Not quite. This didn't start as an auto/stick exchange. It was about the comment from someone saying there were a lot of "new IS" complaints, and that the NEXT go around of the IS would really be good (that's an oversimplified summary).
I just said that the market is moving, and the delay won't help, unless the rest of the market screws up, which is what the iDrive example was about.
I generally agree that to be competitive and be a mind-share leader with enthusiasts and car mags, the IS350 should offer a stick.
So, in that way, I agree with you - I don't think this announcement hit the mark in many ways, including an IS350 stick, and an underpowered AWD auto, to pick just two examples.
I don't want a stick, but I don't think that I particularly affect general market perception.
...that about 15 years producing luxury cars is simply too long in the strictly luxury car game to produce a great sports car? Porsche didn't exactly have a reputation for creating SUVs and they sold their Cayenne pretty well (correct me if I'm wrong). I have heard a lot of positive feedback for this LF-A and it was one of the highlights of the auto show it was debuted at (forget which one, LA?). The LF-A is far from destined for failure. With the brand new direction Lexus is taking with their styling the LF-A will more than fit in and Lexus will be seen in a much more sexy, stylish light; just you wait and see. I know many people who would gladly buy a sexy LF-A Lexus over a Corvette anyday and believe me, so would I! (give me 5 years)
After some thought, we should not be surprised they did not offer any price information. The car is not going to hit the lots for at least 6 months, they just released the price of RX400h, what, a month before they go on sale. Although I would have loved to hear that the IS250 base was in the $28k or below ballpark I guess I'll have to wait and see...... I'm going to see it in person on Monday at the NY auto show.
Not gonna happen. BMW is not going to switch to a bigger engine for at least 3 years. No need to bump the power of the 330i until it becomes clear the car can't compete anymore - at this time the 330i still hangs with or trumps all the competition. Remember this is a company that gets over 350 hp out of a 3.2 liter (M3 CSL). They know how to massage engines.
The G35 has more power, the TL does too, yet neither is really eating into BMW. The soon to be Is350 will also have more power.
If we see anything most are betting on a 3.0 with a turbo - that'll easily eclipse 300 hp. with the 4.0 v8 in the M3 making 400 hp, they don't want any regular models getting too close to the king of the 3 series line.
Huh...let's see. THe Infinti G35 didn't have a manual at lauch and it was successful from day 1 on the market. Nor did it have AWD from day 1 and it was still successful.
My bet is that the IS350 will get a stick in year 2 as well as AWD. The indication is the 3.5L will replace the 3.0L V6 in the GS which thereby means the AWD will mate up with the 3.5L in the GS. Therefore, eventually the IS350 will get AWD also. With supposedly coupe and maybe a convertible version of the IS coming in a few years, I'm sure we'll see a manual tranny for the 3.5L V6. Of course it would be nice to see one at launch but I don't think the lack of a manual tranny will kill sales.
How many manual equipped cars are sold every year as a percentage of total vehicle sales in the US? I would guess maybe 5-10%. People can make the argument carmakers aren't making manuals, but we all know why they aren't making manuals. It's because consumers aren't buying them. Consumers would rather have cupholders so they can drink their big gulp on their way to work, while eating their Doughnut from Dunkin Donuts, and doing their make-up!! It's kinda hard to do that with a stick shift!!
Anyway, I don't think the lack of a manual at launch killed the first generation IS300. If you think back, it's strongest sales year was the 1st year and even year 2 was slight down after the manual was launched. What hurt the car in the US is simple. It was narrow(can't fit big american folks in the seats), the interior space was tight, I'm 5'11" and with me sitting in the driver's seat, I couldn't even fit in the back seat! And on top of all this, the interior was not befitting a Lexus and the features were lacking compared to the competition.
And think about this. How many G35 sedan's have you seen with a manual? or C-class Benz's?
uh...let's see. THe Infinti G35 didn't have a manual at lauch and it was successful from day 1 on the market. Nor did it have AWD from day 1 and it was still successful.
Do you need a history refresher? From day one Infiniti promised a manual. They held out that oliver branch to enthusiasts and if you check alloy and other places you'll find G owners who waited to buy the 6. i was among them. I would not move on a car until I drove the G35 6 MT.
So in reality, Infiniti always promised the 6 speed. Lexus, if you read the posting or saw the actual event lexus never said a word about manual 350. They didn't bother to extend that carrot.
My bet is that the IS350 will get a stick in year 2 as well as AWD. The indication is the 3.5L will replace the 3.0L V6 in the GS which thereby means the AWD will mate up with the 3.5L in the GS. Therefore, eventually the IS350 will get AWD also. With supposedly coupe and maybe a convertible version of the IS coming in a few years, I'm sure we'll see a manual tranny for the 3.5L V6. Of course it would be nice to see one at launch but I don't think the lack of a manual tranny will kill sales.
It will hurt them in the mags. They took a bath last time for it and the car never recovered. They didn't learn from past mistakes. Odd.
Consumers would rather have cupholders so they can drink their big gulp on their way to work, while eating their Doughnut from Dunkin Donuts, and doing their make-up!! It's kinda hard to do that with a stick shift!!
Actually it's not. Never tried it with the bimmer but I used to eat in my other cars. Not a big deal to drive stick, hold a cup between your legs, talk on the cell and shift.
It was narrow(can't fit big american folks in the seats), the interior space was tight, I'm 5'11" and with me sitting in the driver's seat, I couldn't even fit in the back seat! And on top of all this, the interior was not befitting a Lexus and the features were lacking compared to the competition.
Well a myriad of factors, boy racer looks, poor engine performance, lexus lie about the car's 0-60 (always tested far slower than their 6.8 sec claim), the general buyer (kids, punks, etcs). It all hurt the cat but what really hurt it was toyota's weird decision not to really tackle the market. they still aren't trying. that's why they have a sales goal of 45k - which is a far cry from the numbers Infiniti, BMW and Acura move.
And think about this. How many G35 sedan's have you seen with a manual?
I think that just the fact that the old IS300 was the Anti-Lexus Lexus, people shunned away from it because it didn't drive like a Lexus. There's a reason why the RX330 and ES330 are Lexus's most popular cars. The cramped interior and the cheap dashboard didn't seem to help.
Geez ! Talk about a blood bath for the new IS among the enthusiasts.
Blue: I already speculated that this new IS350 won't be to your liking. Turned out to be true. But, your disappointment shows in the passion of your words on this forum. This is the kind of passion Lexus desperately needs to encourage in order to have more success as a separate entity from big brother Toyota.
Nippon: Your post on AWD was dead-on. Thanks for bringing in some levity to this forum despite the disappointments. Yes, it was no home run for the IS, but it may be a double, scoring 2 runs. We'll see how the car actually drives on the standard 17" and the optional staggered 18" rims, soon enough within a couple of months...
LG: From the laundry list of things Lexus missed with the new IS, I agree 100% with you. But Max may be right, that year-2 may bring more goodies. Recall that the masterplan is something *new* every 18 months, a la BMW... See, maybe we all got it wrong when Lexus promised to be a BMW competitor. Maybe it was not the car itself, but the process.... Who knows ?
And now my thoughts:
The new IS is a breath of fresh air, although it is short on many things, notably power and tranny options. But it hits the mark on new interior ergonomics, exterior styling, features and content. My buying decision won't be final until we see the comparos against the Bimmer. For now, I am still leaning only very slightly for the IS350 over the 330i for two reasons: (a) lack-luster exterior styling of the e90, and (b) no performance numbers on the new IS350. However, if the IS with the higher motor and torque comes out slower than the Bimmer, then I will definitely have a problem with buying the car. My biggest beef is with the new 3 style; it is such a turn off, giving the slight nod to the IS. Sans a turn off exterior of the new e90 Bimmer, I'd be visiting a BMW dealer nearest me right about now.
But we buy & drive cars based on how they look from the outside also. Let's face it, all the new bimmers are so ugly, not sure what went wrong there, the old 3/5/7 were so beautiful, but no more.
"I think most of the disappointment on this board comes from the fact that the original IS300 was literally the anti-Lexus. Thats why there's more than a few in here that cant stand the rest of the company's products..."
OK, "can't stand" may be a step over the edge (except in regard to the ES), but certainly "never would consider purchasing" would hit the mark.
Okay. woopdido, you've driven 3. What does that prove? What I'm saying is the overall 6-speed manual sales of G35's sedans is relatively small compared to overall G35 sedan sales. I would venture to guess maybe 10-15%, maybe 20% tops.
"So in reality, Infiniti always promised the 6 speed. Lexus, if you read the posting or saw the actual event lexus never said a word about manual 350. They didn't bother to extend that carrot."
Okay, that is true. But remember the IS is still about 6 months away from introduction. You may still hear news about a manual between now and October. Remember the last IS intro. They didn't mention a stick either at the official launch but a couple of months before launch they sent out a press release stating a manual would come the year after.
"It will hurt them in the mags. They took a bath last time for it and the car never recovered. They didn't learn from past mistakes. Odd"
Actually not really. Even without a manual, the IS300 beat out it's competitors in a few comparison tests, and I believe in the first year it came in the top 3 in every comparison test.
"LG: From the laundry list of things Lexus missed with the new IS, I agree 100% with you. But Max may be right, that year-2 may bring more goodies. Recall that the masterplan is something *new* every 18 months"
What's the laundry list they missed? I can think of a manual for the IS350 and AWD. I would hardly call that a laundry list. Last time they missed out on a manual tranny, as well as luxury amenities, gas mileage, horsepower, interior room, and more. That was a laundry list.
As I said previously, it's a pretty safe bet that the GS will be getting the 3.5L V6 to replace the 3.0L V6 next year, and the 3.5L V6 will obviously mate up to a AWD system. Therefore the IS350 getting AWD would make sense. ANd there is also strong indication a coupe/convertible may come. I think they are definately going to keep excitement in the product line in the future, a la BMW.
Nah. Krispy Kreme stinks! Gotta go Dunkin Donuts. You know while you're driving it's great to have a box of a dozen doughnuts and all dozen being a different flavor! What does Krispy Kreme give you? 2 flavors! Not to mention a cup of that great dunkin donuts coffee in the cupholder to go along with the donuts:)
Not having one doesn't bother me in the least (I get the feeling most potential buyers feel the same way). Can't wait to get my hands on the IS250 AWD. It's all I need. These are business decisions and should not be taken personally. Toyota manufactures vehicles for the masses not for individuals. Any company that tries to do this will not survive. Toyota must be doing something right, they are setting sales records everywhere.
Incidentally, Kripy Kreme is going bankrupt. Unlike Toyota they did not properly plan for the future. The product they are selling is no longer desired by the majority.
But we buy & drive cars based on how they look from the outside also.
Speak for yourself. I could not care less how it looks from the outside. My god, I've owned Stanzas, Jettas, Proteges. I don't buy cars for looks. Never have, never will.
These are business decisions and should not be taken personally. Toyota manufactures vehicles for the masses not for individuals. Any company that tries to do this will not survive.
Hmm, wonder how German companies are surviving, thriving while offering users the ability to order cars individualized from the factory.
Oh wait, Toyota does something like this too, it's called Scion. and Scions are sold in large numbers with manuals. The individualized gen-y company is doing well with a model where the car comes pretty basic and you load it with the stuff to make it your own.
Hmm, maybe there's a future in this wacky world of individualized cars. Ya think? I mean the SEMA show and the market for aftersale car goods is insane but nah, people all want to drive the same thing...
Have you ever been to a krispy kreme? Honestly, as I used to stop at drive thru and get my crew at work a couple dozen.
Off the top of my head i can think of the jelly filled, creme filled, lemon filled, traditional sprinkles, original krispy, devil's food, crumble, sugar, blueberry and sour cream. I count more than 2 right there.
Here is LG's comment that I refered to as laundry list:
"Using the 2.5L built for the European market when a perfectly good 3.0L exists (Theres a reason the US never got the IS200), sticking the AWD with the automatic, not offering AWD on the 350, AND no manual transmission as well.."
To which I add mine as follows - an IS250 is heavier than its replacement, lower in HP, and slower, yet same or even a tad higher in price. An IS350 with 300+bhp but a measly 275+ Ibft of torque = Avalon anyone ? 300+hp/6-speed auto, 3500+Ib of heft, little wonder it is barely ahead of the smaller engined 330i at 255hp, mated to a 6-MT.
Prior to the details from the NAIAS, I was pretty excited about the IS. It looks great inside and out. It would come in AWD, which I need. And Lexus appeared determined to put more excitement in their cars.
I'd have to say now that I'm pretty disappointed in the IS and will not consider buying one. Not only are they not offering a manual in the IS350 (HUGE mistake), but the manual that they are offering in the IS250 is not even a REAL manual--it's a SMT. (Sorry, if there's only 2 pedals, it ain't a real manual.) I don't know how you can say IS will be the class-leading sports sedan when you can't get one with a real manual. I'm surprised that they made that decision, especially when the lack of a manual was what gave the IS Mk1 so much bad publicity in the car press initially. I get the feeling that although Lexus claims they're shooting for BMW, their real target is MB.
The combination that I'm looking for is a AWD manual sports sedan. Lexus doesn't offer it. And looking at the recent launches of both the GS and the IS, I don't think they'll ever offer it.
From the BMW 3 series event in Chelsea. Very impressive, though I thought Jean Jennings, editor-in-cheif of Automobile magazine, made a complete fool of herself. If she wasnt intoxicated during her speech, shes simply a damn poor speaker. (She opened up by yelling "SIMMMMMA DOWNNNNN NOWWWWW).
The vehicles on display were 3 330s... two in very sharp silver. The time quoted for the 255hp engine and 6M was 6 seconds to sixty...seems that the 300+ hp Lexus IS350 will be able to TRUMP that. The cars are very attractive in profile, and feature some of the best interior appointments I've seen in a BMW. Still, I prefer what the pictures of the IS interior show, theres more contrast, the ergonomics appear better, and the IP is more visually appealing.
More interestingly, a 1973 2002tii was on display. So minimalist! They also had an 83 320i and an 87 328i, both manuals. Very fun exhibits.
The issue of manual tranmissions aside, I dont really see what would stop this new IS from being VERY successful.
Pricing Points of reference:
The BMW 325i with the 215hp 3.0L engine starts at $30,995 including destination, which I dont think is a resounding bargain. Adding the just the Premium Pkg and Heated Front Seats brings the total $34,870.
A well loaded 325i with Steptronic 6A, Premium Pkg, Sport Pkg, and Cold Weather Pkg is $38,245.
A similarly equipped 330i (Steptronic, Premium Pkg, Sport Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg) stickers at $43,375.
Check off all the options boxes and the 330i (with the above plus Active Steering, Power Rear Sunshade, Park Distance Control, Active Cruise, OnBoard NAV, and Satellite Radio) is $50,515.
An enthusiast minded 330i with the manual, Cold Weather Pkg, Premium Pkg, and Sport Pkg is $42,270.
A minimalist enthusiast could theoretically have the 330i with manual and Sport Pkg for $40,520.
(Prices above include the extra cost paint, which is dramatically nicer than the three standard colors).
you can option the 330i up to $50K now??? There are an awful lot of fine cars available at the $50K mark. I would skip the NAV and active steering, thereby also passing on iDrive, and save about 5 grand.
To me, the 325i at $31K doesn't sound too bad.
Lexus should be sure to beat that sticker by at least $1000 for the IS250.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also depends at what RPM that is at. If it's at 4500 it may not feel that impressive when compared to a lesser 3.5V6 such as the MB350 which makes only 260ft-lb but 87% of that is available at 1500rpm.
A SMT or SMG as they are called does have a clutch, but it is operated by a computer instead of the driver. This is why they aren't able to match a true automatic that has a torque converter. VW's DSG however is darn close to an automatic in operation, and it has a dual clutch in which one gear is pre-selected before the actual gear change is made. So no a SMT/SMG/DSG isn't an automatic, but a manual with electronic/hydraulic clutch operation, with no driver input = third pedal.
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"Have you ever been to a krispy kreme? Honestly, as I used to stop at drive thru and get my crew at work a couple dozen."
We don't have any Krispy Kreme stores here in Jersey, at least any that I know of. The only places you can really buy them here is at a gas station C-store, super market, or on the turnpike. In the NorthEast they get eaten alive by Dunkin-Donuts! I was speaking of my experience around here, where they only sell like 3-4 flavors!
A measly 275+ lb ft. of torque? That's measly in a 3,500lb car? Which one of the IS350's competitor's is going to give you more power? Answer-I can't think of one at this moment(there may be one or two though).
What's up with the reference to the Avalon? As far as I can see the Avalon is pretty quick and right on target in the 0-60 run for it's power and size. Don't forget, the IS350 is getting at least 20more bhp and a 6-speed automatic tranny, and it will be about the same or a bit lighter.
"To which I add mine as follows - an IS250 is heavier than its replacement, lower in HP, and slower, yet same or even a tad higher in price. An IS350 with 300+bhp but a measly 275+ Ibft of torque = Avalon anyone ?"
Ok, I agree about the IS250. Our version of the car should have been IS300. However, 300+hp and 275+ft.lbs of torque makes the IS350 the most powerful 3.5L V6 on the planet. The Avalon is rated 280\260. Acura's is 300\260. The G35 is either 280\270, or 298\260.
Is the IS manual really a SMG? Is this an all new transmission? I dont think the MR2's box could just be adapted for use in that, and Toyota doesnt have another that I'm aware of.
"The IS 250 will carry a 2.5-liter version of the same advanced V6 engine with over 200 hp and more than 180 lb.-ft. of torque. Coupled with a standard 6-speed sequential manual transmission, acceleration from 0-60 miles per hour will be in the high 7-second range. Estimated combined fuel economy ratings are also expected to be in the high-twenties."
I heard it is similar to what is offered in the MR2.
says that the IS250 will have either a six-speed automatic or a "six speed sequential manual". If that is not an SMT a la MR2, I wonder what it is instead. What it clearly is NOT is a traditional automatic with a torque converter, since one of those is available as an option.
edit...freshies got there before me! :-)
I bet the 250 with the SMT will be able to do better than high 7s - I can't wait until some of the magazines get their hands on one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is a press release we're talking about though. Wouldn't we have heard about this in Geneva if a sequential manual was actually on the cars?
I've worked with marketing departments before. Most of the people there, even internal to the company, knew next to nothing about the product. It's my guess that whoever typed up that press release was told to write "manual transmission," but had heard the term "sequential manual transmission" before, and used it as a buzz word.
A minimalist enthusiast could theoretically have the 330i with manual and Sport Pkg for $40,520.
Uh, dude, you're flat out wrong.
SP and 330i together with metallic paint has an MSRP of 39k How do I know? Well the BMW site for one and because that's the car I will probably get. The 40,520 price includes leather.
Even with park distance and leather, I'll be looking at a European Delivery price of 36k. Will Lexus be able to offer me an Is350 at 36k with 4 years service and a manual? Nope. Not even close.
"However, 300+hp and 275+ft.lbs of torque makes the IS350 the most powerful 3.5L V6 on the planet. The Avalon is rated 280\260. Acura's is 300\260. The G35 is either 280\270, or 298\260."
True. Well, I don't know about the planet, but definitely in this class.
Although, there are rumors in Japan that the next G (coming here in two years) will carry a 4.1 VQ V6 making 330+ hp, probably as an option.
Nissan/Infiniti seems intent on having the most power in its class for almost every one of their vehicles, so I would not be overly surprised if this happens.
So maybe a G30 or G35 as the "base" model, and a G40 as the high performance model? Who knows.
how much does it cost to ship the car back to the U.S. when you are done driving it around Bavaria-land (European delivery)? I am curious to know. Also, how long does it typically take to ship? I have heard about these Euro delivery programs over the years and have always been curious. I hear they put you up in a hotel for the time you are there too? Have you done it before, or is this the first time you are contemplating it?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Also the engine choice for the G350 makes you wonder? Read the following from the article:
GS' underwhelming V-6 puts that car in an awkward position. Not only is it outdone by its direct rival, it also has significantly less power and verve than the mainstream Toyota Avalon sedan just launched by the Lexus parent. Toyota says a replacement 3.5-liter V-6 is under development for GS but gave no specifics.
how much does it cost to ship the car back to the U.S. when you are done driving it around Bavaria-land (European delivery)?
same shipping and handling cost as getting it in the USA - 695.
I am curious to know. Also, how long does it typically take to ship? 4 to 6 weeks.
I have heard about these Euro delivery programs over the years and have always been curious. I hear they put you up in a hotel for the time you are there too? Have you done it before, or is this the first time you are contemplating it?
no hotel with bmw's program,. i've not done it but last time i planned on ED until I got a smoking deal on a ZHP locally.
interesting - four to six weeks' wait seems like a small price to pay for saving several thousand $$, not to mention the fun little long weekend in Europe. It IS legal to drive your new car around over there before having it shipped, right?
As for the reviews of the new GS, no big surprise there. The car is pretty heavy to say it is competing in the sporty market, given the 245 hp rating. That probably makes the significantly lighter Camry SE 3.3 faster to 60 mph...not to mention Lexus' own ES330. And when will the ES get the new 3.5? It is due for a rework in about a year, so maybe they will wait until then.
OTOH, if Toyota drops the new 3.5 into the GS this fall when the IS arrives, then I feel sorry for the early buyers (getting their cars right now) who will be left with an orphaned car that has less power than most of the model run.
Glimmer of hope: maybe once the GS gets the 3.5 as the base engine, the new 3.0 it is currently using will become the base engine for the IS? Seems likely, given Lexus' new policy of incremental improvements throughout the model cycle. 245 hp in a 3400 pound car would make the IS decently fast with the base engine, if that were to happen.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The 3.5 is slated to be dropped in the GS, and replace the 3.0, in the fall of 2006 for the 2007 model year. That is also when the GS 430 will most likely become the GS 460.
People who really care about power, wouldn't get the IS250 at all. They would either get the IS350 or some other model. The people who get the IS250 are buying on price and are not going to care much that some other car is faster from 0-60 as long as it's fast enough for their daily driving (not racing). They can get an Evo or WRX Sti if they want real speed in that price range.
Ah, so they've already said that then? In that case, it is highly likely the IS250 will become the IS300 at the same time - no way did Toyota spend time and money developing the new DI 3.0 just to use it for two years in the GS and then drop it. And the IS is the only other RWD Lexus they could use it in. (unless they have a new Supra by then, yessssss!). :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
I just said that the market is moving, and the delay won't help, unless the rest of the market screws up, which is what the iDrive example was about.
I generally agree that to be competitive and be a mind-share leader with enthusiasts and car mags, the IS350 should offer a stick.
So, in that way, I agree with you - I don't think this announcement hit the mark in many ways, including an IS350 stick, and an underpowered AWD auto, to pick just two examples.
I don't want a stick, but I don't think that I particularly affect general market perception.
Tim
(my forum name is derived from my location)
Eventually the 325 will use the curren 330 engine (255ish hp) and the 330 will be a 3.5L (300+ hp)...
The G35 has more power, the TL does too, yet neither is really eating into BMW. The soon to be Is350 will also have more power.
If we see anything most are betting on a 3.0 with a turbo - that'll easily eclipse 300 hp. with the 4.0 v8 in the M3 making 400 hp, they don't want any regular models getting too close to the king of the 3 series line.
They're all pretty similar in performance anyways.
Especially 0-60...which really doesn't matter to me...it's been MANY years since I've gone WOT from 0-60.
My bet is that the IS350 will get a stick in year 2 as well as AWD. The indication is the 3.5L will replace the 3.0L V6 in the GS which thereby means the AWD will mate up with the 3.5L in the GS. Therefore, eventually the IS350 will get AWD also. With supposedly coupe and maybe a convertible version of the IS coming in a few years, I'm sure we'll see a manual tranny for the 3.5L V6. Of course it would be nice to see one at launch but I don't think the lack of a manual tranny will kill sales.
How many manual equipped cars are sold every year as a percentage of total vehicle sales in the US? I would guess maybe 5-10%. People can make the argument carmakers aren't making manuals, but we all know why they aren't making manuals. It's because consumers aren't buying them. Consumers would rather have cupholders so they can drink their big gulp on their way to work, while eating their Doughnut from Dunkin Donuts, and doing their make-up!! It's kinda hard to do that with a stick shift!!
Anyway, I don't think the lack of a manual at launch killed the first generation IS300. If you think back, it's strongest sales year was the 1st year and even year 2 was slight down after the manual was launched. What hurt the car in the US is simple. It was narrow(can't fit big american folks in the seats), the interior space was tight, I'm 5'11" and with me sitting in the driver's seat, I couldn't even fit in the back seat! And on top of all this, the interior was not befitting a Lexus and the features were lacking compared to the competition.
And think about this. How many G35 sedan's have you seen with a manual? or C-class Benz's?
Do you need a history refresher? From day one Infiniti promised a manual. They held out that oliver branch to enthusiasts and if you check alloy and other places you'll find G owners who waited to buy the 6. i was among them. I would not move on a car until I drove the G35 6 MT.
So in reality, Infiniti always promised the 6 speed. Lexus, if you read the posting or saw the actual event lexus never said a word about manual 350. They didn't bother to extend that carrot.
My bet is that the IS350 will get a stick in year 2 as well as AWD. The indication is the 3.5L will replace the 3.0L V6 in the GS which thereby means the AWD will mate up with the 3.5L in the GS. Therefore, eventually the IS350 will get AWD also. With supposedly coupe and maybe a convertible version of the IS coming in a few years, I'm sure we'll see a manual tranny for the 3.5L V6. Of course it would be nice to see one at launch but I don't think the lack of a manual tranny will kill sales.
It will hurt them in the mags. They took a bath last time for it and the car never recovered. They didn't learn from past mistakes. Odd.
Consumers would rather have cupholders so they can drink their big gulp on their way to work, while eating their Doughnut from Dunkin Donuts, and doing their make-up!! It's kinda hard to do that with a stick shift!!
Actually it's not. Never tried it with the bimmer but I used to eat in my other cars. Not a big deal to drive stick, hold a cup between your legs, talk on the cell and shift.
It was narrow(can't fit big american folks in the seats), the interior space was tight, I'm 5'11" and with me sitting in the driver's seat, I couldn't even fit in the back seat! And on top of all this, the interior was not befitting a Lexus and the features were lacking compared to the competition.
Well a myriad of factors, boy racer looks, poor engine performance, lexus lie about the car's 0-60 (always tested far slower than their 6.8 sec claim), the general buyer (kids, punks, etcs). It all hurt the cat but what really hurt it was toyota's weird decision not to really tackle the market. they still aren't trying. that's why they have a sales goal of 45k - which is a far cry from the numbers Infiniti, BMW and Acura move.
And think about this. How many G35 sedan's have you seen with a manual?
Well I've driven 3. :P
Blue: I already speculated that this new IS350 won't be to your liking. Turned out to be true. But, your disappointment shows in the passion of your words on this forum. This is the kind of passion Lexus desperately needs to encourage in order to have more success as a separate entity from big brother Toyota.
Nippon: Your post on AWD was dead-on. Thanks for bringing in some levity to this forum despite the disappointments. Yes, it was no home run for the IS, but it may be a double, scoring 2 runs. We'll see how the car actually drives on the standard 17" and the optional staggered 18" rims, soon enough within a couple of months...
LG: From the laundry list of things Lexus missed with the new IS, I agree 100% with you. But Max may be right, that year-2 may bring more goodies. Recall that the masterplan is something *new* every 18 months, a la BMW... See, maybe we all got it wrong when Lexus promised to be a BMW competitor. Maybe it was not the car itself, but the process.... Who knows ?
And now my thoughts:
The new IS is a breath of fresh air, although it is short on many things, notably power and tranny options. But it hits the mark on new interior ergonomics, exterior styling, features and content. My buying decision won't be final until we see the comparos against the Bimmer. For now, I am still leaning only very slightly for the IS350 over the 330i for two reasons: (a) lack-luster exterior styling of the e90, and (b) no performance numbers on the new IS350. However, if the IS with the higher motor and torque comes out slower than the Bimmer, then I will definitely have a problem with buying the car. My biggest beef is with the new 3 style; it is such a turn off, giving the slight nod to the IS. Sans a turn off exterior of the new e90 Bimmer, I'd be visiting a BMW dealer nearest me right about now.
We'll see how the cars stack up. In time....
Correction...
Crispy Creme
OK, "can't stand" may be a step over the edge (except in regard to the ES), but certainly "never would consider purchasing" would hit the mark.
LG, that is insight indeed. Kudos.
Okay. woopdido, you've driven 3. What does that prove? What I'm saying is the overall 6-speed manual sales of G35's sedans is relatively small compared to overall G35 sedan sales. I would venture to guess maybe 10-15%, maybe 20% tops.
"So in reality, Infiniti always promised the 6 speed. Lexus, if you read the posting or saw the actual event lexus never said a word about manual 350. They didn't bother to extend that carrot."
Okay, that is true. But remember the IS is still about 6 months away from introduction. You may still hear news about a manual between now and October. Remember the last IS intro. They didn't mention a stick either at the official launch but a couple of months before launch they sent out a press release stating a manual would come the year after.
"It will hurt them in the mags. They took a bath last time for it and the car never recovered. They didn't learn from past mistakes. Odd"
Actually not really. Even without a manual, the IS300 beat out it's competitors in a few comparison tests, and I believe in the first year it came in the top 3 in every comparison test.
What's the laundry list they missed? I can think of a manual for the IS350 and AWD. I would hardly call that a laundry list. Last time they missed out on a manual tranny, as well as luxury amenities, gas mileage, horsepower, interior room, and more. That was a laundry list.
As I said previously, it's a pretty safe bet that the GS will be getting the 3.5L V6 to replace the 3.0L V6 next year, and the 3.5L V6 will obviously mate up to a AWD system. Therefore the IS350 getting AWD would make sense. ANd there is also strong indication a coupe/convertible may come. I think they are definately going to keep excitement in the product line in the future, a la BMW.
Crispy Creme "
Nah. Krispy Kreme stinks! Gotta go Dunkin Donuts. You know while you're driving it's great to have a box of a dozen doughnuts and all dozen being a different flavor! What does Krispy Kreme give you? 2 flavors! Not to mention a cup of that great dunkin donuts coffee in the cupholder to go along with the donuts:)
Incidentally, Kripy Kreme is going bankrupt. Unlike Toyota they did not properly plan for the future. The product they are selling is no longer desired by the majority.
Speak for yourself. I could not care less how it looks from the outside. My god, I've owned Stanzas, Jettas, Proteges. I don't buy cars for looks. Never have, never will.
Hmm, wonder how German companies are surviving, thriving while offering users the ability to order cars individualized from the factory.
Oh wait, Toyota does something like this too, it's called Scion. and Scions are sold in large numbers with manuals. The individualized gen-y company is doing well with a model where the car comes pretty basic and you load it with the stuff to make it your own.
Hmm, maybe there's a future in this wacky world of individualized cars. Ya think? I mean the SEMA show and the market for aftersale car goods is insane but nah, people all want to drive the same thing...
Max,
Have you ever been to a krispy kreme? Honestly, as I used to stop at drive thru and get my crew at work a couple dozen.
Off the top of my head i can think of the jelly filled, creme filled, lemon filled, traditional sprinkles, original krispy, devil's food, crumble, sugar, blueberry and sour cream. I count more than 2 right there.
I know there are more...
Here is LG's comment that I refered to as laundry list:
"Using the 2.5L built for the European market when a perfectly good 3.0L exists (Theres a reason the US never got the IS200), sticking the AWD with the automatic, not offering AWD on the 350, AND no manual transmission as well.."
To which I add mine as follows - an IS250 is heavier than its replacement, lower in HP, and slower, yet same or even a tad higher in price. An IS350 with 300+bhp but a measly 275+ Ibft of torque = Avalon anyone ? 300+hp/6-speed auto, 3500+Ib of heft, little wonder it is barely ahead of the smaller engined 330i at 255hp, mated to a 6-MT.
And there is my laundry list !
I'd have to say now that I'm pretty disappointed in the IS and will not consider buying one. Not only are they not offering a manual in the IS350 (HUGE mistake), but the manual that they are offering in the IS250 is not even a REAL manual--it's a SMT. (Sorry, if there's only 2 pedals, it ain't a real manual.) I don't know how you can say IS will be the class-leading sports sedan when you can't get one with a real manual. I'm surprised that they made that decision, especially when the lack of a manual was what gave the IS Mk1 so much bad publicity in the car press initially. I get the feeling that although Lexus claims they're shooting for BMW, their real target is MB.
The combination that I'm looking for is a AWD manual sports sedan. Lexus doesn't offer it. And looking at the recent launches of both the GS and the IS, I don't think they'll ever offer it.
The vehicles on display were 3 330s... two in very sharp silver. The time quoted for the 255hp engine and 6M was 6 seconds to sixty...seems that the 300+ hp Lexus IS350 will be able to TRUMP that. The cars are very attractive in profile, and feature some of the best interior appointments I've seen in a BMW. Still, I prefer what the pictures of the IS interior show, theres more contrast, the ergonomics appear better, and the IP is more visually appealing.
More interestingly, a 1973 2002tii was on display. So minimalist! They also had an 83 320i and an 87 328i, both manuals. Very fun exhibits.
The issue of manual tranmissions aside, I dont really see what would stop this new IS from being VERY successful.
Pricing Points of reference:
The BMW 325i with the 215hp 3.0L engine starts at $30,995 including destination, which I dont think is a resounding bargain. Adding the just the Premium Pkg and Heated Front Seats brings the total $34,870.
A well loaded 325i with Steptronic 6A, Premium Pkg, Sport Pkg, and Cold Weather Pkg is $38,245.
A similarly equipped 330i (Steptronic, Premium Pkg, Sport Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg) stickers at $43,375.
Check off all the options boxes and the 330i (with the above plus Active Steering, Power Rear Sunshade, Park Distance Control, Active Cruise, OnBoard NAV, and Satellite Radio) is $50,515.
An enthusiast minded 330i with the manual, Cold Weather Pkg, Premium Pkg, and Sport Pkg is $42,270.
A minimalist enthusiast could theoretically have the 330i with manual and Sport Pkg for $40,520.
(Prices above include the extra cost paint, which is dramatically nicer than the three standard colors).
~alpha
Can somebody go get me some?
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To me, the 325i at $31K doesn't sound too bad.
Lexus should be sure to beat that sticker by at least $1000 for the IS250.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
M
Also depends at what RPM that is at. If it's at 4500 it may not feel that impressive when compared to a lesser 3.5V6 such as the MB350 which makes only 260ft-lb but 87% of that is available at 1500rpm.
M
Thanks.
M
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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We don't have any Krispy Kreme stores here in Jersey, at least any that I know of. The only places you can really buy them here is at a gas station C-store, super market, or on the turnpike. In the NorthEast they get eaten alive by Dunkin-Donuts! I was speaking of my experience around here, where they only sell like 3-4 flavors!
What's up with the reference to the Avalon? As far as I can see the Avalon is pretty quick and right on target in the 0-60 run for it's power and size. Don't forget, the IS350 is getting at least 20more bhp and a 6-speed automatic tranny, and it will be about the same or a bit lighter.
Ok, I agree about the IS250. Our version of the car should have been IS300. However, 300+hp and 275+ft.lbs of torque makes the IS350 the most powerful 3.5L V6 on the planet. The Avalon is rated 280\260. Acura's is 300\260. The G35 is either 280\270, or 298\260.
Is the IS manual really a SMG? Is this an all new transmission? I dont think the MR2's box could just be adapted for use in that, and Toyota doesnt have another that I'm aware of.
"The IS 250 will carry a 2.5-liter version of the same advanced V6 engine with over 200 hp and more than 180 lb.-ft. of torque. Coupled with a standard 6-speed sequential manual transmission, acceleration from 0-60 miles per hour will be in the high 7-second range. Estimated combined fuel economy ratings are also expected to be in the high-twenties."
I heard it is similar to what is offered in the MR2.
edit...freshies got there before me! :-)
I bet the 250 with the SMT will be able to do better than high 7s - I can't wait until some of the magazines get their hands on one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've worked with marketing departments before. Most of the people there, even internal to the company, knew next to nothing about the product. It's my guess that whoever typed up that press release was told to write "manual transmission," but had heard the term "sequential manual transmission" before, and used it as a buzz word.
Otherwise, the IS would be off my list.
Mike
Uh, dude, you're flat out wrong.
SP and 330i together with metallic paint has an MSRP of 39k How do I know? Well the BMW site for one and because that's the car I will probably get. The 40,520 price includes leather.
Even with park distance and leather, I'll be looking at a European Delivery price of 36k. Will Lexus be able to offer me an Is350 at 36k with 4 years service and a manual? Nope. Not even close.
True. Well, I don't know about the planet, but definitely in this class.
Although, there are rumors in Japan that the next G (coming here in two years) will carry a 4.1 VQ V6 making 330+ hp, probably as an option.
Nissan/Infiniti seems intent on having the most power in its class for almost every one of their vehicles, so I would not be overly surprised if this happens.
So maybe a G30 or G35 as the "base" model, and a G40 as the high performance model? Who knows.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2005-03-24-lexus-gs_x.htm
Also the engine choice for the G350 makes you wonder? Read the following from the article:
GS' underwhelming V-6 puts that car in an awkward position. Not only is it outdone by its direct rival, it also has significantly less power and verve than the mainstream Toyota Avalon sedan just launched by the Lexus parent. Toyota says a replacement 3.5-liter V-6 is under development for GS but gave no specifics.
Anyone else notice the engine and drivetrain that Lexus introduced on the 2007 GS450h?
I think Lexus may have staved it off the initial product launch to keep interest in the brand...it seems to be working.
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/104904/page005.html?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..- leftnav.6.**
CrimsonO2
how much does it cost to ship the car back to the U.S. when you are done driving it around Bavaria-land (European delivery)?
same shipping and handling cost as getting it in the USA - 695.
I am curious to know. Also, how long does it typically take to ship?
4 to 6 weeks.
I have heard about these Euro delivery programs over the years and have always been curious. I hear they put you up in a hotel for the time you are there too? Have you done it before, or is this the first time you are contemplating it?
no hotel with bmw's program,. i've not done it but last time i planned on ED until I got a smoking deal on a ZHP locally.
As for the reviews of the new GS, no big surprise there. The car is pretty heavy to say it is competing in the sporty market, given the 245 hp rating. That probably makes the significantly lighter Camry SE 3.3 faster to 60 mph...not to mention Lexus' own ES330. And when will the ES get the new 3.5? It is due for a rework in about a year, so maybe they will wait until then.
OTOH, if Toyota drops the new 3.5 into the GS this fall when the IS arrives, then I feel sorry for the early buyers (getting their cars right now) who will be left with an orphaned car that has less power than most of the model run.
Glimmer of hope: maybe once the GS gets the 3.5 as the base engine, the new 3.0 it is currently using will become the base engine for the IS? Seems likely, given Lexus' new policy of incremental improvements throughout the model cycle. 245 hp in a 3400 pound car would make the IS decently fast with the base engine, if that were to happen.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The people who get the IS250 are buying on price and are not going to care much that some other car is faster from 0-60 as long as it's fast enough for their daily driving (not racing).
They can get an Evo or WRX Sti if they want real speed in that price range.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)