"Of course, for the boyracers, bragging rights associated with 0-60 dump-clutch is an important marketting point"
For me driving manual is about active driving. About having control. Improved winter driving. Better performance. And lower fuel consumption. Does that make me a boy-racer?
What kind a lunatic brags about using a clutch pedal? Sort of like bragging about owning a Panasonic Microwave versus a Sanyo.
Many people forget the mission of Lexus. First and foremost, the company is the LUXURY arm of Toyota. Which means luxury will always be top of the goal, followed by everything else.
The IS350 is a luxury-sport sedan, with bias to BOTH. This car will have a lot of bragging rights of itself. Its 3.5L V6 motor is tops for a normally aspirated 6-cylinder motor with over 300hp. Definitely the top dog if its torque is 275+ Ibft. An extermely efficient DI vvt-i motor, doing high 20s mpg fuel efficiency similar to a 4-banger 2L motor, etc. Consider many of its standard features and options that you'd find on top-of-the line luxury cars (smart access, knee/side/front/side airbags, cooled/heated seats, etc) on a compact sedan. You may also want to put this car up against the $50K RL. Which car would win out ? I'd take the smaller, more nimble, more powerful, faster, better handling (I project), and certanly much better looking IS350. There is a lot going for the IS than meets the eye.
Priced close to the top of the line 330i and the RL, the IS350 will do quite well, altho' Lexus projects it to be a low volume seller at ~10K units a year. I'd bet they'll sell much more than they project.
The first IS300 did well in magazine comparisons without a manual offering. As I said before, it even beat out a 3-series in comparison tests without a manual!
"The first IS300 did well in magazine comparisons without a manual offering. As I said before, it even beat out a 3-series in comparison tests without a manual!"
Not.. really. The magazines moaned about the lack of a manual in most of the first drives (just as C&D is already doing with the IS350), and I cant really remember a comparison that it actually won outright. I know it lost to G35 in a head to head, and I remember it coming in 3rd or 4th place a few times. Nobody remembers the 3rd or 4th place finishers, however.
Isn't there any website run by Toyota/Lexus where people can complain about available options? Without a true 6 speed manual tranny, the IS will always be a step behind BMW no matter how much Hp the engine produces. The 3.5L V6 sounds like a great engine and a manual tranny will be icing on the cake
Pick one: (a) The marketing folk think that saying "over 200 hp" sounds hot and will satisfy everyone when it comes out at 201. Bonus: they further think that at a $29,990 price, no one will call it a "$30K entry price".
(b) There are different legal and emissions testing requirements between Europe and the US. Engine testing on the European version is further along, and they are comfortable being more definitive there.
(c) The US version will be tuned differently, and we will be pleasantly surprised when "greater than 200" in the US turns out to be re-tuned to 225 from the same engine.
(d) Only pathetic losers would worry about this, instead of waiting until the fall - there's no car before then anyway. :-)
I believe (a), want (c), and worry that it's really (d). ;-)
Ultimately the way it feels, drives, handles, and performs will matter to more people than whether or not it has a manual transmission.
do you not understand that a manual and an automatic tranny version of the same car will drive and handle completely differently?
To compare the TSX to the IS is a joke! huh...let's see FWD and basically a dressed up Accord with a 4-banger you gotta rev to 8000RPM to get any acceleration out of vs. a RWD, V6 powered sport sedan. Huh..no contest.
i've not driven the IS250 but I know I'd buy a TSX 6MT over an e46 325i MT5. Yep, said it. wouldn't buy an e46 325i if it cost 5k less than a TSX. That's how little I like that car. The TSX 6mt is smooth as silk and that engine is way more eager and fun than BMW's overrated inline 6. I'd rather drop 26k on a TSX if I were forced to get either of those underpowered cars.
Many people forget the mission of Lexus. First and foremost, the company is the LUXURY arm of Toyota. Which means luxury will always be top of the goal, followed by everything else.
Maybe you should go to lexus and listen to the now archived speech from the nyias. Lexus' spokesperson clearly said the IS is designed to be a leader in the entry-level sports luxury market. That's the market with the 3, G35, TL, A4. They key in all of that...SPORTS. He didn't say compact luxury market (something the ES330 has a nice grip on). So maybe you should talk with Lexus as they're claiming the 3/G35 are in their sights. My guess is, Lexus scope is being peered through by Mr. Magoos.
ll out the TSX is quick. What about it around town driving? It's a dog. I've test driven a 6-speed and the thing can't get out of it's own way at even 3/4 throttle!
What does around town driving have to do with anything? i've driven a few 6 speed TSXes and I always kept the revs over 4k. Why not, the thing's got a redline thousand higher than that? And it was silky smooth (something nobody can say about the rough 3.5 in the Infiniti lineup).
That's the disadvantage of a tiny 4-banger with very little torque. Maybe this is the reason it's sales are kinda on the small side.
they're selling 25-30k a year. Lexus hopes to move 45k IS250/350s. Two models, 50% more sales target. but wait the TL, which is really the IS350's comp sells 70k models a year. Hmm, those lackluster hondas move close to 100k units a year.
The IS250 with a manual maybe around the same 0-60 as the TSX manual, but geez at least the IS250 will be a pleasure to drive around town when you're not pushing the pedal to WOT.
Pure speculation.
To get anything out of the TSX, you gotta drive it like you stole it!
IMHO, that true of EVERY car.
Also, how fast do you really think the BMW 325i is going to be? I bet it's 0-60 doesn't turn out to be less than the low 7-second range.
What are you on? The current 325i runs to 60 in 6.8-7.0 with a manual. The new one has a nice HP and torque jump (akin to the power in the current 330i) and a slight weight gain but now equipped with a 6 speed.
The whole manual tranny thing is blown way out of proportion. Manual 0-60 is a marketting gimmick. How many dump-clutch starts can you have before you shred the clutch?
Have you driven a manual car hard? Do you understand the feel of a perfectly timed downshift before hitting the corner? get the torque up but have the power to leave the corner at WOT and room to accelerate up to say 75 (freeway speeds) in a blink?
Much more of practical value is automatic 5-60 running start.
Yeah lets go do that with our entry lux cars. you pick an auto in the entry lux class and I'll stick with a 6mt 330i. I'll slip into first as we roll and rip it up to 30 and on to 60 without a problem. Your car will still be in second - even with a silly tiptronic/steptronic/wannabe manuamatic. You will slowly accelerate away.
In fact just last night at around 2 am I was rolling up on a light that was red but I knew green was coming...slipped to first and like a slingshot I took off. Nothing dangerous or illegal but a sure nice feeling. A feeling one can't get in a manumatic.
These Slushbox-lovers will make a thousand excuses for why they can't drive, and why a rack of puddin' is better (Or more practical, anyway) than a REAL tranny.
If you want Oatmeal, get a Buick or sumpin'!
Why build a cool car, than knock the legs out from under it? WHAT IS THE POINT!!
The IS CANNOT be a SPORTS-sedan, because the tranny knocks most of the sports out of it.
There are Luxury-sports sedans, and Sports luxury sedans. I guess Lexus can't decide, so it will try to appease all of the people some of the time.
I don't know. EVERY time I sit in the driver's seat of a automatic car, I yawn right at the gearshift.
A good driver in a stick will rip an auto to shreds not sometimes, ALL THE TIME! Don't come here and turn this place into Fantasy Island!
I made this here forum with the hopes that this would be a place to rejoice, not to cry in my beer.
Auto tranny Vettes and M5's are crimes against nature!!
I have a 6 speed TSX and it is a great car. Anyone who owns a 6speeed will give you ythe same opinion. The interior is a benchmark of ergonomics. Really good. Engine could use 20HP more or moretorque, but for anything other than racing, it is wonderful.
Current IS owners: what do you think of the dramatic changes in IS guages? I really like the new ones; old ones were kind of boy-racer?
Had they offered a 6-speed on the 3.5 they would have caused the germans many sleepless nights. Now ,the germans will be prepared for the IS manual in 2 years and go one step farther when it arrives. Shame. Most people can never drive their car to the limits, but having a stick is sweet.
Even though most american people don't understand the joy of rowing through their own gears, it is still the enthusiasts that appreciate such experience that create the IMAGE of the car.
Honestly, how many Porsche owners do actually know about their cars, and are true enthusiasts? Not many. Most people buy a porsche as a status symbol. But still, Porsche got such an outstanding (if somewhat overrated at this point) image of performance because they have offered cars that satisfied true enthusiasts for decades.
I bet the porsche club people are only a small portion of the total porsche buyers. BUT if porsche stopped making cars that satisfy these guys, they wouldn't be able to lure the wall-street types for long. The reputation will die out eventually.
Same thing with Bimmer. I see tons of auto 325xi's around here. They are underpowered, and rather heavy. Coupled with the slush box, they can't be all that fun to drive. BUT I bet the owners still feel mighty good about owning the "ultimate driving machine". And where did that come from? Because Bimmer makes cars that carry the same name designation that actually deserve such moniker.
So let's be clear. Is lexus REALLY shooting for 3/G35? or are they just trying to make a smaller version of TL?
Obviously you have not had a modern learning automatic. Gas-pedal-triggered down shifts and double downshifts are common occurence after a modern learning automatic transmission learns your driving style.
Why build a cool car, than knock the legs out from under it? WHAT IS THE POINT!!
The IS CANNOT be a SPORTS-sedan, because the tranny knocks most of the sports out of it.
Tell AMG most of their cars are not sports-sedans.
I don't know. EVERY time I sit in the driver's seat of a automatic car, I yawn right at the gearshift.
You haven't sat in enough cars.
A good driver in a stick will rip an auto to shreds not sometimes, ALL THE TIME! Don't come here and turn this place into Fantasy Island!
A really good driver uses a pair of pedals on the steering wheel, not a stick. Slushy dummy torque converter is only one implementational detail in the grand scheme of automatic transmissions; the torque converter can be made less slippy with different compound formulation, the shift program can be made smarter (especially when vehicle dynamic control is in the equation, integration with automatic cars is just so much more straight forward than stick ones. In fact, for cars with tremendous amount of torque to the wheels, automatics are almost the only way to go); fluid-driven impellor torque converter can ultimately be replaced with something else, such as SMG, which despite its name is actually an automatic transmission because it does not have a manual clutch pedal or a stick; on top of that, SMG box can be designed to automaticly upshift for you as well when red lining; in other words, it's thoroughly automatic; just without a fluid impeller-based torque converter.
I think there's even a term for those people in marketing, the people who are trend setters.
You know there might be a comparo where only the sticks are invited. Or one where the points are deducted from the autos.
The GS and IS platforms are related, I think. Reading the reviews of GS makes me think IS is more C than 3. Maybe that's why they decide not to have a stick.
I have been WAITING FOR DAYS for the topic to change from NO MANUAL TRANSMISSION on the IS350 - and how Lexus should not even bother trying to compete with the IS line-up (hell, don't even unload them at the port, waste of time). From reading this and other threads, the BMW faithful seem very nervous about this car's chances against the 3 series - and seem to be grasping for anything negative to beat their drums about. (If I were in the BMW camp, I would be complaining about spending major $$ for a car with the CD changer in the glove box) If, as has been repeated for DAYS, you do not like the available options - you are lucky that BMW, 350Z, Lotus, or whatever alternatives are easily available. Enjoy. Personally, I would like to find out people's impressions of ALL aspects of the new IS line-up (vice DAYS of bitching about a manual tranny). (I see the IS as a "sporty" sedan and possible replacement of my '03 TL - a chance to have "RL-level" features without a 50K price). If my initial impressions of this car hold true (pass the Oct intro), I plan to buy one...(250 AWD) and it will be an auto...(I love manual transmissions/rowing my own - and I have a GREAT RX-8 in the garage for that :>) 0-60 times? I can not tell the difference between 5.8 and 6.4 or whatever - and since there are no dry lakebeds or dragstrips on my way to work - I do not care if it is 6/7/8 sec, or whatever it turns out to be...I am sure I will be able to merge into highway traffic and get out of the way of other cars, etc. PLEASE, can we discuss aspects of the car other than manual trans and 0-60? Maybe just a little while? Pretty please...
Being that I made this forum, I will vent. When I stop venting, that means I have lost all interest/emotion in this car, and will spend my time on more interesting vehicles, like the G/3.
I will tell AMG, and anyone else what I think of 500-600HP cars with slushboxs. Be very glad to!
If you want to make luxury cars very fast, or super fast, that's fine. Just because something is fast, that doesn't make it a sports car/sedan. Porsche Cayenne Turbo is VERY fast! Is that a sports-sedan? Or a Sports-truck? An S65? Is that a sports-sedan or a luxury car?
You can put every computer known to man into it, to make the (weak or lazy) driver FEEL like he has a sportscar, but it ain't a sportscar.
It's been castrated.
These cars can be fun, and fast, and easy to drive. This may be considered "progress". I call them queer.
The G and 3 have advanced the sports-sedan class. The IS COULD'VE taken THEM to the next level, but has chosen not to.
Driving is not a video game! Keep your paddles to your SIMULATORS and other high-tech games. Leave the driving to me!
Brightness
To dispell the any true ignorance, I sold new cars for 5 years, have owned more than a couple, have raced several, and been in the company of some very wealthy associates, with some pretty pricey, superpowered rides with Super-SLUSHBOX STD. So I've probably been in a more diverse pallette of vehicles than you, my friend.
If you want a SPORTSCAR/SEDAN, as Porsche says, there is no substitute!!
Maybe Lexus will hear the cries of some, jack up the power of the base to 225, get a stick into the full-bore model in Spring '06, and end this argument that should never have come to this in the first place.
I'm interested in an auto. But if the IS250 is high 7 seconds with a manual, you wonder how bad the auto is going to be.
In commute traffic around here, you're stopping at a light every .2 of a mile. However, there are occasions when you want to jump into a gap when you turn right into the main road.
If the IS250 auto doesn't have enough low end torque, it might be tough to go from a stopped position into 50 MPH traffic safely without really cutting someone off or forcing them to brake.
I said "did well in magazine comparisons". What I did not say is that it got #1 in all of them. But I do know it got #1 in one Road & Track comparison test with a automatic. And in it's first year(before the manual came out) did it not rate in the top 3 in numerous comparison tests? Yes, the magazines moaned about the lack of a manual transmission, but ultimately it didn't affect the car much. And if you have ever looked past the stupid #1, #2, #3, etc. ratings do you notice how stupid half the time their rating criteria is and how they weigh different aspects of the car? And have you ever noticed how many points ends up seperating the #1 finisher from the #3 finisher? MOst of the time it's like 3-4 points seperating the top 3 or 4 players. What does that say? That all the cars are pretty much equal.
The IS300 ultimately dropped off of magazines radar screens soon after the manual IS300 came out because of the G35. But obviously if the manual was such a big deal, it would have done better against the competition. So, what did magazines get sick of in the car? huh....let's see..could it have been the lack of power? interior space? boy-racer interior?.
"do you not understand that a manual and an automatic tranny version of the same car will drive and handle completely differently? "
You must live on a racetrack. I live on a street with a 25-MPH speed limit. How the handling difference will show up on racetrack at 9/10ths to 10/10ths drivings means diddly squat because out in the real world, a manual equipped IS or a automatic handle pretty much the same!
You say that doing well on comparos and having the image of a true sports sedan doesn't matter to "90% of buyers."
True, if you only count the buyers like you that are already determined to buy a lexus, or something similar. As I said, you are in fact reading between the lines of the comparos to convince yourself that not winning but just being in top three is good enough of a reason to choose IS, and you've already convinced yourself that being a little slower than the competitors on the strait line is also fine.
It's all fine. I'm not advocating that we should all be boy racers. I also understand some people's frustration about this discussion when they REALLY don't care about the manual tranny issue. I'm sure a numbers guy at the toyota executive meeting can always argue that in fact most "traditional" lexus buyers don't care for the manual tranny. True.
My only point is this.
I thought that the new IS was targeting ALSO at the people that DO care about these issues. People that would get an 330i in a heart beat if it wasn't so overpriced and rather unreliable.
It's not just that this particular car lacks manual, it's the statement that Toyota is making on its own view of "performance" and "passion". Apparently there are a few people that don't agree with that view.
Aside from the continuance of the manual transmission issue, people are also harping on the IS250s sluggishness with the 6 speed auto. This, without anyone having driven the vehicle, or actual times from any publications. This, despite that the BMW 325i, with its extra half litre of displacement, manages but 14 more horses and 1 extra foot pound of twist. And dont cry me the RPM river either... the IS250s motor peaks at a usable 3800 RPM on the torque curve.
And besides, why do people care about the 6 speed auto anyway? Doesnt everyone in here require a manual transmission to live?
My fearless prediction is low to mid 7s for the IS250 manual, high 7s or 8 flat with the 6A, and low eights with 6A/AWD.
Gosh! I think people should ease up!
Honestely, having spent time in the new 3s interior, and gawked at the gorgeous IS350 on display at NY Auto Show for nearly 15 minutes, by far the car I'd prefer to spend time in is the IS. And I dont mind a well executed 6A, especially when coupled with a 300 hp V6, 45 more than anything BMW offers.
I'm more interested to see how this vehicle drives than anything else.
You will get over this, DrFill. The new IS looks very promising with/without a MT. There are many good things to like about it as well. I have been looking at the glass-is-half-full aspect, while some of you have been consumed with the half-empty part. C'mon of it already.... This car has another 6 months to get here. If the 3 and G are so damn good, why would anyone even bother to buy any other car besides these two ? The IS will compete, and Lexus will make a boat load of money. That's why they are in business isn't it ? It's not to please a small section of auto rags who have already crowned the 3 as the defacto leader even without seeing/testing an IS. That is not a crowd you wanna pander to, if I were Lexus. I say to heck with them. Majority of Lexus buyers/owners could care less about how their cars compare to a Bimmer. They want a reliable and luxurious sedan/truck for their transportation. Isn't that what these automobiles are for anyway ?
For me, I have said it for upteenth time. I'd wait to drive BOTH the IS and the 3 before making my decision to buy. I am not just pontificating about this car. I mean to buy one, and I am open-minded enough to give my choices a fair chance to earn my money.
"and you've already convinced yourself that being a little slower than the competitors on the strait line is also fine."
Yeah, being a little slower is fine. Why? Because even if you pick the fastest, you're not going to be the fastest for long. Something faster is just a short time away. Also, what is a few tenths of a second? I mean really, a 1/2 second faster car in the 0-60 translates to about a 1/2 car lead at the 60 mile marker! Big deal! What do I prefer? A all around good sports sedan. Competent handling, good acceleration, good steering & brakes, good seat comfort & support, a great engine/tranny combo, safety features, and quality. Not one car is going to give you everything, so you have to pick and choose what is most important and pick accordingly. If you live on a racetrack, like someone does, it's best to pick a manual, because that's the only place a 1/2 second quicker 0-60 time is going to mean anything.
"I thought that the new IS was targeting ALSO at the people that DO care about these issues. People that would get an 330i in a heart beat if it wasn't so overpriced and rather unreliable. "
Does the IS350 really need a manual to target 330i buyers? To put that in perspective think about the reality that not every 330i owner has a manual transmission in their car and is probably not looking for one in their next car either. Today, seriously, what would you think are the proportion of 330i owners that buy manuals? I would peg it about 20-25% tops.
"It's not just that this particular car lacks manual, it's the statement that Toyota is making on its own view of "performance" and "passion". Apparently there are a few people that don't agree with that view."
By that regards, maybe BMW should only make manual transmission equipped cars. Maybe then they could really show passion!
Let's not forget, as with the last IS300, Toyota didn't make a announcement about a manual transmission until close to launch. SO you never know.
"True, if you only count the buyers like you that are already determined to buy a lexus, or something similar. "
At this point I'm convinced to buy a LExus. I can't buy a manual so this whole ridiculous manual thing is pointless(Living in NJ and having a manual is pointless anyway) plus I'm not buying a BMW with that hideous interior and banglized exterior and the only real cars I would consider are those from Japan and at this moment the IS looks to be by far the best. The G35 is a little big and the interior blows, not to mention it has 280+ overrated horsepower, and Acura has nothing to compete with a car like the IS. phlease don't bring up the Acura Accord.
"As I said, you are in fact reading between the lines of the comparos to convince yourself that not winning but just being in top three is good enough of a reason to choose IS"
I'm not convincing myself that being in the top 3 is good enough. The simple fact is it is good enough. Ever see the scores and what point spread there is between #1 and #3 or even #1 and last place? Comparison tests mean very little, you shouldn't need to convince yourself of that! do you read what their likes and dislikes are? Sometimes they make no sense at all. Besides, are you simply just looking to pick what car places #1 in comparison tests? That's what it seems like a lot of posters want-that if the IS350 doesn't post #1 they won't buy it. Personally, that's a stupid way to buy a car. And then what do you do when one magazine places a IS350 #1, one places it #2, one places it #3? What happens when in 2007, a new G35 comes out and it places #1, do you go trade in your IS to buy a G35 because it's now better?
Agree with everything you said. Furthermore, if a car wins a comparo with the manual version because it posts a couple 1/10th second faster 0-60 with a dump clutch vs. the runner-up with an automatic, the boyracer would have to bet he can shift as fast as the professional tester and that he doesn't mind the tranny blows up in puff of smoke every 3 months. For the 99% of us who buy automatic anyway or are professionals in fields other than shifting trannies all day long or can't be bothered with concentrating on executing perfect shifts every time (especially when the big mack truck is bearing down on you from behind while you have to dodge that damn stalled manual car in front of you), the ranking posted by a manual 330i is perfectly irrelevent. If a 330i automatic out-ranks an automatic IS350, I might be interested.
"Majority of Lexus buyers/owners could care less about how their cars compare to a Bimmer. They want a reliable and luxurious sedan/truck for their transportation. Isn't that what these automobiles are for anyway ?"
And the vast majority of those people own ES and RX330s. Lexus has no trouble moving the ES, a car that usually gets ranked near last place when anyone actually bothers to include one. What Lexus DOES NOT sell a lot of is IS and GS. Its critical that they get all aspects of these cars correct if they even want to compete with Acura and Infiniti which sell more cars in the segment than they do, and especially if they have any hope at all of even touching Germany.
"Its critical that they get all aspects of these cars correct if they even want to compete with Acura and Infiniti which sell more cars in the segment than they do"
All aspects correct? What car has *all aspects* correct?
Does the 3-series have all aspects correct? Well let's see no.
Does the G35 have all aspects correct? No.
Does the Audi A4? Well no.
Why Lexus does not sell a lot of current generation IS300's is not because of the lack of a manual transmission plain and simple. Is it soo hard to see that the IS300 is a failure for other reasons??? If having a manual meant everything in this class, the C-class would be a failure. Is it? The G35 would have been a failure in it's first year? Were/are they?
Does Acura and INfiniti really sell more cars in this segment than Lexus?
I mean Acura has the TL in this segment. I wouldn't really say the TSX is in the segment since it sells in a narrow price range of $27K to $29K.
Even if you count the TSX, that makes the TSX and TL selling about 100K units annually. Let's face it though, the TL competes against the ES330 also. Same with the INfiniti G35. Since they dropped the I35, the G35 currently competes against the ES330 as well as the IS300.
TSX/TL about 100K units annually.
Infiniti G35 about 50K to 60K annually.
Lexus IS300 and ES330 about 80K units annually.
So a new IS250/350 & ES330 combo if it sells at the numbers Lexus thinks and counting for some cannabilization of ES330 sales could most certainly sell above 100K a month. And that would be at a higher average price point than either Acura or Infiniti.
And I would say to you that the Lexus' grand plan is much like MBs. The next LS and its other variant (the 5L GT) will provide the halo effect to other lower-classed Lexi in dealer showrooms. DO not look at these releases in isolation. They are part of a grand plan. Next year there'll be the GS450h, LS460, GS460, GS350, and IS350 all with 300+ hp. When was the last time Lexus had 5 sedans with 300+bhp ? This is the new Lexus, powerful, refined, quality, and luxurious. Handling and performance will be tuned into these cars, without compromising the Lexus *feel*. That's the goal, that's the plan.
The IS350 with a 3.5L V6 and churning out 300HP is a darn fine product from Lexus. Like brightness and Max opined, if the 255hp 330i/6A outruns a 300+hp IS350/6A, then maybe Lexus has a problem on their hands with this car. Until then, its pure speculation on how Lexus missed the boat on the IS350 w/out a MT. BTW, doesn't the IS250 already have a 6MT ?
Oh, I gotta tell you something, LG. My '03 Matrix with the "Rolla 140hp, 4-banger, is a darn fine car merging with traffic. In fact, the car accelerates much faster than you'd think.
As this site is being currently hijacked by a few automatic/smg fanatics it has become very hard to have some constuctive dialogue about the IS.
The facts are the following:
1)The new IS will be a success in terms of sales volume. It caters more to mainstream customers than the old IS.
2)The new IS is a big disappointment not only by a few BMW devoted ones like myself, but also by many devoted Lexus fans who wanted a serious performance sedan offered by their favorite company. Everybody knows what the Achilles Heel is for the new IS and that inadequacy is a lack of a MT option( I used the initials since I promised in a prior post not to mention that word again).
There is no contradiction in the following statement: "Despite the good chance the IS will sell in higher volumes it still will be a disappointment by many."
The ES330 is highest volume seller among Lexus cars. But the fact that it is a best seller does not make the ES330 great. The same logic applies for the IS.
"Even if you count the TSX, that makes the TSX and TL selling about 100K units annually. Let's face it though, the TL competes against the ES330 also. Same with the INfiniti G35. Since they dropped the I35, the G35 currently competes against the ES330 as well as the IS300."
Are you seriously trying to tell me that somebody would cross shop a G35 with an ES330? Just because these cars are midsize and in the $30s range doesnt make them competitors. The ES330 thrives because the only real competition it has is from Buick, and Toyota's own Avalon. The ES should not be included with the IS when comparing to sales to G and TL.
1. the fact that magazines do clutch dumping is completely irrelevant, since they also do break torquing when they run 0-60 on auto equipped cars. It's not the absolute numerical values that matter, it's the RELATIVE values that matter.
2. I didn't even say that such performance numbers should matter to everyone. I even said that it in fact shouldn't matter to most people's daily use. I'm glad you like the IS as is, and I know there are more people like you than me.
3. Nonetheless, I claim two points.
a. Such performance numbers are essential in newly establishing an image of a bona fide "sports sedan"
b. Lexus failed at appealing to those that want such performance (not many) and those that want the IMAGE of such performance. (more than you think)
IS seems to be a very fine car that apparently appeal to many people in this board. And maybe Lexus wasn't even aiming at the demographics that I described above. But it still is a disappointment to those expected Lexus to finally create a true bimmer beater. Oh well.
1. Say what you want, but the mags do have a significant influence on the actual sales and market share for a particular vehicle.
The G35 beat the 330 and CTS in MT, and beat 10 other cars in R&T. Sales of the G that year pass 60k, the most for any Infiniti in history. Coincidence? I think not.
Who was considering Infiniti back in 2002-3? Who would've thought they would field a car that would keep buyers out of the 325i? Not I.
What the mags do is make valid suggestions as to what cars you should at least test drive. If a car beats 10 cars in a comparisontest read by 1,000,000 a month, test drives are going up, sales will follow suit. That simple.
2. I vehemently object to this approach by Lexus because:
A. It failed before. B. The class leaders (G, TL, 3) offer sticks. C. Lexus turned their slogan to "Passionate Pursuit", but forgot people like to drive with passion too. D. The are billing this car as some type of class-leader/competitor to the G/3 (without naming names), but leave out one of the main ingredients to their success.
I could go on, but the point is ANYTHING they threw up would be better, faster, roomier, more luxurious than the original. Why shun a market when shunning it the first time hurt you in the media and in sales.
Somebody keeps saying 90% of sales are auto.
R&T reported 1 in 3 3-series buyers drive sticks. Audi A4: 1 in 4.
Part of it is marketing to.
The new G35 commercials. You aren't seeing slushboxes, are you?
This market is bigger than you guys seem to realize. Infiniti is not only putting the stick in commercials, they are adding power to the cars, putting big money into re-tuning the engine for a stick.
If they were selling only 10% manual, would they do that?
I think they added that power (to the manual tranny) as a preemptive strike against the new IS, with it's 300HP, assuming Lexus would not make the same mistake twice.
Looks like Infiniti scored twice to me, in timing, and securing the market with the most powerful MT in the class. Good job!
The sad part is, my ONLY complaints on this car are the base HP (MUST be AT LEAST 225), and the missing stick (On ALL models, AWD too).
It's also bad marketing. If you offend the people who are waiting for you to produce ONE SEDAN that is fun to drive, with this much competition, they are lost forever. Why?
Lexus has no excuse! The 6-speed from the Supra TT is just sitting around, collecting dust. With minor modifications, it's ready to rock.
It's like a cruel tease. The LS is perfect, except for the anti-style statement. The RX can't tow. The IS CONTINUES it's legacy. Why?
huh...yeah...What else is someone going to cross-shop at Infiniti if looking at the ES330? You're telling me the only real competition the ES330 has is from Buick and the Avalon? You have got to be kidding me if you think in that narrow of a range!! And you don't think TL buyers cross shop the ES330 either? So then what do TL shoppers cross shop? It seems like the TL is limited to the G35 then? which would be another complete joke.
People shop more for cars within a price range than by type or intended purpose of a vehicle. And a price range can encompass, as you may know, tons of cars.
Also, I will have you know, I sold Lexi from 1993 to 2001. Around 2000, the ES300's main competition was the Mercedes C-class, Infiniti I35, Acura 3.2TL, Toyota Avalon, and Lexus RX300. The competition is based on what customers would say they are cross-shopping. So to think the G35 is not cross-shopped is ludicrous since that is the only product in Infiniti's showroom which even remotely competes with the ES330. Otherwise you're basically saying nobody who looks at a ES goes to a Infiniti or Acura showroom.
The ES300 has been thriving for years, when it's competition was almost nobody to now, when it's competition is greater than it ever has been. In 1992 the ES300's competition was basically limited to the MB C-class, BMW 3-series, Infiniti J30, and Acura Legend. Today it's grown to a few dozen cars.
"It's not to please a small section of auto rags who have already crowned the 3 as the defacto leader even without seeing/testing an IS. That is not a crowd you wanna pander to, if I were Lexus."
Wrong. This is just the crowd they need to impress if they want to see a sports sedan. There has been not test of the new 3 vs the new IS yet so you actually don't know who will be crowned king this time around.
"Majority of Lexus buyers/owners could care less about how their cars compare to a Bimmer. They want a reliable and luxurious sedan/truck for their transportation."
Are you serious? You missed the whole point of being for this car by a mile. The IS isn't aimed at traditional Lexus buyers, who mostly couldn't care less about actually driving period. The IS is supposed to be a sports sedan not a ES/LS type car. The IS is supposed to be their BMW competitor. Haven't you been paying attention to what Clements or whatever his name has been saying? GS and IS = BMW competitors in their book, but in reality not so much so. The lack of manual, of which I've never seen so much posted about is and obvious mistake to the few that care about such things. Will the new IS sell better than the old? Of course, just by looks, space, and having more engine choices. Problem is the ES330 sells a boatload too and isn't a car anyone on this board would want. To be the man you got to beat the man. The man has a stick as do most of the little boys in the class.
"And I would say to you that the Lexus' grand plan is much like MBs. The next LS and its other variant (the 5L GT) will provide the halo effect to other lower-classed Lexi in dealer showrooms. DO not look at these releases in isolation. They are part of a grand plan. Next year there'll be the GS450h, LS460, GS460, GS350, and IS350 all with 300+ hp. When was the last time Lexus had 5 sedans with 300+bhp ? This is the new Lexus, powerful, refined, quality, and luxurious. Handling and performance will be tuned into these cars, without compromising the Lexus *feel*. That's the goal, that's the plan.
All of that has nothing to do with the IS and its supposed to be BMW competition. Nothing. Halo effect from a LS? The most non driver oreniated cars in its class is supposed to shine down on a sports sedan at the bottom of range? If that is the case that says the IS has failed in the sport department. This "Lexus feel" you speak of isn't whats needed here. Lexus' feel is not for the sports sedan market.
In short you're making far too many grand excuses for this car way too early which is pretty bad. Fact is you really don't need to yet, nobody has driven it.
" b. Lexus failed at appealing to those that want such performance (not many) and those that want the IMAGE of such performance. (more than you think) "
How do you know it's performance potential? Have you driven it? Geez, if you have let me know where I can drive it.
"The G35 beat the 330 and CTS in MT, and beat 10 other cars in R&T. Sales of the G that year pass 60k, the most for any Infiniti in history. Coincidence? I think not."
The first IS did well in comparisons. Where did sales go? Nowhere.
The Camry never does really well in comparison tests. Isn't it the best selling car in it's class?
The BMW X5 will probably always beat a RX330 in comparison tests. Who sells more?
The Impala places last in every comparison, yet it sells pretty darn well.
The Infiniti M45 just beat out the BMW 5-series and clobbered the Mercedes E-class. You know which will remain the best selling car in it's class? The MB E-class.
"2. I vehemently object to this approach by Lexus because:
A. It failed before."
You should just fly out to LA and walk in to their offices in Torrance and say so.
Meanwhile, are you, as usually, blaming the first IS300s failure on a manual transmission? You think the boy-racer interior, coupe-like backseat, crappy gas mileage, poor straight line performance had nothing to do with it?
"The new G35 commercials. You aren't seeing slushboxes, are you? "
So commercials have manuals in them, so they are selling manuals 50-60% with manual transmissions? You do understand what advertising is about?
"Lexus has no excuse! The 6-speed from the Supra TT is just sitting around, collecting dust. With minor modifications, it's ready to rock. "
That transmission is about outdated as they get. Do you really think with today's emissions regs they would use that transmission?
that obviously IS caught the attention of two quite different groups of drivers. It shows people's expectation and respect towards Lexus as a brand.
Having that said, IS seems to do a hell of a job of appealing to one of these groups. As Maxhonda said, I can see that IS's departure from the boyracer image is a very good thing to many.
I'm only venting because Lexus needed to take just a little extra step to appeal to the other group of drivers. IS seems wonderful otherwise. A lot of people have said that there are not enough buyers out there that would agree with some of us on this board, which might be true. But luckily there are other companies that do care about this demographic.
I'm not sure where you got the second gear start thing from but it wasn't me that mentioned it so basically - who cares. I didn't doom the IS for not having a manual if that is where this 2nd gear nonesense is coming from. We're talking about at least a 20 year old car. That was then this is now.
The 300E was never a fwd cush mobile with lifeless dynamics, was my point. The 300TE was a wagon. I'm not sure I'm up on the family-luxury sedan category as opposed to a non-family luxury sedan category
I was at the Auto Show this afternoon. Lexus made a HUGE mistake by having a new IS350 up on a podium and not on the floor so people could check it out. The styling is definitely modern. The specs are impressive, but alas the absence of a pure manual transmission takes it directly off my shopping list. I'd still check it out for my wife though. I would however check out the lower end IS if it does offer a manual transmission. I was very impressed with the E90 at the show.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Comments
For me driving manual is about active driving. About having control. Improved winter driving. Better performance. And lower fuel consumption.
Does that make me a boy-racer?
What kind a lunatic brags about using a clutch pedal? Sort of like bragging about owning a Panasonic Microwave versus a Sanyo.
The IS350 is a luxury-sport sedan, with bias to BOTH. This car will have a lot of bragging rights of itself. Its 3.5L V6 motor is tops for a normally aspirated 6-cylinder motor with over 300hp. Definitely the top dog if its torque is 275+ Ibft. An extermely efficient DI vvt-i motor, doing high 20s mpg fuel efficiency similar to a 4-banger 2L motor, etc. Consider many of its standard features and options that you'd find on top-of-the line luxury cars (smart access, knee/side/front/side airbags, cooled/heated seats, etc) on a compact sedan. You may also want to put this car up against the $50K RL. Which car would win out ? I'd take the smaller, more nimble, more powerful, faster, better handling (I project), and certanly much better looking IS350. There is a lot going for the IS than meets the eye.
Priced close to the top of the line 330i and the RL, the IS350 will do quite well, altho' Lexus projects it to be a low volume seller at ~10K units a year. I'd bet they'll sell much more than they project.
Not.. really. The magazines moaned about the lack of a manual in most of the first drives (just as C&D is already doing with the IS350), and I cant really remember a comparison that it actually won outright. I know it lost to G35 in a head to head, and I remember it coming in 3rd or 4th place a few times. Nobody remembers the 3rd or 4th place finishers, however.
(a) The marketing folk think that saying "over 200 hp" sounds hot and will satisfy everyone when it comes out at 201. Bonus: they further think that at a $29,990 price, no one will call it a "$30K entry price".
(b) There are different legal and emissions testing requirements between Europe and the US. Engine testing on the European version is further along, and they are comfortable being more definitive there.
(c) The US version will be tuned differently, and we will be pleasantly surprised when "greater than 200" in the US turns out to be re-tuned to 225 from the same engine.
(d) Only pathetic losers would worry about this, instead of waiting until the fall - there's no car before then anyway. :-)
I believe (a), want (c), and worry that it's really (d). ;-)
do you not understand that a manual and an automatic tranny version of the same car will drive and handle completely differently?
To compare the TSX to the IS is a joke! huh...let's see FWD and basically a dressed up Accord with a 4-banger you gotta rev to 8000RPM to get any acceleration out of vs. a RWD, V6 powered sport sedan. Huh..no contest.
i've not driven the IS250 but I know I'd buy a TSX 6MT over an e46 325i MT5. Yep, said it. wouldn't buy an e46 325i if it cost 5k less than a TSX. That's how little I like that car. The TSX 6mt is smooth as silk and that engine is way more eager and fun than BMW's overrated inline 6. I'd rather drop 26k on a TSX if I were forced to get either of those underpowered cars.
Maybe you should go to lexus and listen to the now archived speech from the nyias. Lexus' spokesperson clearly said the IS is designed to be a leader in the entry-level sports luxury market. That's the market with the 3, G35, TL, A4. They key in all of that...SPORTS. He didn't say compact luxury market (something the ES330 has a nice grip on). So maybe you should talk with Lexus as they're claiming the 3/G35 are in their sights. My guess is, Lexus scope is being peered through by Mr. Magoos.
What does around town driving have to do with anything? i've driven a few 6 speed TSXes and I always kept the revs over 4k. Why not, the thing's got a redline thousand higher than that? And it was silky smooth (something nobody can say about the rough 3.5 in the Infiniti lineup).
That's the disadvantage of a tiny 4-banger with very little torque. Maybe this is the reason it's sales are kinda on the small side.
they're selling 25-30k a year. Lexus hopes to move 45k IS250/350s. Two models, 50% more sales target. but wait the TL, which is really the IS350's comp sells 70k models a year. Hmm, those lackluster hondas move close to 100k units a year.
The IS250 with a manual maybe around the same 0-60 as the TSX manual, but geez at least the IS250 will be a pleasure to drive around town when you're not pushing the pedal to WOT.
Pure speculation.
To get anything out of the TSX, you gotta drive it like you stole it!
IMHO, that true of EVERY car.
Also, how fast do you really think the BMW 325i is going to be? I bet it's 0-60 doesn't turn out to be less than the low 7-second range.
What are you on? The current 325i runs to 60 in 6.8-7.0 with a manual. The new one has a nice HP and torque jump (akin to the power in the current 330i) and a slight weight gain but now equipped with a 6 speed.
Have you driven a manual car hard? Do you understand the feel of a perfectly timed downshift before hitting the corner? get the torque up but have the power to leave the corner at WOT and room to accelerate up to say 75 (freeway speeds) in a blink?
Much more of practical value is automatic 5-60 running start.
Yeah lets go do that with our entry lux cars. you pick an auto in the entry lux class and I'll stick with a 6mt 330i. I'll slip into first as we roll and rip it up to 30 and on to 60 without a problem. Your car will still be in second - even with a silly tiptronic/steptronic/wannabe manuamatic. You will slowly accelerate away.
In fact just last night at around 2 am I was rolling up on a light that was red but I knew green was coming...slipped to first and like a slingshot I took off. Nothing dangerous or illegal but a sure nice feeling. A feeling one can't get in a manumatic.
If you want Oatmeal, get a Buick or sumpin'!
Why build a cool car, than knock the legs out from under it? WHAT IS THE POINT!!
The IS CANNOT be a SPORTS-sedan, because the tranny knocks most of the sports out of it.
There are Luxury-sports sedans, and Sports luxury sedans. I guess Lexus can't decide, so it will try to appease all of the people some of the time.
I don't know. EVERY time I sit in the driver's seat of a automatic car, I yawn right at the gearshift.
A good driver in a stick will rip an auto to shreds not sometimes, ALL THE TIME! Don't come here and turn this place into Fantasy Island!
I made this here forum with the hopes that this would be a place to rejoice, not to cry in my beer.
Auto tranny Vettes and M5's are crimes against nature!!
If you can't drive, stay out of sports cars!
DrFill
But at least they do offer a manual for serious sports enthusiasts.
Current IS owners: what do you think of the dramatic changes in IS guages? I really like the new ones; old ones were kind of boy-racer?
Had they offered a 6-speed on the 3.5 they would have caused the germans many sleepless nights. Now ,the germans will be prepared for the IS manual in 2 years and go one step farther when it arrives. Shame. Most people can never drive their car to the limits, but having a stick is sweet.
Honestly, how many Porsche owners do actually know about their cars, and are true enthusiasts? Not many. Most people buy a porsche as a status symbol. But still, Porsche got such an outstanding (if somewhat overrated at this point) image of performance because they have offered cars that satisfied true enthusiasts for decades.
I bet the porsche club people are only a small portion of the total porsche buyers. BUT if porsche stopped making cars that satisfy these guys, they wouldn't be able to lure the wall-street types for long. The reputation will die out eventually.
Same thing with Bimmer. I see tons of auto 325xi's around here. They are underpowered, and rather heavy. Coupled with the slush box, they can't be all that fun to drive. BUT I bet the owners still feel mighty good about owning the "ultimate driving machine". And where did that come from? Because Bimmer makes cars that carry the same name designation that actually deserve such moniker.
So let's be clear. Is lexus REALLY shooting for 3/G35? or are they just trying to make a smaller version of TL?
The IS CANNOT be a SPORTS-sedan, because the tranny knocks most of the sports out of it.
Tell AMG most of their cars are not sports-sedans.
I don't know. EVERY time I sit in the driver's seat of a automatic car, I yawn right at the gearshift.
You haven't sat in enough cars.
A good driver in a stick will rip an auto to shreds not sometimes, ALL THE TIME! Don't come here and turn this place into Fantasy Island!
A really good driver uses a pair of pedals on the steering wheel, not a stick. Slushy dummy torque converter is only one implementational detail in the grand scheme of automatic transmissions; the torque converter can be made less slippy with different compound formulation, the shift program can be made smarter (especially when vehicle dynamic control is in the equation, integration with automatic cars is just so much more straight forward than stick ones. In fact, for cars with tremendous amount of torque to the wheels, automatics are almost the only way to go); fluid-driven impellor torque converter can ultimately be replaced with something else, such as SMG, which despite its name is actually an automatic transmission because it does not have a manual clutch pedal or a stick; on top of that, SMG box can be designed to automaticly upshift for you as well when red lining; in other words, it's thoroughly automatic; just without a fluid impeller-based torque converter.
You know there might be a comparo where only the sticks are invited. Or one where the points are deducted from the autos.
The GS and IS platforms are related, I think. Reading the reviews of GS makes me think IS is more C than 3. Maybe that's why they decide not to have a stick.
From reading this and other threads, the BMW faithful seem very nervous about this car's chances against the 3 series - and seem to be grasping for anything negative to beat their drums about. (If I were in the BMW camp, I would be complaining about spending major $$ for a car with the CD changer in the glove box) If, as has been repeated for DAYS, you do not like the available options - you are lucky that BMW, 350Z, Lotus, or whatever alternatives are easily available. Enjoy.
Personally, I would like to find out people's impressions of ALL aspects of the new IS line-up (vice DAYS of bitching about a manual tranny). (I see the IS as a "sporty" sedan and possible replacement of my '03 TL - a chance to have "RL-level" features without a 50K price).
If my initial impressions of this car hold true (pass the Oct intro), I plan to buy one...(250 AWD) and it will be an auto...(I love manual transmissions/rowing my own - and I have a GREAT RX-8 in the garage for that :>)
0-60 times? I can not tell the difference between 5.8 and 6.4 or whatever - and since there are no dry lakebeds or dragstrips on my way to work - I do not care if it is 6/7/8 sec, or whatever it turns out to be...I am sure I will be able to merge into highway traffic and get out of the way of other cars, etc.
PLEASE, can we discuss aspects of the car other than manual trans and 0-60? Maybe just a little while? Pretty please...
Cheers
I grant you your wish, though I cant speak for the others!
"From reading this and other threads, the BMW faithful seem very nervous about this car's chances against the 3 series"
Oh give me a break!!! Your statement could be true if the IS had a manual tra.. ooops I promised you not to repeat those words again!
I will tell AMG, and anyone else what I think of 500-600HP cars with slushboxs. Be very glad to!
If you want to make luxury cars very fast, or super fast, that's fine. Just because something is fast, that doesn't make it a sports car/sedan. Porsche Cayenne Turbo is VERY fast! Is that a sports-sedan? Or a Sports-truck?
An S65? Is that a sports-sedan or a luxury car?
You can put every computer known to man into it, to make the (weak or lazy) driver FEEL like he has a sportscar, but it ain't a sportscar.
It's been castrated.
These cars can be fun, and fast, and easy to drive. This may be considered "progress". I call them queer.
The G and 3 have advanced the sports-sedan class. The IS COULD'VE taken THEM to the next level, but has chosen not to.
Driving is not a video game! Keep your paddles to your SIMULATORS and other high-tech games. Leave the driving to me!
Brightness
To dispell the any true ignorance, I sold new cars for 5 years, have owned more than a couple, have raced several, and been in the company of some very wealthy associates, with some pretty pricey, superpowered rides with Super-SLUSHBOX STD. So I've probably been in a more diverse pallette of vehicles than you, my friend.
If you want a SPORTSCAR/SEDAN, as Porsche says, there is no substitute!!
Maybe Lexus will hear the cries of some, jack up the power of the base to 225, get a stick into the full-bore model in Spring '06, and end this argument that should never have come to this in the first place.
Time will reveal.
DrFill
In commute traffic around here, you're stopping at a light every .2 of a mile. However, there are occasions when you want to jump into a gap when you turn right into the main road.
If the IS250 auto doesn't have enough low end torque, it might be tough to go from a stopped position into 50 MPH traffic safely without really cutting someone off or forcing them to brake.
The IS300 ultimately dropped off of magazines radar screens soon after the manual IS300 came out because of the G35. But obviously if the manual was such a big deal, it would have done better against the competition. So, what did magazines get sick of in the car? huh....let's see..could it have been the lack of power? interior space? boy-racer interior?.
You must live on a racetrack. I live on a street with a 25-MPH speed limit. How the handling difference will show up on racetrack at 9/10ths to 10/10ths drivings means diddly squat because out in the real world, a manual equipped IS or a automatic handle pretty much the same!
True, if you only count the buyers like you that are already determined to buy a lexus, or something similar. As I said, you are in fact reading between the lines of the comparos to convince yourself that not winning but just being in top three is good enough of a reason to choose IS, and you've already convinced yourself that being a little slower than the competitors on the strait line is also fine.
It's all fine. I'm not advocating that we should all be boy racers. I also understand some people's frustration about this discussion when they REALLY don't care about the manual tranny issue. I'm sure a numbers guy at the toyota executive meeting can always argue that in fact most "traditional" lexus buyers don't care for the manual tranny. True.
My only point is this.
I thought that the new IS was targeting ALSO at the people that DO care about these issues. People that would get an 330i in a heart beat if it wasn't so overpriced and rather unreliable.
It's not just that this particular car lacks manual, it's the statement that Toyota is making on its own view of "performance" and "passion". Apparently there are a few people that don't agree with that view.
And besides, why do people care about the 6 speed auto anyway? Doesnt everyone in here require a manual transmission to live?
My fearless prediction is low to mid 7s for the IS250 manual, high 7s or 8 flat with the 6A, and low eights with 6A/AWD.
Gosh! I think people should ease up!
Honestely, having spent time in the new 3s interior, and gawked at the gorgeous IS350 on display at NY Auto Show for nearly 15 minutes, by far the car I'd prefer to spend time in is the IS. And I dont mind a well executed 6A, especially when coupled with a 300 hp V6, 45 more than anything BMW offers.
I'm more interested to see how this vehicle drives than anything else.
(Happy Holiday to anyone who celebrates)
~alpha
For me, I have said it for upteenth time. I'd wait to drive BOTH the IS and the 3 before making my decision to buy. I am not just pontificating about this car. I mean to buy one, and I am open-minded enough to give my choices a fair chance to earn my money.
October will come soon enough....
Yeah, being a little slower is fine. Why? Because even if you pick the fastest, you're not going to be the fastest for long. Something faster is just a short time away. Also, what is a few tenths of a second? I mean really, a 1/2 second faster car in the 0-60 translates to about a 1/2 car lead at the 60 mile marker! Big deal! What do I prefer? A all around good sports sedan. Competent handling, good acceleration, good steering & brakes, good seat comfort & support, a great engine/tranny combo, safety features, and quality. Not one car is going to give you everything, so you have to pick and choose what is most important and pick accordingly. If you live on a racetrack, like someone does, it's best to pick a manual, because that's the only place a 1/2 second quicker 0-60 time is going to mean anything.
"I thought that the new IS was targeting ALSO at the people that DO care about these issues. People that would get an 330i in a heart beat if it wasn't so overpriced and rather unreliable. "
Does the IS350 really need a manual to target 330i buyers? To put that in perspective think about the reality that not every 330i owner has a manual transmission in their car and is probably not looking for one in their next car either. Today, seriously, what would you think are the proportion of 330i owners that buy manuals? I would peg it about 20-25% tops.
"It's not just that this particular car lacks manual, it's the statement that Toyota is making on its own view of "performance" and "passion". Apparently there are a few people that don't agree with that view."
By that regards, maybe BMW should only make manual transmission equipped cars. Maybe then they could really show passion!
Let's not forget, as with the last IS300, Toyota didn't make a announcement about a manual transmission until close to launch. SO you never know.
"True, if you only count the buyers like you that are already determined to buy a lexus, or something similar. "
At this point I'm convinced to buy a LExus. I can't buy a manual so this whole ridiculous manual thing is pointless(Living in NJ and having a manual is pointless anyway) plus I'm not buying a BMW with that hideous interior and banglized exterior and the only real cars I would consider are those from Japan and at this moment the IS looks to be by far the best. The G35 is a little big and the interior blows, not to mention it has 280+ overrated horsepower, and Acura has nothing to compete with a car like the IS. phlease don't bring up the Acura Accord.
"As I said, you are in fact reading between the lines of the comparos to convince yourself that not winning but just being in top three is good enough of a reason to choose IS"
I'm not convincing myself that being in the top 3 is good enough. The simple fact is it is good enough. Ever see the scores and what point spread there is between #1 and #3 or even #1 and last place? Comparison tests mean very little, you shouldn't need to convince yourself of that! do you read what their likes and dislikes are? Sometimes they make no sense at all. Besides, are you simply just looking to pick what car places #1 in comparison tests? That's what it seems like a lot of posters want-that if the IS350 doesn't post #1 they won't buy it. Personally, that's a stupid way to buy a car. And then what do you do when one magazine places a IS350 #1, one places it #2, one places it #3?
What happens when in 2007, a new G35 comes out and it places #1, do you go trade in your IS to buy a G35 because it's now better?
And the vast majority of those people own ES and RX330s. Lexus has no trouble moving the ES, a car that usually gets ranked near last place when anyone actually bothers to include one. What Lexus DOES NOT sell a lot of is IS and GS. Its critical that they get all aspects of these cars correct if they even want to compete with Acura and Infiniti which sell more cars in the segment than they do, and especially if they have any hope at all of even touching Germany.
All aspects correct? What car has *all aspects* correct?
Does the 3-series have all aspects correct? Well let's see no.
Does the G35 have all aspects correct? No.
Does the Audi A4? Well no.
Why Lexus does not sell a lot of current generation IS300's is not because of the lack of a manual transmission plain and simple. Is it soo hard to see that the IS300 is a failure for other reasons??? If having a manual meant everything in this class, the C-class would be a failure. Is it? The G35 would have been a failure in it's first year? Were/are they?
Does Acura and INfiniti really sell more cars in this segment than Lexus?
I mean Acura has the TL in this segment. I wouldn't really say the TSX is in the segment since it sells in a narrow price range of $27K to $29K.
Even if you count the TSX, that makes the TSX and TL selling about 100K units annually. Let's face it though, the TL competes against the ES330 also. Same with the INfiniti G35. Since they dropped the I35, the G35 currently competes against the ES330 as well as the IS300.
TSX/TL about 100K units annually.
Infiniti G35 about 50K to 60K annually.
Lexus IS300 and ES330 about 80K units annually.
So a new IS250/350 & ES330 combo if it sells at the numbers Lexus thinks and counting for some cannabilization of ES330 sales could most certainly sell above 100K a month. And that would be at a higher average price point than either Acura or Infiniti.
~alpha
And I would say to you that the Lexus' grand plan is much like MBs. The next LS and its other variant (the 5L GT) will provide the halo effect to other lower-classed Lexi in dealer showrooms. DO not look at these releases in isolation. They are part of a grand plan. Next year there'll be the GS450h, LS460, GS460, GS350, and IS350 all with 300+ hp. When was the last time Lexus had 5 sedans with 300+bhp ? This is the new Lexus, powerful, refined, quality, and luxurious. Handling and performance will be tuned into these cars, without compromising the Lexus *feel*. That's the goal, that's the plan.
The IS350 with a 3.5L V6 and churning out 300HP is a darn fine product from Lexus. Like brightness and Max opined, if the 255hp 330i/6A outruns a 300+hp IS350/6A, then maybe Lexus has a problem on their hands with this car. Until then, its pure speculation on how Lexus missed the boat on the IS350 w/out a MT. BTW, doesn't the IS250 already have a 6MT ?
Oh, I gotta tell you something, LG. My '03 Matrix with the "Rolla 140hp, 4-banger, is a darn fine car merging with traffic. In fact, the car accelerates much faster than you'd think.
The facts are the following:
1)The new IS will be a success in terms of sales volume. It caters more to mainstream customers than the old IS.
2)The new IS is a big disappointment not only by a few BMW devoted ones like myself, but also by many devoted Lexus fans who wanted a serious performance sedan offered by their favorite company. Everybody knows what the Achilles Heel is for the new IS and that inadequacy is a lack of a MT option( I used the initials since I promised in a prior post not to mention that word again).
There is no contradiction in the following statement: "Despite the good chance the IS will sell in higher volumes it still will be a disappointment by many."
The ES330 is highest volume seller among Lexus cars. But the fact that it is a best seller does not make the ES330 great. The same logic applies for the IS.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that somebody would cross shop a G35 with an ES330? Just because these cars are midsize and in the $30s range doesnt make them competitors. The ES330 thrives because the only real competition it has is from Buick, and Toyota's own Avalon. The ES should not be included with the IS when comparing to sales to G and TL.
2. I didn't even say that such performance numbers should matter to everyone. I even said that it in fact shouldn't matter to most people's daily use. I'm glad you like the IS as is, and I know there are more people like you than me.
3. Nonetheless, I claim two points.
a. Such performance numbers are essential in newly establishing an image of a bona fide "sports sedan"
b. Lexus failed at appealing to those that want such performance (not many) and those that want the IMAGE of such performance. (more than you think)
IS seems to be a very fine car that apparently appeal to many people in this board. And maybe Lexus wasn't even aiming at the demographics that I described above. But it still is a disappointment to those expected Lexus to finally create a true bimmer beater. Oh well.
The G35 beat the 330 and CTS in MT, and beat 10 other cars in R&T. Sales of the G that year pass 60k, the most for any Infiniti in history. Coincidence? I think not.
Who was considering Infiniti back in 2002-3? Who would've thought they would field a car that would keep buyers out of the 325i? Not I.
What the mags do is make valid suggestions as to what cars you should at least test drive. If a car beats 10 cars in a comparisontest read by 1,000,000 a month, test drives are going up, sales will follow suit. That simple.
2. I vehemently object to this approach by Lexus because:
A. It failed before.
B. The class leaders (G, TL, 3) offer sticks.
C. Lexus turned their slogan to "Passionate Pursuit", but forgot people like to drive with passion too.
D. The are billing this car as some type of class-leader/competitor to the G/3 (without naming names), but leave out one of the main ingredients to their success.
I could go on, but the point is ANYTHING they threw up would be better, faster, roomier, more luxurious than the original. Why shun a market when shunning it the first time hurt you in the media and in sales.
Somebody keeps saying 90% of sales are auto.
R&T reported 1 in 3 3-series buyers drive sticks. Audi A4: 1 in 4.
Part of it is marketing to.
The new G35 commercials. You aren't seeing slushboxes, are you?
This market is bigger than you guys seem to realize. Infiniti is not only putting the stick in commercials, they are adding power to the cars, putting big money into re-tuning the engine for a stick.
If they were selling only 10% manual, would they do that?
I think they added that power (to the manual tranny) as a preemptive strike against the new IS, with it's 300HP, assuming Lexus would not make the same mistake twice.
Looks like Infiniti scored twice to me, in timing, and securing the market with the most powerful MT in the class. Good job!
The sad part is, my ONLY complaints on this car are the base HP (MUST be AT LEAST 225), and the missing stick (On ALL models, AWD too).
It's also bad marketing. If you offend the people who are waiting for you to produce ONE SEDAN that is fun to drive, with this much competition, they are lost forever. Why?
Lexus has no excuse! The 6-speed from the Supra TT is just sitting around, collecting dust. With minor modifications, it's ready to rock.
It's like a cruel tease. The LS is perfect, except for the anti-style statement. The RX can't tow. The IS CONTINUES it's legacy. Why?
For what?
DrFill
People shop more for cars within a price range than by type or intended purpose of a vehicle. And a price range can encompass, as you may know, tons of cars.
Also, I will have you know, I sold Lexi from 1993 to 2001. Around 2000, the ES300's main competition was the Mercedes C-class, Infiniti I35, Acura 3.2TL, Toyota Avalon, and Lexus RX300. The competition is based on what customers would say they are cross-shopping. So to think the G35 is not cross-shopped is ludicrous since that is the only product in Infiniti's showroom which even remotely competes with the ES330. Otherwise you're basically saying nobody who looks at a ES goes to a Infiniti or Acura showroom.
The ES300 has been thriving for years, when it's competition was almost nobody to now, when it's competition is greater than it ever has been. In 1992 the ES300's competition was basically limited to the MB C-class, BMW 3-series, Infiniti J30, and Acura Legend. Today it's grown to a few dozen cars.
Wrong. This is just the crowd they need to impress if they want to see a sports sedan.
There has been not test of the new 3 vs the new IS yet so you actually don't know who will be crowned king this time around.
"Majority of Lexus buyers/owners could care less about how their cars compare to a Bimmer. They want a reliable and luxurious sedan/truck for their transportation."
Are you serious? You missed the whole point of being for this car by a mile. The IS isn't aimed at traditional Lexus buyers, who mostly couldn't care less about actually driving period. The IS is supposed to be a sports sedan not a ES/LS type car. The IS is supposed to be their BMW competitor. Haven't you been paying attention to what Clements or whatever his name has been saying? GS and IS = BMW competitors in their book, but in reality not so much so. The lack of manual, of which I've never seen so much posted about is and obvious mistake to the few that care about such things. Will the new IS sell better than the old? Of course, just by looks, space, and having more engine choices. Problem is the ES330 sells a boatload too and isn't a car anyone on this board would want. To be the man you got to beat the man. The man has a stick as do most of the little boys in the class.
"And I would say to you that the Lexus' grand plan is much like MBs. The next LS and its other variant (the 5L GT) will provide the halo effect to other lower-classed Lexi in dealer showrooms. DO not look at these releases in isolation. They are part of a grand plan. Next year there'll be the GS450h, LS460, GS460, GS350, and IS350 all with 300+ hp. When was the last time Lexus had 5 sedans with 300+bhp ? This is the new Lexus, powerful, refined, quality, and luxurious. Handling and performance will be tuned into these cars, without compromising the Lexus *feel*. That's the goal, that's the plan.
All of that has nothing to do with the IS and its supposed to be BMW competition. Nothing. Halo effect from a LS? The most non driver oreniated cars in its class is supposed to shine down on a sports sedan at the bottom of range? If that is the case that says the IS has failed in the sport department. This "Lexus feel" you speak of isn't whats needed here. Lexus' feel is not for the sports sedan market.
In short you're making far too many grand excuses for this car way too early which is pretty bad. Fact is you really don't need to yet, nobody has driven it.
M
How do you know it's performance potential? Have you driven it? Geez, if you have let me know where I can drive it.
The first IS did well in comparisons. Where did sales go? Nowhere.
The Camry never does really well in comparison tests. Isn't it the best selling car in it's class?
The BMW X5 will probably always beat a RX330 in comparison tests. Who sells more?
The Impala places last in every comparison, yet it sells pretty darn well.
The Infiniti M45 just beat out the BMW 5-series and clobbered the Mercedes E-class. You know which will remain the best selling car in it's class? The MB E-class.
"2. I vehemently object to this approach by Lexus because:
A. It failed before."
You should just fly out to LA and walk in to their offices in Torrance and say so.
Meanwhile, are you, as usually, blaming the first IS300s failure on a manual transmission? You think the boy-racer interior, coupe-like backseat, crappy gas mileage, poor straight line performance had nothing to do with it?
"The new G35 commercials. You aren't seeing slushboxes, are you? "
So commercials have manuals in them, so they are selling manuals 50-60% with manual transmissions? You do understand what advertising is about?
"Lexus has no excuse! The 6-speed from the Supra TT is just sitting around, collecting dust. With minor modifications, it's ready to rock. "
That transmission is about outdated as they get. Do you really think with today's emissions regs they would use that transmission?
Having that said, IS seems to do a hell of a job of appealing to one of these groups. As Maxhonda said, I can see that IS's departure from the boyracer image is a very good thing to many.
I'm only venting because Lexus needed to take just a little extra step to appeal to the other group of drivers. IS seems wonderful otherwise. A lot of people have said that there are not enough buyers out there that would agree with some of us on this board, which might be true. But luckily there are other companies that do care about this demographic.
The 300E was never a fwd cush mobile with lifeless dynamics, was my point. The 300TE was a wagon. I'm not sure I'm up on the family-luxury sedan category as opposed to a non-family luxury sedan category
M
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD