"In that case, it is highly likely the IS250 will become the IS300 at the same time.."
Maybe they can ADD the IS300 to the lineup by Fall 2006, not replace the 2.5L, since it may be too soon to be replacing the 2.5L after only 1-yr. That would make the most sense: a 204-208hp IS250, a 250hp IS300, and a 310hp IS350. That would be awesome providing a range of engine and pricing choices for the consumer.
Fall of 2006, everything starts to coalesce together, with the release of the LS460 (340+hp), the GS460 (340+hp), and the GS350 (300+hp), maybe even throw in a manual IS350 into the mix, eh ! Of course, let's not forget the GS450h (330+hp) coming out this year. That gives buyers so many choices.... IMHO, this is too much going on and may detract from the key launch among these, which is the 2007 LS. But we'll see if they can pull it off.
Fine 39 and change MSRP for just the Sport Pkg and metallic paint. I dont really care for vinyl, regardless of what BMW calls it. Obviously, the 3 is the car for you, and European Delivery is an awesome way to go about it. But, IMO, the price is still highish for the (lack of) content level. I also think will be interesting to see if a 6M 255hp 3 series will be able to outrun the 6A 300+ hp IS350....
"Maybe they can ADD the IS300 to the lineup by Fall 2006, not replace the 2.5L"
Do you think they would have THREE different engines for the same model? I got the impression the 2.5 is an engine shared with Europe, while the 3.5 is not, and neither would the 3.0 be. So they are achieving savings through economies of scale for now by sharing the 2.5 between the European and American markets, and later they would just leave the 2.5 to be Euro-only.
But keeping the 2.5 as the base engine and having three engines would be a good way for them to hold the line on price and keep a very affordable base model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
" don't much care if it can outrun an is350. the is350 is junk to me without a manual"
Junk is a strong word! But since you used it, imo the BMW 330i is junk without manual. In fact any car is junk without manual.
It is truly tragic that the IS350 has no clutch pedal. But this tragedy extends to German marques also. MB, Audi A4/A6(6 cyl. has no manuual) and VW Passat(6 cyl.).
Oh and may I add BMW! Unlike the current generation x5 3.0, the new and upcoming X5 will not have manual!
This no manual phenomena is not only prevalent among Lexus vehicles.
The C320 and its replacement the C350 do offer a manual. I think both A4 models offer a manual too. Of course in the 5-Series class the 5 is the only one to offer a manual, true.
Let's not forget the new M5 has no manual transmission either!
As I said before, every year, less and less people want a clutch pedal, therefore manufacturer's make less and less. And the few people that want it get screwed due to the high developmental costs related to building a manual transmission that will be a niche product.
AAA says BMW Z4 only gets 14.5 when it states 21/29. And from my experience with rental cars (I travel for work 2-3 times a month. Euro/USA) I'd have to agree. But don't take my work I'm sure AAA carries a bit more weight. ;^)
I looked at the inventory of a couple of local dealers. There was not a single 330i under $40k and most of the 325i models were over $35k. These were 2005 (E46) models.
So most of the alloments of the 2006 330i will probably be loaded with options? At least out here (CA). Or maybe these are leftover inventory of discontinued models and not representative of the typical inventory when the cars are in mid-production?
Can you easily custom order with just the options you want?
It's traffic. By 7:30-8 AM, sometimes earlier, it's virtually stop and go traffic.
It doesn't ease up that much during non-commute hours either or the weekends. Once we had a power outage on a Friday for like 10 hours and you had crawling traffic. Took an hour to traverse 2-3 miles.
I know traffic is bad everywhere. So where are people opening up on these fast cars and have to downshift to take curves at optimal speeds?
Only people (at least round here) who drive daily on winding mountain roads with curves rather than 90-degree corners are those living in multimillion-dollar compounds. And those people are shopping in an entirely different market segment than entry-level luxury sports sedans. That is if they still drive themselves.
How do you know? The pricing for the IS350 isn't even out? Maybe for you the 330i would be the best. Unfortunately Lexus doesn't really offer a stripped-down luxury car... is that an oxymoron? I mean EVERYTHING is an option on a BMW. Leather seats, color other than basic Black/White, auto, power roof etc, xenon lights (is that standard now in 330?).. how do you have a luxury car that has leather as an option??? Anyway, if you build the 330i to have all that, it comes to 45k... of course getting the nav means you'll get a cd-changer in the glove-box... what's that about? Even a Nissan can handle a nav and still keep the dash cd-changer. And the i-drive system... don't get me started. And do you know why they offer 4-years maintenance??? Have you seen the cost-to-own/reliability after the 4 year mark??? And if they are taking care of the car for the first 4 years, how the heck does it still manager to be so un-reliable??? Just check out consumer reports or have you seen the la-times lately. BMW was in the BOTTOM 5 for reliability. I'm not a fan of the IS350, it's not even out yet. I'm just saying BMW has lost the edge... but people still want to make it out to be the best damn cars on the planet.
"Huh...Doesn't the EPA calculate city/highway MPG figures?
It's more the EPA's fault for not changing their testing methods to keep up with how driving habits have changed over the last few decades."
RE:
Totally agree with you man. I'm just trying to inform people. But how come my TL gets the mileage right? And my past Japanese cars got it right. My guess, and it's just a guess is Euro/US cars are tuning for EPA while the Japanese cars actually have really good all around mileage.
I drive with a stick during traffic jams, cell phone manuevers, eating Tim Hortons Dounuts(Dunkin Donuts and Krispy Kreme just cant compete with Canadian donuts), coffee and two disgruntled kids behind.
I would choose not to drive any other way than with a stick!
Junk is a strong word! But since you used it, imo the BMW 330i is junk without manual. In fact any car is junk without manual.
It is truly tragic that the IS350 has no clutch pedal. But this tragedy extends to German marques also. MB, Audi A4/A6(6 cyl. has no manuual) and VW Passat(6 cyl.).
I concur!
Oh and may I add BMW! Unlike the current generation x5 3.0, the new and upcoming X5 will not have manual!
Suv (or their marketing bull SAV), goes without saying it's useless. A tall station wagon. Had the X3 for 3 days and it was miserable for me - even with the 3.0 and a 6MT I hated that thing.
"Totally agree with you man. I'm just trying to inform people. But how come my TL gets the mileage right?"
Maybe it's just you!
I don't know what to say. With my Accord EXV6(EPA 20/28 rating) I average about 19. ANd worse I have never come close to 28 on the highway, even driving at a steady 70MPH with the cruise on! The most I have gotten on a long trim with 95%+ highway is 25-26MPG. Even alot of people with the last generation Accord V6 complain about what they get. Most get about what I get on the highway.
Meanwhile, my uncle's 2000 LS400 easily beats its EPA figures(19/25) on the highway. On trips driving at 75-80MPH average speeds I have gotten 27-28MPG but in around town driving it only gets about 17-18MPG. And on long trips his ES300 matches EPA estimates of 28 highway but dips down to 18 or so in around town driving.
Alot of that article may depend on driving habits. Maybe BMW Z drivers have lead foots!
I mean EVERYTHING is an option on a BMW. Leather seats, color other than basic Black/White, auto, power roof etc, xenon lights (is that standard now in 330?).. how do you have a luxury car that has leather as an option???
Lets see, in 05 moonroof is standard and MANY enthusiasts are mad about that as many BMW buyers don't want a roof as it hurts the car's structural integrity. Xenon is standard on the 330i in 06. Power seats are too.
Automatic should be an option as that's antithetical to being the ultimate driving machine.
Anyway, if you build the 330i to have all that, it comes to 45k
With leather, moon, xenon and metallic paint the car is 40,500. Do euro delivery and it's 35k. If you add on silly junk like nav, laser/radar cruise, active steering, sunshades, etc it'll get near 50k.
... of course getting the nav means you'll get a cd-changer in the glove-box... what's that about? Even a Nissan can handle a nav and still keep the dash cd-changer. And the i-drive system... don't get me started. And do you know why they offer 4-years maintenance??? Have you seen the cost-to-own/reliability after the 4 year mark??? And if they are taking care of the car for the first 4 years, how the heck does it still manager to be so un-reliable??? Just check out consumer reports or have you seen the la-times lately. BMW was in the BOTTOM 5 for reliability. I'm not a fan of the IS350, it's not even out yet. I'm just saying BMW has lost the edge... but people still want to make it out to be the best damn cars on the planet.
Navi= 2k for a device that's got less than $200 in parts and software? Major ripoff. And totally for the bling, bling.
1. We know the IS250 will start at 30k (Lexus's guy at the presentation at nyias clearly said the base is300 would be the starting point for the IS250).
2. Running from that knowledge AND the fact that xenon is not standard on the IS350 (look at the toyota PR info and you'll see the IS350 has a laundry list of extra features) it's pretty safe to assume an IS350 with xenon and sports package (another option), the price tag for an IS350 would have to creep up to at least 35,000 (2k in options). Yeah, I'm being generous saying the IS250-IS350 gulf is only going to be 3k. If we believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
As for lost the edge, it's in the drive. Either driving dynamics are where it's at or it's not your thing. To each his own. A car with an automatic has lousy driving dynamics, IMHO. Lexus basically flipped off the enthusiast crowd with their decision. They told current manual owners of Infiniti g35ss, TLs and 3 series cars: We don't want you as a buyer.
I would very possibly end up in an IS350 if it had a manual. It'd get a drive and it just has to match the road feel of a BMW to win me over. Just match it. I'm not asking for the IS to clobber the 330i. I simply want something on par with a 3 and I'll gladly walk away from BMW. I'd rather not own a car that makes me wince when I hear a sound or one that I fear owning outside of warranty. But Lexus made the decision for me...
don't know what to say. With my Accord EXV6(EPA 20/28 rating) I average about 19. ANd worse I have never come close to 28 on the highway, even driving at a steady 70MPH with the cruise on! The most I have gotten on a long trim with 95%+ highway is 25-26MPG. Even alot of people with the last generation Accord V6 complain about what they get. Most get about what I get on the highway.
Seriously? I always thought honda got great mileage. Weird. Around town I shift at 4.5k-6k in my 3 and still get 22mpg. On the freeway I tend to get over 30. On a trip back from Vegas (300+ miles) I averaged 100 mpg and netted 31 mpg. Even running out to Vegas at times above 130 I still got 26 mpg. Shrug.
Alot of that article may depend on driving habits. Maybe BMW Z drivers have lead foots!
I looked at the inventory of a couple of local dealers. There was not a single 330i under $40k and most of the 325i models were over $35k. These were 2005 (E46) models.
That's not representative of anything really as the e46 330i has a 4200 incentive on it. Figure out the cost of the car at invoice +400, then subtract that incentive.
So most of the alloments of the 2006 330i will probably be loaded with options? At least out here (CA)
Most likely. If you buy off the lot, you deserve to get ripped off. Lots of all makes load up the cars with massive amounts of junk. I imagine the e90s will have radar cruise and active steering and all manner of junk that just add to the bottom line.
Can you easily custom order with just the options you want?
Walk into any dealership and tell the manager you want to do ED. They will love you for it. Why? They make profit and it doesn't count against their allotment. If they were to get 500 cars in 06, they still will, plus they'll have profit from doing an ED on your car.
Order for delviery to the dealer and they become wary if you order a stripper.
Couldn't agree with you more. I have no desire to race to next stop sign or red light. I'm also not into keeping up with or surpassing the Jones... Other than bragging rights, does it really matter if it takes 7 or 8 seconds to get to 60 MPH (I didn't now that urban streets were considered race tracks). How much HP do people actually need? In most cases torque is more important anyway. That's why it won't matter to the majority of individuals purchasing this vehicle. Toyota missed the mark on their first attempt with the IS. However, it had nothing to do with the lack of power. The vehicle was too small and was not a true "Lexus". Sorry guys, had a couple beers (walked to and from the corner pub). Just my opinion.
Well, it seems the IS will not get a real manual tranny(with a clutch).
How have I come to this conclusion?
Taking a look at the pictures, the IS has no emergency brake lever on the center console. It's got that stupidy foot brake under the left of the dash!
Now as far as I know, manual equipped cars always have the hand operated emergency brake on the center console. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.
Doesn't matter to me that much but to the hard core manual fans out there...death to Lexus! As long as it's got nice room(better than the IS300) front and back, good gas mileage, and handling like the outgoing IS300, and Lexus quality/reliability, I'm probably in line to buy one.
"Lets see, in 05 moonroof is standard and MANY enthusiasts are mad about that as many BMW buyers don't want a roof as it hurts the car's structural integrity. Xenon is standard on the 330i in 06. Power seats are too."
I'm glad to see they are getting or will get more standard features. ;^)
"Automatic should be an option as that's antithetical to being the ultimate driving machine. "
Most BMW in the states are auto/leather and you can ONLY get them with auto/leather without special order. It is after all a lux-car. IMO auto should be a NO-COST option. Just like Acura/Lexus etc.
"With leather, moon, xenon and metallic paint the car is 40,500. Do euro delivery and it's 35k. If you add on silly junk like nav, laser/radar cruise, active steering, sunshades, etc it'll get near 50k.... "
I just build it at BMW and I want the nav and etc and it is 45k. Also, where did you get the 35k euro delivery? Can I get the link to that? If you go to BMWUSA.com you only save $2,540 off MSRP... weird.(http://www.bmwusa.com/bmwexperience/EuropeanDelivery/savings.htm) And not many people are going to take a month off work, lose that income, buy a ticket and hotel to save 2-3k...
Also, I must say the nav is not bling bling... I don't know what I'd do without it. Anyone who has one that I know will never get a car without one now.
"Either driving dynamics are where it's at or it's not your thing...."
Agree, but nothing is OFFICIAL for the new IS. Let's all wait and see about the pricing and such. I'm tired of the people who want BMW to stay at the top forever and the people who crown a new King (IS350) before it even comes out.
just build it at BMW and I want the nav and etc and it is 45k. Also, where did you get the 35k euro delivery? Can I get the link to that? If you go to BMWUSA.com you only save $2,540 off MSRP... weird.
Got this from a guy on another site. It's the real deal. blue-guy.com/images/BimmerInvoice.pdf
Check out page 2. See the ED invoice price, that's the one to use. Then you tell the dealer they get $1k over that. Done. Pick your options.
And not many people are going to take a month off work, lose that income, buy a ticket and hotel to save 2-3k...
Why would you take a month off? I plan on flying out on a sunday (arrive monday morning) Pick up the car, drive it to the port, go to sleep and fly home the next morning. I'll be back at work Wednesday. If you can pick up on a Saturday, I'd fly out on a Friday and just miss one day of work.
Also, I must say the nav is not bling bling... I don't know what I'd do without it. Anyone who has one that I know will never get a car without one now.
it serves no useful purpose unless one is a mobile salesperson or a delivery boy. otherwise, a map or mapquest gets it done and all for free.
Agree, but nothing is OFFICIAL for the new IS. Let's all wait and see about the pricing and such. I'm tired of the people who want BMW to stay at the top forever and the people who crown a new King (IS350) before it even comes out.
I wanted a Lexus this time. They chased me away with their PR release and even worse their presentation at NYIAS.
The manual cars will have an emergency brake handle on the center console. There are several photos of a manual-equipped interior circulating on the Internet from the Geneva Auto Show showing this.
The first way is that it puts a rather healthy stake in the ground that manual transmissions are not really part of Lexus' future plans.
This vehicle is being billed as a sports sedan, which means, it MUST OFFER a manual. That it does so on it's weakest model revisits ANOTHER issue.
Lexus following Mercedes around like a lost puppy.
The reason I love Lexus is because Toyota/Lexus has shown creativity (RX, 1992 SC), quality, durability, luxurious interiors (even on trucks), ease of use, value, and a slow, steady growth in their car/SUVs options, styles, and capabilities.
My feeling was after they had established a foothold in the US, they would DIVERSIFY their product line, so ALL drivers could enjoy their offerings, and not have to settle for clumsy styling, poor quality, higher prices, or other flaws in competing makes.
This was my mistake.
So with this car Lexus seems more than content to pander to the weak drivers (the majority) who use our roads UNSAFELY while using cellphones, eating, applying make-up, etc.
Part of this is the cost of progress. But the inherent SOFTNESS of the new IS speaks to a deeper issue.
Lexus believes one of three things:
1. They can't compete with the 3/G35 manuals
2. They think the TXS/S40 is more important than the 3/G35 competition
3. They believe they've already lost the manual market through their bumbling of the last model.
Maybe their "Focus groups" told them a manual on the base is all they need.
These are probably the same groups that told Dodge a Neon only needs a 3-Speed Auto, or power windows in front. Or GM that the Aztek styling is adventurous and unique.
That the IS is, essentially, as TSX competitor definitely cheapens the car's appeal, and the brand as a whole. Since when is Acura a primary target for Lexus? Isn't that shoe on the other foot? Acura really doesn't like fighting Lexus toe-to-toe.
And the TSX isn't selling 60-70k anyway, so what is the point?
The very saddest part is this car, I believe, HAD IT!! It coulda been a contender!
Now look at it.
It will outsell the TSX easily, with a better loved name, a V6, and a great chassis and feature list, plus MUCH sexier styling.
But what is the point?
Sometimes when you win, you really lose.
BMW is stumbling around with it's styling and TECH issues. The G can definitely be vulnerable to a car with zestier style, a MUCH better interior, and the Lexus name.
What is the point of this car? Swing low?
I thought Lexus EXCEEDED the customers expectations?
"That the IS is, essentially, as TSX competitor definitely cheapens the car's appeal, and the brand as a whole"
Wrong. The new IS does NOT compete with the FWD TSX, rather against the 3. Both the 3 and the IS are RWD. That alone tells you the competition. Second, the 200+hp IS250 goes with the 215bhp 325i, while the 300+hp IS350 threatens to one-up BMW and its 255hp 330i. What does the TSX offer in that engine range ? Besides, the new IS pricing starts higher than the TSX, approaching the TL at the mid-30K range.
"The very saddest part is this car, I believe, HAD IT!! It coulda been a contender!"
But no one has driven the new IS yet, so how can it be dismissed so easily ? If you look at the wheel setup and the wide stance of the new IS, it should already fortell a better handling car than its predecessor. Even the current IS is not a bad handling car at all, so the new IS with the newer tranny and suspension and tire setup looks to be even better. So no need to pass judgement so early.
"I thought Lexus EXCEEDED the customers expectations?"
Who says not ? Exceeding expectations depends on the eye of the beholder. To those who want AWD, they get one. To those who want power, they get a 300+hp car. To those who want a bigger, nicer style, the new IS gives it. To those who want MANUAL tranny, they get one in the lower engined version. The biggest complaint is that the IS350 has a slushbox. Even without a MT, this car will sell a bunch more than the current IS300, and will truly compete against the new 3-. But it is early to tell for sure. Many die-hard MT-biased enthusiasts cannot see past this and are already declaring it DOA (dead-on-arrival). Who is to say that the new 3.5L motor will never have a MT ? We don't know this. Maybe it will, maybe it won't ! And we still have until October before the car shows up on dealer lots. Lots could happen....
"I vote for the G35 in this class"
Your choice. But I am gonna wait for the actual drive of the new IS before I decide which to get. And no G for me, pls... I'd rather buy a low-optioned M35 than the G35. Just me tho'.
Forget this manual tranny stuff. What will be more important IMO is that I hope the IS doesn't have the light and over-boosted handling feel of the GS. The two share a platform, so we'll have to wait and see.
Fortunately, the current IS has pretty good handling and feel. The problem with this car was its 1) lack of power, 2) crappy interior.
The IS250 doesn't address #1, but it does address #2.
"Second, the 200+hp IS250 goes with the 215bhp 325i"
Dont count on it. Not when you're looking around 8 seconds. Thats TSX (auto) territory. The S40 T5 is faster, and has more power. How the IS will fair depends a lot on the implementation of the VDIM system. If it's anything like the GS's, forget it. Game over.
LG: It's not all about HP is it ? The style, ergonomics, features and content, handling and performance, price, etc., will matter to buyers here. The fact that the new IS250 is a better styled car, has more standard features than the 325i, and will probably be at par handling-wise, at about the same price will help the IS lots. And if reliability is an issue to the buyer, guess who wins that part, eh? Ultimately, the IS will NOT dethrone the Bimmer sales-wise, but will eat some of its market share. If the IS sells 50K units combined annually, then Lexus would have succeeded. Then will come a coupe and vert version, and maybe a hi-po V8 variant or maybe a hybrid version. Who knows what the future foretells for the IS model line???
All I'm saying is, all of the "one day, the IS will have" is already in a lot of the competition, which will get freshened or replaced soon as well. There's a 300hp, AWD, sports sedan with a nice interior AND a manual transmission called the S60R. By the time the IS actually gets those things, there will be a new S60.
Just 'cus the 3 and IS share V6/RWD set-up, that doesn't mean the market will see the IS as a 325 competitor.
Price has a lot to do with who you are competing with. And Lexus took the low road. Considering it's approaching $5k less, with std. feature list more like a TSX than a 325, plus the same country of origin, I (and many others) will parallel the TSX than the vaunted 325, which the IS has proven it cannot, and apparently will not, compete directly against.
That the S40 and TSX have become prominent in this forum overstates my point. It sickens me!!
And regarding your other comments, yeah, lexus will sell right around 50k units. So what?
They won't be bringing in BMW buyers. They won't attract non-Lexus intenders. In fact, I say this may hurt the GS300 more than anyone else!
There are sales numbers, and there are DESIRED sales numbers.
Okay. Considering the fact that the percentage of people who actually buy a manual equipped car, even in this category, I don't think sales will be affected much and I think a few people are blowing the lacking a manual thing way out of proportion!
Ultimately the way it feels, drives, handles, and performs will matter to more people than whether or not it has a manual transmission. How many A4's are again probably sold with a manual? How about G35 sedans? I bet you even BMW 3-series manual sales are getting lower with each consecutive year.
To compare the TSX to the IS is a joke! huh...let's see FWD and basically a dressed up Accord with a 4-banger you gotta rev to 8000RPM to get any acceleration out of vs. a RWD, V6 powered sport sedan. Huh..no contest.
The IS250 will not beat a TSX manual unless we give it a 100m heat start. 8 seconds for a 6-cyl sorts sedan? Nyet.
Admit it, Lexus expects the mint julep set to buy their stuff. Go buy a BMW if you want a fast car AND have the local high schooler look at you as you drive past her.
The IS250 will not beat a TSX manual unless we give it a 100m heat start. 8 seconds for a 6-cyl sorts sedan? Nyet.
Admit it, Lexus expects the mint julep set to buy their stuff. Go buy a BMW if you want a fast car AND have the local high schooler look at you as you drive past her.
If you want an engine that makes a lot of noise, there are plenty faster cars under $30k. Why would the admiration of female high schooler matter, especially local ones? If you are saying that boyracers (the only ones to whom attention from female high schooler can lead to legally non-detrimental consequences, right??) won't like the IS, it's so much the better.
I'm mildly interested in the IS350, but $40k is way too much, when a G35X can be had for under $30k.
I would expect a retractable hardtop filling double duty as coupe and convertible, similar to the SC430. This will allow it to compete with cars such as the 330Ci and the SLK350 with just one model.
Max, the TSX can run 7.5 seconds with the stick. The fact that the IS250 will be slower with the automatic doesnt make it look particularly good considering the TSX is rev happy and has two less cylinders.
All out the TSX is quick. What about it around town driving? It's a dog. I've test driven a 6-speed and the thing can't get out of it's own way at even 3/4 throttle! That's the disadvantage of a tiny 4-banger with very little torque. Maybe this is the reason it's sales are kinda on the small side.
The IS250 with a manual maybe around the same 0-60 as the TSX manual, but geez at least the IS250 will be a pleasure to drive around town when you're not pushing the pedal to WOT.
To get anything out of the TSX, you gotta drive it like you stole it!
Also, how fast do you really think the BMW 325i is going to be? I bet it's 0-60 doesn't turn out to be less than the low 7-second range. Which means they IS250 may be a few tenth's off. Wow! big deal!
I hope the IS interior feels as good as it looks. After spending plenty of time inside the 330i on Thursday, the interior is one of the best that I've been in, in terms of BMWs. But its stark and plain, with no apparent ergonomic benefit compared to what the pics show for the IS. The electroluminescent instrumentation, gorgeous wood, stylish center stack... for me, make the IS's interior much more inviting than the 3's.
I have to agree that it is a BIG mistake for Lexus not to offer a proper manual tranny on 350. Not because a significant portion of buyers will be looking for it, but because it is crucial nonetheless in competiting with Germans and making conquest sales.
In short, without a manual tranny, IS will not be able to do well on magazine comparos, and that is actually important for an underdog like IS to compete with the Germans.
In order to make conquest sales, you will have to provide a GOOD reason to switch from 3-series. Now of course some people do no research before they go out and spend 40K on a car. But you won't be able to bring these people down to Lexus dealership anyway. They are looking for a status symbol, and at this point Bimmer does a better job hands down. They will never buy an underdog, since they just follow the sterotype.
But then you have people that actually do research and read magazines before they go testdrive. These are the people that Lexus can steal from Bimmer and MB, if IS can get good enough publicity. But will it?
I foresee all the major magazines bitching about not offering a manual on an otherwise competent car. Unless you are pre-determined to buy a lexus and try to "read between the lines" to justify your choice, all that bitching and losing the comparos will turn lots of people away from lexus, even if they are in fact looking for an AUTO tranny car. If an underdog can't pull an upset, it will forever be an underdog.
Why Toyota couldn't just throw in a nice 6-spd tranny, I don't know. It seems to me like a big enough of a company to take that much R&D, but I guess not.
The whole manual tranny thing is blown way out of proportion. Manual 0-60 is a marketting gimmick. How many dump-clutch starts can you have before you shred the clutch? Much more of practical value is automatic 5-60 running start. Of course, for the boyracers, bragging rights associated with 0-60 dump-clutch is an important marketting point, even though precious few of them can actually shift faster than a modern automatic transmission; i.e. for most 5-60 running starts, automatics are faster than manuals anyway.
Except when a torque converter is killing all of the engines power. Try any 4-cylinder and you wont have to dump the clutch to be faster to 60 with the stick.
Neither of the IS models destined for the US market is a 4-cylinder. The turbo 4-cyl in my Saab9-5 does fine with the automatic transmission, so long as it is in sport mode (higher shifting points, and starts in first gear instead of second; ironicly, second-gear gentle starts used to be a mark for luxury cars when MB invented it on the 300 series). Most normally aspirited 4-cyl just lack low-end torque. That's all.
I have to say that it is a BIG mistake for Lexus not to offer a proper manual tranny on 350. Not because a significant portion of buyers will be looking for it, but because it is crucial nonetheless in competiting with Germans and making conquest sales.
In short, without a manual tranny, IS will not be able to make a statement as a serious sports sedan, and do well on magazine comparos. That is actually important for an underdog like IS to compete with the Germans.
In order to make conquest sales, you will have to provide a GOOD reason to switch from 3-series. Now of course some people never read these mags and do no research before they go out and spend 40K on a car. But you won't be able to bring these people down to Lexus dealership anyway. They are looking for a status symbol, and at this point Bimmer does a better job hands down. They will never buy an underdog, since they just follow the public opinion, not lead one.
But then you have people that actually do research and read magazines before they go testdrive. These are the people that Lexus could steal from Bimmer and MB, if IS can get good enough publicity. But will it?
I foresee all the major magazines bitching about not offering a manual on an otherwise competent car. Unless you are pre-determined to buy a lexus and try to "read between the lines" to justify your choice, all that bitching and losing the comparos will turn lots of people away from lexus, even if they are in fact looking for an AUTO tranny car. If an underdog can't pull an upset, it will forever be an underdog.
Why Toyota couldn't just throw in a nice 6-spd tranny, is beyond me. Toyota's utilitarian view of the automobile might be very profitable, but they had to play a different game if they wanted to talk about "passion".
Comments
Maybe they can ADD the IS300 to the lineup by Fall 2006, not replace the 2.5L, since it may be too soon to be replacing the 2.5L after only 1-yr. That would make the most sense: a 204-208hp IS250, a 250hp IS300, and a 310hp IS350. That would be awesome providing a range of engine and pricing choices for the consumer.
Fall of 2006, everything starts to coalesce together, with the release of the LS460 (340+hp), the GS460 (340+hp), and the GS350 (300+hp), maybe even throw in a manual IS350 into the mix, eh ! Of course, let's not forget the GS450h (330+hp) coming out this year. That gives buyers so many choices.... IMHO, this is too much going on and may detract from the key launch among these, which is the 2007 LS. But we'll see if they can pull it off.
~alpha
Do you think they would have THREE different engines for the same model? I got the impression the 2.5 is an engine shared with Europe, while the 3.5 is not, and neither would the 3.0 be. So they are achieving savings through economies of scale for now by sharing the 2.5 between the European and American markets, and later they would just leave the 2.5 to be Euro-only.
But keeping the 2.5 as the base engine and having three engines would be a good way for them to hold the line on price and keep a very affordable base model.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Junk is a strong word! But since you used it, imo the BMW 330i is junk without manual. In fact any car is junk without manual.
It is truly tragic that the IS350 has no clutch pedal. But this tragedy extends to German marques also. MB, Audi A4/A6(6 cyl. has no manuual) and VW Passat(6 cyl.).
Oh and may I add BMW! Unlike the current generation x5 3.0, the new and upcoming X5 will not have manual!
This no manual phenomena is not only prevalent among Lexus vehicles.
M
You are correct about MB.
As I said before, every year, less and less people want a clutch pedal, therefore manufacturer's make less and less. And the few people that want it get screwed due to the high developmental costs related to building a manual transmission that will be a niche product.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7128017/
AAA says BMW Z4 only gets 14.5 when it states 21/29. And from my experience with rental cars (I travel for work 2-3 times a month. Euro/USA) I'd have to agree. But don't take my work I'm sure AAA carries a bit more weight. ;^)
So most of the alloments of the 2006 330i will probably be loaded with options? At least out here (CA). Or maybe these are leftover inventory of discontinued models and not representative of the typical inventory when the cars are in mid-production?
Can you easily custom order with just the options you want?
It's more the EPA's fault for not changing their testing methods to keep up with how driving habits have changed over the last few decades.
It's traffic. By 7:30-8 AM, sometimes earlier, it's virtually stop and go traffic.
It doesn't ease up that much during non-commute hours either or the weekends. Once we had a power outage on a Friday for like 10 hours and you had crawling traffic. Took an hour to traverse 2-3 miles.
I know traffic is bad everywhere. So where are people opening up on these fast cars and have to downshift to take curves at optimal speeds?
Only people (at least round here) who drive daily on winding mountain roads with curves rather than 90-degree corners are those living in multimillion-dollar compounds. And those people are shopping in an entirely different market segment than entry-level luxury sports sedans. That is if they still drive themselves.
It's more the EPA's fault for not changing their testing methods to keep up with how driving habits have changed over the last few decades."
RE:
Totally agree with you man. I'm just trying to inform people. But how come my TL gets the mileage right? And my past Japanese cars got it right. My guess, and it's just a guess is Euro/US cars are tuning for EPA while the Japanese cars actually have really good all around mileage.
I would choose not to drive any other way than with a stick!
It is truly tragic that the IS350 has no clutch pedal. But this tragedy extends to German marques also. MB, Audi A4/A6(6 cyl. has no manuual) and VW Passat(6 cyl.).
I concur!
Oh and may I add BMW! Unlike the current generation x5 3.0, the new and upcoming X5 will not have manual!
Suv (or their marketing bull SAV), goes without saying it's useless. A tall station wagon. Had the X3 for 3 days and it was miserable for me - even with the 3.0 and a 6MT I hated that thing.
Preaching to the choir.
Maybe it's just you!
I don't know what to say. With my Accord EXV6(EPA 20/28 rating) I average about 19. ANd worse I have never come close to 28 on the highway, even driving at a steady 70MPH with the cruise on! The most I have gotten on a long trim with 95%+ highway is 25-26MPG. Even alot of people with the last generation Accord V6 complain about what they get. Most get about what I get on the highway.
Meanwhile, my uncle's 2000 LS400 easily beats its EPA figures(19/25) on the highway. On trips driving at 75-80MPH average speeds I have gotten 27-28MPG but in around town driving it only gets about 17-18MPG. And on long trips his ES300 matches EPA estimates of 28 highway but dips down to 18 or so in around town driving.
Alot of that article may depend on driving habits. Maybe BMW Z drivers have lead foots!
Lets see, in 05 moonroof is standard and MANY enthusiasts are mad about that as many BMW buyers don't want a roof as it hurts the car's structural integrity. Xenon is standard on the 330i in 06. Power seats are too.
Automatic should be an option as that's antithetical to being the ultimate driving machine.
Anyway, if you build the 330i to have all that, it comes to 45k
With leather, moon, xenon and metallic paint the car is 40,500. Do euro delivery and it's 35k. If you add on silly junk like nav, laser/radar cruise, active steering, sunshades, etc it'll get near 50k.
... of course getting the nav means you'll get a cd-changer in the glove-box... what's that about? Even a Nissan can handle a nav and still keep the dash cd-changer. And the i-drive system... don't get me started. And do you know why they offer 4-years maintenance??? Have you seen the cost-to-own/reliability after the 4 year mark??? And if they are taking care of the car for the first 4 years, how the heck does it still manager to be so un-reliable??? Just check out consumer reports or have you seen the la-times lately. BMW was in the BOTTOM 5 for reliability. I'm not a fan of the IS350, it's not even out yet. I'm just saying BMW has lost the edge... but people still want to make it out to be the best damn cars on the planet.
Navi= 2k for a device that's got less than $200 in parts and software? Major ripoff. And totally for the bling, bling.
1. We know the IS250 will start at 30k (Lexus's guy at the presentation at nyias clearly said the base is300 would be the starting point for the IS250).
2. Running from that knowledge AND the fact that xenon is not standard on the IS350 (look at the toyota PR info and you'll see the IS350 has a laundry list of extra features) it's pretty safe to assume an IS350 with xenon and sports package (another option), the price tag for an IS350 would have to creep up to at least 35,000 (2k in options). Yeah, I'm being generous saying the IS250-IS350 gulf is only going to be 3k. If we believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
As for lost the edge, it's in the drive. Either driving dynamics are where it's at or it's not your thing. To each his own. A car with an automatic has lousy driving dynamics, IMHO. Lexus basically flipped off the enthusiast crowd with their decision. They told current manual owners of Infiniti g35ss, TLs and 3 series cars: We don't want you as a buyer.
I would very possibly end up in an IS350 if it had a manual. It'd get a drive and it just has to match the road feel of a BMW to win me over. Just match it. I'm not asking for the IS to clobber the 330i. I simply want something on par with a 3 and I'll gladly walk away from BMW. I'd rather not own a car that makes me wince when I hear a sound or one that I fear owning outside of warranty. But Lexus made the decision for me...
Seriously? I always thought honda got great mileage. Weird. Around town I shift at 4.5k-6k in my 3 and still get 22mpg. On the freeway I tend to get over 30. On a trip back from Vegas (300+ miles) I averaged 100 mpg and netted 31 mpg. Even running out to Vegas at times above 130 I still got 26 mpg. Shrug.
Alot of that article may depend on driving habits. Maybe BMW Z drivers have lead foots!
I do and I wouldn't complain about my mileage.
That's not representative of anything really as the e46 330i has a 4200 incentive on it. Figure out the cost of the car at invoice +400, then subtract that incentive.
So most of the alloments of the 2006 330i will probably be loaded with options? At least out here (CA)
Most likely. If you buy off the lot, you deserve to get ripped off. Lots of all makes load up the cars with massive amounts of junk. I imagine the e90s will have radar cruise and active steering and all manner of junk that just add to the bottom line.
Can you easily custom order with just the options you want?
Walk into any dealership and tell the manager you want to do ED. They will love you for it. Why? They make profit and it doesn't count against their allotment. If they were to get 500 cars in 06, they still will, plus they'll have profit from doing an ED on your car.
Order for delviery to the dealer and they become wary if you order a stripper.
Actually BMW heard the outcry and made the change. They've also said the next gen M3 will have both the silly SMG and a real tranny.
How have I come to this conclusion?
Taking a look at the pictures, the IS has no emergency brake lever on the center console. It's got that stupidy foot brake under the left of the dash!
Now as far as I know, manual equipped cars always have the hand operated emergency brake on the center console. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.
Doesn't matter to me that much but to the hard core manual fans out there...death to Lexus!
As long as it's got nice room(better than the IS300) front and back, good gas mileage, and handling like the outgoing IS300, and Lexus quality/reliability, I'm probably in line to buy one.
I'm glad to see they are getting or will get more standard features. ;^)
"Automatic should be an option as that's antithetical to being the ultimate driving machine. "
Most BMW in the states are auto/leather and you can ONLY get them with auto/leather without special order. It is after all a lux-car. IMO auto should be a NO-COST option. Just like Acura/Lexus etc.
"With leather, moon, xenon and metallic paint the car is 40,500. Do euro delivery and it's 35k. If you add on silly junk like nav, laser/radar cruise, active steering, sunshades, etc it'll get near 50k.... "
I just build it at BMW and I want the nav and etc and it is 45k. Also, where did you get the 35k euro delivery? Can I get the link to that? If you go to BMWUSA.com you only save $2,540 off MSRP... weird.(http://www.bmwusa.com/bmwexperience/EuropeanDelivery/savings.htm) And not many people are going to take a month off work, lose that income, buy a ticket and hotel to save 2-3k...
Also, I must say the nav is not bling bling... I don't know what I'd do without it. Anyone who has one that I know will never get a car without one now.
"Either driving dynamics are where it's at or it's not your thing...."
Agree, but nothing is OFFICIAL for the new IS. Let's all wait and see about the pricing and such. I'm tired of the people who want BMW to stay at the top forever and the people who crown a new King (IS350) before it even comes out.
Peace-out!
Got this from a guy on another site. It's the real deal. blue-guy.com/images/BimmerInvoice.pdf
Check out page 2. See the ED invoice price, that's the one to use. Then you tell the dealer they get $1k over that. Done. Pick your options.
And not many people are going to take a month off work, lose that income, buy a ticket and hotel to save 2-3k...
Why would you take a month off? I plan on flying out on a sunday (arrive monday morning) Pick up the car, drive it to the port, go to sleep and fly home the next morning. I'll be back at work Wednesday. If you can pick up on a Saturday, I'd fly out on a Friday and just miss one day of work.
Also, I must say the nav is not bling bling... I don't know what I'd do without it. Anyone who has one that I know will never get a car without one now.
it serves no useful purpose unless one is a mobile salesperson or a delivery boy. otherwise, a map or mapquest gets it done and all for free.
Agree, but nothing is OFFICIAL for the new IS. Let's all wait and see about the pricing and such. I'm tired of the people who want BMW to stay at the top forever and the people who crown a new King (IS350) before it even comes out.
I wanted a Lexus this time. They chased me away with their PR release and even worse their presentation at NYIAS.
The 2006 IS hurts Lexus in many ways.
The first way is that it puts a rather healthy stake in the ground that manual transmissions are not really part of Lexus' future plans.
This vehicle is being billed as a sports sedan, which means, it MUST OFFER a manual. That it does so on it's weakest model revisits ANOTHER issue.
Lexus following Mercedes around like a lost puppy.
The reason I love Lexus is because Toyota/Lexus has shown creativity (RX, 1992 SC), quality, durability, luxurious interiors (even on trucks), ease of use, value, and a slow, steady growth in their car/SUVs options, styles, and capabilities.
My feeling was after they had established a foothold in the US, they would DIVERSIFY their product line, so ALL drivers could enjoy their offerings, and not have to settle for clumsy styling, poor quality, higher prices, or other flaws in competing makes.
This was my mistake.
So with this car Lexus seems more than content to pander to the weak drivers (the majority) who use our roads UNSAFELY while using cellphones, eating, applying make-up, etc.
Part of this is the cost of progress. But the inherent SOFTNESS of the new IS speaks to a deeper issue.
Lexus believes one of three things:
1. They can't compete with the 3/G35 manuals
2. They think the TXS/S40 is more important than the 3/G35 competition
3. They believe they've already lost the manual market through their bumbling of the last model.
Maybe their "Focus groups" told them a manual on the base is all they need.
These are probably the same groups that told Dodge a Neon only needs a 3-Speed Auto, or power windows in front. Or GM that the Aztek styling is adventurous and unique.
That the IS is, essentially, as TSX competitor definitely cheapens the car's appeal, and the brand as a whole. Since when is Acura a primary target for Lexus? Isn't that shoe on the other foot? Acura really doesn't like fighting Lexus toe-to-toe.
And the TSX isn't selling 60-70k anyway, so what is the point?
The very saddest part is this car, I believe, HAD IT!! It coulda been a contender!
Now look at it.
It will outsell the TSX easily, with a better loved name, a V6, and a great chassis and feature list, plus MUCH sexier styling.
But what is the point?
Sometimes when you win, you really lose.
BMW is stumbling around with it's styling and TECH issues. The G can definitely be vulnerable to a car with zestier style, a MUCH better interior, and the Lexus name.
What is the point of this car? Swing low?
I thought Lexus EXCEEDED the customers expectations?
That assumes they know what the customer wants.
It all adds up to a cruel tease by Lexus.
I vote for the G35 in this class.
I love the RX and LS, but this car doesn't exist.
DrFill
Wrong. The new IS does NOT compete with the FWD TSX, rather against the 3. Both the 3 and the IS are RWD. That alone tells you the competition. Second, the 200+hp IS250 goes with the 215bhp 325i, while the 300+hp IS350 threatens to one-up BMW and its 255hp 330i. What does the TSX offer in that engine range ? Besides, the new IS pricing starts higher than the TSX, approaching the TL at the mid-30K range.
"The very saddest part is this car, I believe, HAD IT!! It coulda been a contender!"
But no one has driven the new IS yet, so how can it be dismissed so easily ? If you look at the wheel setup and the wide stance of the new IS, it should already fortell a better handling car than its predecessor. Even the current IS is not a bad handling car at all, so the new IS with the newer tranny and suspension and tire setup looks to be even better. So no need to pass judgement so early.
"I thought Lexus EXCEEDED the customers expectations?"
Who says not ? Exceeding expectations depends on the eye of the beholder. To those who want AWD, they get one. To those who want power, they get a 300+hp car. To those who want a bigger, nicer style, the new IS gives it. To those who want MANUAL tranny, they get one in the lower engined version. The biggest complaint is that the IS350 has a slushbox. Even without a MT, this car will sell a bunch more than the current IS300, and will truly compete against the new 3-. But it is early to tell for sure. Many die-hard MT-biased enthusiasts cannot see past this and are already declaring it DOA (dead-on-arrival). Who is to say that the new 3.5L motor will never have a MT ? We don't know this. Maybe it will, maybe it won't ! And we still have until October before the car shows up on dealer lots. Lots could happen....
"I vote for the G35 in this class"
Your choice. But I am gonna wait for the actual drive of the new IS before I decide which to get. And no G for me, pls... I'd rather buy a low-optioned M35 than the G35. Just me tho'.
Fortunately, the current IS has pretty good handling and feel. The problem with this car was its 1) lack of power, 2) crappy interior.
The IS250 doesn't address #1, but it does address #2.
Dont count on it. Not when you're looking around 8 seconds. Thats TSX (auto) territory. The S40 T5 is faster, and has more power. How the IS will fair depends a lot on the implementation of the VDIM system. If it's anything like the GS's, forget it. Game over.
Just 'cus the 3 and IS share V6/RWD set-up, that doesn't mean the market will see the IS as a 325 competitor.
Price has a lot to do with who you are competing with. And Lexus took the low road. Considering it's approaching $5k less, with std. feature list more like a TSX than a 325, plus the same country of origin, I (and many others) will parallel the TSX than the vaunted 325, which the IS has proven it cannot, and apparently will not, compete directly against.
That the S40 and TSX have become prominent in this forum overstates my point. It sickens me!!
And regarding your other comments, yeah, lexus will sell right around 50k units. So what?
They won't be bringing in BMW buyers. They won't attract non-Lexus intenders. In fact, I say this may hurt the GS300 more than anyone else!
There are sales numbers, and there are DESIRED sales numbers.
Their spinning their wheels with this car.
DrFill`
Ultimately the way it feels, drives, handles, and performs will matter to more people than whether or not it has a manual transmission. How many A4's are again probably sold with a manual? How about G35 sedans? I bet you even BMW 3-series manual sales are getting lower with each consecutive year.
To compare the TSX to the IS is a joke! huh...let's see FWD and basically a dressed up Accord with a 4-banger you gotta rev to 8000RPM to get any acceleration out of vs. a RWD, V6 powered sport sedan. Huh..no contest.
You act as if 100% of BMW drivers own a manual equipped 3-series.
This IS will be much more popular than the last one and the conquest sales aren't going to come mainly from the GS300 or Acura TSX.
Admit it, Lexus expects the mint julep set to buy their stuff. Go buy a BMW if you want a fast car AND have the local high schooler look at you as you drive past her.
Admit it, Lexus expects the mint julep set to buy their stuff. Go buy a BMW if you want a fast car AND have the local high schooler look at you as you drive past her.
If you want an engine that makes a lot of noise, there are plenty faster cars under $30k. Why would the admiration of female high schooler matter, especially local ones? If you are saying that boyracers (the only ones to whom attention from female high schooler can lead to legally non-detrimental consequences, right??) won't like the IS, it's so much the better.
I'm mildly interested in the IS350, but $40k is way too much, when a G35X can be had for under $30k.
Front view
Side frame stance
The rear highlighting the phat tires on this car:
And finally, the rich interior appointments on this car is just stunning....
The rear reminds me of a classy RX8, the interior has themes of TL
Max, the TSX can run 7.5 seconds with the stick. The fact that the IS250 will be slower with the automatic doesnt make it look particularly good considering the TSX is rev happy and has two less cylinders.
The IS250 with a manual maybe around the same 0-60 as the TSX manual, but geez at least the IS250 will be a pleasure to drive around town when you're not pushing the pedal to WOT.
To get anything out of the TSX, you gotta drive it like you stole it!
Also, how fast do you really think the BMW 325i is going to be? I bet it's 0-60 doesn't turn out to be less than the low 7-second range. Which means they IS250 may be a few tenth's off. Wow! big deal!
~alpha
In short, without a manual tranny, IS will not be able to do well on magazine comparos, and that is actually important for an underdog like IS to compete with the Germans.
In order to make conquest sales, you will have to provide a GOOD reason to switch from 3-series. Now of course some people do no research before they go out and spend 40K on a car. But you won't be able to bring these people down to Lexus dealership anyway. They are looking for a status symbol, and at this point Bimmer does a better job hands down. They will never buy an underdog, since they just follow the sterotype.
But then you have people that actually do research and read magazines before they go testdrive. These are the people that Lexus can steal from Bimmer and MB, if IS can get good enough publicity. But will it?
I foresee all the major magazines bitching about not offering a manual on an otherwise competent car. Unless you are pre-determined to buy a lexus and try to "read between the lines" to justify your choice, all that bitching and losing the comparos will turn lots of people away from lexus, even if they are in fact looking for an AUTO tranny car. If an underdog can't pull an upset, it will forever be an underdog.
Why Toyota couldn't just throw in a nice 6-spd tranny, I don't know. It seems to me like a big enough of a company to take that much R&D, but I guess not.
In short, without a manual tranny, IS will not be able to make a statement as a serious sports sedan, and do well on magazine comparos. That is actually important for an underdog like IS to compete with the Germans.
In order to make conquest sales, you will have to provide a GOOD reason to switch from 3-series. Now of course some people never read these mags and do no research before they go out and spend 40K on a car. But you won't be able to bring these people down to Lexus dealership anyway. They are looking for a status symbol, and at this point Bimmer does a better job hands down. They will never buy an underdog, since they just follow the public opinion, not lead one.
But then you have people that actually do research and read magazines before they go testdrive. These are the people that Lexus could steal from Bimmer and MB, if IS can get good enough publicity. But will it?
I foresee all the major magazines bitching about not offering a manual on an otherwise competent car. Unless you are pre-determined to buy a lexus and try to "read between the lines" to justify your choice, all that bitching and losing the comparos will turn lots of people away from lexus, even if they are in fact looking for an AUTO tranny car. If an underdog can't pull an upset, it will forever be an underdog.
Why Toyota couldn't just throw in a nice 6-spd tranny, is beyond me. Toyota's utilitarian view of the automobile might be very profitable, but they had to play a different game if they wanted to talk about "passion".