"When the 2006 BMW 3-Series goes on sale in May, two sedan models will be initially offered, both equipped with a new 3.0-liter, dual overhead cam, inline six-cylinder engine"
and..The TSX has to really rev for those 200hp. We are talking another 15hp out of 100cc. Like I said, i will be very impressed.
And I will also have to notice the peak at 6500 rpm. That was what I was saying. A 215hp 2.5L will be a screamer. I know it CAN be done, Honda got 240hp out of 2.0L, but keeping the power usable on a day to day basis will be the feat.
At 2-3hrs per trip, 60-90 dealership hours, or some $2000 labor cost before any capital amortization.
What? You're talking 25 minutes to 30 minutes on a lot per car. Max. If they have multiple cars you can do 3 in under an hour easily.
If I test drove 3 cars, how in the hell would I know I found the car that suits me?
In 2003 I tested... Ford Mustang GT manual VW Jetta GLI manual VW Jetta 1.8T GLS manual VW Passat 1.8T manual Audi A4 1.8T manual Audi A4 3.0 auto BMW 325i manual 325i step 330i step 330ci manual 330i manual 330i ZHP manual G35 auto G35 manual G35 coupe auto G35 coupe manual Nissan Altima 3.5 manual Nissan Maxima 3.5 manual Subaru WRX manual MB C auto (couldn't find a manual and can't recall the engine but it was a 3 something) Mazda Miata manual Mazda 6 manual Mazda 6 auto Honda Accord coupe EX 3.0 manual Honda Accord coupe EX 3.0 auto Lexus IS300 manual Jaguar X-type 3.0 auto
But I looked for a new car for probably 3 months. And some of the cars I drove more than once.
Like I said, it's your time and your money. For me, buying a car is not a decision on whether to launch a ICBN attack on Russia. There is no way an average buyer would test drive that many cars before buying one. Somehow, I found the cars that suited me after 3-4 test drives, instead of 34 ;-) Every 3 years, I get a new one, which is probably better than anything on the market 3 years prior anyway. Granted, if it were entirely up to me, I would probably test drive a couple more, but my wife would kill me if we spent more time on choosing cars. Car mfrs and dealers are in the business of selling cars not giving rides. Sometimes I wonder if dealerships should be turned into repair shops and rental centers, and all purchase to be done through direct delivery; that way, people can rent new cars overnight and find out whether they like the vehicles or not, and vehicle prices can be lower because the test-driving process will be self-financing.
When i help others buy (I've helped many friends and family), I get them out there and into a variety of things. I feel one needs to really experience the cars to know what's important and not important. On paper a Subaru GT is a great car, but from my experience driving one I'd rather go back to VW and put up with nightmare service and poor reliability. It was the seat time that determined that. And even though people say they don't care, when it gets down to brass tacks, you put them in the seat of 6 different cars in a day and they will walk away with a favorite of that group.
Everybody I help always claims in the end they feel they got exactly the car they wanted. That's my goal when I help them.
But I do love your rental idea.
Oh and I forgot to include the Acura TSX manual on my test drive list! LOL
Wouldn't it be easier to just sell cars, get a demo, really experience the cars without being held to owning one and not have a note???
You could work 3 months for VW, with that experience,.....move to Audi.....then secure employment with a BMW dealer....turn tail and go to Infiniti, walk up hill in the snow both ways and Zoom Zoom...well you get the point!!!
Don't we wish car shows did go like I wrote? I figured it was close enough to April Fool's day to start that way.
Really it was unrewarding to go to the show, and I always forget that - can't sit in the car, no real additional news, no $2000 off coupons
I did point out all the AWD cars to my wife. Had a brief look at a $130K Porsche, but she decided no... Still have a real shot at the IS, but need to wait and see, and drive one.
The Carrera 4S and Turbo are AWD because of the 911s tendancy for tail wagging thanks to a rear weight bias. They are not cars you'd want in snow or anything like that, AWD or not.
Surely Lexus will soon introduce a Sportcross version of the new IS, and by looking at the reather "controversial" rear-end styling of the new IS, I would be quite interested to see how they will manage to stretch that design over a new liftgate... And perhaps Lexus will create a much more modified IS as the new Sportcross model as opposed to the simple mod from the previous generation IS. Maybe offer a few unique options for the Sportcross such as the Hill-Start Assist Control/Downhill Assist Control combo or maybe even the Kinetic Suspension system to greatly enhance the wagon's capabilities than the sedan. Will there even be an IS convertible in the near future?
On another note, I wonder why the IS 350 does NOT offer AWD. The excuse Lexus gave for the new GS 430 was that the AWD system cannot handle the great amounts of torque from the V8. And are they going to use that excuse again? I certainly hope not. Simply because I can bet that the lb-ft of torque from the new 3.5 V6 is definitely going to be less than the hp rating (judging in part by the new Avalon's differently configured [FWD vs RWD] , but identically sized V6). I'm sure Lexus does have the technology to create an AWD system capable of the new IS 350, but why it hasn't been mentioned is a mystery to me...
1. The New IS, as beautiful as it is, is starting to fade from my consciousness. My posts will fade from here altogether soon. When I made this highly successful forum, I was HOPING this car would turn into my wunderlust, but I, and most enthusiast have been disappointed by Lexus. Again.
2. Let's try to get SOME facts into this forum before I go. According to R&T, in a 2000 issue, the BMW 3-series sells between 30-40% MANUAL TRANNYS! NOT 10-15%!
3. Lexus wouldn't sell that many. But considering they are , BY FAR, the most cash-rich automaker, the fact that BMW can AFFORD to certify drivetrains and Toyota can't is lost on me. Not buying what you're selling.
4. Let's say, for sake of argument, Lexus sells 15% MT IS250 in 2006. That's approximately half the BMW rate, but due to lack of MT options in the Lexus lineup, they can get 15% consistently.
15% of 22,500 (50% of 45k, total projected IS sales volume, no MT on AWD or 350). That's almost 3500 sales. Ok
Lexus loses ALL MT buyers in the 350 class to G35, TL, A4, and 3-series.
Lexus says they will only sell 20% IS350? 20% of 45k is 9k?
According to 2005 YTD, that matches the sales 330i sales! Might they SURPASS 330i with a MT?
If they offered a stick in the 350, would that attract more interest in the 350 from non-Lexus buyers? From IS250 intenders? Would the 350 rise from 20%?
HALF of Chrysler 300C buyers buy the Limited! That's almost 60k a year!!
This is all marketing (USUALLY a Lexus strong point!).
Sell the stick, new sexy skin, new sexy interior, a price under $35k, and a swift 0-60 time, you will get great traffic to a corner of the Lexus store that is currently baron.
I don't buy cars for speed, but for control.
No stick means I can get NEITHER.
No fun = no traffic.
Does anyone need to see Exhibit A?
Hoping a paddle-shift will work vs. KNOWING a MT awaits me = Test drive.
How many times do people walk in to a test a Lexus and walk out without one? Hint: Fewer than anyone else!
I wouldn't be so hurt, if Lexus tried to make a car fun, from the start, just once! They are SO CLOSE. It's sad.
A V6 with 180 lb.ft of torque, IN THIS DAY AND AGE, is a sorry V6. Nissan 4-bangers are hotter! WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS ENGINE?
Either come to play, or build another mini-LS, or sissified GS. Don't waste my time.
I've been to several websites to see as much pictures and info on the new IS350 as possible. Here is my take on it. I like the exterior and interior styling (much better than the current model). Until I actually drive one, all this hoopla is just that--hoopla.
My wife and I bought two BMW's a month apart. She bought a 2000 328Ci (2.8 liter) at the end of December 1999, and I bought a 2000 323Ci (2.5 liter) at the end of January 2000. We still have her 328Ci, but I sold the 323Ci more than two years ago. Both have had numerous problems both during and after the warranty period. I don't know if this was due to it being the first coupe model year. I also had a 1994 525i that had numerous problems. We both love the way the cars drove and look (the 2.5 liter engine is underpower and the 2.8 liter is ok), but those will be our last BMW's due to poor quality and poor dealership service.
We will trade in hers sometime next year before it passes 100,000 miles. I want her to get the new IS350 convertible/coupe. I hope it arrives here around March 2006. She likes the Lexus brand very much for two reasons: quality and service. Our families and friends have had many Lexuses and love the quality and service. Nobody wants to pay good money for cars that are in the shop every few months and be treated poorly by what is suppose to be a luxury car dealership. Does anybody know when the convertible/coupe will be out and at what price range? ">
Not again. Certification cost is not zero. Obviously, Lexus does not think the cost of certification can be paid for by the profit on the 900 expected sales. So that means raising price on all the other IS350's (especially since the folks who test drive dozens of cars are not likely to pony up extra for manual tranny when there are "free" manual down the road at other mfrs; can you imagine the bitching and whining if Lexus decided to offer manual as a $4k option on the IS350? Although just to be evil, Lexus should offer manual "pre-release" cars to the magazine reviewers to test out in Euopre or something just to shut them up; the $4k price tag will ensure that nobody in the US ever will order the car as manual hence no production needs to start and no real certification required.). . . Having a higher price would hurt all IS350 sales. It's as simple as that. 545i 6-speed is in the $60k price range. Obviously it's a lot easier to hide a, let's say, $4000 per vehicle certification amortization in that bill than in a $40k bill.
Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. Toyota, one mintue has all this money and what not, yet its too costly for them to certify a particular model that might enable them to sell more than their projections. What happened to all that Toyota will take a loss of profit to gain market share initially like back in the days of the first LS400?
Excuses. Everyone else does it. Lexus should do it too.
Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me. Toyota, one mintue has all this money and what not, yet its too costly for them to certify a particular model that might enable them to sell more than their projections. What happened to all that Toyota will take a loss of profit to gain market share initially like back in the days of the first LS400?
Toyota/Lexus did not get to its current cash position by wasting money; nor should it start now. I think you have the history wrong. LS400 was a money maker from the very beginning. It was initially priced to compete with the likes of Caddy and Lincoln, but the fact that it took Mercedes' market share made the success all the sweeter. There never was an issue of take a loss of profit to gain market share. Toyota/Lexus (as well as Honda) is known for delivering good solid products that makes financial sense both for the consumer and for the company; if it means focusing engineering resource on a few model variants, so be it. The Germans and domestic mfrs are known for churning out gazillions of variants, none of which is properly debugged before being foistered on the consumers.
On another note, I wonder why the IS 350 does NOT offer AWD.
They may decide to drop the "450" combo (3.5 ICE driving the rears and electrical motors driving the fronts) currently experimenting on GS into IS at some point in the future instead of working out any purely mechanical AWD system. In the not too distant future, hybrid may well be a less expensive way to implement AWD, both in terms of fuel cost and manufacturing expense since hybrid may become as common as electronic fuel injection today.
Why are you such an apologist? I can't comprehend being so behind a company's decisions. It's flat out strange to me that you bring up toyota's finances and status as if these things are materially important to consumers. we want what we want...no excuses.
people hated the 7's styling (as if that thing ever was attractive). bmw put its tail between its legs and "fixed" the issue. infiniti buyers and non-buyers griped about the interiors on g35s...nissan blinked and finally upgraded the interior.
we're the consumer, we're always right. if we say build it with a common 6 speed, then darnit, do it. don't come back at us with some corporate, apologist, empty junk pr message. sheesh, it's like having a conversation with a a vp at a big company,,," well you must understand that..." Uh, nope. Not our problem, just make us happy.
and what actually gets bought are, unfortunately, not always the same thing. And even if the core group of radicals does go out and buy the stick, will it be enough sales?
I suppose you can look at the sales figures on the current model to estimate %. Only problem is, if they don't make enough to have stock on hand, they may sell less than they could. Not everyone wants to wait 3 months for a special order.
Anyway, it is good that the are making the 250 6 speed. Should be plenty of juice for me, and maybe even decent mileage.
one other thing to keep in mind. If you certify a drivetrain, you can carry the cert over to other models as long as they are within some specified weight differential. There's a good chance that the stick combo certified for the 3 series might cover the X3, 5 series, Z4, etc. If that's the case, there is little exposure to bringing it over.
So, if the GS had the 3.5/6 speed combo already, they could probably drop it right into the IS. Obviously Lexus either doesn't think that enough 3/5 buyers would want the stick (or that the car "needs" it), or that the stick buyers will be happy enough with the 2.5, but for whatever reason, they set it up that way.
You, the consumer may not always be right (you can't be everything to everyone). If individuals don't like the new IS, shop elsewhere. Buy what ever suits your desires and/or needs. I, for one, couldn't care less if the IS has a "stick". Maybe, Toyota is trying to appeal to me with the introduction of the new IS. I'll certainly give it a good look when it comes out. The last model did not appeal to me (a consumer) one bit. I understand that many posters on this site are disappointed not having the stick available. However, the percentage of individuals posting on this site is minimal compared to the potential buyers out there. Very few will refer to this site before purchasing. They will decide for themselves. If it looks as good in person and suits my needs (I don't need a stick) then it will make me very happy. Oh... and by the way, Toyota (the richest and most revered car company in the world) didn't get rich by making many bad decisions. Time will tell with this one.
Why are you such an apologist? I can't comprehend being so behind a company's decisions.
No, I'm not. $40k is too much for IS350 when a G35X can be had for under $30k; I said that dozens of posts back.
It's flat out strange to me that you bring up toyota's finances and status as if these things are materially important to consumers. we want what we want...no excuses.
I was not the one who brought up Toyota's finances or status. IIRC, you brought that up in asking why Toyota can't spend some of its horde of cash giving you money losing cars that you want.
The rational behind my argument is quite simple: I want good solid Lexus at reasonably low price. All the add-on options that I don't want and can not pay for themselves in the market place will inevitably add to the cost of my future purchase. That's what I do not want; I'm not interested in subsidizing someone else' car or "passion." It's no different from bimmer fans [non-permissible content removed] about BMW wasting time, money and engineering resource on avant-garde styling and i-Drive, neither of which is BMW's core competence.
Maybe, Toyota is trying to appeal to me with the introduction of the new IS.
Exactly! If Toyota can keep the price on the IS350 automatic $500 lower than otherwise by not wasting money on an IS350 stick, I'm all for delaying the IS350 stick; if Toyota work out a couple more bugs on IS350 automatic by not diverting engineering resource to an IS350 stick, I'm all for delaying the IS350 stick. The existence of a manual IS350 means absolutely zilch to me, or to the remaining 90% of car buyers. Price and reliability however are big deals.
But price isn't going to be cheap - at minimum that car's gonna start at 33k. I think we'd all be shocked if the jump from 250 to 350 is only 3k. But to be generous to Lexus, we'll say 33k. That's stripped. It's still a good 2-3k more than a comparably equipped G35. Shrug.
Get over it! The IS350 won't have a manual to start. Move on, buy a different car.... just get over it man. Or at the very least wait to try the new paddle-shift tranny they made, before you rip it apart. Who knows, C&D and the others might actually come out in favour of it. Toyota has the money, I'm placing my bet on this car cleaning up and the tranny making a few old die-hard manual driver's think twice about sticking with a clutch. Myself included!
I'm thinking along the lines of $26k for a stripped IS250, therefore $30k for a stripped IS350, plus $4-5k goodies to pick and choose from. All eventual market-clearing prices in the second model year or so. G35x at a few cents less than $30k is market clearing price for the 2nd year (of the X model, so perhaps fourth year for the G35) not the first year MSRP. A loaded TL is currently clearing at $30k or so.
Since when can a G35x be had for under $30K? Last time I checked a stripper is like $32 or 33.
www.quirkcars.com is the website of one of my local Infiniti dealers. Check out their specials section. The last time I checked, they are willing to sell the cars that they advertise, with a $300 doc fee, so the total comes to just a smidge below $30k despite their $29,600k ad. It comes with automatic, heated leather seats, xeon lights, CD changer. Not fully loaded, but not a stripper either.
"I was HOPING this car would turn into my wunderlust, but I, and most enthusiast have been disappointed by Lexus. Again."
According to your post, you are in a position to speak for "most enthusiasts".... I am an enthusiast (very enthusiastic about my RX-8 for MT/sports car driving/handling). I haven't, and would not, consider buying a Lexus IS with a MT (and I did not consider it when buying my '03 TL, my sedan for commuting/distance driving).
I think you, and others, have dragged this forum through long, tedious MT discussions - if the IS fails your checklist of features, you probably should be checking out the other 2 dozen car choices that meet them... You said you are fading away from the IS forum....don't let the door hit you, etc.
Lexus clearly stated the IS250 will start at the about the same price as the IS300. In other words, approximately 30k
Have you watched the NYIAS intro of the IS250? Apparently not, or you wouldn't be writing numbers so clearly out of line.
$30k is MSRP. I was talking about market clearing price in the 2nd or third year (and clearly stated so in my last post). The current IS300 has MSRP of $29,735, and invoice of $26,165. So I'm right on the money if the car be had at a few hundred over invoice in the 2nd or 3rd year.
"I'm thinking along the lines of $26k for a stripped IS250, therefore $30k for a stripped IS350, plus $4-5k goodies to pick and choose from. All eventual market-clearing prices in the second model year or so. G35x at a few cents less than $30k is market clearing price for the 2nd year (of the X model, so perhaps fourth year for the G35) not the first year MSRP. A loaded TL is currently clearing at $30k or so."
Could you explain the term "market-clearing prices"? Is this a lower price to gain market share or because the initial "excitement" for the model has passed? I don't understand the term. Thanks
Could you explain the term "market-clearing prices"? Is this a lower price to gain market share or because the initial "excitement" for the model has passed? I don't understand the term. Thanks
"Market-clearing price" is a price point where steady streams of buyers and sellers can be maintained; a useful term in markets where Meaningless Supposed Retail Prices get bandied about a lot. Kinda like Edmund's TMV, but since TMV is Edmund's registered trade mark and they don't project such numbers into the future, so I had to borrow a term from the commodities market.
This car is NOT due out in dealerships until October, right ? So what the heck is all this hue and cry about MT or lack of MT or whatever ???? Enthusiasts have lots of choices in the market to buy. Please go ahead and buy what you want. Its your money anyway !
I am in the market to buy a car in the IS3 and BMW 3-series this fall. When the IS350 gets here I'll check it out. I'll also be checking out a 330i AT and MT. These two cars are the only ones that interest ME. And I will decide which best fits ME, and that's what gets my money.
I am not gonna wring my hands and complain till infinity about a lack of MT in the IS350 when the car won't be here for 6 months. And if the IS250/6MT is not to your performance level, don't forget the 325i has had a lower HP rating like for ever and continues to sell pretty well. Tells you its not just about HP rating afterall. Get an IS250/6MT and chirp the engine to get more performance out of it. I am sure you can up the HP with the right performance upgrades, and still come well under the IS350 price.
am not gonna wring my hands and complain till infinity about a lack of MT in the IS350 when the car won't be here for 6 months
No, instead I wrote a nicely worded letter to Lexus. I let them know there is a market for some of us who want to abandon BMW but are so far stuck with it. I essentially asked Lexus to help me get away from BMW.
. And if the IS250/6MT is not to your performance level, don't forget the 325i has had a lower HP rating like for ever and continues to sell pretty well.
God only knows how they sell the 325i.
Tells you its not just about HP rating afterall. Get an IS250/6MT and chirp the engine to get more performance out of it. I am sure you can up the HP with the right performance upgrades, and still come well under the IS350 price.
Modding is not at all attractive to me. It also negates warranties unless the mod is factory. I could have modded my old 1.8T with a chip but as soon as the car went in for service (a given with my VW), I'd run the risk of the dealer trying to negate my warranty. No thanks.
There is a very telling article in one of my recent C&Ds about how one should probably not use aftermarket performance mods. The author says in the majority of cases the mods are totally unreliable, even when done by professional tuners. He suggests that if you want a faster car, buy it from the factory.
"Toyota/Lexus did not get to its current cash position by wasting money; nor should it start now. I think you have the history wrong. LS400 was a money maker from the very beginning. It was initially priced to compete with the likes of Caddy and Lincoln, but the fact that it took Mercedes' market share made the success all the sweeter. There never was an issue of take a loss of profit to gain market share."
Well you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe that Toyota made money on a car like the first LS400 priced at 35K. An all new car with a dohc 32V V8 and rwd. I don't buy that. Anyway that doesn't matter now. I agree that Toyota makes wise business decisions, but this thing about certification is just and excuse. Other companies do it and they also make money. My point is that Toyota should spend some of this huge wad of cash and do the right thing if they want to truly take on BMW, which was their stated goal. I don't see how a mere option of having a stick on their premier IS model is going to be bad business decision when they have all the money in the world right now. They'd sell even more cars with the stick. This all all excuses for Toyota not wanting to be truly competitive.
You've got to spend money to make money. Thats business 101. Toyota spent HUGE amounts of cash developing HSD. They knew that Prius sales alone wouldnt make it back. I too have a very hard time believing that "certification costs" are the reason Toyota elected to not offer a manual on the IS350.
. . . but this thing about certification is just and excuse. Other companies do it and they also make money . . . They'd sell even more cars with the stick. This all all excuses for Toyota not wanting to be truly competitive.
Other companies may have different price premium, targetting a different sales growth. Lexus is expecting IS sales volume to go up by 100%. They have to deliver some serious value/price quotiant to achieve that kind of sales growth. It's entirely wise to keep cost down and keep engineering effort focused, at least for the first year. Selling a few more cars is not good enough when you are trying to carve out a value/price point for 100% growth. If the IS350 manual sales can not be expected to pay for itself, the company should not take on unnecessary risks.
Isn't that what BMW did with E36 M3 (not trying to certify the 320hp euro-spec engine)? and now doing again with not importing a truely 2.5 liter engine for E90 (potentially lighter and smoother with its smaller displacement)? Apparently even the highest margin BMW decided certifying cost can be too high for some product variants.
Comments
Also, not sure why that kind of power would surprise you?.. The TSX gets 200 HP out of just 2.4 litres...
regards,
kyfdx
EDIT: That website still shows the E46, not the new E90..
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Updated figures for the German model 3-series.
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http://www.autobytel.com/content/shared/articles/templates/index.cfm/article_page_order_in- t/6/article_id_int/371
"When the 2006 BMW 3-Series goes on sale in May, two sedan models will be initially offered, both equipped with a new 3.0-liter, dual overhead cam, inline six-cylinder engine"
and..The TSX has to really rev for those 200hp. We are talking another 15hp out of 100cc. Like I said, i will be very impressed.
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eta...And make it pass U.S. emmissions.
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What? You're talking 25 minutes to 30 minutes on a lot per car. Max. If they have multiple cars you can do 3 in under an hour easily.
If I test drove 3 cars, how in the hell would I know I found the car that suits me?
In 2003 I tested...
Ford Mustang GT manual
VW Jetta GLI manual
VW Jetta 1.8T GLS manual
VW Passat 1.8T manual
Audi A4 1.8T manual
Audi A4 3.0 auto
BMW 325i manual
325i step
330i step
330ci manual
330i manual
330i ZHP manual
G35 auto
G35 manual
G35 coupe auto
G35 coupe manual
Nissan Altima 3.5 manual
Nissan Maxima 3.5 manual
Subaru WRX manual
MB C auto (couldn't find a manual and can't recall the engine but it was a 3 something)
Mazda Miata manual
Mazda 6 manual
Mazda 6 auto
Honda Accord coupe EX 3.0 manual
Honda Accord coupe EX 3.0 auto
Lexus IS300 manual
Jaguar X-type 3.0 auto
But I looked for a new car for probably 3 months. And some of the cars I drove more than once.
When i help others buy (I've helped many friends and family), I get them out there and into a variety of things. I feel one needs to really experience the cars to know what's important and not important. On paper a Subaru GT is a great car, but from my experience driving one I'd rather go back to VW and put up with nightmare service and poor reliability. It was the seat time that determined that. And even though people say they don't care, when it gets down to brass tacks, you put them in the seat of 6 different cars in a day and they will walk away with a favorite of that group.
Everybody I help always claims in the end they feel they got exactly the car they wanted. That's my goal when I help them.
But I do love your rental idea.
Oh and I forgot to include the Acura TSX manual on my test drive list! LOL
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You could work 3 months for VW, with that experience,.....move to Audi.....then secure employment with a BMW dealer....turn tail and go to Infiniti, walk up hill in the snow both ways and Zoom Zoom...well you get the point!!!
Really it was unrewarding to go to the show, and I always forget that - can't sit in the car, no real additional news, no $2000 off coupons
I did point out all the AWD cars to my wife. Had a brief look at a $130K Porsche, but she decided no... Still have a real shot at the IS, but need to wait and see, and drive one.
Best Regards,
Shipo
And perhaps Lexus will create a much more modified IS as the new Sportcross model as opposed to the simple mod from the previous generation IS. Maybe offer a few unique options for the Sportcross such as the Hill-Start Assist Control/Downhill Assist Control combo or maybe even the Kinetic Suspension system to greatly enhance the wagon's capabilities than the sedan.
Will there even be an IS convertible in the near future?
On another note, I wonder why the IS 350 does NOT offer AWD. The excuse Lexus gave for the new GS 430 was that the AWD system cannot handle the great amounts of torque from the V8. And are they going to use that excuse again? I certainly hope not. Simply because I can bet that the lb-ft of torque from the new 3.5 V6 is definitely going to be less than the hp rating (judging in part by the new Avalon's differently configured [FWD vs RWD] , but identically sized V6). I'm sure Lexus does have the technology to create an AWD system capable of the new IS 350, but why it hasn't been mentioned is a mystery to me...
2. Let's try to get SOME facts into this forum before I go. According to R&T, in a 2000 issue, the BMW 3-series sells between 30-40% MANUAL TRANNYS! NOT 10-15%!
3. Lexus wouldn't sell that many. But considering they are , BY FAR, the most cash-rich automaker, the fact that BMW can AFFORD to certify drivetrains and Toyota can't is lost on me. Not buying what you're selling.
4. Let's say, for sake of argument, Lexus sells 15% MT IS250 in 2006. That's approximately half the BMW rate, but due to lack of MT options in the Lexus lineup, they can get 15% consistently.
15% of 22,500 (50% of 45k, total projected IS sales volume, no MT on AWD or 350). That's almost 3500 sales. Ok
Lexus loses ALL MT buyers in the 350 class to G35, TL, A4, and 3-series.
Lexus says they will only sell 20% IS350? 20% of 45k is 9k?
According to 2005 YTD, that matches the sales 330i sales! Might they SURPASS 330i with a MT?
If they offered a stick in the 350, would that attract more interest in the 350 from non-Lexus buyers? From IS250 intenders? Would the 350 rise from 20%?
HALF of Chrysler 300C buyers buy the Limited! That's almost 60k a year!!
This is all marketing (USUALLY a Lexus strong point!).
Sell the stick, new sexy skin, new sexy interior, a price under $35k, and a swift 0-60 time, you will get great traffic to a corner of the Lexus store that is currently baron.
I don't buy cars for speed, but for control.
No stick means I can get NEITHER.
No fun = no traffic.
Does anyone need to see Exhibit A?
Hoping a paddle-shift will work vs. KNOWING a MT awaits me = Test drive.
How many times do people walk in to a test a Lexus and walk out without one? Hint: Fewer than anyone else!
I wouldn't be so hurt, if Lexus tried to make a car fun, from the start, just once! They are SO CLOSE. It's sad.
A V6 with 180 lb.ft of torque, IN THIS DAY AND AGE, is a sorry V6. Nissan 4-bangers are hotter! WHAT IS THE POINT OF THIS ENGINE?
Either come to play, or build another mini-LS, or sissified GS. Don't waste my time.
If BMW will "certify" a 545i with a 6-speed......
DrFill
Didn't GM have a 24 hour test drive program a few years ago?
I guess it didn't go well.
M
My wife and I bought two BMW's a month apart. She bought a 2000 328Ci (2.8 liter) at the end of December 1999, and I bought a 2000 323Ci (2.5 liter) at the end of January 2000. We still have her 328Ci, but I sold the 323Ci more than two years ago. Both have had numerous problems both during and after the warranty period. I don't know if this was due to it being the first coupe model year. I also had a 1994 525i that had numerous problems. We both love the way the cars drove and look (the 2.5 liter engine is underpower and the 2.8 liter is ok), but those will be our last BMW's due to poor quality and poor dealership service.
We will trade in hers sometime next year before it passes 100,000 miles. I want her to get the new IS350 convertible/coupe. I hope it arrives here around March 2006. She likes the Lexus brand very much for two reasons: quality and service. Our families and friends have had many Lexuses and love the quality and service. Nobody wants to pay good money for cars that are in the shop every few months and be treated poorly by what is suppose to be a luxury car dealership. Does anybody know when the convertible/coupe will be out and at what price range? ">
Excuses. Everyone else does it. Lexus should do it too.
M
Toyota/Lexus did not get to its current cash position by wasting money; nor should it start now. I think you have the history wrong. LS400 was a money maker from the very beginning. It was initially priced to compete with the likes of Caddy and Lincoln, but the fact that it took Mercedes' market share made the success all the sweeter. There never was an issue of take a loss of profit to gain market share. Toyota/Lexus (as well as Honda) is known for delivering good solid products that makes financial sense both for the consumer and for the company; if it means focusing engineering resource on a few model variants, so be it. The Germans and domestic mfrs are known for churning out gazillions of variants, none of which is properly debugged before being foistered on the consumers.
They may decide to drop the "450" combo (3.5 ICE driving the rears and electrical motors driving the fronts) currently experimenting on GS into IS at some point in the future instead of working out any purely mechanical AWD system. In the not too distant future, hybrid may well be a less expensive way to implement AWD, both in terms of fuel cost and manufacturing expense since hybrid may become as common as electronic fuel injection today.
people hated the 7's styling (as if that thing ever was attractive). bmw put its tail between its legs and "fixed" the issue. infiniti buyers and non-buyers griped about the interiors on g35s...nissan blinked and finally upgraded the interior.
we're the consumer, we're always right. if we say build it with a common 6 speed, then darnit, do it. don't come back at us with some corporate, apologist, empty junk pr message. sheesh, it's like having a conversation with a a vp at a big company,,," well you must understand that..." Uh, nope. Not our problem, just make us happy.
I suppose you can look at the sales figures on the current model to estimate %. Only problem is, if they don't make enough to have stock on hand, they may sell less than they could. Not everyone wants to wait 3 months for a special order.
Anyway, it is good that the are making the 250 6 speed. Should be plenty of juice for me, and maybe even decent mileage.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
So, if the GS had the 3.5/6 speed combo already, they could probably drop it right into the IS. Obviously Lexus either doesn't think that enough 3/5 buyers would want the stick (or that the car "needs" it), or that the stick buyers will be happy enough with the 2.5, but for whatever reason, they set it up that way.
Be happy they didn't go AT only.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
No, I'm not. $40k is too much for IS350 when a G35X can be had for under $30k; I said that dozens of posts back.
It's flat out strange to me that you bring up toyota's finances and status as if these things are materially important to consumers. we want what we want...no excuses.
I was not the one who brought up Toyota's finances or status. IIRC, you brought that up in asking why Toyota can't spend some of its horde of cash giving you money losing cars that you want.
The rational behind my argument is quite simple: I want good solid Lexus at reasonably low price. All the add-on options that I don't want and can not pay for themselves in the market place will inevitably add to the cost of my future purchase. That's what I do not want; I'm not interested in subsidizing someone else' car or "passion." It's no different from bimmer fans [non-permissible content removed] about BMW wasting time, money and engineering resource on avant-garde styling and i-Drive, neither of which is BMW's core competence.
Exactly! If Toyota can keep the price on the IS350 automatic $500 lower than otherwise by not wasting money on an IS350 stick, I'm all for delaying the IS350 stick; if Toyota work out a couple more bugs on IS350 automatic by not diverting engineering resource to an IS350 stick, I'm all for delaying the IS350 stick. The existence of a manual IS350 means absolutely zilch to me, or to the remaining 90% of car buyers. Price and reliability however are big deals.
My guess:
$30K for stripped IS250
$36K for loaded IS250 AWD
$35K for stripped IS350 (assuming it comes stripped)
$39K for typically equipped IS350.
But, hey... we can talk about it for the next 5 months!!
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www.quirkcars.com is the website of one of my local Infiniti dealers. Check out their specials section. The last time I checked, they are willing to sell the cars that they advertise, with a $300 doc fee, so the total comes to just a smidge below $30k despite their $29,600k ad. It comes with automatic, heated leather seats, xeon lights, CD changer. Not fully loaded, but not a stripper either.
According to your post, you are in a position to speak for "most enthusiasts".... I am an enthusiast (very enthusiastic about my RX-8 for MT/sports car driving/handling). I haven't, and would not, consider buying a Lexus IS with a MT (and I did not consider it when buying my '03 TL, my sedan for commuting/distance driving).
I think you, and others, have dragged this forum through long, tedious MT discussions - if the IS fails your checklist of features, you probably should be checking out the other 2 dozen car choices that meet them...
You said you are fading away from the IS forum....don't let the door hit you, etc.
We aren't afraid to say it, and we won' t be silenced!!
Who is that? Get away from me!! Get away, I tell you!! Someone help me, please!! NO, NO, noooooooooooooooo
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Lexus clearly stated the IS250 will start at the about the same price as the IS300. In other words, approximately 30k
Have you watched the NYIAS intro of the IS250? Apparently not, or you wouldn't be writing numbers so clearly out of line.
Have you watched the NYIAS intro of the IS250? Apparently not, or you wouldn't be writing numbers so clearly out of line.
$30k is MSRP. I was talking about market clearing price in the 2nd or third year (and clearly stated so in my last post). The current IS300 has MSRP of $29,735, and invoice of $26,165. So I'm right on the money if the car be had at a few hundred over invoice in the 2nd or 3rd year.
Could you explain the term "market-clearing prices"? Is this a lower price to gain market share or because the initial "excitement" for the model has passed? I don't understand the term. Thanks
"Market-clearing price" is a price point where steady streams of buyers and sellers can be maintained; a useful term in markets where Meaningless Supposed Retail Prices get bandied about a lot. Kinda like Edmund's TMV, but since TMV is Edmund's registered trade mark and they don't project such numbers into the future, so I had to borrow a term from the commodities market.
I am in the market to buy a car in the IS3 and BMW 3-series this fall. When the IS350 gets here I'll check it out. I'll also be checking out a 330i AT and MT. These two cars are the only ones that interest ME. And I will decide which best fits ME, and that's what gets my money.
I am not gonna wring my hands and complain till infinity about a lack of MT in the IS350 when the car won't be here for 6 months. And if the IS250/6MT is not to your performance level, don't forget the 325i has had a lower HP rating like for ever and continues to sell pretty well. Tells you its not just about HP rating afterall. Get an IS250/6MT and chirp the engine to get more performance out of it. I am sure you can up the HP with the right performance upgrades, and still come well under the IS350 price.
No, instead I wrote a nicely worded letter to Lexus. I let them know there is a market for some of us who want to abandon BMW but are so far stuck with it. I essentially asked Lexus to help me get away from BMW.
. And if the IS250/6MT is not to your performance level, don't forget the 325i has had a lower HP rating like for ever and continues to sell pretty well.
God only knows how they sell the 325i.
Tells you its not just about HP rating afterall. Get an IS250/6MT and chirp the engine to get more performance out of it. I am sure you can up the HP with the right performance upgrades, and still come well under the IS350 price.
Modding is not at all attractive to me. It also negates warranties unless the mod is factory. I could have modded my old 1.8T with a chip but as soon as the car went in for service (a given with my VW), I'd run the risk of the dealer trying to negate my warranty. No thanks.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Well you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe that Toyota made money on a car like the first LS400 priced at 35K. An all new car with a dohc 32V V8 and rwd. I don't buy that. Anyway that doesn't matter now. I agree that Toyota makes wise business decisions, but this thing about certification is just and excuse. Other companies do it and they also make money. My point is that Toyota should spend some of this huge wad of cash and do the right thing if they want to truly take on BMW, which was their stated goal. I don't see how a mere option of having a stick on their premier IS model is going to be bad business decision when they have all the money in the world right now. They'd sell even more cars with the stick. This all all excuses for Toyota not wanting to be truly competitive.
M
Other companies may have different price premium, targetting a different sales growth. Lexus is expecting IS sales volume to go up by 100%. They have to deliver some serious value/price quotiant to achieve that kind of sales growth. It's entirely wise to keep cost down and keep engineering effort focused, at least for the first year. Selling a few more cars is not good enough when you are trying to carve out a value/price point for 100% growth. If the IS350 manual sales can not be expected to pay for itself, the company should not take on unnecessary risks.
Isn't that what BMW did with E36 M3 (not trying to certify the 320hp euro-spec engine)? and now doing again with not importing a truely 2.5 liter engine for E90 (potentially lighter and smoother with its smaller displacement)? Apparently even the highest margin BMW decided certifying cost can be too high for some product variants.