Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

brightness04

You've got to spend money to make money. Thats business 101. Toyota spent HUGE amounts of cash developing HSD. They knew that Prius sales alone wouldnt make it back. I too have a very hard time believing that "certification costs" are the reason Toyota elected to not offer a manual on the IS350.

If there's a market out there where people would pay $4000 premium to have manual instead of automatic (HSD is a $5k premium), and a fast growing market, you bet Toyota would spend the money. . . but a las, manual is usually considered a "downgrade" at the cash register and the market is not growing.

merc1

But according to everything I read here Toyota can do it all. They have the money, R&D facilities and everything else that is supposed to be among the best in the world right? If this is the case then putting a stick shift into a sports sedan aimed at BMW should be a no-brainer imo. I will never accept that certification costs are the reason why they aren't.

If they wait until the 2007 model year it will be first generation IS300 all over again wouldn't it? The press will write the car off and the stick shifted IS350 will have an uphill battle once it appears. The new 3 will have the stick from the start, no waiting.

"Isn't that what BMW did with E36 M3 (not trying to certify the 320hp euro-spec engine)? and now doing again with not importing a truely 2.5 liter engine for E90 (potentially lighter and smoother with its smaller displacement)? Apparently even the highest margin BMW decided certifying cost can be too high for some product variants.

This is true with the previous M3, but did you see what they did when the car got redesigned for the E46 platform? They gave us the same 333hp I6 (well DIN 343hp in Europe) that Europeans have, in short they spent the money up front and the current M3 is still harped about in the press 4 years later. The car owned its segment despite Audi and MBs best intentions, only now do they field valid competition, but thats another story. The point is that this was Lexus' second time around and they're still coming up short on choices. No excuse this time.

Why would BMW import a 2.5L engine here when its cheaper to import two 3L engines in different tune? Of course thats cheaper to do, but is the customer being slighted in any way. Heck no.

M

oac

"If they wait until the 2007 model year it will be first generation IS300 all over again wouldn't it? The press will write the car off and the stick shifted IS350 will have an uphill battle once it appears..."

I must disagree, Merc1. For starters, this time there will be two variants of the IS. The IS250/6MT will pump out close to 210bhp close to the current IS300's 215hp. And how will the auto rags *write off* a 300+bhp IS350/6A doing a 5.5s 0-60 ? Will a 255hp 330i/6MT do a mid 5s 0-60 ? I doubt it. When the IS350 hits the streets it will beat the 330i in pure raw speed. How many naturally aspirated 3.5L v6 motors put down 300+bhp ? We are in Porsche territory here.... All the IS350 needs is the handling part and its a winner already. And when the stick model gets here, it wll just be the icing on the cake.... But we are ahead of ourselves already speculating.....

lexusguy

I agree. Despite the small percentage of buyers, Infiniti and Acura still spent the money to get manuals certified. When you're the underdog, you've got to beat the established players at their own game. Not offer excuses.

drfill

YES. I again agree with Merc.

The IS doesn't operate in a vacuum. The facts are it is losing HP AND torque, while gaining features, a trade-off for more ES-intenders than 325i intenders. Questionable.

Why would I want a "sports sedan" with significantly less power than before? When everyone is offering 255-298HP, what good does a 201 HP sedan do in this class?

It gets bumped down to TSX-class, that's all. Why would I compare a IS250 to a G35 6-speed? How are they comparable? The IS is no match. Pretty, but easily outclassed.

I don't know how the M3 got into this forum (or how Rotary did either, there goes the neighborhood), but if the 350 is a M3, why offer it with only an Auto? WHAT'S THE POINT?

Brightness

You speak as if companies only produce cars based on these certification costs. You know little as to why any maker creates anything. Lexus has yet to make a legitimate effort to make, and market, a sporty Lexus, with transmissions, power, tires, and handling befitting anything approaching interesting to a true driver.

Maybe Lexus is happy chasing Mercedes coattails. Making a better Mercedes in the process. That's fine. But the rhetoric from the suits, and the proof in the pudding are two VERY different things.

You make statements about "wasting money" on MT. Are Infiniti and BMW "wasting money"? Answer me that.

The IS has to start from scratch. Decide what buyers of this type of sedan (HINT: the OPPOSITE of a Lexus ES buyer!) want in their car. WHY would they buy a "sports sedan"? Why an IS?

Do they want to pull buyers from Toyotas, other Lexus, or from other makes? From Acura? BMW? Infiniti? Why are people buying the competition? What are they seeing in them? What HASN'T the IS provided that other makes give them?

Lexus was smart in buying share with the LS.

Smart in buying the Hybrid market with an affordable option.

NOT smart in giving people who normally WOULDN'T buy a Lexus a reason to sign up? Who INTEND TO BUY a BMW or Infiniti. We really don't want them.

Do I have it right now? Because your logic has been faultless, as usual. I'm just now catching up to your zen-like wizdom.

Rotary

When you create a point, or forum, worth discussing, let me know because I gotta git a lottery ticket. That will be one strange, but lucky day!

DrFill

jmess

I would tend to agree that you are rolling the dice with reliability for any major mod that increases HP any significant amount. I looked long and hard at a supercharger for my IS300 but came to the conclusion that there wasn't anything out there that could come close to maintaining factory levels of reliability, pass emission testing, and avoid warranty issues. When you add it all up you are better off with just getting faster car IMHO.

jrock65

"Will a 255hp 330i/6MT do a mid 5s 0-60 ? I doubt it."

C&D clocked the 2006 330i manual at 5.6s 0-60. So, yes.

"How many naturally aspirated 3.5L v6 motors put down 300+bhp ?"

The Nissan VQ, the Honda J35, the Toyota GR, the BMW inline 3.2.

"All the IS350 needs is the handling part and its a winner already."

Almost every single mag, even tame old Edmunds, has said that the VDIM on the GS is too intrusive, making it not fun to drive. Unless they tone VDIM down big time in the IS350 or enable it to be turned off, the IS350 won't win the performance/handling crowd, not matter how fast it is in straightline.

oac

"The facts are it is losing HP AND torque, while gaining features, a trade-off for more ES-intenders than 325i intenders. Questionable"

How so ? The IS350 is certainly NOT losing HP and torque. That's 300+bhp of output over the measly 215hp in the outgoing IS300.

"Why would I want a "sports sedan" with significantly less power than before? When everyone is offering 255-298HP, what good does a 201 HP sedan do in this class?"

Apples and oranges here. There is the 210-ishHP IS250 to go against the 325i, and of course the 300+hp IS350 to chart its own line against the likes of the 298HP G35. Don't compare an IS250 with a 2.5L motor against a 3.5L G35.

"Why would I compare a IS250 to a G35 6-speed? How are they comparable? The IS is no match. Pretty, but easily outclassed"

You asked and answered your own question. This is an apples and oranges comparo you are making here. When Infiniti comes out with a G25, then maybe they can go head-to-head, eh ? But I didn't hear any complaints about the underpowered e46 325i with the 184hp motor. Doesn't the old 525i have this motor as well ? Its not like a 200hp motor is suddenly a bad thing. Yamaha's 2ZZ 1.8L engine in the Matrix XRS or Celica GT pump out 180hp, but you'd have to rev this engine to 5000+rpm to get the lift. A 200+hp v6 and 180+Ibft of torque will do well in the low-end IS250. This engine can always be tweaked in future....

Relax, DrFill..... Life is good.... The sun will shine tomorrow.... "There is a method to Lexus' madness". I am not that worried until the product gets here...

oac

"How many naturally aspirated 3.5L v6 motors put down 300+bhp ?"

The Nissan VQ, the Honda J35, the Toyota GR, the BMW inline 3.2.

I said 3.5L V6 motors. The VQ and J35 only put out 298 and 300hp, respectively. The GR will put out OVER 300hp. And the I6 in the BMW doesn't count. Only the 911's 3.6L with 325hp is even close here.

merc1

As you can see, you're not realizing the full picture here, and you're forgetting history. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it and Lexus seems to forgotten the thud the IS300 hit the floor with after not having that manual from the start.

The current IS300 was competitive and placed high in some comparos when it came out, but ultimately the press knocked the car, writing it off because of lack of a manual. When the stick arrived, nobody cared the car's sales dropped like a rock because its moment has passed. You don't remember this? The complaints about the current IS were not about power (at least initially) or handling (the praised it in handling), but the lack of a manual was the main gripe.

It doesn't matter what the hp rating is to the person who wants a manual transmission. It wouldn't matter if the V6 put out 400hp, if it doesn't have that stick the car is done for those who like manuals. So far you really don't know what the actual HP will be nor the 0-60 times either. Pure speculation at this point. How can they write off a 300hp car, the same way the write off any car that doesn't have a manual trans in comparision to a car that does have a manual.

Its almost the same issue with Acura and fwd. Until they do a proper rwd car, the G, 3 will always score the points with the press. Important for a car that has virtually no standing in the sports sedan market like the current IS. It needs the favorable press.

The fact that they chose to put the manual on the low-hp model is all the more puzzling because obviously they see the need a manual somewhere, but not on the top of the line IS? Doesn't make any sense from a marketing standpoint, if BMW is the target, and they've openly said BMW is the target.

I think you and brightness are just making excuses for a very obvious oversight on Lexus' part. Plain and simple, everyone else has a manual and you're telling me it cost too much money for the world's richest car company to offer one. Doesn't make sense, nor do I buy it.

To compete with BMW you need to offer a manual.

M

brightness04

But according to everything I read here Toyota can do it all. They have the money, R&D facilities and everything else that is supposed to be among the best in the world right?

Do you believe that? That Toyota can do it all? If you don't then you are chopping the legs off your own argument; no rebuttal from me required ;-)

If they wait until the 2007 model year it will be first generation IS300 all over again wouldn't it?

Or it will be like first year G35 all over again, only with better interior. Who knows. The key to G35's success was delivering a ground-breaking value/price ratio, so to speak.

This is true with the previous M3, but did you see what they did when the car got redesigned for the E46 platform?

Of course I knew the E46 M3, that's why I specificly addressed E36 M3, which stayed in the market for quite a while for obvious financial reasons until the E46 M3 could come along.

Why would BMW import a 2.5L engine here when its cheaper to import two 3L engines in different tune? Of course thats cheaper to do, but is the customer being slighted in any way. Heck no.

Damn it, I want a small displacement I6 so I need to rev the engine to get really smooooth power; why can't I get that?? What do they call it, more driver involvement, more control, more fun revving; a lighter front would help handling balance too. If I wanted a big displacement 6 and easy driving, I could get a Mustang or something. Damn it, we should all write BMW to complain about that. ;-) Seriously though, a 3.0L 6 that only delivers 185ft-lb torque is quite crummy; even Ford's torqueless wonder 3L V6 delivers 207 ft-lb (Ford 500). why doesn't BMW just stuff the 3.2 from M3 as high line model and leave the regular 330 engine as base? And move M3 over to V8. What a rip-off. Doesn't BMW make a ton of money or something? They should spend some of that mone; us consumers are always right ;-) all tongue in cheek of course.

shipo

"...and now doing again with not importing a truly 2.5 liter engine for E90 (potentially lighter and smoother with its smaller displacement)?"

Fact 1) The European 2.5 liter I6 engine mounted in the E90 is almost the exact same weight as the European (and North American) 3.0 liter I6. The only internal components that have different weights are the pistons (3mm smaller in the 2.5), connecting rods (4.6mm longer in the 2.5) and crank (4.6mm smaller rod offset diameter in the 2.5).

Fact 2) Unlike virtually every other automotive based six cylinder engine in the world, the Inline 6 that is still being produced by BMW is a perfectly mechanically balanced (ie. all reciprocating masses are perfectly offset by other reciprocating masses) engine regardless of displacement. The only other 6 cylinder layout that is as naturally as smooth is the Boxer 6 in the 911 and if I'm not mistaken in a few Subarus as well (I'm not really sure about this one). V6 or even VR6 engines can be made to run smoother than they otherwise naturally would, however, such remedial componentry adds weight and mechanical complexity, and still they will not operate as smoothly as an I6 engine.

With those two facts in mind, the engine in a European 325i will weigh the same as the engine in the North American 325i, and both engines will be identical in their smoothness.

Best Regards,
Shipo

merc1

Do you believe that? That Toyota can do it all? If you don't then you are chopping the legs off your own argument; no rebuttal from me required.

Thats because you probably don't have one for it because your posts are some of the ones that point out what Toyota has and what they can do because of having so much money. What do I believe? I believe that they have know how to make a 3.5L V6 with 300+ hp and a proper 6-speed manual mate together with the best of them, and I believe they have the money/r&d power to have it done with ease. To say that they can't simply isn't believable. This is the mighty Toyota we're talking about here.

All the sarcasim aside you know they should offer a manual for the IS350.

M

merc1

BTW, the Nissan VQ V6 is a 3.5L motor capable of 300hp. The IS350's V6 hp numbers haven't been released yet. If they say "over 300" watch it come in at 310hp, not some huge difference you're trying to imply here.

M

brightness04

G35 did very well without manual in the first year. IS300 sales fell because people who actually buy Lexus want a luxury car first and foremost, and IS300 interior was not quite up to snuff. It would have been a great competitor to E36 or even E30, but not E46, where the market had turned soft. Lexus is learning the lesson. It's more important to compete in the grown-up's market than in the boyracer's. Boyracers can do all the talking but they don't pony up, at least not in large enough numbers that really matter. That's why IS is bigger and more luxurious this time around.

Its almost the same issue with Acura and fwd. Until they do a proper rwd car, the G, 3 will always score the points with the press.

TL scores quite well both in comparo and in sales. Thank-you very much.


I think you and brightness are just making excuses for a very obvious oversight on Lexus' part. Plain and simple, everyone else has a manual and you're telling me it cost too much money for the world's richest car company to offer one. Doesn't make sense, nor do I buy it.

Sure, someone forgot to put the IS350 manual in the to-do list. Just like someone forgot to put 760 manual in the to-do list, or numerous S and AMG cars. Even the G35 forgot it in the first year. That must be it. The whole luxury car industry is run by a bunch of alzheimer patiants.

merc1

"Lexus is learning the lesson. It's more important to compete in the grown-up's market than in the boyracer's. Boyracers can do all the talking but they don't pony up, at least not in large enough numbers that really matter. That's why IS is bigger and more luxurious this time around."

Only partially correct. Yes the Lexus did learn their lesson about the first IS' interior and luxury appointments, but apparently they didn't learn a thing about transmission choices. Nothing at all.

"TL scores quite well both in comparo and in sales. Thank-you very much."


True, but its no G35 or 3-Series beater, which was my point. I haven't seen it come in first place anywhere, again the main gripe about the TL as far as the enthusiasts are concerned is wrong wheel drive. That said I think the TL is a fine car, my problem with it is styling not fwd.

"Sure, someone forgot to put the IS350 manual in the to-do list. Just like someone forgot to put 760 manual in the to-do list, or numerous S and AMG cars. Even the G35 forgot it in the first year. That must be it. The whole luxury car industry is run by a bunch of alzheimer patiants."

Ok, ignore the obvious. The main gripe about AMG cars is a lack of manuals, and the only S series Audi that didn't have a manual was the RS6, but in that class only BMW offers a manual. Not the same as in the 3-Series class where everyone else offers one and Lexus doesn't. Quite a different market and situation. You forgot to mention that in your rant.

Now you have to be a "boy racer" to want a manual transmission and what is supposed to be a a BMW beating sports sedan. What an excuse and cop-out.

M

brightness04

Why would I compare a IS250 to a G35 6-speed? How are they comparable?

You are not asked to; at least no more than comparing a 325i to a G35 . . . there is no comparison.

I don't know how the M3 got into this forum

It's not my job to teach you reading comprehension, but here the hint: to illustrate that even the great BMW trims its offering based on certification cost and potential market acceptence related to price point that a feature would necessitate.

You speak as if companies only produce cars based on these certification costs. You know little as to why any maker creates anything. Lexus has yet to make a legitimate effort to make, and market, a sporty Lexus, with transmissions, power, tires, and handling befitting anything approaching interesting to a true driver.

Actually, the IS300 is a very sporty car; in fact, a little too hard-edged. It's closer to the E30 fans when they complained about E36 becoming too soft (E46 became even more soft, or in your words, ES-like). The market place showed, an E30 with more power is not what this market segment wants, especially with a Lexus plate.

You make statements about "wasting money" on MT. Are Infiniti and BMW "wasting money"? Answer me that.

Infiniti did not offer manual in its first year either. BMW already has a base that is willing to buy manual BMW's. Lexus is doing the right thing to float the IS250 as a trial bloon to find out just how much acceptence is there for a manual Lexus. Remember, there isn't a single manual Lexus that met market success, ever! Let's be honest, how many of you manual fanatics are going to abandon BMW? If you haven't done so already with G35 manual, chances are that you would just take a test drive at the Lexus dealer, and leave the bill for development and testing to us IS350 automatic buyers. I'm glad Lexus is not wasting money.

The IS has to start from scratch. Decide what buyers of this type of sedan (HINT: the OPPOSITE of a Lexus ES buyer!)

That's what they thought the last time, and the market proved them wrong. People do not buy Lexus in order to get a hard-core sportscar. Those who want Lexus make one are just talking trash with someone else' money, for they failed to show up at the last go-around; most of them chickened out at the G35 manual party . . . so now Lexus has learned the real market situation, and decided to heck with the talkers and "professional" test-drivers, and laying out the carpet for the buyers.

What HASN'T the IS provided that other makes give them?

The out-going IS is a sports 2+2 with two extra doors attached, whereas other makes in the $30k market make luxury sedans with sporty pretensions. Plain and simple.

lexusguy

The automatic version of the TL does fine. The MT version cries out for SH-AWD. It's got Saab Viggen levels of torque steer, and the mags have bashed it because of this.

brightness04

Only partially correct. Yes the Lexus did learn their lesson about the first IS' interior and luxury appointments, but apparently they didn't learn a thing about transmission choices. Nothing at all.

The success of G35 in its first year without manual shows that MT is irrelevent to market acceptance.

I wrote: TL scores quite well both in comparo and in sales. Thank-you very much."

True, but its no G35 or 3-Series beater, which was my point. I haven't seen it come in first place anywhere, again the main gripe about the TL as far as the enthusiasts are concerned is wrong wheel drive. That said I think the TL is a fine car, my problem with it is styling not fwd.

TL is a frequent perennial 2nd and 3rd placer, which is better than can be said of 325i, which prices close to TL, not 330i or 328i. Just for kicks, http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=46528/pageId=4806
That's first place for TL in a 9-car comparo, with 330i as runner up, and IS300 as third placer.

the only S series Audi that didn't have a manual was the RS6,

I was actually thinking of MB S class, not Audi's RS cars; comes to think of it, not even E class offer manuals. People just don't buy that many luxury MB and Lexus as manuals (C-class and below are not luxury cars); even roadsters are automatics; why no manual SL500, for example. IS250 manual is a worthwhile attempt at testing out the waters, and can probably pay for itself with the volume expected due to its cut-rate pricing. If the manual fans pick it up, there may well be an IS350 manual in the future.

merc1

Your pointing to a TL wining a comparo back in 2002 to make a point. Come on now. Ancient history. Fact is the current TL hasn't beaten the 3-Series or G35 in any comparo I've seen. Now if I'm forgetting a comparo here by all means.

No car in the S-Class market segment has a manual transmission.

No other car besides BMW's 5 in the E-Class segment offers a manual so why would Mercedes? These are mid level more luxury biased cars compared to the next class down.

Only the 911 and Maserati Spyder, two very sporting cars offer a manual, roughly in the same segment with the SL. The SL's main competition SC430, XLR and XK8/R don't offer a manual so why would the SL? Most would argue the 911 and SL don't compete.

Neither of your examples hold up, nor do they apply because you're overlooking the fact that in the 3-Series market segment, not only does BMW offer a manual, but so does Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti and even Acura. In short the class is loaded with them, unlike the market segments in which the E, S, and SL compete in.

Lexus is the odd car out by not having one. Clearly a different situation from the SL, E and the ridiculous notion that a S-Class should offer manuals when only one or two or in same cases none of the other cars in their segments offer manuals.

You've lost the plot to even suggest a S-Class should have a manual. BTW, the SLK350 does have a manual. A S-Class should have a manual? Man that is desperate.

M

brightness04

Despite the small percentage of buyers, Infiniti and Acura still spent the money to get manuals certified. When you're the underdog, you've got to beat the established players at their own game. Not offer excuses.

Acura is underdog to nobody when it comes to manual. Lexus not only offers you a manual in the IS, but also offers a different engine for your rowing pleasure ;-) On a more serious note, TL and G35 sell 50-80k each, compared to 9k total projected IS350 sells (50% base IS250 RWD, 30% IS250AWD, leaving 20% of the 45k units for IS350) . . . need I elaborate more?

mikegiller

For those saying that the press BASHED the IS300 without a manual, etc... read the review that brightness posted... its refreshing to hear the words of the critics as opposed to what the manual haters (those hating on autos :confuse: ) said the critics said. Also the video for the review of IS300 is interesting as well. In short, if you are too lazy or afraid of the truth to look for the video, i will sum up what the edmunds critcs spoke of the IS300: 5-Speed Auto with steering wheel mounted shifter is on-par with manually equipped cars, very fun to drive, incredible handling, best in class braking/stopping distance, only draw-back = not Lexus luxury, more Toyota. There you have it... they did not bash on the lack of manual and spoke very highly of its true sporting nature. I have high hopes for the IS350 and believe that Lexus will surpass these expectations... I don't know about all of you but all we can do now is wait til' any of us can test drive the car before bashing its "fun-potential". Don't knock it til' you try it...especially when its something subjective.

mikegiller

IS250 manual is a worthwhile attempt at testing out the waters, and can probably pay for itself with the volume expected due to its cut-rate pricing. If the manual fans pick it up, there may well be an IS350 manual in the future.

I agree 100%. Lexus does not want to promise something or even mention for fear of having to turn on their words if those enthusiasts get dissappointed by a hypothetical announcement revoking their statement that a manual will be introduced occurs (make sense? sorry if it doesn't...im tired).

The IS250 could very well be a "test" to see if people will catch on to a manual lexus.. and with the line-up changing in a few years with possible more powerful engines coming into the mix when lexus adjust the GS lineup, a manual may be offered... that is... if they move the 6 speed 250s.

brightness04

Your pointing to a TL wining a comparo back in 2002 to make a point. Come on now. Ancient history. Fact is the current TL hasn't beaten the 3-Series or G35 in any comparo I've seen. Now if I'm forgetting a comparo here by all means

How many comparos have there been? TL has been in exactly one comparo at Edmund's (the only place I bothered to search when I posted) since then, and it placed 2nd. It also goes to show how close comparos are (and nearly pointless looking at first place only). The same 330i is entered into the two comparos, and the TL-S that won the first was upgraded to the current TL and placed second. Go figure. The market place speaks loud and clear, and TL does quite well.

The class justification is quite specious. If a roadster can be excused for not having a manual (the original SLK320 did not; nor does any SL) due to low volume or first year, why not a low volume sedan in its first year? Roadsters are far more about sportiness than sedans. Besides, it's not like there isn't a manual IS. Furthermore, why should Lexus do exactly what every else does? Why doesn't Acura or Infiniti offer two engine choices in the segment? Why doesn't Audi, Mercedes or BMW offer any reliable models in the segment? Unless you are inclined to believe that German engineering is inherently unreliable, IMHO, offering less choices and focus engineering effort on these few options is key to Lexus, Infiniti and Acura's reliability.

brightness04

"Will a 255hp 330i/6MT do a mid 5s 0-60 ? I doubt it."

C&D clocked the 2006 330i manual at 5.6s 0-60. So, yes.

The relevence of that to 75% of 330i buyers who choose automatic would be?? The relevence of that the 99% of the population who can not shift as fast as the C&D professional testers (not editors, mind you), would be??

"How many naturally aspirated 3.5L v6 motors put down 300+bhp ?"

The Nissan VQ, the Honda J35, the Toyota GR, the BMW inline 3.2.

The variants are either not in the US market or cost $10k more.

brightness04

Thats because you probably don't have one for it because your posts are some of the ones that point out what Toyota has and what they can do because of having so much money

huh?? Where are you getting this? Where did I write that?

I believe that they have know how to make a 3.5L V6 with 300+ hp and a proper 6-speed manual mate together with the best of them, and I believe they have the money/r&d power to have it done with ease. To say that they can't simply isn't believable. This is the mighty Toyota we're talking about here.

To be able to do that as an engineering tour de force is not nearly as important as to turn a profit on the endeavor.

All the sarcasim aside you know they should offer a manual for the IS350

Of course not. Not when the total projected sales volume for IS350 is only 9k units a year. Of course, nothing would make you happier than seeing Lexus lose some money and have some reliability glitch due to having to keep track of too many variants ;-) You know you would never buy a Lexus.

jrock65

"I said 3.5L V6 motors. The VQ and J35 only put out 298 and 300hp, respectively. The GR will put out OVER 300hp."

The VQ in the Z makes 300 hp. Alright, so the 3.5 VQ makes 300 hp, the 3.5 J35 makes 300 hp, and the 3.5 GR will make 300+ hp . The numbers for the IS350 are good, but it's not as if it's revolutionary or anything.

The 280hp 2003 G35 Coupe 6MT got 5.4s 0-60 (C&D). The coupe weighs the same as the sedan. As stated previously, the 2006 330i 6MT got 5.6s 0-60.

I'm not saying that horsepower numbers are the be-all and end-all, just saying that the IS350 isn't going to come in and light the segment on fire in terms of acceleration.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the IS. The exterior, interior, and features are all great. In fact, if I were shopping in this segment, the IS350 would be the frontrunner. Of course, I'd have to test drive it first (as well as the new 3).

oac

in the 3-Series market segment, not only does BMW offer a manual, but so does Audi, Mercedes, Infiniti and even Acura....Lexus is the odd car out by not having one...

Merc1 how many times are we going to have to repeat this. OK here it is again for the umpteent time.

There will be an IS250/6MT

God ! Its tiring to have to keep harping on one single item, like it is all true. Of course, the Bimmer crowd won't let it go either, like they are going to buy a Lexus ! Get real !!!

For *most* Lexus buyers, the IS350/6A with paddle-shift will be good enough. The car will come pretty loaded on most dealer lots and will sell out, I can almost guarantee that. You have a class-leading exterior style, exquisite interior ergonomics, luxury features you'd find in $60K+ cars, class-leading HP output, class leading torque output, bluetooth, Mark Levinson audio, XM, VDIM, +++, and all for a price around $40K. How can that not be a success ??? Oh yeah... it doesn't have a stick ! Shtick ! Shmick ! Stithch !!!

rotoryfan

Very good post. Right on target/excellent points.

drfill

The G35 is in the low $30's, popularly equipped, as is the projected price of the IS250.

If you walk into a Lexus dealership looking for a $30k sports sedan, they will offer the 250. If you do the same at Infiniti, you will see a G35.

Since the G is an established success (as is the 325i), and the Lexus IS is not, Lexus needs to offer more power to compete in this class.

Even money, the 325i will sell where an IS250 will not, because it has been successful for 20 years.

Has the IS EVER been successful? Lexus needs to get off the bench and fight like men. That's all I'm saying.

This is another TSX, which some may want. I don't.

And with the modest sales of the TSX, I'm not seeing evidence the US wants another either.

DrFill

jrock65

"The relevence of that to 75% of 330i buyers who choose automatic would be??

Oac asked about 0-60 numbers for the 330i 6MT, and I answered. Don't shoot the messenger.

"The relevence of that the 99% of the population who can not shift as fast as the C&D professional testers (not editors, mind you), would be??"

So, apparently the IS350 will go 0-60 in the mid-5s. The relevance of that 99% of the population who will not torque brake their IS350 automatic like the C&D professional testers would be??

oac

All you said are TRUE !

Lexus' sales projection for the IS is modest at 45K combined. The G (coupe + sedan) sells at about 70K units, while the 3- sells upwards of 200K units annually. So Lexus will start modestly, and up the ante with a coupe, hybrid and maybe slot in the 3L motor @ 250hp-ish within a couple of years. At least that's what I'd expect to see happen in relatively short time. Lexus didn't get to be #1 in luxury sales in the NA market by being stupid. And they aren't wet behind the ears.....

Talking of sales, and the hype about the new GS and M. Well, March 2005 sales had the GS at 3500 units, to the M's 2200 units, even with the M priced cheap compared to the GS. This shows the continued premium of the Lexus brand that Infiniti aspires to be. Hence, Lexus can sell a lower HP product (IS250) for about the price of a G35, and do it well. BMW has been doing this for years successfully.

brightness04

If you walk into a Lexus dealership looking for a $30k sports sedan, they will offer the 250. If you do the same at Infiniti, you will see a G35.

What other Infiniti sport sedan is there in the price range? Nothing, nada. You are comparing IS250 MSRP to G35 TMV, which is near or below invoice right now.

Since the G is an established success (as is the 325i), and the Lexus IS is not, Lexus needs to offer more power to compete in this class.

Hence the IS350.

Even money, the 325i will sell where an IS250 will not, because it has been successful for 20 years.

If that's the case for you, your input on IS is irrelevent because you will never buy an IS anyway. For me, at the exact same price point, I will pick IS over 3 simply because reliability issues.

Has the IS EVER been successful? Lexus needs to get off the bench and fight like men. That's all I'm saying.

They took your advice the last time around, and you did not open your wallet despite IS300 outdoing both E46 and E36 on sheer no-nonsense sportiness. Lexus realized the real ingredient of BMW success:
(1) follow the money; the market has been getting soft after the days of E30, as babyboomers getting older
(2) put out something new for the reviews every model year.
(3) have 1/4 of the production in the high line for reviews and bragging rights, and move a ton (the remaining 3/4) low-brow models.

brightness04

So, apparently the IS350 will go 0-60 in the mid-5s. The relevance of that 99% of the population who will not torque brake their IS350 automatic like the C&D professional testers would be??

Unlike timely quick shifts, torque-brake automatic does not require skill. Besides, the benefit of torque-braking is limited. If you don't know or don't want to torque-brake, you can still get similar results just by stumping on the gas. On the other hand, shifting as quickly as the professional testers do takes years of dedicated practice and, frankly, talent.

brightness04

God ! Its tiring to have to keep harping on one single item, like it is all true. Of course, the Bimmer crowd won't let it go either, like they are going to buy a Lexus ! Get real !!!

Exactly! The whiners and bashers are not going to buy a Lexus whether there is a stick IS350 or not. They may take a test drive, and find more fault with it. They are not potential IS350 buyers; they are just bashers who feel insecure about their own car choices. I applaud Lexus for not wasting money making an IS350 manual that would never pay for itself with 900 unit volume. Even manual G35's are piling up on the dealer lots. The self-proclaimed stick enthusiasts are just talkers.

jrock65

No doubt the IS will meet their goal of 45,000. Actually, I think they'll exceed it.

"3- sells upwards of 200K units annually."

They sell a lot, but not that much. 2003 3 series sales were 112,000, and 2004 sales were 107,000.

"March 2005 sales had the GS at 3500 units, to the M's 2200 units"

Actual GS sales were 3209 and M sales were 2253. As expected, the GS outsells the M, but let's not overstate the numbers. I have a sneaking suspicion that M sales will gain as national advertising for the M started yesterday. It'll be interesting to see. But you're right, Lexus will have premium pricing relative to Infiniti, BMW will have premium pricing relative to Lexus, and MB will have premium pricing relative to BMW.

jrock65

"Unlike timely quick shifts, torque-brake automatic does not require skill. Besides, the benefit of torque-braking is limited. If you don't know or don't want to torque-brake, you can still get similar results just by stumping on the gas."

The reality is that vast majority of owners will not drop the clutch nor torque brake. Torque braking can make a difference depending on circumstances. The difference between 0-60 times and 5-60 street start (more real world) times is usually about half a second.

mvs1

I just took part in a JD power initial ownership survey. It's funny how many quote these as useful tools which they are to a degree, but here goes. Filled out the survey and pocketed their $1, which I'll use to buy a lotto ticket today. The survey again is initial quality, 90 days, or around 3 months of ownership. We (wife and I) have had this car a 2005 Audi A4 for about 5 weeks, maybe. DO we wait? Is JD Power looking threw our window at us? What if we take longer then the 90 days and there IS a problem, does that count as an Initial problem? OK, so no problems, interior space, appointments, oil changes, none to date, service to dates, none, overall ratings excellent, etc. Then for the "add to field", she listed, short armrest (she's 5'4", on her toes), the smallish cupholder, the fact that there is a door chime that will not stop until you buckle up(you can have the dealer turn this off), and the wipers Intermittent function compared to other cars.

Point being, most that polled to offer their experience which gets compiled and goes into the ratings, do not wait 90 days to fill these out, or may actually take longer. Or may in general experience a problem and it turns into the fish that got bigger story.

I've owned several Lexus, the IS will most likely be my next, in model year 2, with Hybrid tech. This Audi to date has been great, so was my 88 BMW 3, the few GMs I've owned, Hondas, Toyotas, etc. So who's having all these problems I read about? The four posters in the BMW forum? the two in Audi? The ONE guy that bought a Daewoo?

For me, while I'll still use JD Power and more so, Consumer Reports, the data is skewed, not a science in the least, and more subjective then most think.

Further, when comparing vehicles in general, does a 25-40 HP difference actually sway you from a new GS Lexus to Infiniti M? When is enough HP enough? Do most actually take advantage of these "differences". When I'm driving in my RX I've never had a Cayenne Turbo owner scream past me waving, or when in the A4 1.8T have a G35 smoke me telling me I'm #1.

gee35coupe

The three series has a coupe, vert, sedan, wagon, 3 engines, and 3 trannys, and AWD version.

G35 is sedan only, one engine, and 2 trannys and a just introduced AWD version.

GS has 2 engines, one tranny, AWD version.

TSX is FWD one engine and 2 trannys.

IS will be RWD two engines, two trannys and AWD option.

Looks like the 3 series SHOULD outsell everyone by nature of options alone.

The GS should outsell the G35 for the same reason, plus the Lexus name.

The G35 will outsell the IS.

But they really don't compete since the G35 money was all spent on the engine and they neglected the interior. The GS is also a larger car. Even after the refresh, the G35 cannot hold a candle to Lexus when it comes to interior design.

The TSX was never meant to be a high selling car. Honda's original estimates were 15,000 a year. They have exceeded that so far. But if you check national inventories, a TSX is a hard car to come by. It has some of the lowest number of days supply in the industry.

shipo

I've read many of your posts here and to say the least, I find much of what you have written to be biased and disingenuous. A few points:

- You argue that by adding a manual transmission to the current IS, Lexus did not turn the car into a winner at the showroom, therefore, the manual transmission is irrelevant for a Lexus buyer. I beg to differ. Many folks who wanted a sedan equipped with a manual transmission wanted a real sedan. The back seat leg room in the current IS300 is appallingly small, while I haven't checked the numbers in a few years, if I recall correctly, it is the smallest in the class. Me personally, that single issue would have been enough to prevent me from seriously considering the car were it not for the off putting looks, inside and out. The next generation IS apparently has the "Looks" thing ironed out, that just leaves the transmission issue for folks like me who want to stir our own.

- You make a case for testing the manual transmission waters using the IS250, and then if it is successful, including it as an option for the IS350. Sorry dude, that doesn't make sense. Most (if not all) manual transmission drivers that I know want more power AND a manual gearbox. Mercedes-Benz found this out the hard way. When they released the current C-Class, a manual gearbox was only available in the C240, and much to their chagrin, it wasn't successful. Why? Potential buyers expressed that they wanted three pedals mounted under the dash of the C320. Mercedes-Benz listened. Now the only C-Class sedan that offers a stick is the C320. Kudos to Mercedes for hearing what their customers wanted.

- You keep wielding "BMW Reliability" around like it is a huge ferocious man-eating tiger. I've got news for you, not even Lexus is immune to reliability issues. As an example of that you need to look no further than the large number of "Lemon Law" buy backs that Lexus was compelled to do for the early second generation GS cars. If memory serves, the problem was mostly limited to the GS400, which were so bad that a former member here at the TownHall had not one but two bought back. Yikes! Said former member had been a staunch Lexus advocate to such an extent that he had basically nothing good to say about any other marque. Of course that all changed when he bought a 540i 6-Speed after disposing of his second GS400, wow did he rave about that car. From my perspective, I've had many cars over the years, including two BMWs. Of the two, the first suffered two burned out taillight bulbs. That is the sum and total of the unscheduled maintenance performed on those two cars covering nearly a seven year period. Me thinks your ferocious man-eating tiger is both toothless and clawless.

- Regarding your statements about early SLK's not offering a manual transmission, as it turns out, I was working at MB-USA back when the SLK came out and I posted a somewhat humorous account of what happened when I found out that it was being equipped with an automatic only for the North American market. You can view that post at the following link: shipo, "Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedans" #6085, 3 Feb 2005 5:09 pm

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

hey took your advice the last time around, and you did not open your wallet despite IS300 outdoing both E46 and E36 on sheer no-nonsense sportiness. Lexus realized the real ingredient of BMW success:
(1) follow the money; the market has been getting soft after the days of E30, as babyboomers getting older
(2) put out something new for the reviews every model year.
(3) have 1/4 of the production in the high line for reviews and bragging rights, and move a ton (the remaining 3/4) low-brow models.

The market's not really soft. look at the numbers of M3s sold - over 650 per month. That's a car that goes for between 45-60k. They move 8000 units a year. Same "low volume" as the IS350 is projected at. Obviously, people do want hardcore. The emergence of the ZHP package is one more sign BMW realized there's a big market for harder 3s too.

What's been new on the E46 since the engine bumps in 2000? You'd have to wait until 2003 for ZHP package. Then 2005 came the M3 competition and e90. Hmmm...

Weird you mention puting the best models in reviews for bragging rights, even though Lexus lacks a best model. As they'll use the IS350a and get the usual chant from reviewers - fast car, nice handling, where's the manual?

spinzero

Exactly! The whiners and bashers are not going to buy a Lexus whether there is a stick IS350 or not. They may take a test drive, and find more fault with it. They are not potential IS350 buyers; they are just bashers who feel insecure about their own car choices. I applaud Lexus for not wasting money making an IS350 manual that would never pay for itself with 900 unit volume. Even manual G35's are piling up on the dealer lots. The self-proclaimed stick enthusiasts are just talkers.

So your conclusion is that people that want stick (whiners and bashers) will never buy a lexus anyway, and you "applaud" lexus for not asking them to consider lexus.

Why so much hate? Manual tranny is just like any other options in a car. Some people want it bad, although you may not understand it. I've seen many people saying they won't buy a car since it doesn't have a Navi system. (new Subaru Legacy comes to mind) I personally prefer to use an atlas, and I really don't see the point of investing that much for a Nav, but I don't "applaud " subaru for not offering a Nav. In fact, I wish they did, so that the Legacy, which I like very much, can appeal to more people.

When a new car comes out, there will be people disappointed at certain aspect of the car. Whether you like it or not, many people relate a car's sporty intention with true manual transmission. It's not necessarily because of the pure performance benefits, but because it gives you better a connection between you and your car. Why do you think Bimmer insists on hydraulic steering instead of going electric assisted one? It certainly doesn't make your car go faster. But it improves the SUBJECTIVE aspect of the driving experience. (BTW, I'm not a Bimmer owner, nor am I looking to buy one. I'm a big fan of japanese cars)

I personally have never seen a manual lover who is "insecure" about the preference. There's no need. It's just one other thing that I learned to enjoy, and if you can't, that's your loss. I certainly don't go out bashing auto-fanatics to "prove" that driving manual is better, because in my mind, there is not a hint of doubt that it is better for ME.

Really, who is being insecure here?

gee35coupe

Fragging M3 engines that they didn't want to replace. Even with the supposed unoverevvable SMG.
http://www.mbmw.com/e46_m3_engine_failure.htm
Special oil and warm-up procedures too. I wonder will the Lexus's engine have these requirements?

Maybe you have a 540i..
http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/nikasil.htm
Oh oh.

Not even gonna go into the electrical gremlins. And now we have I-drive and self-drying brakes. Yeah, I'm buying that Bimmer. NOT.

shipo

I never stated that BMW didn't have a few problems here and there. Personally, I don't care if my car has a few problems, what I do care about is how they are dealt with. The fact that both of my BMWs were perfect was just a bonus.

Regarding the Nikasil issue, that was related to U.S. gasoline, which has a much higher sulphur content than does European gasoline. Was it a gaff that BMW didn't test with American gas? Yup. Fortunately, once BMW figured out what the proglem was they voluntarily replace all Nikasil V8 engines. The flip side of that is Lexus, who the last time I checked (a couple of years ago), had still never acknowledged that the front ends of the Gen2 GS had any problems.

Regarding the "electrical gremlins" that you alluded to, I hear lots of folks waving that around as "Clear evidence of BMW unreliability." Having said that, I have been very active on both the 3-Series and 5-Series boards for the last 7 years, and I've seen no evidence to suggest that there are any significant problems. Could this be yet another toothless tiger? I'm thinking that that is a distinct possibility.

Best Regards,
Shipo

grylexis300

super super post!!!!! while it would be nice to have a stick in the 350 so the very biased biased car and driver bmw fanatics will finally stick a fork in their vaunted bmw 3 series i think you are so right. the one thing you forgot to mention though is this IS will also lead its class in maintenance/reliability issues hands down!!!!!! no mercedes, bmw or audi will even be able to TOUCH the new IS or even the current one in this category. WHY DO YOU THINK LEASING A BMW IS EVEN MORE APPEALING.

lexIS rulz.

shipo

Your rhetoric sounds exactly just like the same stuff that was posted when the original IS was released. The proof is in the pudding and from where I sit, it's going to be some time yet before the jury returns a verdict.

Best Regards,
Shipo

grylexis300

you mean bmw's have problems??? i thought it was just mercedes and audi??

if the world came to its senses lexus would outsell mercedes, bmw and audi combined. they all better hope to their lucky stars that NOBODY wants this new IS. if this new IS even sells 45-50K units how in the world can they compete with the sales power of the IS, RX, ES and even the new GS??? the bmw X3 and 3 series will not be able to stop the lexus romp!!!!! they will be too busy fighting off lost customers to the G35, TSX, TL, A4 and C230. the IS will come swooping in and put lexus totally over the top. the RX ALONE has seen to that in recent years what will bmw do now???? good luck europe. there are better cars out there today; you have lost your edge. IS, G35, TSX, TL. goodbye!!!!!

lexIS rulz

blueguydotcom

super super post!!!!! while it would be nice to have a stick in the 350 so the very biased biased car and driver bmw fanatics will finally stick a fork in their vaunted bmw 3 series i think you are so right. the one thing you forgot to mention though is this IS will also lead its class in maintenance/reliability issues hands down!!!!!! no mercedes, bmw or audi will even be able to TOUCH the new IS or even the current one in this category. WHY DO YOU THINK LEASING A BMW IS EVEN MORE APPEALING.

that's precisely why I've leased german cars. but reliability is not enough to get me into a car if i don't dig the way it drives. I'm hoping Lexus actually responds to the letter I sent them. i'm curious to hear the official line about why they're forcing me to get another bmw,.

lexusguy

This is not a Germany vs. Japan reliability war forum. There are MORE than enough of those already on this site.

gee35coupe

All those development costs. I mean if an M3 starts at near $50k but is based on a car that would retail for around $25k if you could get one with the formerly available 4 cylinder engine. Heck even the base 325 stickers for less than $30k. Is the engine and suspension worth $20k. There's got to be a lot of "developement cost" in there somewhere.

Sorry, I'll take my much more reasonably priced Lexus's, Acura's, and Infiniti's. They may not give you evry option, but at least you can afford em.