There's an enormous difference between an SMG style paddle shifter in a formula 1 car and an automatic transmission in a lexus. No clutch in the lexus. instead a sexy torque converter.
"Not to have xenon lights? You're kidding, right?"
No, not kidding. I understand they offer much brighter illumination. They are also (a) very expensive to replace if they burn out or a rock bounces up and breaks one, (b) a high theft risk, and (c) most importantly, a dangerous blinding risk to oncoming drivers, not to mention a huge distraction and annoyance to the people you follow, because they are so bright.
For equipment comparisons with the 330i, we might want to wait until a full spec sheet is available for both. We just might find that there are things that are standard on the IS that are not on the BMW (which is in my experience fairly common for BMW - extra charge for metallic paint? C'mon, I mean really!). And if the IS350 beats the 330i to 60 by only 3/4 of a second, that is still a meaningful acceleration advantage.
The biggest downside I can see from what they have announced is that the 350 is auto-only, which of course means I won't be getting one! But then, the 250 is perhaps more my style anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
for both. We just might find that there are things that are standard on the IS that are not on the BMW (which is in my experience fairly common for BMW - extra charge for metallic paint? C'mon, I mean really!). And if the IS350 beats the 330i to 60 by only 3/4 of a second, that is still a meaningful acceleration advantage.
Where do you get 3/4 of a second? BMW, notorious for being conservative with figures, has the 330i with only 258 hp hitting 60 in 6.1 seconds. Lexus says upper 5s for the 300+hp IS350. That's to be generous, 5.7 seconds. That's not even half a second.
Beyond that, history shows Lexus misled everybody about the IS300's acceleration times. On the other hand BMW often states slower times - like the ZHP's 5.9 and mags get better acceleration C&D rang up 5.6 seconds with the car.
But of course, the 330i is working with 50 fewer lb-ft of torque and 50 fewer horses. So once again, what is Lexus doing with all their power?
As for your other remarks about xenon, uh okay. theft risk? lol. blinding other drivers? no, whiners complaining like they did when we went to halogen. blinding people from behind, uh, nope, not in a car with self-leveling xenons. keep trying...
say what you like about the xenon thing, and let's agree to disagree. I personally won't be doing that to other drivers any time soon.
As for the speed thing, well I guess we will have to wait and see. You DO agree though that it is an almost certainty that the IS will be faster? It seems you concede that in your remarks, here
"That's to be generous, 5.7 seconds. That's not even half a second."
among others. Beyond that, why are we debating? Many mags already had the IS300 beating the 3-series in straight-line acceleration, and the criticisms they had dealt with harsh handling and the slightly weird looks both in and out. So the question really becomes whether or not those "issues" have been resolved in the new model. I think the new look is great, and prefer it to the new 3-series. As for the handling, we will have to wait until it is possible to compare them back to back, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I could not care less about the appearance of either car. Both are dowdy, bland and not to my liking. I'm not buying the car for how it looks.
The handling is heavily influenced by the transmission, so having an auto only will hinder the car. My version of hell includes driving cars with automatics.
The straight-line acceleration numbers actually aren't proven. As I pointed out, Lexus flat out lied about the IS300. I don't trust their numbers on the IS350. regardless, it could be 2 seconds faster to 60, but it's an automatic and therefore not a car worth owning.
I think I missed it: IS250 will not have a clutch, i will be automatically actuated??? This is ridiculous... I want a full manual transmission with a clutch and all: this piece of junk could not be at the same level as a 3-series if it doesn't offer a full manual. I guess Lexus wants to cater its last remaining sporting machine to the big fat bozos who could care less about what makes it a sport sedan. I can now truly sat that I will not even consider this new IS.
Sorry I'm late. Moving my operations from Florida to Texas.
SHOCKED!!
What a bonehead move by Lexus! Never saw it coming. Making the same mistake twice! While losing power? This is a dark, dark day in Lexus history. Probably the darkest!!
I feel embarassed, ashamed, disrespected.
What's the point!! What is the point.
I will write Lexus, and let them know what I think of their new model, and old philosophy to pander to the cellphone-users of the world.
I'd write more, but I can't hold my head up, at least long enough to type my complete thoughts.
You can configure a 330i there. I did a simple metallic paint, sport package - 39k. It's got the other things i want in the 330i standard now (xenon, moon). Euro delivery should bring it in for 36-37k.
I spent a good portion of my life waiting for this IS announcement. AND IS THAT IT??
And not even a damned future crossover to soothe my nerves.
Guten Tag BMW 3 Series
Sayonara Lexus IS :0(
G35 looks real compelling compared to the IS offerings. A manual G35 vs. the IS350---I think the choice is clear. Comparing a manual BMW 330 vs. the IS350---in this case the clairity is almost blinding!
How fast is the G35 6MT? Its got 300 horses, and I dont think it can even crack 6 flat, can it? Havent BMWs always been faster than their hp numbers would suggest? This isnt really anything new.
4 hours since the press release and judgment has officially been passed! :-)
blue guy: "My version of hell includes driving cars with automatics....regardless, it could be 2 seconds faster to 60, but it's an automatic and therefore not a car worth owning."
Now here I can safely say I am in whole-hearted agreement.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I can say it again that Lexus lost us for good. BMW 3-series and G35 are the only options we now have in the real world of serious sport sedans with manual transmissions. Let old farts and secretaries drive the stupid SMT. Oh, I cannot overcome this feeling of betrayal! And we waited all this time for this P.O.S.?? Styling my [non-permissible content removed], it can look like a Ferrari, but no manual=no sale.
So many people willing to lynch Lexus and this new vehicle without even having seen it in person, or driven it.
Yes, it would be good for marketing purposes if an MT was available with the 3.5L version. But its not, and you know what? I dont think its going to be that big a deal for most people interested in a Lexus in the first place. The 3.5L will produce more than enough power to compete with the big boys, and the simple fact is that most vehicles are sold with automatics.
After reading the Press Release, I was a bit surprised at the IS250's acceleration times- seemed on the slower side... but time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the mags can do. For Pete's sake, the 130 horse 5M Corolla is timed by Car and Driver at 8.2 to 60, I struggle to believe that a time of "high 7s" will be all that a 6M 200+ hp IS will manage.
On a personal level, I much prefer the styling of this car inside and out to the new 3. Driving dynamics will be key, as will the actual pricing- and obviously, today's unveiling did little to make concrete any numbers.
For people like myself, just starting in the workplace (single, 23, decent income, no mortgages) cars like the Acura TSX, smaller engined 3 series, and now this Lexus IS250 are very appealing, and I for one would love the good power, high efficieny of the 2.5L 6M combo...
Bottom line, I suppose- I dont think this vehicle is nearly the disaster that so many here do.
Hopefully, I will have a better impression of the BMW 3 after attending tomorrow's Road Show- is anyone from this thread also attending the '3 Across America' event in Chelsea?
Read the future magazine reviews. Read the latest posts. Look at the disappointed faces at Lexus dealerships when customers find out that a pedal clutch is not an option. The desire for a stick is not subtle!
I actually agree with most of the posts. Just about all of the competition offers you the option to "row your own". After being slammed so hard the last time around in the press, I am disappointed, though not really surprised, that the 350 wont get a stick.
So many people willing to lynch Lexus and this new vehicle without even having seen it in person, or driven it.
Yes, it would be good for marketing purposes if an MT was available with the 3.5L version. But its not, and you know what? I dont think its going to be that big a deal for most people interested in a Lexus in the first place.
Ah but to those of us who want a manual sports sedan, the car is now worthless. No matter how it looks, no matter how it drives (though the handling won't be nearly as much fun without a manual anyway).
After reading the Press Release, I was a bit surprised at the IS250's acceleration times- seemed on the slower side... but time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the mags can do. For Pete's sake, the 130 horse 5M Corolla is timed by Car and Driver at 8.2 to 60, I struggle to believe that a time of "high 7s" will be all that a 6M 200+ hp IS will manage.
Why? It's a 3400-3600 lb car - that's a good deal more weight than a corolla. Also the last gen IS300 with 220 hp couldn't run to 60 in under 7-7.5 seconds, so why would a heavier car with less power and torque do it faster?
Well, I'm a bit disappointed as well, and I am not in the 6mt-at-all-costs camp. I want an AWD auto. While I like a stick, learned on one, and all our cars had them for many years (I am not 23 :-), it just doesn't work for my life and usage. I also actually don't care about 300+ hp - can't use it mostly, and want better mileage.
But, with the likely weight, 200hp, and an auto, I think I will find it sluggish, as I did an auto TSX, which was otherwise a car I liked. Perhaps the better torque ratings over that car will save it (184 vs 161 or so). Certainly a 325 auto felt fine to me, and it had less HP.
Going to the NY auto show next week - may have a revised opinion then. Probably will drive one when they finally come out, but I am not as pleased about this car as I hoped I would be.
For what was to be a "class leader/beater" I don't see it. Tim
My only comment is...Is this all the information we are getting from New York? The only thing I think we learned was the transmissions; and that may not even be 100% accurate. They could after all release a 350 with manaul in October. Didn't we already know the 250 was 200+/180+ meaning 204/184? The Auto Show should go on for several days, will there be any more information?
"Why? It's a 3400-3600 lb car - that's a good deal more weight than a corolla. Also the last gen IS300 with 220 hp couldn't run to 60 in under 7-7.5 seconds, so why would a heavier car with less power and torque do it faster? "
First, the 1st generation IS300 had 215bhp. Second, the new engines have dual VVTi and therefore should have better power curves and the engines should be more responsive. Third, the current IS300 is a dog. I've mentioned this before, the last generation GS300 with the same engine(+10bhp) did 0-60 in basically the same time as the IS300 with the same automatic transmission but with 200+ less pounds to lug around. Not to mention the IS300 had I think worse gas mileage numbers.
Plus, the new IS250 gets both 6-speeds which should improve acceleration.
Let's not compare the new IS250 to the current IS300. The IS300's straight line performance as well as gas mileage are a total mystery!
Have you driven IS300 manual? The straight line performance is pretty good, a lot better than BMW 325.
Pretty good as compared to a 325i? Wow, how impressive, besting a car that's sporting an engine half a liter smaller and with 30 fewer hp.
Not sure if that's applause worthy.
I've driven both the manual and auto versions of the IS300. There's a reason it sold in such paltry numbers Lexus feels the new one will do 600% better...
I saw the new IS at the Detroit auto show - it is a very, very attractive car IMO.
However, the news today is indeed disappointing. I currently have a 6 speed TSX, and from available info., what does the Lexus do to justofy its premium over this car. RWD is better for many people who want a real sports car, but where I live we get a fair amount of snow, so I like FWD.
Lexus could have given the Euros (BMW) a real run for their money, but autos won't do it. The lame argumnt that 'most people buy autos' doesn't wash, since most people have no choice but to buy autos.
I also suspect price is going to be 2-4K higher than most people expect owing to depreciation of the US$. Mind you, this pressure als oaffects BMW.
I still can't get over the fact that Lexus didn't put a stick in the IS. Almost every other car in this segment has one. The G35. The 3-Series. The TSX.
I'm reading through the posts but I don't see any clear hp figures for the IS350? No stick? I can't believe Lexus would do that after what happened to the last IS300 during its first year on the market. Very curious decision to say the least. Here is where all the bragging about Toyota's money comes into play - they should have spent some of it. If for no other reason to impress the writers who'll no doubt put the new 330i over the IS350 for that singular reason. Just like with the GS they seem to put all the emphasis on one model and not both. One either has the superior engine control system tied in with everything else and the other doesn't. One has optional awd the other one doesn't. One has a manual the other doesn't.
I also suspect price is going to be 2-4K higher than most people expect owing to depreciation of the US$. Mind you, this pressure als oaffects BMW.
they're biting the bullet. an 06 330i comparably equipped to my 2003 330i costs 3k less msrp. actually, the new ones have more standard features I don't have. so it's an even bigger gulf. The e90 330i is actually a screaming bargain compared to the e46.
I figure a 330i, equipped as I want it will cost me 36k-36.5k on european delivery. That's using BMW's conservative ED program too, not the more aggressive one.
But... my take on this news is that Lexus is moving more towards what I'm looking for, and that what I'm looking for (AWD, better gas mileage, hopefully more ground clearance to get over snowdrifts) is arguably more "mainstream" than most of the folks posting here, and to improve IS sales number Toyota definitely has to move more mainstream. If Toyota sells some of you good folks an IS, they'd be taking sales away from the G35 and 330i (35K plus price range) which is good, but if they sell me an IS they are tapping the probably much larger A4 1.8T, 325xi, Legacy GT and WRX/9-2x market (25-33K).
Sure I'd prefer a manual AND AWD but that's not a dealbreaker for me, where no AWD is an absolute dealbreaker. To my way of thinking the 350 ought to be AWD if anything; that's a lot of torque for only two wheels... what I'd like to know is what kind of AWD system it is, reactive systems like the G35x are also a dealbreaker for me.
If you need better straight-line acceleration, you will probably be able to chip the ECU of the manual IS250 much as some now do to the 1.8T a4 and get a dramatic boost in performance (along with worse gas mileage and possibly illegal emissions).
"Ratings for the new 2.5 come in at 201 horsepower at 6400 rpm and 184 pound-feet of torque at 3800 (the current IS offers 215 horses at 5800 and 218 pound-feet at 3800)." -C&D
Wow great. So not only does it have 14 fewer horses and 34 fewer ft.lbs of torque, but you have to rev higher to get to it. Brilliant. Yeah, the IS250 AWD will be pug slow.
I will be smile at every BMW 3 at the stop light, want to eat my dust? And that includes all those stick lovers, well, especially those stick lovers.
I do believe IS will bring out AWD and Manual in a year or two, then the Wagon in a year or two, and the hybrid... That is the right way to do business and that is why Toyota will be number 1.
"I do believe IS will bring out AWD and Manual in a year or two, then the Wagon in a year or two, and the hybrid... That is the right way to do business and that is why Toyota will be number 1."
They ain't gonna be number 1 in this segment without a manual in the first year. By the second or third year the press will have written the IS350 off, just like they did the IS300 when it showed up without a manual. I seriously doubt you'll see another wagon either (Wale_bate1). I see a coupe and a convertible, thats more in keeping with wanting to beat the 3-Series.
I don't necessarily agree with you (politely). It seems to me that your position is that eventually this will be a class beater, and then people better look out. The class keeps moving, and loyalties are formed. It gets harder and harder to be the defining car and class leader the longer your history. By the time a few more years pass by...
Of course, others may mis-step. Bangleized style and iDrive aren't helping BMW any (IMHO).
So, the concept of how good it is GOING to be seems thin to me. Better to be good now. Tim
While I seriously doubt there will be anything available at the NY show that won't be seen here soon, and my experience is that the knowledge level of show staff is limited (they're there to collect names, pass out brochures, or look good... and some do it well!!), I will try to ask about:
Agreed. When coming off a largely failed model, your replacement has got to hit the ground running. The M is an example of how to do this correctly. The last one lost to a Licoln LS and a bunch of European V6 powered cars. Infiniti knew that they had to go all out to make people forget (those who knew it even existed) the old M.
Using the 2.5L built for the European market when a perfectly good 3.0L exists (Theres a reason the US never got the IS200), sticking the AWD with the automatic, not offering AWD on the 350, AND no manual transmission as well. They are just setting themselves up to lose again. The competition ALREADY offers all of the things the IS doesnt have, and most likely wont get in the future.
Not to defend Lexus, because I’m not fan (other than IS), but I don’t think an IS250 will be a failure, but a success.
If the IS250 can be had for 27-29K it will no longer compete against the 3series but others.
For example, this configuration would put it in competition with an Acura TSX, or even the new Jetta.
A new Jetta GLI with a 2.0T and DSG will probably out perform the IS (should be around 6.9 to 60), but I can see many prospective buyers saying “for about the same $’s I could have this sexy looking Lexus”, particularly if the lease rates are attractive.
The IS may not be attempting to out perform/out class the 3 series, but out sell them (it may be more of an accountant/marking war than performance war)
The IS350 is only a myth as of now, as is the 3.5L BMW 3 series. I suspect they will be released close to each other and then the “big” performance numbers could be posted/advertised.
So now most members here have expressed some frustration about the IS--let us try and figure out Toyota's motive for the new IS?
In all honesty will it really make a big difference to Toyota if the IS steals some market share from the 330, Infiniti G35 or Audi A4? It is a drop in the bucket when you consider the following alternative approach. For every disgruntled enthusiast that flocks to the competition there may be two new IS owners who may flock from such high volume marques like Cadillac, Mercedes Benz, Buick, Lincoln, Jaguar . These type of customers(who tend to be more senior in age) are willing to spend the bucks on style, convenience, luxury and technology(user friendly or idiot proof ofcourse). Aggressive performance is not a priority for this type of car owner.
And dont forget not every existing IS owner today is a stick obsessed enthusiast. Many former IS owners may love the new vehicle.
Also the IS is more consistent in philosophy(technology,reliability, luxury , style) like the other Lexus vehicles. It is no longer the black sheep of the family and in the grand scheme of things consistency benefits Toyota as a whole.
Bottom Line: Auto enthusiasts be damned, especially when they hinder profits!!!
Dewey, I think yours is an excellent post. Toyota has never played the enthusiast market nearly as much as have other manufacturers. As long as the press is reasonably good, and the marketing campaigns successful, the cars will sell and Toyota will continue to reap the benefits of its efficient operations. Many here express regret about the new IS, but I'm excited because 1) on the lower end, I think the IS250 is a very attractive alternative to the TSX, 1.8T, etc and 2) on the higher end, I think the IS350 is killer, since I dont REALLY need to shift on my own given New Jersey traffic (though I probably cant afford the upper offering right now anyway).
Toyota sits on the largest cash hoard in the auto industry, and its not because they cater to a select few- its because they cater to most of the people, most of the time. Does it equal passion? No. Is it always a homerun? No. Does it make money? Yes.
Of course, others may mis-step. Bangleized style and iDrive aren't helping BMW any (IMHO).
What does iDrive have to do with anything? It's an option. A silly option, like the laser/radary cruise control or the navi or the active suspension/steering. Just frills with no benefit.
I am betting that the AWD used will be the one that is also in use for the new GS, which is a system that can put a maximum of 50% of the power to the front wheels, and is rear-biased under normal conditions. I will bet that they have not engineered the system to handle the 300+ hp of the IS350, which is why it is offered only on the lower model. The only GS that gets the AWD is the 245 hp GS300.
It seems to me that with the new IS250 Lexus is doing a Mercedes and Audi-like reach downmarket, to grab some more entry-level buyers in the hopes of making them life-long customers. It may work. With the SMT it will be as fast as my current car, and if it can do low 30s for fuel efficiency on the highway, then it begins to sound like a nice well-rounded package. The fastest on the block? No way. But a well-balanced RWDer with enough power to get out of its own way, yes.
It is a pity that the 350 will not have a manual. The enthusiasts will not forgive that, I know. Lexus should work on putting one in, and engineering the AWD system for the higher power of the 3.5. Low 8s does seem a bit slow for a Lexus "sport sedan", given that a Toyota Corolla will do the same.
Until the AWD is ready for the 3.5, they should cancel it entirely for the IS line, and introduce the Highlander's AWD system to the ES as a stopgap. In fact, having AWD available for the ES is a good idea IMO - they should continue that even after the IS350 gets AWD also.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think most of the disappointment on this board comes from the fact that the original IS300 was literally the anti-Lexus. Thats why there's more than a few in here that cant stand the rest of the company's products. Rather than take the edge of the original car and add the things it needed to be a real success, it seems like Lexus has retreated, in typical Toyota fashion, to making the IS a "safe" car with mass appeal.
To the bean counters that arent interested in cars, "safe" is better because it virtually gaurantees a big sales increase. The problem is Toyota doesnt need the money that these additional sales would bring. They are doing just fine. Toyota can afford to take risks and make flashy cars. The IS300 was one such car. Instead of just killing it off like the Supra, MR2, Celica, etc. they've left a pasteurized, homogenized version that will undoubtably not offend, but will almost certainly lack the spark of real passion of the original.
the IS250 can be had for 27-29K it will no longer compete against the 3series but others.
Watch the Lexus presentation. He said the IS250 will start at or near (ie above) the price of the current IS300. That's right, 30k or so. For a car with no power, no manual.
For example, this configuration would put it in competition with an Acura TSX, or even the new Jetta.
Those are fully loaded for 27-28k. Everything. The IS250, if you check the press sheet shows a laundry list of options...like navi, laser cruise, xenon headlights, etc. By the time you outfit one, you're talking mid to high 30s.
The IS350 is only a myth as of now, as is the 3.5L BMW 3 series.
Uh, dude check the press release. The IS350 is no more a myth than a white tiger. It's in the press release and the presentation focued on it with video clips.
There are no plans for a 3.5 3 series. Not sure where you read that but it's simply not gonna happen. At the most you may see a 330iT (turbo) but even that is a pipe dream. The 3.0 is used in most of BMW's line and it's an exceptional, light, powerful engine - thus doing duty in the 1, 3, 5, 6 and eventually z series (and probably X series too). Big investment that BMW is not gonna toss for a 3.5. Especially when the current 330i can easily hang with all the larger 3.5 engines out there.
Dewey, I think yours is an excellent post. Toyota has never played the enthusiast market nearly as much as have other manufacturers. As long as the press is reasonably good, and the marketing campaigns successful, the cars will sell and Toyota will continue to reap the benefits of its efficient operations.
All true but it gets on enthusiasts nerves when a talking head from lexus stands before everybody at the NYIAS and says the IS will be a class leader. No it won't given the numbers they're showing for performance and for sales. Both are not that impressive. If the class is the downmarket a4 2.0 and jetta, sure it'll be a class leader.
Well, iDrive is not an option (I don't think) in the 5-series. It was an example of what I think was a mistake. If BMW had further made that mistake in the 3-series it might affect Lexus' success in a positive way.
My point was that many are not crazy about the choices Lexus made for the new IS. Those choices are in a context - if the context changes (all models of competing MegaMobile only come in purple), it will alter how we see the IS.
If there were no more attractive alternatives, this car would look good. There ARE more attractive alternatives. We usually assume that tomorrow's alternatives will be even better. Sometimes they are not.
I'm not really a believer in that. Reality pushes innovation/dreaming in my opinion. If the sports sedan market was flooded with auto equipped AWD cars, I have a good feeling somebody out there would stand up and say, "but what if I want just the back wheels to propel the vehicle and I want manually move through gears like I do on my econobox?"
That's why people look at the 330i and think, well if they can do a BMW M3 coupe, why not a sedan? People are always scheming for bigger, better, faster, for their personal tastes. Regardless of what the manu makes, we want what doesn't exist.
Same with the IS, we know they can build a manual - there's one in the IS300 - so that begs the question, why isn't the IS350 outfitted with one?
Comments
There's an enormous difference between an SMG style paddle shifter in a formula 1 car and an automatic transmission in a lexus. No clutch in the lexus. instead a sexy torque converter.
No, not kidding. I understand they offer much brighter illumination. They are also (a) very expensive to replace if they burn out or a rock bounces up and breaks one, (b) a high theft risk, and (c) most importantly, a dangerous blinding risk to oncoming drivers, not to mention a huge distraction and annoyance to the people you follow, because they are so bright.
For equipment comparisons with the 330i, we might want to wait until a full spec sheet is available for both. We just might find that there are things that are standard on the IS that are not on the BMW (which is in my experience fairly common for BMW - extra charge for metallic paint? C'mon, I mean really!). And if the IS350 beats the 330i to 60 by only 3/4 of a second, that is still a meaningful acceleration advantage.
The biggest downside I can see from what they have announced is that the 350 is auto-only, which of course means I won't be getting one! But then, the 250 is perhaps more my style anyway.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where do you get 3/4 of a second? BMW, notorious for being conservative with figures, has the 330i with only 258 hp hitting 60 in 6.1 seconds. Lexus says upper 5s for the 300+hp IS350. That's to be generous, 5.7 seconds. That's not even half a second.
Beyond that, history shows Lexus misled everybody about the IS300's acceleration times. On the other hand BMW often states slower times - like the ZHP's 5.9 and mags get better acceleration C&D rang up 5.6 seconds with the car.
But of course, the 330i is working with 50 fewer lb-ft of torque and 50 fewer horses. So once again, what is Lexus doing with all their power?
As for the speed thing, well I guess we will have to wait and see. You DO agree though that it is an almost certainty that the IS will be faster? It seems you concede that in your remarks, here
"That's to be generous, 5.7 seconds. That's not even half a second."
among others. Beyond that, why are we debating? Many mags already had the IS300 beating the 3-series in straight-line acceleration, and the criticisms they had dealt with harsh handling and the slightly weird looks both in and out. So the question really becomes whether or not those "issues" have been resolved in the new model. I think the new look is great, and prefer it to the new 3-series. As for the handling, we will have to wait until it is possible to compare them back to back, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The handling is heavily influenced by the transmission, so having an auto only will hinder the car. My version of hell includes driving cars with automatics.
The straight-line acceleration numbers actually aren't proven. As I pointed out, Lexus flat out lied about the IS300. I don't trust their numbers on the IS350. regardless, it could be 2 seconds faster to 60, but it's an automatic and therefore not a car worth owning.
i will be automatically actuated??? This is ridiculous... I want a full manual transmission with a clutch and all: this piece of junk could not be at the same level as a 3-series if it doesn't offer a full manual. I guess Lexus wants to cater its last remaining sporting machine to the big fat bozos who could care less about what makes it a sport sedan. I can now truly sat that I will not even consider this new IS.
SHOCKED!!
What a bonehead move by Lexus! Never saw it coming. Making the same mistake twice! While losing power? This is a dark, dark day in Lexus history. Probably the darkest!!
I feel embarassed, ashamed, disrespected.
What's the point!! What is the point.
I will write Lexus, and let them know what I think of their new model, and old philosophy to pander to the cellphone-users of the world.
I'd write more, but I can't hold my head up, at least long enough to type my complete thoughts.
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You can configure a 330i there. I did a simple metallic paint, sport package - 39k. It's got the other things i want in the 330i standard now (xenon, moon). Euro delivery should bring it in for 36-37k.
And not even a damned future crossover to soothe my nerves.
Guten Tag BMW 3 Series
Sayonara Lexus IS :0(
G35 looks real compelling compared to the IS offerings. A manual G35 vs. the IS350---I think the choice is clear. Comparing a manual BMW 330 vs. the IS350---in this case the clairity is almost blinding!
blue guy: "My version of hell includes driving cars with automatics....regardless, it could be 2 seconds faster to 60, but it's an automatic and therefore not a car worth owning."
Now here I can safely say I am in whole-hearted agreement.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I can say it again that Lexus lost us for good.
BMW 3-series and G35 are the only options we now have in the real world of serious sport sedans with manual transmissions. Let old farts and secretaries drive the stupid SMT. Oh, I cannot overcome this feeling of betrayal! And we waited all this time for this P.O.S.?? Styling my [non-permissible content removed], it can look like a Ferrari, but no manual=no sale.
BWM is the winner as I suspected it would be...
Several mags tested the 2003 260hp G35 6MT Sedan in the high 5s 0-60. The 2003 280hp G35 6MT Coupe was tested as low as 5.5 seconds (C&D).
As far as I know, no one has tested the 298hp 2005 G35 6MT. But judging from the above numbers, mid-5s should be no problem.
Yes, it would be good for marketing purposes if an MT was available with the 3.5L version. But its not, and you know what? I dont think its going to be that big a deal for most people interested in a Lexus in the first place. The 3.5L will produce more than enough power to compete with the big boys, and the simple fact is that most vehicles are sold with automatics.
After reading the Press Release, I was a bit surprised at the IS250's acceleration times- seemed on the slower side... but time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the mags can do. For Pete's sake, the 130 horse 5M Corolla is timed by Car and Driver at 8.2 to 60, I struggle to believe that a time of "high 7s" will be all that a 6M 200+ hp IS will manage.
On a personal level, I much prefer the styling of this car inside and out to the new 3. Driving dynamics will be key, as will the actual pricing- and obviously, today's unveiling did little to make concrete any numbers.
For people like myself, just starting in the workplace (single, 23, decent income, no mortgages) cars like the Acura TSX, smaller engined 3 series, and now this Lexus IS250 are very appealing, and I for one would love the good power, high efficieny of the 2.5L 6M combo...
Bottom line, I suppose- I dont think this vehicle is nearly the disaster that so many here do.
Hopefully, I will have a better impression of the BMW 3 after attending tomorrow's Road Show- is anyone from this thread also attending the '3 Across America' event in Chelsea?
~alpha
Read the future magazine reviews. Read the latest posts. Look at the disappointed faces at Lexus dealerships when customers find out that a pedal clutch is not an option. The desire for a stick is not subtle!
Yes, it would be good for marketing purposes if an MT was available with the 3.5L version. But its not, and you know what? I dont think its going to be that big a deal for most people interested in a Lexus in the first place.
Ah but to those of us who want a manual sports sedan, the car is now worthless. No matter how it looks, no matter how it drives (though the handling won't be nearly as much fun without a manual anyway).
After reading the Press Release, I was a bit surprised at the IS250's acceleration times- seemed on the slower side... but time will tell, and it will be interesting to see what the mags can do. For Pete's sake, the 130 horse 5M Corolla is timed by Car and Driver at 8.2 to 60, I struggle to believe that a time of "high 7s" will be all that a 6M 200+ hp IS will manage.
Why? It's a 3400-3600 lb car - that's a good deal more weight than a corolla. Also the last gen IS300 with 220 hp couldn't run to 60 in under 7-7.5 seconds, so why would a heavier car with less power and torque do it faster?
But, with the likely weight, 200hp, and an auto, I think I will find it sluggish, as I did an auto TSX, which was otherwise a car I liked. Perhaps the better torque ratings over that car will save it (184 vs 161 or so). Certainly a 325 auto felt fine to me, and it had less HP.
Going to the NY auto show next week - may have a revised opinion then. Probably will drive one when they finally come out, but I am not as pleased about this car as I hoped I would be.
For what was to be a "class leader/beater" I don't see it. Tim
First, the 1st generation IS300 had 215bhp. Second, the new engines have dual VVTi and therefore should have better power curves and the engines should be more responsive. Third, the current IS300 is a dog. I've mentioned this before, the last generation GS300 with the same engine(+10bhp) did 0-60 in basically the same time as the IS300 with the same automatic transmission but with 200+ less pounds to lug around. Not to mention the IS300 had I think worse gas mileage numbers.
Plus, the new IS250 gets both 6-speeds which should improve acceleration.
Let's not compare the new IS250 to the current IS300. The IS300's straight line performance as well as gas mileage are a total mystery!
Pretty good as compared to a 325i? Wow, how impressive, besting a car that's sporting an engine half a liter smaller and with 30 fewer hp.
Not sure if that's applause worthy.
I've driven both the manual and auto versions of the IS300. There's a reason it sold in such paltry numbers Lexus feels the new one will do 600% better...
However, the news today is indeed disappointing. I currently have a 6 speed TSX, and from available info., what does the Lexus do to justofy its premium over this car. RWD is better for many people who want a real sports car, but where I live we get a fair amount of snow, so I like FWD.
Lexus could have given the Euros (BMW) a real run for their money, but autos won't do it. The lame argumnt that 'most people buy autos' doesn't wash, since most people have no choice but to buy autos.
I also suspect price is going to be 2-4K higher than most people expect owing to depreciation of the US$. Mind you, this pressure als oaffects BMW.
M
they're biting the bullet. an 06 330i comparably equipped to my 2003 330i costs 3k less msrp. actually, the new ones have more standard features I don't have. so it's an even bigger gulf. The e90 330i is actually a screaming bargain compared to the e46.
I figure a 330i, equipped as I want it will cost me 36k-36.5k on european delivery. That's using BMW's conservative ED program too, not the more aggressive one.
Sure I'd prefer a manual AND AWD but that's not a dealbreaker for me, where no AWD is an absolute dealbreaker. To my way of thinking the 350 ought to be AWD if anything; that's a lot of torque for only two wheels... what I'd like to know is what kind of AWD system it is, reactive systems like the G35x are also a dealbreaker for me.
If you need better straight-line acceleration, you will probably be able to chip the ECU of the manual IS250 much as some now do to the 1.8T a4 and get a dramatic boost in performance (along with worse gas mileage and possibly illegal emissions).
Wow great. So not only does it have 14 fewer horses and 34 fewer ft.lbs of torque, but you have to rev higher to get to it. Brilliant. Yeah, the IS250 AWD will be pug slow.
I do believe IS will bring out AWD and Manual in a year or two, then the Wagon in a year or two, and the hybrid... That is the right way to do business and that is why Toyota will be number 1.
I bet IS capacity will be short for its demand.
They ain't gonna be number 1 in this segment without a manual in the first year. By the second or third year the press will have written the IS350 off, just like they did the IS300 when it showed up without a manual. I seriously doubt you'll see another wagon either (Wale_bate1). I see a coupe and a convertible, thats more in keeping with wanting to beat the 3-Series.
M
Of course, others may mis-step. Bangleized style and iDrive aren't helping BMW any (IMHO).
So, the concept of how good it is GOING to be seems thin to me. Better to be good now. Tim
Pricing, availability target dates, engine specs, transmissions (e.g. manuals), other future versions, AWD design...
Anything else? As if I'll get it :-(
Using the 2.5L built for the European market when a perfectly good 3.0L exists (Theres a reason the US never got the IS200), sticking the AWD with the automatic, not offering AWD on the 350, AND no manual transmission as well. They are just setting themselves up to lose again. The competition ALREADY offers all of the things the IS doesnt have, and most likely wont get in the future.
If the IS250 can be had for 27-29K it will no longer compete against the 3series but others.
For example, this configuration would put it in competition with an Acura TSX, or even the new Jetta.
A new Jetta GLI with a 2.0T and DSG will probably out perform the IS (should be around 6.9 to 60), but I can see many prospective buyers saying “for about the same $’s I could have this sexy looking Lexus”, particularly if the lease rates are attractive.
The IS may not be attempting to out perform/out class the 3 series, but out sell them (it may be more of an accountant/marking war than performance war)
The IS350 is only a myth as of now, as is the 3.5L BMW 3 series. I suspect they will be released close to each other and then the “big” performance numbers could be posted/advertised.
In all honesty will it really make a big difference to Toyota if the IS steals some market share from the 330, Infiniti G35 or Audi A4? It is a drop in the bucket when you consider the following alternative approach.
For every disgruntled enthusiast that flocks to the competition there may be two new IS owners who may flock from such high volume marques like Cadillac, Mercedes Benz, Buick, Lincoln, Jaguar . These type of customers(who tend to be more senior in age) are willing to spend the bucks on style, convenience, luxury and technology(user friendly or idiot proof ofcourse). Aggressive performance is not a priority for this type of car owner.
And dont forget not every existing IS owner today is a stick obsessed enthusiast. Many former IS owners may love the new vehicle.
Also the IS is more consistent in philosophy(technology,reliability, luxury , style) like the other Lexus vehicles. It is no longer the black sheep of the family and in the grand scheme of things consistency benefits Toyota as a whole.
Bottom Line: Auto enthusiasts be damned, especially when they hinder profits!!!
Toyota sits on the largest cash hoard in the auto industry, and its not because they cater to a select few- its because they cater to most of the people, most of the time. Does it equal passion? No. Is it always a homerun? No. Does it make money? Yes.
~alpha
What does iDrive have to do with anything? It's an option. A silly option, like the laser/radary cruise control or the navi or the active suspension/steering. Just frills with no benefit.
It seems to me that with the new IS250 Lexus is doing a Mercedes and Audi-like reach downmarket, to grab some more entry-level buyers in the hopes of making them life-long customers. It may work. With the SMT it will be as fast as my current car, and if it can do low 30s for fuel efficiency on the highway, then it begins to sound like a nice well-rounded package. The fastest on the block? No way. But a well-balanced RWDer with enough power to get out of its own way, yes.
It is a pity that the 350 will not have a manual. The enthusiasts will not forgive that, I know. Lexus should work on putting one in, and engineering the AWD system for the higher power of the 3.5. Low 8s does seem a bit slow for a Lexus "sport sedan", given that a Toyota Corolla will do the same.
Until the AWD is ready for the 3.5, they should cancel it entirely for the IS line, and introduce the Highlander's AWD system to the ES as a stopgap. In fact, having AWD available for the ES is a good idea IMO - they should continue that even after the IS350 gets AWD also.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
To the bean counters that arent interested in cars, "safe" is better because it virtually gaurantees a big sales increase. The problem is Toyota doesnt need the money that these additional sales would bring. They are doing just fine. Toyota can afford to take risks and make flashy cars. The IS300 was one such car. Instead of just killing it off like the Supra, MR2, Celica, etc. they've left a pasteurized, homogenized version that will undoubtably not offend, but will almost certainly lack the spark of real passion of the original.
Watch the Lexus presentation. He said the IS250 will start at or near (ie above) the price of the current IS300. That's right, 30k or so. For a car with no power, no manual.
For example, this configuration would put it in competition with an Acura TSX, or even the new Jetta.
Those are fully loaded for 27-28k. Everything. The IS250, if you check the press sheet shows a laundry list of options...like navi, laser cruise, xenon headlights, etc. By the time you outfit one, you're talking mid to high 30s.
The IS350 is only a myth as of now, as is the 3.5L BMW 3 series.
Uh, dude check the press release. The IS350 is no more a myth than a white tiger. It's in the press release and the presentation focued on it with video clips.
There are no plans for a 3.5 3 series. Not sure where you read that but it's simply not gonna happen. At the most you may see a 330iT (turbo) but even that is a pipe dream. The 3.0 is used in most of BMW's line and it's an exceptional, light, powerful engine - thus doing duty in the 1, 3, 5, 6 and eventually z series (and probably X series too). Big investment that BMW is not gonna toss for a 3.5. Especially when the current 330i can easily hang with all the larger 3.5 engines out there.
All true but it gets on enthusiasts nerves when a talking head from lexus stands before everybody at the NYIAS and says the IS will be a class leader. No it won't given the numbers they're showing for performance and for sales. Both are not that impressive. If the class is the downmarket a4 2.0 and jetta, sure it'll be a class leader.
My point was that many are not crazy about the choices Lexus made for the new IS. Those choices are in a context - if the context changes (all models of competing MegaMobile only come in purple), it will alter how we see the IS.
If there were no more attractive alternatives, this car would look good. There ARE more attractive alternatives. We usually assume that tomorrow's alternatives will be even better. Sometimes they are not.
That's how iDrive relates (to me). Tim
Essentially, you're saying reality colors perception?
I'm not really a believer in that. Reality pushes innovation/dreaming in my opinion. If the sports sedan market was flooded with auto equipped AWD cars, I have a good feeling somebody out there would stand up and say, "but what if I want just the back wheels to propel the vehicle and I want manually move through gears like I do on my econobox?"
That's why people look at the 330i and think, well if they can do a BMW M3 coupe, why not a sedan? People are always scheming for bigger, better, faster, for their personal tastes. Regardless of what the manu makes, we want what doesn't exist.
Same with the IS, we know they can build a manual - there's one in the IS300 - so that begs the question, why isn't the IS350 outfitted with one?