The IS is supposed to be a sports sedan not a ES/LS type car. The IS is supposed to be their BMW competitor. Haven't you been paying attention to what Clements or whatever his name has been saying? GS and IS = BMW competitors in their book, but in reality not so much so. The lack of manual, of which I've never seen so much posted about is and obvious mistake to the few that care about such things
The IS specs are impressive and will compete against the 3 in every way. The so-called lack of a MT in the IS350 is the single reason this car is being beaten to death. Most MB, Audi, BMW sport sedans sold have slushboxes. If the IS350 has a stick would that make it a better car than the 330i ? Not necessarily ! The handling needs to be there. The suspension needs to be there. And that VDIM needs to be less obtrusive to give the car a better handle on the road.
Pls remember the IS250 comes standard with a traditional 3-pedal MT. I can see the 6MT in the IS350-coupe in a couple of years. Who knows, maybe even sooner in the sedan. I read that many Infiniti dealers are having difficulty selling the manual G35, but selling out the Coupe version with a stick. That makes more sense, doesn't it ? Maybe Lexus will do same. More emphasis on the sporty side in the coupe, and more lux-sport on the sedan part. I guess we'll see the plan unfold by October this year....
I'm through with this thread until Lexus announces their intention to really compete in the sport sedan market.
And i'm sorry so many of you hate driving so much that you feel where you live (NJ for instance) wouldn't warrant considering handling and performance when buying a car. But then that begs, the question, why not just buy a 98 Camcord and save the extra 20k? Maybe you do care about driving dynamics on your sedan, so in that case, dismissing these factors in competitors doesn't make sense.
And I didn't buy the TSX because I fell in the love with the handling and power of my 330i ZHP. If you don't think there's a marked difference between the 330i ZHP and a 325i SP...well I can't help you. That's your issue.
"And i'm sorry so many of you hate driving so much that you feel where you live (NJ for instance) wouldn't warrant considering handling and performance when buying a car. But then that begs, the question, why not just buy a 98 Camcord and save the extra 20k? Maybe you do care about driving dynamics on your sedan, so in that case, dismissing these factors in competitors doesn't make sense."
After taking a few minutes to decode that paragraph (or loose interpretation of one), I think the only thing that was ever mentioned is: In some areas, a non-manual transmission vehicle is more practical more often than is a manual, whose benefits arent easily exploited.
You act as if a SEDAN cant handle or perform well with an automatic. The point is that for many of us, especially those in congested areas ("NJ for example") driving pleasure and automatic transmissions are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I personally think the IS350 is going to kick [non-permissible content removed].
A bunch of posts have been deleted. Rules to continue participating in this discussion: 1) No more manual v. automatic argument in here. 2) Lay off the comparisons. This is not a comparisons discussion. No one has driven this vehicle yet.
If your post is not specifically about the upcoming Lexus IS, chances are good that it will disappear, and your posting privileges in this discussion may be revoked.
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Has anyone who's been to the New York show found out the nature (permanent vs. reactive) of the AWD system Lexus will use on the AWD version of the IS250?
I agree with you up to a point. I am sure the automatic equipped IS 350 will be a blast to drive. No doubt about that. But remember, Lexus is positioning the IS as a true 3 series fighter which means sportiness supersedes luxury and ride. Why not offer a manual to the 10% of the potential customer who really enjoys the feel of driving by rowing their own gears ? If sedans like Corolla and Camry can get a manual tranny why not the IS ? My personal guess is that Lexus would offer a manual tranny within one or two model year after the 06 IS is released.
And we have been saying this here as well, that Lexus may provide the stick in MY2007 as they did for the 1st-gen IS300 series. There are other variants of the IS coming soon - coupe or hard-top vert, which may also get a 6MT. Besides, its still 6 months to release and anything can still change on the 2006 IS350.
Driving nut here who craves handling, owns current IS and no longer buys manuals.
We exist. Deal with it. [-P
The missing manual in the 350 will end up a press fiasco down the road. I feel it coming like a bus in a tunnel. Unless, of course they announce it as a "coming soon".
What the Lexus customer would actually buy means zero, IMO, in that discussion...
the lack of the manual in the 350 is disconcerting but there are some things i love about this new IS. i still love my IS though. how can you not love the IS now with its bright xenons and yellow fogs coming at you in the dark night. i mean, no other car is that distinct. when you see an IS coming at you or coming up on one on the freeway you know what it is by the taillights. all the other cars out there are mostly just blah.
back to what i love about this new car.
no more souped up corolla jokes. no more boyracer jokes. no more taillight jokes. no more slow car jokes. no more pokemon jokes. no more it looks like a civic jokes. no more of a lot of crap that i used to see here on edmunds.
all the lexus haters will just talk about the lack of a manual in the 350. but don't worry. it will come sooner than later hopefully.
and by the way. have any of you seen the back of the new 330i???? that is just the ugliest thing i have ever ever seen next to the G35's back. geezzz. what is that????
Thanks! It's about time! I like what I see so far but, until I have definitive information on the coupe and the hardtop convertible I will go crazy with anticipation. Now I have to wait until the sedan goes on sale and for Lexus to release information slowly probably early next year on what the rollout plan is for the coupe/convertible.
i forgot to list one other thing about what i love about the new IS.
no more cheap looking interior jokes.
by the way. it is obvious manual or not no car in this segment will be able to outrun a IS350 so don't worry about the upcoming 330i comparo. bmw better count on having a more RELIABLE AND CHEAPER 330i than it is right now because it won't have the luxury of outgunning the new IS by a second in the 0-60 dept. you know what i mean??
if you guys want to read a real magazine read Consumer Reports. in recent years they have ripped the 3 series and A4 for a very marginal reliability/maintenance record. while they RECOMMEND practically every lexus even the IS300. 0-60 and 1/4 mile is nice but it isn't everything. i can zoom zoom past lots of people in my 215 hp IS300 with EASE.
My guess is that staggered introductions will be the new 'Lexus way'. Look at the M vs. GS for example. Infiniti laid all the cards on the table, just as Lexus did with previous GS models. Sales of Lexus sports models have always tanked after 2 years or so, so perhaps the idea is one problem, one year at a time. Hopefully it will work for them.
and by the way. have any of you seen the back of the new 330i???? that is just the ugliest thing i have ever ever seen next to the G35's back. geezzz. what is that????
Some of us don't buy cars for how they look. I couldn't care less if the car had a pinwheels and a garfield etched into the trunk. Makes no difference to me. I've owned (and still own) cars I find visually unappealing. It's how they drive that matters to me.
I wish BMW and audi were more reliable too. That's why I was eagerly awaiting Lexus' IS350. You guys act like I'm a Lexus hater when in fact I wanted the car (regardless of how bland it looks - nod to your other post).
Still bumming that they didn't address me needs. Who knows, maybe by October things will change. Or maybe by March of next year there will be word of the changes I want and then I can get the Lexus instead of a 330i. Shrug...
I'm through with this thread until Lexus announces their intention to really compete in the sport sedan market.
Lexus announced it already. Whether it fits your own criteria is your own issue.
And i'm sorry so many of you hate driving so much that you feel where you live (NJ for instance) wouldn't warrant considering handling and performance when buying a car. But then that begs, the question, why not just buy a 98 Camcord and save the extra 20k?
So what's the deal with having the back seat adding to the weight of your supposedly sporty car? For the amount of money you paid, if you don't get the corvette coupe, you may as well get a 98 Cancord and save the extra 20k. How does that sound?
If you don't think there's a marked difference between the 330i ZHP and a 325i SP...well I can't help you. That's your issue.
If you don't think there is a marked difference between a FWD family sedan and RWD IS . . . well I can't help you. That's your issue.
Well, I'm not out to erase the stick from the planet or anything like that Dewey! I still believe that until true stick performance is available to the general public in a two-pedal car, the stick has to be offered to make any sporting car credible. EOS.
I believe from what I've read DSG will be the beginning. We'll see.
But I calculated that my time driving is spent with perhaps a maximum of 7% selecting gears for performance's sake. Of that, probably 50% is habit, and 50% yields results of signifigance. Any higher, and I'd be in jail or dead.
That leaves me with at least 93% of my total driving time around town and on freeways and such where I derive no practical or even visceral benefit from running through a H pattern. Whereas I used to love to do it just for doing it, I don't need it anymore for routine driving.
Doesn't change the fact that the press will likely spit collectively at the idea of a sports car with no available stick... ;-)
So what's the deal with having the back seat adding to the weight of your supposedly sporty car? For the amount of money you paid, if you don't get the corvette coupe, you may as well get a 98 Cancord and save the extra 20k. How does that sound?
Entry level sports lux compact sedan. What in the definition for this segment is beyond your ken?
Is a corvette an entry level car? nope. Sports luxury? nope. Compact sedan? Ah nope.
I will add that in the IS300 SportCross's case, I'm down to treadwear indicators in 10K once again (with good reason), so I really think I'm getting full benefit out of it, manual or no!
Point: a 250 with less pony and more weight than the outgoing IS is a marketing mistake, IMO. If they can improve the handling dynamics substantially, then maybe, but I'm driving it now, and I find it hard to believe they can improve it that much. And contrary to some post way back, making the thing wider (and longer) isn't going to improve its reflexes any. And it's already stickier than wet snot...
I will at least look at the IS250 automatic if the price is right. I will consider it an alternative to a stripped 325, or a Passat GLX and I don't care if 0-60 is even 8.5 seconds if everything else is great. I will not be driving it hard or drag racing, yet I still would want something with sharper style and handling than an ES330.
Entry level sports lux compact sedan. What in the definition for this segment is beyond your ken?
Since when is a seven-year old (98) Camcord a entry-level sports lux sedan? The fact one is confined to the segment is a reflection on the limitations imposed by the realities of life. For some (the overwhelming majority of car buyers), automatic transmission is one of those requirements, along with 4-doors, around $30-40k etc.. If sportiness is the only pursuit, there are many options in the price range that can be far more sporty than either IS or 3 series; roadsters, for example.
I saw the 350 @ the NY Auto Show this past weekend and I have to admit if there's 1 vehicle that might knock BMW off the top, this is it (A4 is junk, I don't consider it as contender).
It's a damn nice looking car, 300HP, 0-60 less than 6 secs in Automtic (at least that's what the display said). I have to serious consider the 350 when my current lease comes due this time next year.
The IS specs are impressive and will compete against the 3 in every way. The so-called lack of a MT in the IS350 is the single reason this car is being beaten to death. Most MB, Audi, BMW sport sedans sold have slushboxes. If the IS350 has a stick would that make it a better car than the 330i ? Not necessarily ! The handling needs to be there. The suspension needs to be there. And that VDIM needs to be less obtrusive to give the car a better handle on the road.
I agree totally, I'm not one of those that have to have or even want a 3-pedal car. The IS250 having a mbox just underlines why the IS350 should have one. Mercedes did the same thing with the C240 and C320 when they first appeared, having the manual with the smaller engine only. The press squealed like piglets. The coupe and what not is just speculation att. Doesn't matter if G35 sells slower with a mbox it being there is the point.
Funny thing is as a past Lexus owner and a current Audi A4 owner. This vehicle was the one that stood out in my mind when I initially saw it ( too bad you couldn't get inside one). A definite buy with AWD and Hybrid technology in the 2nd year. The driving dynamics will be "ultimately" what will set it apart from BMW and Audi, I'm not even asking to beat it just come close. The reliability is there with lexus, now just move me.
To state the A4 , B7 or B6 is "junk" shows you really haven't either sat or driven in one. The materials, fit an finish are first rate, AWD adds to the vehicle dynamics without making it feel a ton heavier. I enjoy every time I get into my A4, I've never had that feeling in any Lexus I've owned/Leased.
I more than certainly see the A4, and now the A3 SB as competition. On interiors alone, Audi shows most others they still have things to learn by price point.
OTOH, you haven't owned an IS it would seem... ;-)
I was looking on the Japanese Toyota website and was looking at the Century and various cars... among them being the Crown Athlete (nice car, options even include Mark Levinson, etc.). The two variants of engines are a 3.0L V6 and 2.5L V6. I couldn't help but think that since the general specs. of the IS250 are... HP= Greater than 200 hp Torque= Greater than 180 lb-ft ... that the specs. of the Crown Athlete 2.5L V6 (212 hp/258 kW|192 lb-ft/260 N-m) are going to be the same as the Lexus IS250 IF they choose not to tune the engine specifically for the IS250. There is a chance either way, but being that this is the same 2.5L engine it could very well be not tuned for the IS250. On another subject, I do not think that what a particular magazine editor thinks regarding manual/automatic as opposed to what you, the consumer thinks is more important. I am sure that driving a Formula 1 race car is FAR more SPORTING and involving than driving a manual 3-series/A4/etc... Who is to say that the IS350 is not fun just for the fact that it is not YET going to be released as a manual. Time will tell, not speculation. Even if the SEDAN version of the IS350 is not released with a manual, there is the chance that it will be a lot of fun to drive, handles like a dream, and is competitive with manual 3-series (the skill of the driver is more important than the small nuances of the car) and I myself am voting for it. Also, timed downshifts CAN be made with automatic paddle shift cars, just in a different way. Odds are, the IS350 coupe will get a manual, but I won't cry or think less of the car if the 6A paddle shift provides some involving driving!... and neither should anybody else
Didn't mean to step on your toe. I know 4 people with A4's and they've all had extensive visits to the dealer. Ok, you may know 4 who had 0 problems but a "luxury" car is not suppose to be a hit or miss w/ quality.
Since when is a seven-year old (98) Camcord a entry-level sports lux sedan?
Camcord is just a cheap version a TL/ES330.
The fact one is confined to the segment is a reflection on the limitations imposed by the realities of life. For some (the overwhelming majority of car buyers), automatic transmission is one of those requirements, along with 4-doors, around $30-40k etc.. If sportiness is the only pursuit, there are many options in the price range that can be far more sporty than either IS or 3 series; roadsters, for example.
All the aspects. That's why this segment exists, to provide for all of it - small, nimble, RWD(AWD?), 4 doors, somewhat luxurious, manual, and fun to drive. The whole enchilada.
To state the A4 , B7 or B6 is "junk" shows you really haven't either sat or driven in one. The materials, fit an finish are first rate, AWD adds to the vehicle dynamics without making it feel a ton heavier. I enjoy every time I get into my A4, I've never had that feeling in any Lexus I've owned/Leased.
Yes great interiors. Sexy as hell exterior too, IMHO (best looking compact sports luxury sedan around and has been for years). Super fun and easily tuned turbo motors (though the 2.0 hasn't been chipped yet).
Not a fan of the small interior (I'm small and feel cramped) and dodgy FWD handling. Quattro adds too much weight and is too intrusive in my eyes - next to impossible to even get the car sideways. Not an audi bias as I hate Subaru and BMW's AWD systems too - way too much meddling.
Big issue with the A4, as many echo, horrid reliability. I owned a 1.8T Jetta and that too was fun but the constant trips to the dealer got real old. According to empirical evidence, the a4 is not reliable. you may have experienced something else but statisically, one is more likely to meet up with the dealer while driving a German luxury sedan than if one were in a Japanese car of the same segment.
Still, the A4 B7 is sexy. Damn nice looking. Tad pricey now though...what happened there? ouch.
Time will tell, not speculation. Even if the SEDAN version of the IS350 is not released with a manual, there is the chance that it will be a lot of fun to drive, handles like a dream, and is competitive with manual 3-series
When are you guys gonna stop beating this into the ground? For some enthusiasts, this omission is akin to taking the steering wheel off the car. Yes, to some of us it's that important to enjoy the car. There is no such thing as a fun automatic. And that includes AMGs. Please stop trying to convince the diehards that we should acquiesce to peer pressure and get a slushbox. We're not demanding that you buy a car with a manual or even drive one if you don't want. We simply want the choice. That's it. Like burger king, have it our way. You get a slushie and we get a row-our-own and everybody grins like idiots on valium.
Well, theres no choice if you want an IS350, its an auto only. Perhaps your time would be better spent communicating your discontent to Lexus instead of those of us who do not see an automatic and driving fun as mutually exclusive.
"For some enthusiasts, this omission is akin to taking the steering wheel off the car."
So, would you rather drive a 3-series on a race-track or an BMW/Wiliams F1 car? I guess that choice is up to you isn't it?
"Yes, to some of us it's that important to enjoy the car."
Ditto... nobody can force you something you simply have no preference over, whether it be rational or not.
"There is no such thing as a fun automatic."
I am sorry if this sounds rude/blunt, but this statement speaks volumes of your irrationality!
"We're not demanding that you buy a car with a manual or even drive one if you don't want. We simply want the choice."
EXACTLY!... Time will tell whether it will be an option on the IS350 sedan/coupe... a while ago (1 year or so) did we know what the engine choice of the next generation IS would be? NO. So there is no reason to believe that there will be no IS350, etc. manual option in the future!
I've owned several Lexus, none having any issues, I had oil changes done, 3 lasted well into 100k territory before I sold them. I am truly a fan of Lexus in general.
Also, had a Jetta with the 1.8T, only problem faulty window regulator, replaced under warranty. And yes this is my first Audi A4. I agree with most reliability is a major concern, this year 2005 Audi actually received a "recommended" rating from Consumer reports, don't they check reliability??? I'm not arguing past history, but I go with what I see, first hand, of coarse reference data collected by JD/CR/etc.. I know many owners of VW/Audi products most if not all having no issues.
I'm probably one of the few people that doesn't really have brand loyalty. My buying patterns are more inline with what I need/want at the time. The IS350 caught my eye. But do not discount "who' they are trying to catch.
Yes, I have driven and been inside many IS300s (current model) Actually drove it the first week it arrived. The interior was and is still not on par with the rest of the lexus line, until maybe now with the new model. Cramped interior, get inside an IS300 not much more room if any compared with an A4 or 3-series.
Regardless if this car drives comparable to a German. I'll probably still get it. I'm not one to add performance mods regardless. My point in the matter entirely, is state from your experience what really is, as opposed just trashing something you've never really been in or looked at closely.
Oh, and your not stepping on my toes, I don't own VW/Audi, just expressing some first hand experience.
And I don't know what happened with the pricing from Audi, the 2.0T is roughly 2k-3k higher, granted more powerful engine, seat heaters in the rear (for those cramped adults), roughly 60% new compared with the 05.
Yep, the '04 A4 has gotten the red check from CR. What I've noticed though is that each time the A4 gets a redesign, reliability goes in the toilet, and then improves enough for them to recommend it near the end of its run. The A4 in '96 was rated very poorly for reliability, then improved greatly by '01, only to drop like a brick with the '02 redesign. I know the '04 A4 was recommended, but I dont think the '05 has been rated yet. Audi added a lot of electronics with the refresh, so that may hurt them.
Some of the most loyal customers that keep on buying from the same auto marque are VW buyers. Some of the most dated vehicles out on the roads are VWs(usually high maintenance cars end up 6 feet under in a scrap yard). Overall resale values of VWs are among the best in the industry(I posted this data many months ago on this forum), Extended warranty costs on VWs are not significantly more than for equivalently more reliable(as defined by CR) cars from Honda/Toyota.
In addition I myself and various family members/friends who own/owned VW/Audis have had nothing but good experience with them.
Despite my above argument--I do realize the issues with the current Jetta/Golf. But the Passat has not done as badly in terms of CR reliability ratings. In fact for several years CR rated Passat as the BEST in its class for several years.
"I dont understand Lexus' moves with this car, or the GS really."
Here is my take.
a) The 3.5L/4.6L motors weren't going to be ready in time for the NA debut, so shoo-in the 3L/4.3L in the GS.
b) The IS debuts with the low-end 2.5L and the high-end 3.5L so as not to cannibalize the 3L especially.
c) One-yr later, both the 3.5L and 4.6L motors are ready to roll, add to the model line-up, and give buyers even more choices with 2.5L, 3L, 3.5L, 4.6L motors.
d) Add hybrid powertrain for more torque, *green*, novelty, and even more diverse product offerings.
e) Add coupe, hard-top verts, powerformance tuning (AMG-like) to targeted sections of the lineup. Increase model variability and choices even more...
f) With each new *upgrade*, and over the next 3-4 MYs, create more interest and splash, and continue to add more power to each lineup with hybrid options.
A decade later, they are the undisputed Numero UNO in LUXURY automobiles in the world.... Makes perfect sense to me....
VW buyers are very loyal. But then so are Saab and Volvo buyers. I'm sure reliability ain't the reason though.
Beetles may be still on the road for sure, but Rabbits, Dashers, and older Golfs and Jettas are rare.
Model for model VW resale does not compare with the products the compete with.
I used to work for Carmax (carmax.com) and VW extended warranty costs were significantly more expensive than Honda's. At least 25% more expensive.
Those that love VW really love VW. They are great driving cars and really have that something that makes you want to drive them forever. But with all that brand loyalty, there has to be a reason that even the Europeans are turning their back to VW's latest offerings.
That being said and to get back on topic. I love the new look of the IS. I'm looking forward to getting behind the wheel of a nice manual tranny IS250. The IS aficionado forum said they will start at less than $27k for one that's pretty much loaded. Sign me up.
Does the IS350 have an LSD or did they neuter it like BMW did to the 3 series? How anyone can rant about a stick and not rant about and LSD is sort of strange. If you really drive with intensity you really want both.
Like a bolt of lightning it struck me. This IS350 with a V6 motor is going to be the most powerful Lexus ever by its release date. And you may be able to buy one for just under $42K.
Phew ! The pricier V8 engines in the LS/GS/GX/LX (4.3 and 4.7L) don't even get over the 300hp mark, yet this new 3.5L V6 will. Currently, to get a Lexus with 300+hp motor, you'd have to pony up serious money in the $50K+ range, yet this IS350 will debut for much less. And you can get *most* of the features in the pricier GS and LS in this IS350 (Nav, ML, PCS, Bluetooth, Smart Access, 10 airbags, etc..) and you'll still be under $45K. Someone do the math and tell me if this won't be a good deal.
The hybrid variant of this motor in the GS450h is said to generate "well in excess of 300hp". Well, how 'bout like 375HP (300 gas + 75 battery). Would that not be sum'thing, eh !
Question is whether Lexus can tune the 4.6L V8 motor in the GS460 and LS460 to the 400HP mark. Would love to see a 400HP LS460, cos I think it would kick the S500's butt.
Lexus is gonna look more like MB/BMW with so many powerful sedans.... Can't wait....
All competitive speculation aside, I really don't think you'll see a jump from 290 to 400hp on a LS. You'll probably get 340 or so and with the hybrid 450 or so. I don't see making 400hp standard in the LS. Too tame of a model for such a hp jump.
Merc, I see your point... but at first, nobody really believed the Accord V6 would jump from 200 to 240 hp with the redesign, then just recently the Avalon goes from 210 to 280 hp, and that people said it was "too tame a model"....
My point: stranger things have happened. I'll bet the GS/LS 460 are putting out about 360 hp when they arrive.
That is true, but Nissan fired the first shot with a 240hp Altima so the others had no choice. Lexus at the current time seems uninterested in the hp competition, but their new engines will be the test of that. The IS350 will definitely be more powerful than any other 6-cylinder luxury/sports sedan on the market, no matter the price. The only car in the luxury/sport category with more power and 6-cylinders is the M3 (I6).
Now why the Avalon got such a power increase is beyond me. The people I know that have that car couldn't care less about hp ratings, but I guess Toyota is trying to shrug off the old folks image a little and try to get some Maxima and even (gasp!) Passat buyers.
With the last two LS models it seems Lexus always positions it between the two V8 S-Class models. So if the new S450 has 325-340hp the LS will likely have that 360hp, but it won't match the S550 which is part of their (pretty smart) strategy. I just don't see a LS with top of the class hp, at least not in base trim. Now the hybrid is another matter. Though I think 600hp is pure fantasy.
Comments
The IS specs are impressive and will compete against the 3 in every way. The so-called lack of a MT in the IS350 is the single reason this car is being beaten to death. Most MB, Audi, BMW sport sedans sold have slushboxes. If the IS350 has a stick would that make it a better car than the 330i ? Not necessarily ! The handling needs to be there. The suspension needs to be there. And that VDIM needs to be less obtrusive to give the car a better handle on the road.
Pls remember the IS250 comes standard with a traditional 3-pedal MT. I can see the 6MT in the IS350-coupe in a couple of years. Who knows, maybe even sooner in the sedan. I read that many Infiniti dealers are having difficulty selling the manual G35, but selling out the Coupe version with a stick. That makes more sense, doesn't it ? Maybe Lexus will do same. More emphasis on the sporty side in the coupe, and more lux-sport on the sedan part. I guess we'll see the plan unfold by October this year....
And i'm sorry so many of you hate driving so much that you feel where you live (NJ for instance) wouldn't warrant considering handling and performance when buying a car. But then that begs, the question, why not just buy a 98 Camcord and save the extra 20k? Maybe you do care about driving dynamics on your sedan, so in that case, dismissing these factors in competitors doesn't make sense.
And I didn't buy the TSX because I fell in the love with the handling and power of my 330i ZHP. If you don't think there's a marked difference between the 330i ZHP and a 325i SP...well I can't help you. That's your issue.
After taking a few minutes to decode that paragraph (or loose interpretation of one), I think the only thing that was ever mentioned is:
In some areas, a non-manual transmission vehicle is more practical more often than is a manual, whose benefits arent easily exploited.
You act as if a SEDAN cant handle or perform well with an automatic. The point is that for many of us, especially those in congested areas ("NJ for example") driving pleasure and automatic transmissions are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I personally think the IS350 is going to kick [non-permissible content removed].
~alpha
Yes, the IS NEEDS to pander to the mags.
And if you have 5 problems, why fix 3? And make a new one? Is that the new Lexus way?
DrFill
1) No more manual v. automatic argument in here.
2) Lay off the comparisons. This is not a comparisons discussion. No one has driven this vehicle yet.
If your post is not specifically about the upcoming Lexus IS, chances are good that it will disappear, and your posting privileges in this discussion may be revoked.
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Nice to run into you ALPHA. Have a nice day.
And we have been saying this here as well, that Lexus may provide the stick in MY2007 as they did for the 1st-gen IS300 series. There are other variants of the IS coming soon - coupe or hard-top vert, which may also get a 6MT. Besides, its still 6 months to release and anything can still change on the 2006 IS350.
Driving nut here who craves handling, owns current IS and no longer buys manuals.
We exist. Deal with it. [-P
The missing manual in the 350 will end up a press fiasco down the road. I feel it coming like a bus in a tunnel. Unless, of course they announce it as a "coming soon".
What the Lexus customer would actually buy means zero, IMO, in that discussion...
back to what i love about this new car.
no more souped up corolla jokes.
no more boyracer jokes.
no more taillight jokes.
no more slow car jokes.
no more pokemon jokes.
no more it looks like a civic jokes.
no more of a lot of crap that i used to see here on edmunds.
all the lexus haters will just talk about the lack of a manual in the 350. but don't worry. it will come sooner than later hopefully.
and by the way. have any of you seen the back of the new 330i???? that is just the ugliest thing i have ever ever seen next to the G35's back. geezzz. what is that????
grylex
no more cheap looking interior jokes.
by the way. it is obvious manual or not no car in this segment will be able to outrun a IS350 so don't worry about the upcoming 330i comparo. bmw better count on having a more RELIABLE AND CHEAPER 330i than it is right now because it won't have the luxury of outgunning the new IS by a second in the 0-60 dept. you know what i mean??
if you guys want to read a real magazine read Consumer Reports. in recent years they have ripped the 3 series and A4 for a very marginal reliability/maintenance record. while they RECOMMEND practically every lexus even the IS300. 0-60 and 1/4 mile is nice but it isn't everything. i can zoom zoom past lots of people in my 215 hp IS300 with EASE.
grylex
Some of us don't buy cars for how they look. I couldn't care less if the car had a pinwheels and a garfield etched into the trunk. Makes no difference to me. I've owned (and still own) cars I find visually unappealing. It's how they drive that matters to me.
Still bumming that they didn't address me needs. Who knows, maybe by October things will change. Or maybe by March of next year there will be word of the changes I want and then I can get the Lexus instead of a 330i. Shrug...
Lexus announced it already. Whether it fits your own criteria is your own issue.
And i'm sorry so many of you hate driving so much that you feel where you live (NJ for instance) wouldn't warrant considering handling and performance when buying a car. But then that begs, the question, why not just buy a 98 Camcord and save the extra 20k?
So what's the deal with having the back seat adding to the weight of your supposedly sporty car? For the amount of money you paid, if you don't get the corvette coupe, you may as well get a 98 Cancord and save the extra 20k. How does that sound?
If you don't think there's a marked difference between the 330i ZHP and a 325i SP...well I can't help you. That's your issue.
If you don't think there is a marked difference between a FWD family sedan and RWD IS . . . well I can't help you. That's your issue.
my God that is a shocking confession. A current IS driving enthusiast wh had it with manuals.
As you may notice from this forum, as we stick guys begin losing the market share data we do become a bit more vocal.
I intend to buy a stick IS/BMW3 in model year 2025, if they do exist by then!
I believe from what I've read DSG will be the beginning. We'll see.
But I calculated that my time driving is spent with perhaps a maximum of 7% selecting gears for performance's sake. Of that, probably 50% is habit, and 50% yields results of signifigance. Any higher, and I'd be in jail or dead.
That leaves me with at least 93% of my total driving time around town and on freeways and such where I derive no practical or even visceral benefit from running through a H pattern. Whereas I used to love to do it just for doing it, I don't need it anymore for routine driving.
Doesn't change the fact that the press will likely spit collectively at the idea of a sports car with no available stick...
;-)
Entry level sports lux compact sedan. What in the definition for this segment is beyond your ken?
Is a corvette an entry level car? nope. Sports luxury? nope. Compact sedan? Ah nope.
Are you trying to be obtuse?
Point: a 250 with less pony and more weight than the outgoing IS is a marketing mistake, IMO. If they can improve the handling dynamics substantially, then maybe, but I'm driving it now, and I find it hard to believe they can improve it that much. And contrary to some post way back, making the thing wider (and longer) isn't going to improve its reflexes any. And it's already stickier than wet snot...
I will consider it an alternative to a stripped 325, or a Passat GLX and I don't care if 0-60 is even 8.5 seconds if everything else is great.
I will not be driving it hard or drag racing, yet I still would want something with sharper style and handling than an ES330.
Since when is a seven-year old (98) Camcord a entry-level sports lux sedan? The fact one is confined to the segment is a reflection on the limitations imposed by the realities of life. For some (the overwhelming majority of car buyers), automatic transmission is one of those requirements, along with 4-doors, around $30-40k etc.. If sportiness is the only pursuit, there are many options in the price range that can be far more sporty than either IS or 3 series; roadsters, for example.
It's a damn nice looking car, 300HP, 0-60 less than 6 secs in Automtic (at least that's what the display said). I have to serious consider the 350 when my current lease comes due this time next year.
I agree totally, I'm not one of those that have to have or even want a 3-pedal car. The IS250 having a mbox just underlines why the IS350 should have one. Mercedes did the same thing with the C240 and C320 when they first appeared, having the manual with the smaller engine only. The press squealed like piglets. The coupe and what not is just speculation att. Doesn't matter if G35 sells slower with a mbox it being there is the point.
M
To state the A4 , B7 or B6 is "junk" shows you really haven't either sat or driven in one. The materials, fit an finish are first rate, AWD adds to the vehicle dynamics without making it feel a ton heavier. I enjoy every time I get into my A4, I've never had that feeling in any Lexus I've owned/Leased.
I more than certainly see the A4, and now the A3 SB as competition. On interiors alone, Audi shows most others they still have things to learn by price point.
OTOH, you haven't owned an IS it would seem...
;-)
I couldn't help but think that since the general specs. of the IS250 are...
HP= Greater than 200 hp
Torque= Greater than 180 lb-ft
... that the specs. of the Crown Athlete 2.5L V6 (212 hp/258 kW|192 lb-ft/260 N-m) are going to be the same as the Lexus IS250 IF they choose not to tune the engine specifically for the IS250. There is a chance either way, but being that this is the same 2.5L engine it could very well be not tuned for the IS250.
On another subject, I do not think that what a particular magazine editor thinks regarding manual/automatic as opposed to what you, the consumer thinks is more important. I am sure that driving a Formula 1 race car is FAR more SPORTING and involving than driving a manual 3-series/A4/etc...
Who is to say that the IS350 is not fun just for the fact that it is not YET going to be released as a manual. Time will tell, not speculation. Even if the SEDAN version of the IS350 is not released with a manual, there is the chance that it will be a lot of fun to drive, handles like a dream, and is competitive with manual 3-series (the skill of the driver is more important than the small nuances of the car) and I myself am voting for it. Also, timed downshifts CAN be made with automatic paddle shift cars, just in a different way. Odds are, the IS350 coupe will get a manual, but I won't cry or think less of the car if the 6A paddle shift provides some involving driving!... and neither should anybody else
Didn't mean to step on your toe. I know 4 people with A4's and they've all had extensive visits to the dealer. Ok, you may know 4 who had 0 problems but a "luxury" car is not suppose to be a hit or miss w/ quality.
Camcord is just a cheap version a TL/ES330.
The fact one is confined to the segment is a reflection on the limitations imposed by the realities of life. For some (the overwhelming majority of car buyers), automatic transmission is one of those requirements, along with 4-doors, around $30-40k etc.. If sportiness is the only pursuit, there are many options in the price range that can be far more sporty than either IS or 3 series; roadsters, for example.
All the aspects. That's why this segment exists, to provide for all of it - small, nimble, RWD(AWD?), 4 doors, somewhat luxurious, manual, and fun to drive. The whole enchilada.
In this segment right now it's pretty limited.
Yes great interiors. Sexy as hell exterior too, IMHO (best looking compact sports luxury sedan around and has been for years). Super fun and easily tuned turbo motors (though the 2.0 hasn't been chipped yet).
Not a fan of the small interior (I'm small and feel cramped) and dodgy FWD handling. Quattro adds too much weight and is too intrusive in my eyes - next to impossible to even get the car sideways. Not an audi bias as I hate Subaru and BMW's AWD systems too - way too much meddling.
Big issue with the A4, as many echo, horrid reliability. I owned a 1.8T Jetta and that too was fun but the constant trips to the dealer got real old. According to empirical evidence, the a4 is not reliable. you may have experienced something else but statisically, one is more likely to meet up with the dealer while driving a German luxury sedan than if one were in a Japanese car of the same segment.
Still, the A4 B7 is sexy. Damn nice looking. Tad pricey now though...what happened there? ouch.
When are you guys gonna stop beating this into the ground? For some enthusiasts, this omission is akin to taking the steering wheel off the car. Yes, to some of us it's that important to enjoy the car. There is no such thing as a fun automatic. And that includes AMGs. Please stop trying to convince the diehards that we should acquiesce to peer pressure and get a slushbox. We're not demanding that you buy a car with a manual or even drive one if you don't want. We simply want the choice. That's it. Like burger king, have it our way. You get a slushie and we get a row-our-own and everybody grins like idiots on valium.
~alpha
"For some enthusiasts, this omission is akin to taking the steering wheel off the car."
So, would you rather drive a 3-series on a race-track or an BMW/Wiliams F1 car? I guess that choice is up to you isn't it?
"Yes, to some of us it's that important to enjoy the car."
Ditto... nobody can force you something you simply have no preference over, whether it be rational or not.
"There is no such thing as a fun automatic."
I am sorry if this sounds rude/blunt, but this statement speaks volumes of your irrationality!
"We're not demanding that you buy a car with a manual or even drive one if you don't want. We simply want the choice."
EXACTLY!... Time will tell whether it will be an option on the IS350 sedan/coupe... a while ago (1 year or so) did we know what the engine choice of the next generation IS would be? NO. So there is no reason to believe that there will be no IS350, etc. manual option in the future!
Also, had a Jetta with the 1.8T, only problem faulty window regulator, replaced under warranty. And yes this is my first Audi A4. I agree with most reliability is a major concern, this year 2005 Audi actually received a "recommended" rating from Consumer reports, don't they check reliability??? I'm not arguing past history, but I go with what I see, first hand, of coarse reference data collected by JD/CR/etc.. I know many owners of VW/Audi products most if not all having no issues.
I'm probably one of the few people that doesn't really have brand loyalty. My buying patterns are more inline with what I need/want at the time. The IS350 caught my eye. But do not discount "who' they are trying to catch.
Yes, I have driven and been inside many IS300s (current model) Actually drove it the first week it arrived. The interior was and is still not on par with the rest of the lexus line, until maybe now with the new model. Cramped interior, get inside an IS300 not much more room if any compared with an A4 or 3-series.
Regardless if this car drives comparable to a German. I'll probably still get it. I'm not one to add performance mods regardless. My point in the matter entirely, is state from your experience what really is, as opposed just trashing something you've never really been in or looked at closely.
Oh, and your not stepping on my toes, I don't own VW/Audi, just expressing some first hand experience.
And I don't know what happened with the pricing from Audi, the 2.0T is roughly 2k-3k higher, granted more powerful engine, seat heaters in the rear (for those cramped adults), roughly 60% new compared with the 05.
Some of the most loyal customers that keep on buying from the same auto marque are VW buyers. Some of the most dated vehicles out on the roads are VWs(usually high maintenance cars end up 6 feet under in a scrap yard). Overall resale values of VWs are among the best in the industry(I posted this data many months ago on this forum), Extended warranty costs on VWs are not significantly more than for equivalently more reliable(as defined by CR) cars from Honda/Toyota.
In addition I myself and various family members/friends who own/owned VW/Audis have had nothing but good experience with them.
Despite my above argument--I do realize the issues with the current Jetta/Golf. But the Passat has not done as badly in terms of CR reliability ratings. In fact for several years CR rated Passat as the BEST in its class for several years.
Here is my take.
a) The 3.5L/4.6L motors weren't going to be ready in time for the NA debut, so shoo-in the 3L/4.3L in the GS.
b) The IS debuts with the low-end 2.5L and the high-end 3.5L so as not to cannibalize the 3L especially.
c) One-yr later, both the 3.5L and 4.6L motors are ready to roll, add to the model line-up, and give buyers even more choices with 2.5L, 3L, 3.5L, 4.6L motors.
d) Add hybrid powertrain for more torque, *green*, novelty, and even more diverse product offerings.
e) Add coupe, hard-top verts, powerformance tuning (AMG-like) to targeted sections of the lineup. Increase model variability and choices even more...
f) With each new *upgrade*, and over the next 3-4 MYs, create more interest and splash, and continue to add more power to each lineup with hybrid options.
A decade later, they are the undisputed Numero UNO in LUXURY automobiles in the world.... Makes perfect sense to me....
Beetles may be still on the road for sure, but Rabbits, Dashers, and older Golfs and Jettas are rare.
Model for model VW resale does not compare with the products the compete with.
I used to work for Carmax (carmax.com) and VW extended warranty costs were significantly more expensive than Honda's. At least 25% more expensive.
Those that love VW really love VW. They are great driving cars and really have that something that makes you want to drive them forever. But with all that brand loyalty, there has to be a reason that even the Europeans are turning their back to VW's latest offerings.
That being said and to get back on topic. I love the new look of the IS. I'm looking forward to getting behind the wheel of a nice manual tranny IS250. The IS aficionado forum said they will start at less than $27k for one that's pretty much loaded. Sign me up.
Phew ! The pricier V8 engines in the LS/GS/GX/LX (4.3 and 4.7L) don't even get over the 300hp mark, yet this new 3.5L V6 will. Currently, to get a Lexus with 300+hp motor, you'd have to pony up serious money in the $50K+ range, yet this IS350 will debut for much less. And you can get *most* of the features in the pricier GS and LS in this IS350 (Nav, ML, PCS, Bluetooth, Smart Access, 10 airbags, etc..) and you'll still be under $45K. Someone do the math and tell me if this won't be a good deal.
The hybrid variant of this motor in the GS450h is said to generate "well in excess of 300hp". Well, how 'bout like 375HP (300 gas + 75 battery). Would that not be sum'thing, eh !
Question is whether Lexus can tune the 4.6L V8 motor in the GS460 and LS460 to the 400HP mark. Would love to see a 400HP LS460, cos I think it would kick the S500's butt.
Lexus is gonna look more like MB/BMW with so many powerful sedans.... Can't wait....
M
The more reason the next LS460 better be close to that 400HP mark !
M
My point: stranger things have happened. I'll bet the GS/LS 460 are putting out about 360 hp when they arrive.
~alpha
Now why the Avalon got such a power increase is beyond me. The people I know that have that car couldn't care less about hp ratings, but I guess Toyota is trying to shrug off the old folks image a little and try to get some Maxima and even (gasp!) Passat buyers.
With the last two LS models it seems Lexus always positions it between the two V8 S-Class models. So if the new S450 has 325-340hp the LS will likely have that 360hp, but it won't match the S550 which is part of their (pretty smart) strategy. I just don't see a LS with top of the class hp, at least not in base trim. Now the hybrid is another matter. Though I think 600hp is pure fantasy.
M
Are they designing these cars in a vacuum?