"With the last two LS models it seems Lexus always positions it between the two V8 S-Class models."
That's the OLD Lexus; this is the new Lexus we are talking about. One nobody has seen before in its sheer grand plan. Here is a sample:
The new GS450h announced last week becomes the premium of the GS class, delivering mid-to-high 300HP, with 0-60 better than the GS430's 5.6s. So expect mid-5s or lower for this car.
Next, an IS350 with 300+HP, with 0-60 about mid-5s (Lexus is waiting to see the 330i test to set their IS350 performance #s)
I hear the next hybrid is the IS450h. That would be awesome. Imagine a 3500Ib car with 380HP, and doing 25mpg, selling for $45K-$50K loaded. This car will be the premium IS model.
An LS/GS460 (300++HP) SWB/AWD variants !
An LS500 GT is the hi-po trim, with the rumored 600HP output (400 gas from a V8 motor + 200 electric). This car will be the premium LS model.
The HPX is rumored to be in production. Ditto the LF-A designed to go against the SL.
Did you say Lexus is not playing the HP war ? Look again. Hybrids will change everything. With gobs of torque at very low rpms, these cars will be luxurious, sporty, super-fast and yet fuel efficient. Combinations no other car company can boast of.
Sounds great, but its all speculation for the most part. I'll believe it when I see it. Way too much branding hype there.
It seems to me the New York autoshow news generally left most Lexus fans in the dark, nothing concrete just estimates.
The new GS was supposed to set the class afire, yet we have to wait until the 2007 model year. The competition isn't standing still and Lexus doesn't seem to be delivering to your hype. The IS350 with no manual and the GS gets run over as a sports sedan by an Infiniti. Hardly world shaking. Starting to sound like GM "wait till next year".
A 360hp GS460 will be met by a 360hp 550i from BMW if the 750i is anything to go by, and the next generation Mercedes V8s are on their way with hp ranging from 325-415 depending on which set of rumors you believe.
Hybrids will change the game for sure, I can't wait to see them match up against the German tuner cars - if that is what they're aiming for.
Lexus had better be careful though, because a GS450h to me on paper makes the GS430 pointless. I guess the GS460 will take care of that?
Also, had a Jetta with the 1.8T, only problem faulty window regulator, replaced under warranty. And yes this is my first Audi A4. I agree with most reliability is a major concern, this year 2005 Audi actually received a "recommended" rating from Consumer reports, don't they check reliability??? I'm not arguing past history, but I go with what I see, first hand, of coarse reference data collected by JD/CR/etc.. I know many owners of VW/Audi products most if not all having no issues.
Anecdotal "evidence"...BTW, I owned a 1.8T and it was in the shop 10 times in 2 years.
I'm probably one of the few people that doesn't really have brand loyalty. My buying patterns are more inline with what I need/want at the time. The IS350 caught my eye. But do not discount "who' they are trying to catch.
i'm not brand loyal. I'm anti-brand. american, MB and audi spring to mind. I really like the Infiniti, Acura and Lexus way of making cars. They just don't make anything right now that excites me. But at least they make solid cars.
Oh, and your not stepping on my toes, I don't own VW/Audi, just expressing some first hand experience. I've owned one. I didn't base my view on VW/Audi on my previous ownership. I knew going in VW's were lousy cars. Bought it anyway. They didn't change my mind. i knew going in BMW builds pretty poor cars and my ownership experience of a BMW hasn't changed my view.
And I don't know what happened with the pricing from Audi, the 2.0T is roughly 2k-3k higher, granted more powerful engine, seat heaters in the rear (for those cramped adults), roughly 60% new compared with the 05.
That price hike must be related to the euro. Interesting BMW is holding the line while Audi flinched.
Some of the most loyal customers that keep on buying from the same auto marque are VW buyers. Some of the most dated vehicles out on the roads are VWs(usually high maintenance cars end up 6 feet under in a scrap yard). Overall resale values of VWs are among the best in the industry(I posted this data many months ago on this forum), Extended warranty costs on VWs are not significantly more than for equivalently more reliable(as defined by CR) cars from Honda/Toyota.
In addition I myself and various family members/friends who own/owned VW/Audis have had nothing but good experience with them.
Despite my above argument--I do realize the issues with the current Jetta/Golf. But the Passat has not done as badly in terms of CR reliability ratings. In fact for several years CR rated Passat as the BEST in its class for several years.
Crazed bmw fans make the same argument. some yahoo one day pointed to the desirability of the original m3 as proof that bmws are good cars. huh, people will kill their own mother to own a mint MGB, that doesn't suddenly make MG's good cars.
VWs generally rank at the top for desirability in ranking surveys like JD Power. People want what they want, regardless of the consequences (I tend to buy with my heart too, so I can't claim rationality on car purchases).
I assume no lsd as everyone is nuking it. it's an expensive mod and I'm pretty anti-mod. i wanna buy it and drive it hard, no changes necessary please.
We simply want the choice. That's it. Like burger king, have it our way. You get a slushie and we get a row-our-own and everybody grins like idiots on valium.
The ignored ingredient in the recipe is DOT and EPA certification. Each engine-transmission combination has to be certified separately, and costs millions each. Assuming the IS250:350 ratio is comparable to historical 325:330 ratio, i.e. 5:1 or so, for 45k projected total IS sales, 350 will account for barely 7500 units, out of that, if only 10% are manual, that's only 750 projected units! How in the world are these cars going to defray the millions that will be spent on certification. Not to mention cutting into the base number for sharing the automatic certification.
Several VW defender's always say "well mine was always fine" but thats not exactly representative of all the cars in the field. When a car gets a full black circle in CR, it means more than 15% of owners have reported problems in that area. VWs tend to have lots of these full black circles, where as most Japanese cars are rated at 1-5% owners reporting problems. Volkswagen was not rated absolute industry worst for IQ by JD without reason. While CR often recommends the Passat, they only require average reliability to be recommended, and I have never seen a Passat listed as higher than average.
While I can sort of understand poor built Jettas and Golfs, $40K+ Toureg's having abysmal quality is pretty inexcusable. If recent sales are anything to go by, even loyalists will only take so much abuse.
"That price hike must be related to the euro. Interesting BMW is holding the line while Audi flinched"
Despite my defense for VW/Audi it would be self-destructive for Audi to hike their prices at uncompetitive levels! With the A4 price hikes, AUdi may have no choice but to heaily discount their cars to move some metal(a kiss of death for any luxury marque--especially during an introduction year).
It will be interesting to see the pricing of the new IS models. A competitively priced IS with or without manaul would make mincemeat out of an overpriced Audi A4.
Well, that's typical of most manufacturers after a redesign. The A4 I have is the older body style 05, which I actually think is more attractive, not the "new" 05.5 The new model is supposedly 60% new. I took into consideration the pros/cons of getting the newer model.
I track reliability the same as you, and I'm in no way questioning what JD/CR suggest. But I'm commenting about my experiences with VW/Audi and Toyota/Lexus, always great! The problem I'm having with some is that they refer to surveys yet really don't read what these surveys reflect, i.e. "first 90 days of ownership".
Anecdotal "evidence"...BTW, I owned a 1.8T and it was in the shop 10 times in 2 years.
This evidence is what JD is using, I have the JD power survey in front of me now, the dollar they send is quite crisp too. Funny how the compile data about these cars isn't it?
I guess my point in all this is, yes I will be driving and most likely owning the IS350, more likely the hybrid when it arrives the next year. But don't crown it king yet and discard the competition, when not one person on this forum has driven or owned one yet.
If you were playing Texas Hold'em, you wouldn't go all in without seeing the flop, now would you????
Lexus is implementing a different strategy with it's hybrid technology which is in it's 4th generation. (it sold it's 1st year technology to Ford which uses it in the Escape). Case in point the RX400H, it uses the same 3.3 liter six, although, it's rated by HP as equialvent to a 4 liter 8. The GS gets the Hybrid, next year, with other models to follow. I see Lexus beating others their own HP game.
Oh sure the hybrid IS high hp/ torque will translate into wonderful performance!
That is only half the measure of a successful sports-sedan. The other half is the agility/handling of a much heavier vehicle that is equipped with hybrid technology!
The ignored ingredient in the recipe is DOT and EPA certification. Each engine-transmission combination has to be certified separately, and costs millions each.
What's your point? This is the most cash flush, richest car company in the world. They're taking on a legend. They can't fork over 20-30-50 million, hell a billion to tackle a giant? Nope, don't buy it for a second. They got the Camry with a manual, the celica, the mr2. They can afford to certify. They choose not to.
The FJ-Cruiser will offer a 6-speed manual mated to the 4.0L version of Toyota's V6. Since the FJ is rear\awd, I'm sure this box could be adapted for the 3.5 with relative ease. They just dont want to.
all i know is cars are getting faster these days and the traffic is just getting worse. roads are more and more congested so i have no idea what you need 300-400 hp for.
but don't get me wrong. i do want the new IS350 to be named car and driver's ten best and dominate its class. and if 300 horses and a GS like interior are needed than so be it.
it would have been real nice if they would have kept the IS300. make it a 225-245 hp 3.0L. don't you think?? nothing impossible about having three cars. or two. scratch the 250. well, if they can keep the 250 under 30K it's a keeper.
What's your point? This is the most cash flush, richest car company in the world. They're taking on a legend. They can't fork over 20-30-50 million, hell a billion to tackle a giant? Nope, don't buy it for a second. They got the Camry with a manual, the celica, the mr2. They can afford to certify. They choose not to.
I will refrain from calling you "obstuse" like you did earlier, but please put more thoughts into it before rebutting for the sake of having something to say. How many Camries are sold each year? 200k+. Celica and MR2 both share the same engines, and in fact the base engine sold in most Celica and MR2 is shared with Corolla, another car that sells 200k+ each year. BTW, MR2 is not offered in automatic, makes perfect sense. Toyota didn't get to its current cash position by wasting money, nor should it start now. Both Celica and MR2 are being shut down for not making money. Lexus is trying to establish a profitable IS lineup, it makes perfect sense for them to start off concentrating a bit on the combinations that can expect the best sales, especially since IS has to tackle a specific price point (more certifications for esoteric models will simply run up the price on all the other models; it's not like they can charge $4000 for manual option on IS350; the cost of certification would have to be spread to the automatics and IS250's). When GS, SC and perhaps LS get the 3.5L engine (likely for Europe), there may well be enough combined sales volume to have it certified with a manual tranny.
But if you must know (seemed like many choose to forget or ignore) there is a true manual in the IS250 not SMT. Check out the pics in the Geneva show or on autospies.
Actually, the "sequential" manual was a flub in the press release.
"...Brad Nelson of Lexus Public Relations has sent us this clarification:
'I'm afraid that in the process of editing our press release, somehow the word "sequential" was incorrectly placed in front of "manual transmission." You can be sure that it is a conventional h-pattern manual transmission with a foot-operated clutch. Thanks for pointing this out.'"
They goofed.
I agree, Kentucky man. The issue is not whether or not a manual will sell, or whether anyone wnats one or not (I don't), but whether or not the car is percieved by the auto press as a viable sport sedan contender. My experience says that without the option of a stick, acceptance is a long-shot.
Toyota didn't get to its current cash position by wasting money, nor should it start now.
Wasting money? Again, you're not seeing the big picture. The big picture is taking down the top of the heap. Infiniti aimed and hit a nice bullseye. Lexus isn't bothering too and they will suffer the consequences. They've got the dough and they're already certifying 3 tranny/engine combos. Doing 4 would not be a big jump.
You're so willing to kiss toyota's butt that you can't admit they made a mistake. I can't fathom brand loyalty like that so forgive me if I don't drink your corporate kool-aid and nod along with their efforts to remove/avoid fun and excitement in their lineup.
Nope. I ran away from that board a long time ago! Actually, I don't think I've gotten near any comparo boards in about two years. They tend to get rather brand-contentious!
I feel the same way... but, that board isn't too bad..
The worst I've seen is the Luxury Marques board.. Just stupid ramblings about heritage and anything ABC makes is automatically manna from heaven, and everything XYZ makes is the spawn of the devil..
Everytime the hosts guide someone to a comparison board, I just cringe..
Anyway, you are off the hook.. Go get back in your rocker, Grandpa.. ;-)
"Lexus is implementing a different strategy with it's hybrid technology which is in it's 4th generation. (it sold it's 1st year technology to Ford which uses it in the Escape)."
Actually the story is Ford came up with their own technology for Hybrids, but it was soo close to Toyota's that they decided to pay a licensing fee to Toyota so there aren't any patent breach issues.
I read this in numerous sources right around the time the Escape Hybrid came out. One was detnews.com, I believe Automotivenews.com had the same story, as did other websites.
What I believe to be the case is that much of the software that Ford developed was very similar to what Toyota has patents on, so instead of worrying about litigation etc., they just paid them. But I do believe Ford didn't pay that much because ultimately they did develop themselves, whereas Nissan is buying the technology from Toyota.
Interesting. Wouldnt it cost Ford significantly more money to develop their own system from scratch than to just buy from Toyota though? GM and DCX are teaming up to absorb some of the costs involved, and Ford has less cash than they do..
I believe Ford started developing Hybrid systems soon after either Toyota starting developing them or soon after Toyota introduced the 1st generation Prius. My guess is since Hybrid powertrains have been in the making for years, maybe a decade(?), Ford was working on Hybrids for a long time also and in the end it just happened that their 2 technologies for Hybrids are quite similar.
And I think the reason GM and DaimlerChrysler are teaming up is more because they got caught with their pants down. I don't think it has as much to do about money and development costs.
GM & DC are late(very late) to the game and they need to catch up! The best way when you are starting in 2005 to develop Hybrids is to join forces with who is left with Hybrids!
A factory installed LSD would be $500-$800 for a Lexus and $800-$1000 for a BMW based upon the usual German Engineering surcharges. With the current IS300 it was about $350. So really not an expensive mod at all when installed at the factory and considering how much it improves the over all driving experience. Much more desirable than a $1000 worth of badges and interior/exterior trim.
From the MFGs point of view it adds some complexity in options stacking, in some cases some different drive train noises at low speeds, and an LSD probably won't last 100K+ with spirited driving.
If you really drive a sport sedan you really want an LSD. They are easily worth .5 seconds a lap in skilled hands (which is an eternity) and allows you more control under all conditions wet/dry/snow.
So IMHO if you rant about the lack of a manual you need to also rant about no LSD. A few minutes of spirited driving in an LSD equiped car vs a non LSD equiped car of the same model would quickly prove my point.
Usually it just doesn't "happen" that technologies are similar. In larger corporations secrets are few and far in between. I would be curious if persons that worked on the technology at Toyota, ahem, were offered employment at Ford.
I subscribe to most magazines, autoweek, C&D, motortrend, etc. I've never heard/read of Toyota making false statements about Ford in general. Can you link us to information regarding the Toyota/Ford issue?
A factory installed LSD would be $500-$800 for a Lexus and $800-$1000 for a BMW based upon the usual German Engineering surcharges. With the current IS300 it was about $350. So really not an expensive mod at all when installed at the factory and considering how much it improves the over all driving experience. Much more desirable than a $1000 worth of badges and interior/exterior trim.
I'm sorry, I thought you meant aftermarket. I'd get it if it were an option but alas that's not so on BMW (I believe the G35 has it...but I didn't dig that car's large size, seating position or the floaty feel of the suspension).
If you really drive a sport sedan you really want an LSD. They are easily worth .5 seconds a lap in skilled hands (which is an eternity) and allows you more control under all conditions wet/dry/snow.
Love it if factory installed. Not gonna mod my own cars. I don't even put window tint on my cars.
So IMHO if you rant about the lack of a manual you need to also rant about no LSD. A few minutes of spirited driving in an LSD equiped car vs a non LSD equiped car of the same model would quickly prove my point.
I agree. But unfortunately, I feel like it's a battle that won't be won (on any make in this age.). Sigh, I'm pretty much resigned to Lexus not being my next car. Bummer.
maxhonda99 wrote: To compare the TSX to the IS is a joke! huh...let's see FWD and basically a dressed up Accord with a 4-banger you gotta rev to 8000RPM to get any acceleration out of vs. a RWD, V6 powered sport sedan. Huh..no contest.
This is quite an absurd statement. Obviously the IS250 is competing directly with the TSX market, in price, size, handling, feature content, engines, and transmissions. You say TSX is just a dressed up Accord, well the IS250 is simply a 4 door Scion TC. Also max horsepower for TSX comes at 6800 rpm, and redline is 7110. so please get your facts straight. It cannot rev to 8000 rpm. So you're saying a 2.4 I4 does not compare to a 2.5 V6? That's a laughable argument. Does a 2.2 I4 S2000 not compare with a Z4 3.0 I6? I believe the S2000 has more power...and is faster.
As the owner of three Hondas and a Lexus I find they are all excellent at what they do. I just hope the IS250 is as great as it looks. I'm really ready for a new high content small sporty car and this car looks like just what the doctor ordered.
The TSX is a great car, but it does seem a little too Accord for me. Especially when my wife already has an 04 EX-L stick.
The IS 250 will compete with the TSX to an extent, but the fact the IS 250 is RWD versus the TSX's FWD will make it so many people do not cross-shop the two. Enthusiasts will not consider the TSX because of the FWD issue.
And whether you like it or not, the TSX is a dressed up Accord (not necessarily a bad thing). Don't forget in Europe the TSX is an Accord. They use the same platform. But you cannot say the IS 250 is a 4-door Scion. The Scion is built on a FWD platform, while the IS 250 is built off a modified GS, RWD platform. The two cars have absolutely zero in common mechanically.
"Dennis Clements, 59, head of U.S. operations for Lexus...acknowledges that the brand's core market of aging boomers "is not a good one to build an image in."
To keep the marque fresh and draw younger buyers, Lexus is redesigning its entire lineup over the next four years. "You'll see sportier cars, more powerful cars and trucks, [with] a wider range of engines," he said.
Convertible and coupe versions of Lexus' sportiest car, the IS 300 sedan, are due as 2006 models, with a new Lexus sport wagon styled like a lower, leaner SUV expected in 2007. The wagon is the first of a series of new crossovers — wagon or SUV styles built on conventional passenger car platforms — that Lexus is planning, Clements said..."
I'd say it's more than mere speculation on the coupe and the convertible. Of course, until they're on the road...
No there's nothing wrong with the TSX or any other Honda. Just yankin' your gams, all y'all. People take their brands a little too seriously around here time to time. They're cars after all...
Comments
That's the OLD Lexus; this is the new Lexus we are talking about. One nobody has seen before in its sheer grand plan. Here is a sample:
The new GS450h announced last week becomes the premium of the GS class, delivering mid-to-high 300HP, with 0-60 better than the GS430's 5.6s. So expect mid-5s or lower for this car.
Next, an IS350 with 300+HP, with 0-60 about mid-5s (Lexus is waiting to see the 330i test to set their IS350 performance #s)
I hear the next hybrid is the IS450h. That would be awesome. Imagine a 3500Ib car with 380HP, and doing 25mpg, selling for $45K-$50K loaded. This car will be the premium IS model.
An LS/GS460 (300++HP) SWB/AWD variants !
An LS500 GT is the hi-po trim, with the rumored 600HP output (400 gas from a V8 motor + 200 electric). This car will be the premium LS model.
The HPX is rumored to be in production. Ditto the LF-A designed to go against the SL.
Did you say Lexus is not playing the HP war ? Look again. Hybrids will change everything. With gobs of torque at very low rpms, these cars will be luxurious, sporty, super-fast and yet fuel efficient. Combinations no other car company can boast of.
It seems to me the New York autoshow news generally left most Lexus fans in the dark, nothing concrete just estimates.
The new GS was supposed to set the class afire, yet we have to wait until the 2007 model year. The competition isn't standing still and Lexus doesn't seem to be delivering to your hype. The IS350 with no manual and the GS gets run over as a sports sedan by an Infiniti. Hardly world shaking. Starting to sound like GM "wait till next year".
A 360hp GS460 will be met by a 360hp 550i from BMW if the 750i is anything to go by, and the next generation Mercedes V8s are on their way with hp ranging from 325-415 depending on which set of rumors you believe.
Hybrids will change the game for sure, I can't wait to see them match up against the German tuner cars - if that is what they're aiming for.
Lexus had better be careful though, because a GS450h to me on paper makes the GS430 pointless. I guess the GS460 will take care of that?
M
Anecdotal "evidence"...BTW, I owned a 1.8T and it was in the shop 10 times in 2 years.
I'm probably one of the few people that doesn't really have brand loyalty. My buying patterns are more inline with what I need/want at the time. The IS350 caught my eye. But do not discount "who' they are trying to catch.
i'm not brand loyal. I'm anti-brand. american, MB and audi spring to mind. I really like the Infiniti, Acura and Lexus way of making cars. They just don't make anything right now that excites me. But at least they make solid cars.
Oh, and your not stepping on my toes, I don't own VW/Audi, just expressing some first hand experience.
I've owned one. I didn't base my view on VW/Audi on my previous ownership. I knew going in VW's were lousy cars. Bought it anyway. They didn't change my mind. i knew going in BMW builds pretty poor cars and my ownership experience of a BMW hasn't changed my view.
And I don't know what happened with the pricing from Audi, the 2.0T is roughly 2k-3k higher, granted more powerful engine, seat heaters in the rear (for those cramped adults), roughly 60% new compared with the 05.
That price hike must be related to the euro. Interesting BMW is holding the line while Audi flinched.
In addition I myself and various family members/friends who own/owned VW/Audis have had nothing but good experience with them.
Despite my above argument--I do realize the issues with the current Jetta/Golf. But the Passat has not done as badly in terms of CR reliability ratings. In fact for several years CR rated Passat as the BEST in its class for several years.
Crazed bmw fans make the same argument. some yahoo one day pointed to the desirability of the original m3 as proof that bmws are good cars. huh, people will kill their own mother to own a mint MGB, that doesn't suddenly make MG's good cars.
VWs generally rank at the top for desirability in ranking surveys like JD Power. People want what they want, regardless of the consequences (I tend to buy with my heart too, so I can't claim rationality on car purchases).
The ignored ingredient in the recipe is DOT and EPA certification. Each engine-transmission combination has to be certified separately, and costs millions each. Assuming the IS250:350 ratio is comparable to historical 325:330 ratio, i.e. 5:1 or so, for 45k projected total IS sales, 350 will account for barely 7500 units, out of that, if only 10% are manual, that's only 750 projected units! How in the world are these cars going to defray the millions that will be spent on certification. Not to mention cutting into the base number for sharing the automatic certification.
While I can sort of understand poor built Jettas and Golfs, $40K+ Toureg's having abysmal quality is pretty inexcusable. If recent sales are anything to go by, even loyalists will only take so much abuse.
Despite my defense for VW/Audi it would be self-destructive for Audi to hike their prices at uncompetitive levels! With the A4 price hikes, AUdi may have no choice but to heaily discount their cars to move some metal(a kiss of death for any luxury marque--especially during an introduction year).
It will be interesting to see the pricing of the new IS models. A competitively priced IS with or without manaul would make mincemeat out of an overpriced Audi A4.
I track reliability the same as you, and I'm in no way questioning what JD/CR suggest. But I'm commenting about my experiences with VW/Audi and Toyota/Lexus, always great! The problem I'm having with some is that they refer to surveys yet really don't read what these surveys reflect, i.e. "first 90 days of ownership".
Anecdotal "evidence"...BTW, I owned a 1.8T and it was in the shop 10 times in 2 years.
This evidence is what JD is using, I have the JD power survey in front of me now, the dollar they send is quite crisp too. Funny how the compile data about these cars isn't it?
I guess my point in all this is, yes I will be driving and most likely owning the IS350, more likely the hybrid when it arrives the next year. But don't crown it king yet and discard the competition, when not one person on this forum has driven or owned one yet.
If you were playing Texas Hold'em, you wouldn't go all in without seeing the flop, now would you????
That is only half the measure of a successful sports-sedan. The other half is the agility/handling of a much heavier vehicle that is equipped with hybrid technology!
What's your point? This is the most cash flush, richest car company in the world. They're taking on a legend. They can't fork over 20-30-50 million, hell a billion to tackle a giant? Nope, don't buy it for a second. They got the Camry with a manual, the celica, the mr2. They can afford to certify. They choose not to.
but don't get me wrong. i do want the new IS350 to be named car and driver's ten best and dominate its class. and if 300 horses and a GS like interior are needed than so be it.
it would have been real nice if they would have kept the IS300. make it a 225-245 hp 3.0L. don't you think?? nothing impossible about having three cars. or two. scratch the 250. well, if they can keep the 250 under 30K it's a keeper.
I will refrain from calling you "obstuse" like you did earlier, but please put more thoughts into it before rebutting for the sake of having something to say. How many Camries are sold each year? 200k+. Celica and MR2 both share the same engines, and in fact the base engine sold in most Celica and MR2 is shared with Corolla, another car that sells 200k+ each year. BTW, MR2 is not offered in automatic, makes perfect sense. Toyota didn't get to its current cash position by wasting money, nor should it start now. Both Celica and MR2 are being shut down for not making money. Lexus is trying to establish a profitable IS lineup, it makes perfect sense for them to start off concentrating a bit on the combinations that can expect the best sales, especially since IS has to tackle a specific price point (more certifications for esoteric models will simply run up the price on all the other models; it's not like they can charge $4000 for manual option on IS350; the cost of certification would have to be spread to the automatics and IS250's). When GS, SC and perhaps LS get the 3.5L engine (likely for Europe), there may well be enough combined sales volume to have it certified with a manual tranny.
Otherwise, why offer the sequential manual in the IS250?
There may be all sorts of good reasons not to have the manual, but that sure isn't one of them..
Whether you want a manual or not, this is a big marketing mistake by Toyota.. you would think they would have learned from the last time..
I would guess the cost of certification is less than the cost of one print ad in Car & Driver to defend their choice.
regards,
kyfdx
(only occasionally obtuse)
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But if you must know (seemed like many choose to forget or ignore) there is a true manual in the IS250 not SMT. Check out the pics in the Geneva show or on autospies.
"...Brad Nelson of Lexus Public Relations has sent us this clarification:
'I'm afraid that in the process of editing our press release, somehow the word "sequential" was incorrectly placed in front of "manual transmission." You can be sure that it is a conventional h-pattern manual transmission with a foot-operated clutch. Thanks for pointing this out.'"
They goofed.
I agree, Kentucky man. The issue is not whether or not a manual will sell, or whether anyone wnats one or not (I don't), but whether or not the car is percieved by the auto press as a viable sport sedan contender. My experience says that without the option of a stick, acceptance is a long-shot.
Sumpns up, says I.
But, then someone with more experience with Toyotas started talking about MR2s and I let it go...
Sometimes I hate being right... even if only for a little while.. ;-)
Either way, two transmissions for the IS250.. no reason they couldn't have done the same with the IS350.. the car mags will kill them for this..
regards,
kyfdx
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Oh poop! Wasn't me was it?
:-o
Wasting money? Again, you're not seeing the big picture. The big picture is taking down the top of the heap. Infiniti aimed and hit a nice bullseye. Lexus isn't bothering too and they will suffer the consequences. They've got the dough and they're already certifying 3 tranny/engine combos. Doing 4 would not be a big jump.
You're so willing to kiss toyota's butt that you can't admit they made a mistake. I can't fathom brand loyalty like that so forgive me if I don't drink your corporate kool-aid and nod along with their efforts to remove/avoid fun and excitement in their lineup.
kyfdx, "Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans" #3345, 23 Mar 2005 1:09 pm!keywords=allin%3Amsgtext%20kyfdx%20sequential
Wale... I'll have to check and see if that was your fault... lol
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;-)
The worst I've seen is the Luxury Marques board.. Just stupid ramblings about heritage and anything ABC makes is automatically manna from heaven, and everything XYZ makes is the spawn of the devil..
Everytime the hosts guide someone to a comparison board, I just cringe..
Anyway, you are off the hook.. Go get back in your rocker, Grandpa.. ;-)
regards,
kyfdx
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Got time for checkers? Don't mind that squeeking sound; it's my hip...
shipo, "2006 BMW 3-series" #1506, 23 Mar 2005 2:24 pm
But some individidual on post 1522 refuted me! Guess who that was? ;p
Regards
Nostradamus Dewey
You'll notice that was about an hour and a half after I was told that I was wrong about it being a true manual?
So, we are both good guessers... Just no cojones to stick with it....lol.
regards,
kyfdx
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D'oh!
:-)
Actually the story is Ford came up with their own technology for Hybrids, but it was soo close to Toyota's that they decided to pay a licensing fee to Toyota so there aren't any patent breach issues.
What I believe to be the case is that much of the software that Ford developed was very similar to what Toyota has patents on, so instead of worrying about litigation etc., they just paid them. But I do believe Ford didn't pay that much because ultimately they did develop themselves, whereas Nissan is buying the technology from Toyota.
does anyone know what engine is going into the coupe??? 2.5 or 3.5 or both???
GM & DC are late(very late) to the game and they need to catch up! The best way when you are starting in 2005 to develop Hybrids is to join forces with who is left with Hybrids!
From the MFGs point of view it adds some complexity in options stacking, in some cases some different drive train noises at low speeds, and an LSD probably won't last 100K+ with spirited driving.
If you really drive a sport sedan you really want an LSD. They are easily worth .5 seconds a lap in skilled hands (which is an eternity) and allows you more control under all conditions wet/dry/snow.
So IMHO if you rant about the lack of a manual you need to also rant about no LSD. A few minutes of spirited driving in an LSD equiped car vs a non LSD equiped car of the same model would quickly prove my point.
I subscribe to most magazines, autoweek, C&D, motortrend, etc. I've never heard/read of Toyota making false statements about Ford in general. Can you link us to information regarding the Toyota/Ford issue?
I'm sorry, I thought you meant aftermarket. I'd get it if it were an option but alas that's not so on BMW (I believe the G35 has it...but I didn't dig that car's large size, seating position or the floaty feel of the suspension).
If you really drive a sport sedan you really want an LSD. They are easily worth .5 seconds a lap in skilled hands (which is an eternity) and allows you more control under all conditions wet/dry/snow.
Love it if factory installed. Not gonna mod my own cars. I don't even put window tint on my cars.
So IMHO if you rant about the lack of a manual you need to also rant about no LSD. A few minutes of spirited driving in an LSD equiped car vs a non LSD equiped car of the same model would quickly prove my point.
I agree. But unfortunately, I feel like it's a battle that won't be won (on any make in this age.). Sigh, I'm pretty much resigned to Lexus not being my next car. Bummer.
This is quite an absurd statement. Obviously the IS250 is competing directly with the TSX market, in price, size, handling, feature content, engines, and transmissions.
You say TSX is just a dressed up Accord, well the IS250 is simply a 4 door Scion TC. Also max horsepower for TSX comes at 6800 rpm, and redline is 7110. so please get your facts straight. It cannot rev to 8000 rpm.
So you're saying a 2.4 I4 does not compare to a 2.5 V6? That's a laughable argument. Does a 2.2 I4 S2000 not compare with a Z4 3.0 I6? I believe the S2000 has more power...and is faster.
OTOH, and in the current spirit of the thread, Hondas suck.
[-P
The TSX is a great car, but it does seem a little too Accord for me. Especially when my wife already has an 04 EX-L stick.
And whether you like it or not, the TSX is a dressed up Accord (not necessarily a bad thing). Don't forget in Europe the TSX is an Accord. They use the same platform. But you cannot say the IS 250 is a 4-door Scion. The Scion is built on a FWD platform, while the IS 250 is built off a modified GS, RWD platform. The two cars have absolutely zero in common mechanically.
Just like the IS300 is a Toyota Alteeza....
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To keep the marque fresh and draw younger buyers, Lexus is redesigning its entire lineup over the next four years. "You'll see sportier cars, more powerful cars and trucks, [with] a wider range of engines," he said.
Convertible and coupe versions of Lexus' sportiest car, the IS 300 sedan, are due as 2006 models, with a new Lexus sport wagon styled like a lower, leaner SUV expected in 2007. The wagon is the first of a series of new crossovers — wagon or SUV styles built on conventional passenger car platforms — that Lexus is planning, Clements said..."
I'd say it's more than mere speculation on the coupe and the convertible. Of course, until they're on the road...
No there's nothing wrong with the TSX or any other Honda. Just yankin' your gams, all y'all. People take their brands a little too seriously around here time to time. They're cars after all...