To sell to a SMALL A4 1.8/TSX/S40 crowd, that's on them. I don't see it.
Lexus is a true luxury marque, not here to sell $25k cars to falsely create volume and traffic. Don't think Lexus is in dire need like the others.
If this is a 325/3330 competitor, they will treat it as such. BMW doesn't sell 185HP anymore. And the IS is not a 325 (yet), so they shouldn't either, unless they like staring at a lot full of malnourished sports sedans.
BMW will still be selling a 2.5L Version of the straight 6 with 215-218bhp in the new 3-series in North America. So it does make sense for Lexus to have a IS250 with about 210-220bhp for the United States.
Yeah, Lexus considers the GS300 AWD to be a different model than the GS300, and the IS300 manual to be a different model than the IS300, so that definitely makes sense. That pretty much rules out a new IS300 based on the 245hp 6 as well.
the new 325i does get the same 3-liter engine as the 330i, but detuned by 40 hp. Max is right - it is set to have 215 hp.
High $20Ks is a good price range for Lexus to have its base model, IMO. This is a VERY busy part of the price spectrum, and the IS would outclass all the cars in it right away by being RWD. Plus, with the extensive use of aluminum the new IS will have, it is very possible that it will be significantly lighter than the 325i, and consequently will be just as fast. For at least $2K less money, probably. We are talking about less than a 10% difference in power between them, after all.
I do find it intriguing that Toyota would bring this new DI V-6 to market for the GS, and then NOT make it available for the IS.
Autoweek speculated that the other two IS variants might be a cabrio and an IS430, but I think that was pure guessing based on some pretty old rumors.
Calling the IS RWD and IS AWD with the same engines different models is a bit of a stretch as far as I am concerned.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
that Autoweek article is mighty thin on details, contrary to what you think, Nippon. Saying a 2.5L 201hp and a 300+hp IS350, says what again ? Did they put a # on that IS350 output ? Nope. Saying 300+hp is nothing we don't already *know*.
As for the IS250, to me it would make no sense for Lexus to detune the motor for the NA market, from 204hp (Euro) to 201hp (US). No sense whatsoever, especially since the IS300 it replaces will be higher powered. Huh ! The 210-220hp rumor would be more like it, IMO. And keeping the 3L motor away from the IS just to *protect* the GS seems silly.
And even silli-er is no manual in a 300hp IS350 ! How can such a car compete against the Bimmer ??? Beats the heck out of me.
All of that said, I still want an IS350, hoping (against hope) it does come with a stick someday soon.
I will be at the NYIAS on Saturday, and the IS350 BESS have a stick in THUR (Nelly)!!
Not only should it have a stick, it would make MORE sense to offer ONLY a manual on the 350, to not only enhance it's image and market presence, but to atone for prior crimes against humanity!
"Does the fact that the Toyota Avalon has 35 more hp than the GS300 make any sense?"
It would if the new GS were notably sporty, since the Avalon is FWD and the very anithesis of sport. However, I am not convinced that the new GS IS all that sporty, contrary to what Toyota/Lexus will claim.
As for 204 (euro) hp vs 201 in the U.S., there are additional emissions restrictions on the engine here in the States that might knock off a few hp. I was however, hoping that an IS 250 manual would come in at more like 3200 pounds, rather than the 3450 quoted above. The current IS300 hits the scales at 3255, after all, and the new car would use an all-aluminum engine as well as a lot of aluminum in the chassis and body.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I hear you about the stick in the 350, but I doubt it. The market for that car priced in the low-$40K is high, while the universe of buyers of stick-shifts have shrunk, and continue to shrink. If we get the wheel-mounted paddle shifter, with the auto, and an electric steering, these may atone slightly for lack of stick. But nothing beats a 3-pedal driving combo for sheer fun.
A 298hp G35 loaded with all options sticker around $37K-ish. Since Lexus is a cut above Infiniti, expect a $3-5K mark-up from that price point. Meaning a $42K loaded IS350, with Nav, ML, etc... That won't be that bad, considering a 6-speed auto, 18" rims, on a new 3.5L DI vvt-i motor, and a brand spanking new skin. I can see Lexus pricing the IS350 at mid-high $30K base. I will assume this premium pricing can be justified if that truly is a Bimmer competitor with better styling, better interior ergonomics, excellent road manners (handling, etc), 315-320hp, doing a 0-60 in the mid-5s, and 1/4-mile @ 99mph+. Now, doc, would you pay $40K for that car ???
The way the IS rear tires are wider than the front, tells me the IS much more serious than before. For the G35, only the manual with 298HP, and For the 3, only the 330i has such option.
This IS styling is too sleek and too high class for a 300+HP, it is no doubt wolf with sheep's skin. Strong and Silent, is that the new Lexus personality? And why wouldn't lexus sale that performance in Europe and Slap it real hard on the face of the German?
For Lexus to not offer the stick on the IS350 is like the French thinking the Maginot line would protect them in WWII. Fool me twice, shame on me. The TL, G35, 330i, heck even the C350 offers a stick doesnt it? It doesnt matter what the teeny percentage of sticks they will actually sell is, or the fact that theres essentially no used market for luxury cars with sticks, you still have to offer one.
"It doesnt matter what the teeny percentage of sticks they will actually sell is, or the fact that theres essentially no used market for luxury cars with sticks, you still have to offer one"
I agree.
BUT
As a pragmatic business man, I must say that Toyota/Lexus feels that the buyers of the auto will outnumber those seeking stick shift. Besides, they create more value for their buyers since the auto will depreciate less. I know I make no sense to a car enthusiast, but the practical side of me always looks at this in a purely business way. And that, unfortunately, is what makes the world go round.....
I will still like to see Lexus offer a stick in the IS350 if only for the small minority of buyers, and to heck with the bean counters...
I'm sure that the vast majority of sales would be automatic, just as they are for Acura, Mercedes, and the rest. When you've got one though, even if it only accounts for 10% of your sales, you can send it to the magazines and go head to head with the competition, which is critically important in this class.
The new 3-Series has only a 3.0L I6 in different states of tune, there is no 2.5L I6 in the new 3-Series. See the April issues of either MT or Automobile.
YOu are right, Car and Driver may be wrong. I'm not saying C&D is right and the rest are wrong, I'm merely stating what C&D said in the April issue. But it does cause confusion when some magazines say one thing and some say something else.
for the new 3-series in Europe, I believe. The New York show is this week - BMW should be officially announcing the engines and all the usual sources will cover it word for word, so you can get the info from the horse's mouth in about 48 hours.
Not to mention, Lexus will be making a similar announcement for the IS at the same show. Apparently Lexus.com will have live streaming video of the press conference - starts at noon eastern time, 9 AM here on the west coast I guess.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Thought I would drop in a learn about the new IS model...seems most of the discussion is about love of stick shifts and BMW engine choices.
If your world revolves around shifting gears - why not just buy an RX-8, S2000, Miata, BMW, etc? I can not imagine anyone being unhappy with one of those...(I can vouch for the RX-8)
But, back to the topic - Any new info about the Lexus IS300 or the NY Auto Show (on Wed) that will be the U.S. intro for the IS250 and IS350? Any thoughts on prices and options (except "will a stick shift be available")?
When mazda decides to slap a turbo/supercharger on the RX-8, i'll be interested. Until then, it's really not on the radar.
The Is350 is supposed to compete with the 3 series. That means 4 doors, compact sedan, entry-lux refinement, sporting intentions. There's no such thing as sporting intentions if they put a lazy tranny in it.
Lexus has outright stated that the 3-series is the target, much as Infiniti did with the G35. Since both the Lexus and the BMW are new right now, it is natural to compare the two.
Besides, there is still a lot of stuff that we can only speculate about on the new IS, and the NY show this week will give us a lot more concrete info to work with! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Blueguy - I thought the entire IS line was meant to compete with the 3 series...thought I read that somewhere, but I may be wrong.
(P.S. I would not have a turbo on my RX-8 - I have heard of the turbo kicking in at unfortunate times - I would not want to be do a twisty backroad/curve and have the turbo kick-in/break the back wheels loose. I don't need that much driving excitement. If you are refering to turbo straight line acceleration - the 8 is not the best choice - the 8 is for twisty roads). Cheers
I have to agree with blueguy. I'm not a fan of the wankel. Sure its small, but its not particularly powerful, and it sucks gas like a V8. I dont really like having to rev an engine into the stratosphere just to squeeze out a few measily ft.lbs of torque. Even Honda had enough sense to bore out the S2000 to 2.2L so the rev range could be lowered and torque (what there is of it) is available in a more usable range.
If I were shopping in that class though, it would be for a 350Z. No clutch dropping required, just mash the pedal and there's actually power to be had.
Don't be an armchair racer The rotary in the RX-8 develops smooth power throughout the rev range. Perhaps I've yet to be spoiled by 250-300 horsepower cars, but the RX-8 feels 'just right' as it is.
I love how often on the list of cars that "suck gas like a V8," the current IS300 is left out. The RX-8 is rated at 18/24. The IS300 is 18/25. Even the 2800lb 4-cylinder S2000 was rated at 20/26, and now 20/25. It's often overlooked that BMW has consistantly led this class with figures like 21/30, and the E90 is supposed to be even better despite the extra horsepower. Even Mercedes now offers a 1.8l supercharged model of the C sedan that gets 23/31.
Toyota/Lexus' new generation of direct injection V6s finally has the potential to catch-up with the Germans. The V6 GS300 gets 22/30 next to the old I6 GS300's 18/25. I personally would love an IS250 if it got something like 23/31, nearly matching a 4-cylinder Camry. But the "green company" Prius reputation of Toyota often blinds us to the fact that many Toyotas are not fuel-efficiency leaders.
Rotor, have you never driven a modern turbo? You know when the boost is coming because it's your car. and it's not like turbo cars suddenly surge forward.
I own a mazda and my family's had several. Great handling cars but with exception of the Mazdaspeed Pro and the last gen RX, they have built a wicked fast, great handling car in years. Great handling is nice. Add power and now you leave those corners a lot faster - the whole point of having more power. Enter faster, leave even faster.
The RX is supposed to be a sports car, therefore it's not a shock many Mazda fans are demanding a car that can at least match the last gen RX - one of the sexiest cars ever produced.
As for the IS, if it doesn't have a manual, in my eyes, it's not a competitor to the 3. We'll know tomorrow if Lexus has fumbled the ball.
geez, the "ancient" 4.7L in the large Toyota trucks is only seven years old! Hardly a GM comparison there. In fact, the inline six in the current IS is probably the oldest engine in use anywhere in the Toyota empire, which is the primary reason for its fairly dismal fuel efficiency. High time for it to be gone. Good thing Toyota is doing just that this year.
BTW, I think the original point of the comparison with the Renesis was that it wasn't exactly fair because the Mazda's engine was so new and the Lexus's engine was old. Which doesn't change the fact that someone at Toyota made the choice to continue use of this old engine when they put the IS on the market in the U.S., probably for the sake of cost and speed-to-market considerations.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm not worried that they will drop the ball on this one. I have faith.
DrFill
Got any proof? I've read many things and all are contradictory. Don't point to autoweek as proof as mags lie, make up stuff and are wrong more often than they're right.
I find it unfathomable that Lexus would release a 2.5L IS in the USA. Not when they have that solid new 3.0. Why use a small, underpowered engine in this segment? Doesn't make sense.
That was my point exactly. Even Toyota's 3.3L 6 which is almost as old as the inline (its just a bored out version of the 3.0 thats been with us since '93 or so) is more efficient, because its gotten a lot more high tech upgrades. Lexus continued to use the old Inline with the GS and IS right up until '06 because until they came out with these new 3.0 and 3.5 engines, Toyota didnt have anything else. The 3.3L is not a performance engine, and wasnt built for RWD applications.
The Renesis doesnt have the excuse of being old and outdated. It just gets poor fuel economy.
Comments
Lexus is a true luxury marque, not here to sell $25k cars to falsely create volume and traffic. Don't think Lexus is in dire need like the others.
If this is a 325/3330 competitor, they will treat it as such. BMW doesn't sell 185HP anymore. And the IS is not a 325 (yet), so they shouldn't either, unless they like staring at a lot full of malnourished sports sedans.
DrFill
BMW will still be selling a 2.5L Version of the straight 6 with 215-218bhp in the new 3-series in North America. So it does make sense for Lexus to have a IS250 with about 210-220bhp for the United States.
The press release from the Toyota website says "IS350" and it says the US will get 4 seperate IS models.
http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050318
IS250 RWD Auto
IS250 RWD Manual
IS250 AWD Auto
IS350 RWD Auto
At least that's what I gather.
High $20Ks is a good price range for Lexus to have its base model, IMO. This is a VERY busy part of the price spectrum, and the IS would outclass all the cars in it right away by being RWD. Plus, with the extensive use of aluminum the new IS will have, it is very possible that it will be significantly lighter than the 325i, and consequently will be just as fast. For at least $2K less money, probably. We are talking about less than a 10% difference in power between them, after all.
I do find it intriguing that Toyota would bring this new DI V-6 to market for the GS, and then NOT make it available for the IS.
Autoweek speculated that the other two IS variants might be a cabrio and an IS430, but I think that was pure guessing based on some pretty old rumors.
Calling the IS RWD and IS AWD with the same engines different models is a bit of a stretch as far as I am concerned.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As for the IS250, to me it would make no sense for Lexus to detune the motor for the NA market, from 204hp (Euro) to 201hp (US). No sense whatsoever, especially since the IS300 it replaces will be higher powered. Huh ! The 210-220hp rumor would be more like it, IMO. And keeping the 3L motor away from the IS just to *protect* the GS seems silly.
And even silli-er is no manual in a 300hp IS350 ! How can such a car compete against the Bimmer ??? Beats the heck out of me.
All of that said, I still want an IS350, hoping (against hope) it does come with a stick someday soon.
I wouldn't count on it. The Euro IS250 weighs about 3450 pounds. I see no reason why the US version would weigh any less.
Not only should it have a stick, it would make MORE sense to offer ONLY a manual on the 350, to not only enhance it's image and market presence, but to atone for prior crimes against humanity!
THEN, in Fall '06, off an Auto.
Thank You.
DrFill
It would if the new GS were notably sporty, since the Avalon is FWD and the very anithesis of sport. However, I am not convinced that the new GS IS all that sporty, contrary to what Toyota/Lexus will claim.
As for 204 (euro) hp vs 201 in the U.S., there are additional emissions restrictions on the engine here in the States that might knock off a few hp. I was however, hoping that an IS 250 manual would come in at more like 3200 pounds, rather than the 3450 quoted above. The current IS300 hits the scales at 3255, after all, and the new car would use an all-aluminum engine as well as a lot of aluminum in the chassis and body.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I hear you about the stick in the 350, but I doubt it. The market for that car priced in the low-$40K is high, while the universe of buyers of stick-shifts have shrunk, and continue to shrink. If we get the wheel-mounted paddle shifter, with the auto, and an electric steering, these may atone slightly for lack of stick. But nothing beats a 3-pedal driving combo for sheer fun.
Bess not be low 40's, unless that's with EVERY option!
Better base $34,995, WITH 300+HP.
G35 is 298HP for what, $31k?
If they want to sell these cars, I'm expecting a lot of good reasons why I should buy one next week.
If I hear 200Hp, and $40k+ for a real sedan, and then only Auto, Lexus can kiss my.....
DrFill
This IS styling is too sleek and too high class for a 300+HP, it is no doubt wolf with sheep's skin. Strong and Silent, is that the new Lexus personality? And why wouldn't lexus sale that performance in Europe and Slap it real hard on the face of the German?
The G is around $31k, but needs Bose and roof to get to $35k.
Take the Lexus name out of it. The IS has a lot to prove, and has to earn a high price tag, like the G35 is doing.
And I wouldn't pay a plum nickel for a car sans stick!
DrFill
So the two important variables that will be important will be pricing and handling.
I agree.
BUT
As a pragmatic business man, I must say that Toyota/Lexus feels that the buyers of the auto will outnumber those seeking stick shift. Besides, they create more value for their buyers since the auto will depreciate less. I know I make no sense to a car enthusiast, but the practical side of me always looks at this in a purely business way. And that, unfortunately, is what makes the world go round.....
I will still like to see Lexus offer a stick in the IS350 if only for the small minority of buyers, and to heck with the bean counters...
bye-bye Lexus, hello BMW...
everything I have read says the new 3-series comes with 2.5L straight 6 and a 3.0L straight 6.
M
North America gets a 3.0 litre in the 325i.
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Car and Driver is wrong... Just trying to help you out by giving you the correct information..
You may choose to believe or disbelieve...
regards,
kyfdx
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Not to mention, Lexus will be making a similar announcement for the IS at the same show. Apparently Lexus.com will have live streaming video of the press conference - starts at noon eastern time, 9 AM here on the west coast I guess.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If your world revolves around shifting gears - why not just buy an RX-8, S2000, Miata, BMW, etc? I can not imagine anyone being unhappy with one of those...(I can vouch for the RX-8)
But, back to the topic -
Any new info about the Lexus IS300 or the NY Auto Show (on Wed) that will be the U.S. intro for the IS250 and IS350? Any thoughts on prices and options (except "will a stick shift be available")?
Cheers
The Is350 is supposed to compete with the 3 series. That means 4 doors, compact sedan, entry-lux refinement, sporting intentions. There's no such thing as sporting intentions if they put a lazy tranny in it.
Besides, there is still a lot of stuff that we can only speculate about on the new IS, and the NY show this week will give us a lot more concrete info to work with! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
(P.S. I would not have a turbo on my RX-8 - I have heard of the turbo kicking in at unfortunate times - I would not want to be do a twisty backroad/curve and have the turbo kick-in/break the back wheels loose. I don't need that much driving excitement. If you are refering to turbo straight line acceleration - the 8 is not the best choice - the 8 is for twisty roads). Cheers
If I were shopping in that class though, it would be for a 350Z. No clutch dropping required, just mash the pedal and there's actually power to be had.
I love how often on the list of cars that "suck gas like a V8," the current IS300 is left out. The RX-8 is rated at 18/24. The IS300 is 18/25. Even the 2800lb 4-cylinder S2000 was rated at 20/26, and now 20/25. It's often overlooked that BMW has consistantly led this class with figures like 21/30, and the E90 is supposed to be even better despite the extra horsepower. Even Mercedes now offers a 1.8l supercharged model of the C sedan that gets 23/31.
Toyota/Lexus' new generation of direct injection V6s finally has the potential to catch-up with the Germans. The V6 GS300 gets 22/30 next to the old I6 GS300's 18/25. I personally would love an IS250 if it got something like 23/31, nearly matching a 4-cylinder Camry. But the "green company" Prius reputation of Toyota often blinds us to the fact that many Toyotas are not fuel-efficiency leaders.
Mike
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101980
I own a mazda and my family's had several. Great handling cars but with exception of the Mazdaspeed Pro and the last gen RX, they have built a wicked fast, great handling car in years. Great handling is nice. Add power and now you leave those corners a lot faster - the whole point of having more power. Enter faster, leave even faster.
The RX is supposed to be a sports car, therefore it's not a shock many Mazda fans are demanding a car that can at least match the last gen RX - one of the sexiest cars ever produced.
As for the IS, if it doesn't have a manual, in my eyes, it's not a competitor to the 3. We'll know tomorrow if Lexus has fumbled the ball.
The last gen IS300's engine and efficiency was a turn off for me too. If the epa says 18/24, I'd get more like 18 all the time. Yikes.
I don’t understand the point of this?
Either they can make high quality, fuel efficient engines or they can’t. That seems like a statement reserved for GM.
I’m pretty sure they can put something better in there, the reason they don’t is because they don’t have to (“badge buyers”).
A co-worker of mine recently spent over 50K for a GX470; with the old 4.7L Toyota engine. They are perfectly happy with it they own a Lexus.
I suspect, and it’s only speculation, that the segment the IS is in will not be as tolerant with has-been shelved engines in a new automobile.
Or not
BTW, I think the original point of the comparison with the Renesis was that it wasn't exactly fair because the Mazda's engine was so new and the Lexus's engine was old. Which doesn't change the fact that someone at Toyota made the choice to continue use of this old engine when they put the IS on the market in the U.S., probably for the sake of cost and speed-to-market considerations.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And my #2: The IS250 will start at $28,995!
I'm not worried that they will drop the ball on this one. I have faith.
DrFill
I would be worried..
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And my #2: The IS250 will start at $28,995!
I'm not worried that they will drop the ball on this one. I have faith.
DrFill
Got any proof? I've read many things and all are contradictory. Don't point to autoweek as proof as mags lie, make up stuff and are wrong more often than they're right.
I find it unfathomable that Lexus would release a 2.5L IS in the USA. Not when they have that solid new 3.0. Why use a small, underpowered engine in this segment? Doesn't make sense.
The Renesis doesnt have the excuse of being old and outdated. It just gets poor fuel economy.