lexus and the performance was intoxicating (for a 40K sedan) but nobody can make a car that connects with a driver like BMW. Lexus does what they always do - they copy the best and do it better. Objectively, the IS is a better car; subjectively I don't think so. Look the the IS 350 to be more powerful and better optioned than an e90 for about 1-2K less dinero. It won't steal hardcore bimmerfans or the status buyers, but it will make inroads into the remainder of BMW's buying constituency. BTW, the IS 250 will have 200 HP - I think they'll sell more of the 350s. Forget Audi, Lexus is the new sparring partner for the 3 series.
I think you're missing the point of a TSX or IS250, they aren't trying to be "luxury" cars per say, they're supposed to be sports sedans. In that role the TSX, in manual form seems pretty good at that role, plus it has just about everything else you could want (feature wise) in a sub 30K car.
If the IS250 starts below 30K is it not worthy of luxury brand label? They're sports sedans.
bmw sold 106,000 3 series last year in the US?? didn't 10,000 of them catch on fire?? and maybe another 10,000 recalled??
bmw has become the benchmark for connecting drivers to the road and the service dept at the same time.
look at the new IS. it will hands down be able to do everything you ask of it. it will be able to outrun a 330i, match it in braking and handling. it will be quiet as a mouse inside as the silky smooth V6 catapults you right past every A4 and 330i out there. the IS250's value will be hard for any overpriced 325i to match. i mean these 184hp 325i's can go for 36K how the heck do you think you are going to get a 200hp one for any less??? well, stripped down to nothing you can get a good bimmer for 32K. goodness.
the mags will never ever be able to rip on the interior as cheap looking either. i mean, unless everyone is on drugs only the most biased folks like car and driver will even think about crowning the 330i as king (and they will).
i mean what more can anyone say about the IS other than the fact that it will set the roads on fire and the 3 series will continue to catch on fire. pretty simple.
i agree merc with your post. the TSX is not chopped liver for sure. i do love the TSX but you can see that the rims are not up to par with what you'll see on a IS and the interior is not as nice. don't you think this new IS is very luxurious looking inside??? i mean it looks very GS like inside and it has all the goods.
i agree that a sports sedan doesn't need the lexus like interior but to take down a bmw in the comparisons you do need it. just look at what happened with the current IS300?? i love the interior but the snobs that compare these cars couldn't get by it. too cheap for a lexus. how can you not at least like the drilled aluminum pedals?? well now they have almost nothing to say imo. nothing. except that they want a manual 350 to go head to head with a 330i.
"if you don't like the fact that the S2000 is a slug off the line, then don't buy it. But that doesn't mean it's a bad engine. It's just not your preference."
Where do you get the idea I think the S2000 or TSX is a bad car or have bad engines? I think both are great cars, but I just don't see the TSX as being the car a BMW 325i is. And probably IS250, but can't talk much about it since nobody has driven one.
Honda makes probably the best 4-cylinder engines in the world. BUt they are peaky and generally low on torque, which are not ideal for driving in most of this country. I have a 2K Accord V6 and personally even that is gutless when it comes to torque. In normal driving, shifting at 3K RPM, you can feel the lack of torque. But it's still a overall great car.
Overall though, if the IS250 weren't on the market and it was down to the TSX vs. BMW 325i for similar bucks, I would choose the 325i. That's just my choice. Well, actually I would probably shell out a few more grand and buy a TL.
How about a 530i sport with manual? You're seriously telling me you can compare a Honda 4-cylinder in torque to a BMW straight 6? Come on, get real. All you have to do is look at the torque numbers and the torque curves.
ANd driving a heavy 530i with manual and shifting at about 3KRPM provides way more forward thrust than driving a TSX and doing the same.
"unless you keep the revs high every car around you will pass you at a stoplight."
I repeat, get of the weed. Get off the weed!
In normal day to day driving, my tranny shifts at about 3K away from stoplights. I see everybody going at about the same rate.
Well as far as interiors go I think its a matter of what you like. While I think Lexus interiors are probably better made than Acuras, I think Acuras look more youthful overall and less traditional/boring than Lexus, imo. The TL has a "better" interior to me than a ES or current IS. The new IS I don't know yet because I haven't sat in one.
The current IS just never clicked as a "Lexus" for several reasons, again imo.
They car was too small and sporty for the average Lexus buyer. The interior was just totally off to put it mildly, especially with the ES330 sitting next to it. They've fixed this just like I thought they would on the new IS. Those pedals in the current IS couldn't make up for the parts that you actually see most of the time.
"I just hope it gets better mpg than the IS300. That car was thirsty."
The IS250 has been pegged at high 20s MPG combined and the IS350 about the same, probably one or two ticks lower. The new GS300 has improved greatly in terms of MPG. the old GS300 was 18/25, the new one improved to 22/30, that means the IS250 from I believe the same engine family should produce even a bit better MPG figures than 22/30.
"Yeah.. but it isn't the same Accord that they sell in the USA... Smaller in every way... It is a JDM/Euro Accord..Just like the IS300 is a Toyota Alteeza...."
The current TSX is based on a global Honda platform that is shared among the TSX, Accord and TL among others. This is from an article in Ward's Auto World dated 11/1/04.
Yes, the current IS 300 is a Toyota Altezza. But this thread is about the 2006 IS 250/350, which has nothing to do with the Altezza anymore and was designed from the start as a Lexus.
"Convertible and coupe versions of Lexus' sportiest car, the IS 300 sedan, are due as 2006 models,..."
I have this article too, and showed it to a Lexus regional manager. He said the convertible was a go, but that they consider it a coupe as well since it will have a retracting hardtop. Somewhat related, I have the flier from the auto show on the LF-C, and it specifically says the car is both a convertible and a coupe. So, they obviously consider retracting hardtops both a convertible and a coupe. Now, there may very well be a separate coupe, but we'll just have to wait and see I guess.
When did I write that a 3.0 inline 6 performs like a honda 4? I wrote that BMW's vaunted and highly overrated inline 6s are gutless wonders that must be wound up like a Honda motor to motivate the car.
You see it differently. Not sure how you're driving a 3.0 with less power, pushing more mass and you find that engine propels the car nicely, but to each his own. My inline 6 is smooth but it's got zero gumption until the darn thing breaks 4k rpm. Before that I've had Ford 4 bangers that feel better off the line. Heck, my 2.0 in my Mazda is peppier off the line than my ZHP. If I shift the ZHP at 3k rpm I have people riding my bumper and cars zipping past me.
I wouldnt expect a coupe version of the IS. The SC coupe was replaced with the SC430, a folding hardtop. They will most likely do the same with the IS. It allows them to compete with a huge amount of cars, the A4 cabrio and upcoming coupe, the inevitable 330Ci and convertible, and even the SLK350, all with one model.
23 different body, engine and transmission combinations for only 100K in US sales... Even if you narrow it down to just drivetrain/transmission it is 9 different combinations..
So, Lexus can't "afford" to certify just four versions for 45K in sales?
It is a terrible marketing decision.. and I don't think the cost of certification has anything to do with it...
For those that don't like BMW references? Sorry, that is the competition for the IS...
I just can't get over the look of this new car, both inside and out. This has to be the best looking car I have ever seen. I've really fallen for the exterior! I'm a HUGE manual fan, right up there with most of you. My current IS is a manual and here in Canada any ways it wasn't that easy to find one when I was buying. I don't like autos, even in heavy traffic I enjoy shifting myself. Since my father took me behind the local shopping mall at the age of 16 in a manual Integra and showed me how it was done, that's the only tranny I have ever owned. My point here guys is this.... I love this new car. I have to have one! I don't think I want to lose power from what I have now. So the IS250 is going to be most likely out. The IS350 might have to be the way. But I'm a bit hopeful that this new paddle shifted 6 speed will be a hoot to drive still. I mean an auto you just stick in drive is one thing but this has shift-it-yourself steering wheel mounted shifters. If it shifts lightning quick and doesn't second guess what you want I think I might be in. I might own my first 'auto'. The thought of having a car that looks like the new IS with 300+ HP is way to good to pass up. Here in Canada a nicely loaded IS is about $47,000 CAN. If the new IS350 comes in $50,000 CAN or lower with the right equipment, I'm there (and when I say the right equipment I mean all the nice toys but no nav or laser cruise control for me thanks) That's my look at it anyways. I'm willing to try something new in order to enjoy this new benchmark.
Even 200hp in the IS250 is enough IMO. Strap that to the 6 spd manual and there's plenty of useable power for most people.
I do agree that a 350 with a manual would be an absolute hoot to drive, but even if the 250 is the only one available with the stick, it has quickly raced to the top of my shopping list. The 350/stick would be a bonus.
Comments
A LOT of people are gonna cross shop the TSX vs IS vs. C-class vs. A4 vs. Saab. That's the main reason we are getting the 2.5L engine. So that Lexus can hit a competitive price point. If this car was more about "enthusiasts", there wouldn't be a question about the manual 3.5L, it would be a given.
This car is gonna be like an SUV. It has high performance potential, but most of them will probably never see any actual high performance duty. And by high performance duty I'm not talking high speed runs down the interstate. My wifes Accord can cruise at triple digit speeds all day. Heck for that matter, so can my Civic Si.
BMW looks likely to retain the crown in perpetuity. Even with Bangle...
E90 3 has "break dry" as a standard feature for gods sake. I wonder if there's any hope in german reliability.
There's a link at the bottom of that story to another article on the IS250 that pins the output at 208hp.
none. what a waste of r&d and money. let me have the car for $200 cheaper and put normal brakes on it.
Wale, I would be very interested to know where to find this clarification from Lexus? As kyfdx pointed out indirectly :P, I guessed the original press release meant an SMG type transmission due to the identical wording used in Toyota's press about the MR2 transmission. The fact that Toyota messed this up is completely surprising to me. I am not used to such massive corporations revealing new information about unreleased models without examining every word with the attention to detail of an engineer moonlighting as a lawyer.
kyfdx and dewey, sorry about any misunderstanding, but I did say it was just my bet
Back to lurking, cybersol
As far as breaking down goes, if it won't get to 100K miles without failing, my (general) personal feeling is it doesn't belong in a modern car. OTOH, as I am and will be leasing for the foreseeable future, and like to turn my cars every 30-39 months, I don't really care if it makes it quite that far.
Just remember there's plenty of tech in Japanese cars too. The advantage there is usually that it's not gen1 stuff. Typically it's an idea that's been copied, or one-offed, and refined, so it may be somewhat longer lasting, but you won't get most of it as "first on the block".
---Insert typical "Japanese innovation" whining here! [-P ---
The more I read, the more it looks like a loaded A3 3.2 DSG for me. I'll wait until I can try all entries in the metal first of course, but this Lexus-conquest is not looking like a Lexus-retention right now...
Go to the home page of IS300.net. You can read the quote there if you like, rather than my lifted copy...
"Usually it just doesn't "happen" that technologies are similar."
Really?
What about all the carmakers that developed skid control systems? They all came out within a few years and it's not like a skid control system can be developed in six months.
Or we can use the example of adaptive cruise control systems. For example, MB came out with Radar, Toyota came out with Laser guided system. Similar systems but definately developed in different manners.
Point is different manufacturer's develop similar items all the time. It is not coincidence that it happens. They develop items based on customer feedback, etc. and most of the time, I bet you customers all over the world come up similar features that they want.
I will look for the article. I have to do some searching.
Remember also, that while article's clearly state that Nissan is *buying* the technology from Toyota, in Ford's case it said Ford was *licensing* the technology from Toyota.
Competing yes. COmpeting on price..you do not know that yet because IS prices haven't been released.
"You say TSX is just a dressed up Accord, well the IS250 is simply a 4 door Scion TC."
Huh. let's see the TSX is the same platform as the Accord sold in the US, just a shorter platform. Let's see the TSX is called the Accord in Europe. Let's see the IS250/350 is RWD, whereas the Scion TC is FWD. That means the 2 cars have 2 different platforms whereas the Accord/TSX do not.
yeah they compare, but which one do you have to drive like you stole it to get any amount of power?
Let's face it, the S2000 may be fast if you have the pedal floored, otherwise it's a dog. ANd yes, I've driven one. At part throttle it's a dog also. And don't tell me it's not the case, because any car(like the S2000) that lacks low end torque is going to be a dog! Meanwhile the Z4 has much more torque, a flatter torque curve, and has gobs of torque down low in the rev range, which means you don't have to drive it like you stole it.
End of story.
Did they not release that the IS250 will start just about right where the current IS300 is priced? again..they will compete based on price.
Huh. let's see the TSX is the same platform as the Accord sold in the US, just a shorter platform. Let's see the TSX is called the Accord in Europe. Let's see the IS250/350 is RWD, whereas the Scion TC is FWD. That means the 2 cars have 2 different platforms whereas the Accord/TSX do not.
The TSX is NOT on the same platform as the US Accord....again, get your facts straight.
And who was calling the TSX engine "a tiny 4 banger". Actually the TSX engine is quite large for a 4 cylinder. The largest mass market 4 cylinder engine is 2.5 liters. A 1.8 Liter I4 would be an example of a "tiny 4 banger".
Sorry don't mean to dwell on the TSX, just please get your facts straight.
2.4L 4-cylinder. I see just about every 4-cylinder as tiny. and well, a 6-cylinder is a 6-cylinder. I would much prefer a 6 over a 4. A 6 generally provides more torque at a more useable RPM, a better torque curve, and better refinement.
You can try to make the 4-banger in your TSX seem better than a 6-cylinder, but I'll take the 6-cylinder in the IS250, the 6 in the BMW 325, the 6 in the MB C-class, and the 6 in the Audi over the TSX's 4 any day of the week. That doesn't mean the TSX has a bad engine. It's a great engine, just IMO, not really comparable to the V6s offered in the price range by the competition.
I've driven a 6-speed TSX, so don't think you can change my mind. At part throttle, it was a slug around town. But it's great if you drive like Mario ANdretti all day long.
If Toyota didn't say anything, and Ford was talking to Honda, and Dodge caught and ear infection.... then why are we talking about it???kinda like who's on first, who's on second???
Your confusing the issue, with the cruise control systems, in the instances as you explained, they're going for the same net result, but getting there a different way. In the instance of Toyota and Ford, the technology was so similar, that one could be held liable. That does not happen by accident. That's more in line with information leaking then coincidence.
In short Ford is required to licence a number of Toyota patents because Ford's technology is similar to Toyota's. Ford has not received Toyota technical assistance in developing the technology. Ford has however contracted Aisin AW, a Japanese auto component manufacturer part-owned by Toyota, to supply the hybrid systems. Odly, Aisin does not provide Toyota with hybrid components. Also the system Toyota and Ford have developed differs from the Prius' system.
The bottom line is that both Toyota and Ford have denied that Ford bought the technology from Toyota. Ford does build on the ideas Toyota patented. Hope this helps.
When comparing 4 cylinder engines to ALL engines, then yes, they are tiny. When comparing just 4 cylinder engines, there are small 4s and big 4s. Just as a 2.5 V6 is a small V6, and a 4.0 is a large V6. I'm not saying this 2.4 I4 is better than the V6/I6 you mentioned, because I'm not familiar with them all. I'm just trying to ensure everyone here is getting the accurate facts.
Again regarding FWD vs RWD, and 4 cylinder vs 6 cylinder; one is not better than the other. It's simply the driver's choice and what type of feel that driver prefers. obviously you prefer a car with low end torque, but in turn you sacrifice the high end horsepower. Generally, a V6 maxes out at 6000 rpm...whereas an I4 is making peak horsepower just beyond that range. Personally, I don't like engine's that fall asleep half way through the power band...that's partly why I chose TSX. With new technologies, and iVTEC (or whatever you may call it) on intake and exhaust, this helps both low end torque as well as high rpm hp...that's what I'm hoping for the IS250/350.
To go back to a previous point, the Z4 may have more torque than the S2000, and shoot off the line quicker, but the S2000 will pass the Z4 once the rpm's build. And this is not just 0-60...if you don't like the fact that the S2000 is a slug off the line, then don't buy it. But that doesn't mean it's a bad engine. It's just not your preference.
Toyota still offers a VVTi 2.7L in the new Tacoma, producing 164 hp at 5200 RPM and 183 foot-pounds of twist at 3800 RPM. Thats the most torque from any normally aspirated 4 cylinder I can think of, FWIW.
~alpha
Sorry for the digression.
~alpha
I'm not in the auto industry, but I buy magazine ads for my business quite often. The cost of a full page in a trade magazine typically run $5000. The cost for a private importer importing a single vehicle runs to the tune of $100,000 or more. For a manufacturer planning on bringing thousands of copies, it's safe to assume that it would cost millions if not tens of millions. The projected total annual sales of IS line is 45k units; of which, if E46 325i vs. 330i is any indication, about 15% consists of the bigger engine, so roughly 7500 units will be IS350. Of that if 10% choose manual, the grand total of manual IS350 in a year would be 750 units. Even if certification only costs $3 million (a gross underestimation, IMHO), that's $4000 per vehicle. Now, how many of people in the $30-40k price market are willing to pony up $4000 for the priviledge of a stick&tri-ped manual? $4000 for an SMG on an M3 perhaps, but definitely not a conventional manual on an entry-luxury sport sedan. That means, if Lexus wants to bring in the IS350 manual, they'd have to slip the bill under to buyers of IS350 automatic and IS250's. Would not be a smart move if they want to drum up sales for the first year by holding down the prices to a target.
However, how anyone compares a 4-banger car against a 6-cylinder car is beyond me. Is it bcos they are priced same ? Isn't it pitiful enough that a entry-lux car has a 4-cylinder engine ? For what purpose is Honda selling the TSX at close to $30K ? That is a rip-off, imo. I'd rather get an Accord EX-V6 at about same price, which is a much better deal, imo.
Will I consider an IS250 with a hand shaker? Nope, I want more juice. Will I consider an IS350 with a slush box? Nope, I want the aforementioned hand shaker. Sorry Lexus, I won't even bother stopping in at a showroom to have a look-see.
Best Regards,
Shipo
- patent infringement of hybrid technology
- Z4 torque
- BMW will always keep the crown
Questions:
Anyone have any ideas about the "goodness" of the new suspension on the IS250/350?
When Lexus says the body will be 3" longer/wider/taller (rough measurement - I don't remember the exact) - is this roughly the same interior space (estimated) of the civic, accord, TL or what other car is analogous?
What is VVTi (what are the benefits)? Direct injection (merits/motoring goodness)?
Cheers
Um, have you driven a BMW 3.0? The engines are gutless unless you push them hard and keep them over 4k. sorry, i own a bmw with that engine and it's got anything but torque. unless you keep the revs high every car around you will pass you at a stoplight. it's just like a honda motor, imho. only built into an unreliable car.
The TSX sells at $28k with the 4 cylinder because it would sell at over $30k with the V6. These cars have much more to like than just an engine.
I mean heck why complain about a $30k 4 cylinder when BMW etc sell $45k 6 cylinder ones. That should be pretty rediculous too. Ever price a loaded 6 cylinder E-class?
I mean is a 2.5L 5 series is any better?
the 525 BMW is gutless and I dont think anyone in this forum would disagree!
BMW can sell 6 cyl. at hefty prices because they can provide as much and more oomph than many 8 cylinders. In fact in some cases a 6 cyl. BMW can be considered a compelling bargain!
What about IS pricing? I guess we will have to wait before debating IS value.
Something caught my eye:
The base IS 250 will represent about 50 percent of the sedan's volume, which is projected to be about 45,000 units. U.S. sales of the previous IS 300 peaked at 22,486 units in 2001, then fell off sharply. In 2004, Lexus sold just 9,972 units here.
Hey, the 2.5 is supposed to be HALF of the car's production. Hmmm, what does that mean about the specious argument that the manual in the 350 would be too expensive to certify vis-a-vis the manual certification in the IS250? Both engines are brand new, so both would require the same certification effort. Huh, but still Lexus decided not to make the 350 manual. It keeps getting weirder. http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=52376
But wait, it gets stranger... The IS 250 awd will represent about 30 percent of total IS sales and will be offered only with an automatic transmission.
So only 70% of the IS250s will be rwd?! Lets be generous and make 20% manual. That's 3150 IS250s with manuals! 22500 X .70 X .20. Hmmm, on the cheap car. Yeah this all makes sense now...lol
As for 4 bangers. I'd take an Audi 2.0T ANYDAY over an e46 325i. Heck, the 1.8T is a better, more enjoyable engine, imho. It's light, power's immediate (not so of the anemic 2.5 inline 6), mileage is good and the engine is easily tuned to 200/250 lb-ft for $600. I had a Jetta 1.8t and while the car wasn't that great I couldn't fathom plunking down 30k for a 325i that had less pull than my jetta. sort of like the dilema current IS300 owners will face if they look at the IS250?
Anybody have any thoughts on the new Lexus IS250/350?
What about IS pricing? I guess we will have to wait before debating IS value
Lexus clearly stated the IS250 will start around the price of the current IS300. The press release shows a whole boat of options too. So figure 30k for the base IS300. Sport package, xenons and you're gonna be up round 32k I'd expect. Lots of other options but it's all silly stuff like navi, radar cruise, back up camera, heated seats, etc.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050323c
The 6 cylinder IS250 will have to be a revver too to get at it's power. There's not much displacement for low rev power. Might as well have a 4 cylinder and save some weight. I just hope it gets better mpg than the IS300. That car was thirsty.
And that gutless 525 costs $42k base with "leatherette" upholstery.
Also, the IS250 does have a fairly high power peak, (if overseas versions are indicative) around 6400 RPM.
But, peak torque (expected to be just ONE foot pound short of the half-liter larger BMW 325i's 3.0L unit) comes at a usable 3800 RPM, which, without driving the car, would seem to speak to the flexibility and around-town friendliness of this powerplant, especially with the manual.
~alpha
http://www2.autospies.com/article/i...?articleId=4206
tankertoad - 3/26/2005 1:40:49 PM
Title: I drove it last week
Comment: Last week, I was part of a market research group and had an opportunity to drive the "prototype" IS 350 against a 330 non sport (and static expamples of a TL and G35 sedan). Firstly, let me say that I mentioned to them that I handicapped the bimmer as they were having me compare a "future" car with a seven year old design. Now if they had an e90...
The Lexus is a big jump from the current model in every way. It's aggressively designed (the back flanks are too high though) with an exhaust on each end. The interior is comfy and sporty with nice instrumentation, a start button and paddle shifting (the belt line was too high for my liking).
The engine ROCKS! 300 HP V6 that was as smooth as an I6. The engine note and exhaust were too muted for my tastes but the car was Lexus quiet. The acceleration and responsiveness of the engine was very impressive and the 330 was noticably slower (but not slow). Wonderful powerplant. The cornering on 18" S0-3s was also very strong. The brakes were overboosted/overmodulated but we were told it's only a prototype hand built. The turning radius was tiny and the ride soaked up bumps just like my bimmer.
All that being said, I still preferred the 330 (barely). The value for money goes all to Lexus and the performance was intoxicating (for a 40K sedan) but nobody can make a car that connects with a driver like BMW. Lexus does what they always do - they copy the best and do it better. Objectively, the IS is a better car; subjectively I don't think so. Look the the IS 350 to be more powerful and better optioned than an e90 for about 1-2K less dinero. It won't steal hardcore bimmerfans or the status buyers, but it will make inroads into the remainder of BMW's buying constituency.
BTW, the IS 250 will have 200 HP - I think they'll sell more of the 350s. Forget Audi, Lexus is the new sparring partner for the 3 series.
If the IS250 starts below 30K is it not worthy of luxury brand label? They're sports sedans.
M
bmw has become the benchmark for connecting drivers to the road and the service dept at the same time.
look at the new IS. it will hands down be able to do everything you ask of it. it will be able to outrun a 330i, match it in braking and handling. it will be quiet as a mouse inside as the silky smooth V6 catapults you right past every A4 and 330i out there. the IS250's value will be hard for any overpriced 325i to match. i mean these 184hp 325i's can go for 36K how the heck do you think you are going to get a 200hp one for any less??? well, stripped down to nothing you can get a good bimmer for 32K. goodness.
the mags will never ever be able to rip on the interior as cheap looking either. i mean, unless everyone is on drugs only the most biased folks like car and driver will even think about crowning the 330i as king (and they will).
i mean what more can anyone say about the IS other than the fact that it will set the roads on fire and the 3 series will continue to catch on fire. pretty simple.
i agree that a sports sedan doesn't need the lexus like interior but to take down a bmw in the comparisons you do need it. just look at what happened with the current IS300?? i love the interior but the snobs that compare these cars couldn't get by it. too cheap for a lexus. how can you not at least like the drilled aluminum pedals?? well now they have almost nothing to say imo. nothing. except that they want a manual 350 to go head to head with a 330i.
Where do you get the idea I think the S2000 or TSX is a bad car or have bad engines? I think both are great cars, but I just don't see the TSX as being the car a BMW 325i is. And probably IS250, but can't talk much about it since nobody has driven one.
Honda makes probably the best 4-cylinder engines in the world. BUt they are peaky and generally low on torque, which are not ideal for driving in most of this country. I have a 2K Accord V6 and personally even that is gutless when it comes to torque. In normal driving, shifting at 3K RPM, you can feel the lack of torque. But it's still a overall great car.
Overall though, if the IS250 weren't on the market and it was down to the TSX vs. BMW 325i for similar bucks, I would choose the 325i. That's just my choice. Well, actually I would probably shell out a few more grand and buy a TL.
How about a 530i sport with manual? You're seriously telling me you can compare a Honda 4-cylinder in torque to a BMW straight 6? Come on, get real. All you have to do is look at the torque numbers and the torque curves.
ANd driving a heavy 530i with manual and shifting at about 3KRPM provides way more forward thrust than driving a TSX and doing the same.
"unless you keep the revs high every car around you will pass you at a stoplight."
I repeat, get of the weed. Get off the weed!
In normal day to day driving, my tranny shifts at about 3K away from stoplights. I see everybody going at about the same rate.
The current IS just never clicked as a "Lexus" for several reasons, again imo.
They car was too small and sporty for the average Lexus buyer. The interior was just totally off to put it mildly, especially with the ES330 sitting next to it. They've fixed this just like I thought they would on the new IS. Those pedals in the current IS couldn't make up for the parts that you actually see most of the time.
M
The IS250 has been pegged at high 20s MPG combined and the IS350 about the same, probably one or two ticks lower. The new GS300 has improved greatly in terms of MPG. the old GS300 was 18/25, the new one improved to 22/30, that means the IS250 from I believe the same engine family should produce even a bit better MPG figures than 22/30.
The current TSX is based on a global Honda platform that is shared among the TSX, Accord and TL among others. This is from an article in Ward's Auto World dated 11/1/04.
Yes, the current IS 300 is a Toyota Altezza. But this thread is about the 2006 IS 250/350, which has nothing to do with the Altezza anymore and was designed from the start as a Lexus.
I have this article too, and showed it to a Lexus regional manager. He said the convertible was a go, but that they consider it a coupe as well since it will have a retracting hardtop. Somewhat related, I have the flier from the auto show on the LF-C, and it specifically says the car is both a convertible and a coupe. So, they obviously consider retracting hardtops both a convertible and a coupe. Now, there may very well be a separate coupe, but we'll just have to wait and see I guess.
You see it differently. Not sure how you're driving a 3.0 with less power, pushing more mass and you find that engine propels the car nicely, but to each his own. My inline 6 is smooth but it's got zero gumption until the darn thing breaks 4k rpm. Before that I've had Ford 4 bangers that feel better off the line. Heck, my 2.0 in my Mazda is peppier off the line than my ZHP. If I shift the ZHP at 3k rpm I have people riding my bumper and cars zipping past me.
You think it will cost $3 million extra to certify a manual transmission IS350?
How do you figure that? If that were the case, then BMW would sell only an automatic 330i sedan, and nothing else....
Instead,
325i manual
325i Steptronic
325Ci manual
325Ci Steptronic
325Cic manual
325Cic Steptronic
325Xi manual
325Xi Steptronic
330i manual
330i SMG
330i Steptronic
330Ci manual
330Ci SMG
330Ci Steptronic
330Cic manual
330Cic SMG
330Cic Steptronic
330xi manual
330xi Steptronic
Oh yeah,
325iT manual
325iT Steptronic
325XiT manual
325XiT Steptronic
23 different body, engine and transmission combinations for only 100K in US sales... Even if you narrow it down to just drivetrain/transmission it is 9 different combinations..
So, Lexus can't "afford" to certify just four versions for 45K in sales?
It is a terrible marketing decision.. and I don't think the cost of certification has anything to do with it...
For those that don't like BMW references? Sorry, that is the competition for the IS...
regards,
kyfdx
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I'm a HUGE manual fan, right up there with most of you. My current IS is a manual and here in Canada any ways it wasn't that easy to find one when I was buying. I don't like autos, even in heavy traffic I enjoy shifting myself. Since my father took me behind the local shopping mall at the age of 16 in a manual Integra and showed me how it was done, that's the only tranny I have ever owned.
My point here guys is this....
I love this new car. I have to have one! I don't think I want to lose power from what I have now. So the IS250 is going to be most likely out. The IS350 might have to be the way. But I'm a bit hopeful that this new paddle shifted 6 speed will be a hoot to drive still. I mean an auto you just stick in drive is one thing but this has shift-it-yourself steering wheel mounted shifters. If it shifts lightning quick and doesn't second guess what you want I think I might be in. I might own my first 'auto'.
The thought of having a car that looks like the new IS with 300+ HP is way to good to pass up.
Here in Canada a nicely loaded IS is about $47,000 CAN. If the new IS350 comes in $50,000 CAN or lower with the right equipment, I'm there (and when I say the right equipment I mean all the nice toys but no nav or laser cruise control for me thanks)
That's my look at it anyways. I'm willing to try something new in order to enjoy this new benchmark.
I do agree that a 350 with a manual would be an absolute hoot to drive, but even if the 250 is the only one available with the stick, it has quickly raced to the top of my shopping list. The 350/stick would be a bonus.