Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

merc1

If they were serious about doing that the IS350 would have a manual to go with its class leading hp. Lexus' full picture doesn't mean a thing to people who want a stick shift. This is constantly glossed over with future plans and this and that, doesn't matter. Where does the 330i manual owner go if he wants an IS350 with a stick? A IS250? Not.

If hybrids are going to be so hot then Lexus had better get ready to produce all hybrids from the way you make it sound. Whats the point of buying a GS430 if a GS450h is so much better?

BTW, it has already been announced that the M5 will have a stick shift just for the U.S. market. See a pattern there?

M

1violinist

"Where does the 330i manual owner go if he wants an IS350 with a stick? A IS250? Not..."

I guess they'd go for another 330i manual! Lexus doesn't seem to target this bracket. Maybe if they get enough 'nagging' they'd put a stick like BMW did with M5! I've driven stick all my life and would love to get IS350 manual, but I can live with auto if everything else is right.

spfotey

does anybody know when it will hit showrooms?

giovanni1

September is what I was told by the dealer here in Ca.

brightness04

The only reason cars in this segment are moving away from "Lotus Elise" sportiness is because buyers demand all this other stuff on their cars that add weight. A bare sports sedan isn't going to sell anymore, the current IS300 proved that.

Glad we finally agree on something. That's the point I have been making all along. The segment is getting softer . . . today's 3 series is bigger and heavier and softer than the first 5 series that I had (a E28), which was supposed to be BMW's family sedan.

The fact that the brand new 330i will only sport 255hp when the C350 has 268, the G35 280/298, the TL 270, the A4 3.2 252, so BMW is hardly class leading

Again we actually agree. My point is BMW is losing the lead, the brand new 330i's predicament only goes to show my point. One and a half decades ago, 325i with its 188hp was at the head of the $30k import class; even the Legend had only 160h or so. The upper end Accords, from whose previous ownership BMW had the highest conversion rate as they got financially better off, only had 130hp. A 40% hp increase was what the Accord to 325i upgraders were looking for (many of my friends were among them, back in the early 90's). Today, an Accord V6 actually delivers more power than most 3 series running around.

Anyone who questions whether or not a V6 Solara is faster and actually thinks they have a comparable car because of that is as lost as lost can be.

You'd be surprised how many people actually do that comparison. Most IS (and 3 series nowadays) are purchased for nothing more than commute duty.

wale_bate1

Wrong point. BMW never, ever, ever led the class in HP. Reason? Didn't ever have to. Still doesn't. See, driving for pleasure requires enough HP for motivation. Driving for idiotic stoplight conquests demands more.

A new IS250 with slightly improved performance and handling to the old at the same price makes sense. Less of either is silly, even in the face of more doo dads for dips. A 350 should be the absolute overkill option, a la M3; not the one you pick if you just want to have some daily driving fun.

Whatever the duty, there is a benchmark and its rep is based on its driving charateristics, which is what makes the current IS so very appealing. It's got nothing to do with fluff and nonesuch. There is nothing so luxurious about a BMW 3-series interior that causes the IS to fail by comparison.

Comparing it to an LS OTOH, reveals a different world. The LS fan, though is looking for something completely different in every respect. What the LS fan wants in his sedan should never appear in an IS. It ruins the concept from the ground up.

And that, dear readers is what appears to be wrong with the direction for what used to be Lexus' bid for the sporting segment.

Appears. We shall see when the rubber meets the road.

BTW, my curvy canyon commute just plain rocks sometimes.

dewey

"40% hp increase was what the Accord to 325i upgraders were looking for (many of my friends were among them, back in the early 90's). Today, an Accord V6 actually delivers more power than most 3 series running around. "

Brightness04,

if you are going to justify your arguments about the IS, please use correct comparisons

1) In the early 90s there were no 6 cyl. Accords! 15 years ago the 6 cyl. 3 series beat the 4 cyl. Accord hands down!.

Today the new 6cyl. BMWe90 330 beats the current 4ycl Accord hands down, just like 15 years ago!

The current Accord has 160hp and the new BMW e90 330 has 255hp. Do the mathematics: BMWe90 will have a 59% hike in hp compared to the current Accord 4cyl. So in the past 15 years the hp level of BMW has grown stronger relative to the 4 cyl. Accord(from 40% to 59%)

For performance the most important stat is 0-60 not hp. So this hp argument is pretty useless.

Also the word performance sport sedan is a misnomer, because performance is only half of what makes a sport sedan. The other half is how it handles! So using 0-60 in itself creates an argument that is half convincing.

merc1

I'm not sure what your point is about BMW and hp, as wale_bate1 has stated, they never led in the hp department, and they never had too. IMO the IS350 would stand a much better chance of knocking off the 330i if it had that manual. Without it some of the automags aren't going to give it the nod. Watch and see.

A Honda Accord can have 300hp and it will never sway a true BMW buyer, never. Will it catch the attention of a value buyer? Maybe if that person's definition of a value is the cheapest car with the most power. A very simplistic type buyer that imo hasn't a clue about much else. I know people like that too who compare all types of cars and expect them to do the same thing and/or cost similar based on whats under the hood or how much room it has. It kills me when people buy Coupes and complain about the room.

M

drfill

They'll test it, compare it, REALLY LIKE it.......except......

Since most people don't commute through Laguna Seca, "stoplight derby" is as close to excitement as these machines will every get.

Handling is not very important in America. Comfort, amenities, and ego-stroking power take presidence.

The IS350 will do very well. But it will not, cannot, be a "driver's car" without an MT. Any marketing as such is a waste of time. You can't drive something that drives itself.

It's a smaller GS until the proper "improvements" are made "at a later date".

DrFill

wale_bate1

Cmon, Doc, I don't stoplight derby and I have real fun regularly.

We are the people who look for the long way, the road less travelled. We look for ways to get the E ticket ride without breaking the law (much). We like cars like the 3-series, the A4, the IS. We drive for fun whenever possible and not just to get there or even to get there first. We like to be comfortable and appreciate convenience, but don't require or really desire pampering.

Sport first, lux second. This pecking order must be maintained in perpetuity!

nippononly

you've got that right. Everything else at Lexus is lux first, sport second (or notably absent altogether). The IS has to continue its previous mission of sport over lux. I think they should be able to accomplish that with the car they have described, but I sure hope they tune the VDIM down to almost non-existence. Have been reading some articles about this system's operation in the GS, and it sounds awful. When experienced professional drivers start to make comments like "there is a great car down in there somewhere, if only we could get through the VDIM to find it", you know there is a serious problem.

Highway passing power at a touch of the throttle is one of the advantages to a small V-6 instead of a large 4, and great handling has nothing to with the engine at all. These are the attributes of a really fun car, so the IS250 looks like it will be a winner to me. The ONLY thing Lexus needs to be mindful of is the way the American market works - horsepower and "bigger is better" are what sells - and not get out of hand with pricing. As long as they do, the next IS should sell better than the current one.

As for the "gobs of power" people, yes, they will have to settle for an automatic. It is a shame, but the reality is that this will not lose Lexus many customers, as most sales are automatics. And of course, the new 4.6L engine will arrive for the GS next year, and once the GS is no longer using it, I can easily envision the current 4.3 appearing in IS430 coupes and possibly even sedans, as some have speculated. Now won't that be nice for the power people?! :-)

lexusguy

I wouldnt count on an IS430 sedan or retracto-top. Lexus has never played the "hand me down" engine game before. When they replace an engine, its replaced across the board. If IS is going to get a V8 at all, which I seriously doubt, it will be 460, just like GS and LS.

dewey

If there will be a hybrid IS(V8 performance with a 6 cyl), a V8 IS would be redundant. And I do believe Lexus is serious about a hybrid version, correct me if I am wrong.

lexusguy

If they are, there's no official info to say so. If there is going to be an IS450h, I dont think I would expect it before '08 at the absolute earliest.

shipo

"As for the "gobs of power" people, yes, they will have to settle for an automatic. It is a shame, but the reality is that this will not lose Lexus many customers, as most sales are automatics."

Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I always thought that the IS was designed to attract buyers to Lexus from other marques. Yes, no? If yes, then the omission of a manual transmission will send many of us right back to where we came from.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nippononly

that Lexus has said it will step up model modification intervals, an engine here, an exterior remodel there, rather than doing everything all at once every five years as they have in the past. To me, this says we will not have to wait three years for the first changes to the IS arriving this fall. And since that is how long it will take the hybrid to get here, it is my thinking they will have an IS430 for a year or two, which will be REPLACED by the IS450H. And I am of the opinion that performance hybrids are better suited to large models, not small ones like the IS, so I am kinda hoping they do the V-8 instead. HOWEVER, it is all just guesswork based on the rumors that have floated previously and my limited sense of the way Toyota "thinks".

PS "Lexus has never played the "hand me down" engine game before"

Don't forget, the inline 6 in the IS and GS the last few years was essentially a hand-me-down engine from the early 90s Supra, so they do it occasionally. I think it is OK to do that once in a while, as long as you don't use it for too long. They probably used it for too long in the IS/GS...

shipo: you have a point, but what if I am a C-class owner disenchanted with my 25 repair visits (exaggertaing here folks, please don't kill me). Chances are INFINITESIMAL that I have a stick-shift C - just try to find one of those anywhere - so I would probably look at the IS, no? What if I am a G35 owner that is just sick of Infiniti's failure to ever really bring the interior of this car to class standards? Again, very rare to find a manual in these cars (in fact, it was only coupes that initially had them, right?). Just a thought. Yes, it will not help in bringing BMW owners that are manual enthusiasts out of their cars.

rotoryfan

Good post - you make some good points regarding the limited number of manuals sold and potential type of buyers of the IS (the 1st gen buyers are probably off to buy WRX's (or whatever the Suburu sport sedan is called), etc.).

The IS has been characterised as a "little LS300" - that would be fine with me.

If I wanted sport above all else (i.e. luxury), I would buy a Lotus Elise. Maybe a good consideration for all the manual lovers here who claim to be the "only true drivers". My driving is mostly commuting in traffic, I guess they just go to the track everyday.

also - "Yes, it will not help in bringing BMW owners that are manual enthusiasts out of their cars." This is a good thing - new owners of the IS will probably not want to endure the typical BMW owner stereotype.

Cheers

rotoryfan

" There is nothing so luxurious about a BMW 3-series interior that causes the IS to fail by comparison "

What a HUGE understatement! (BMW interior = iDrive (if you want a nav system), CD changer in the glove box, leatherette (vinyl?) seats, austere layout, etc.).

Maybe the beemer types could better use their time complaining to BMW to give them what they want in a sedan rather than complaining about Lexus' (global) strategy to gain market share (by listening to its customers).

(common sense: low sales for 1st gen IS = no business case for continuing down that road).

blueguydotcom

The IS has been characterised as a "little LS300" - that would be fine with me.

They have one already...it's called the ES330.

rotoryfan

The IS has been characterised as a "little LS300" - that would be fine with me.

"They have one already...it's called the ES330."

As I understand it, the ES is based on the Camry platform. The new IS is new from the ground up (new suspension, etc. etc.)

dewey

"This is a good thing - new owners of the IS will probably not want to endure the typical BMW owner stereotype"

LOL and what is a Lexus stereotype? One who likes to sit in plush luxury and despises anything to do with driver participation? :P

What is a BMW stereotype? One who would love to drive a manual IS350? One who wants to drive a car that involves driver input?

blueguydotcom

As I understand it, the ES is based on the Camry platform. The new IS is new from the ground up (new suspension, etc. etc.)

Yes, the ES330 is a dressed up Camry. Somebody said he'd like it if the IS were called a little LS. well, Lexus already builds a little LS for people who want quiet, bland, Buick-like feel but with an L on the hood, it's called the ES330.

merc1

Yet in all of that nothing about actual driving........it would seem to me that dewey was right. One minute the new IS is the sports sedan of the segment and then the next sport doesn't count because no one has the space to use it. Which is it?

You continually try apply all the Lexus LS430 rhetoric to the sport sedan class and it simply doesn't fit or make anyone excited about a Lexus IS. Why call the IS a sport anything if all you care about is quietness, refinement and customer service? You gotta snap out of the LS430-style thinking.

M

lexusguy

Er, the '93 SC and GS were the first Lexus's to use the Inline 6. Its essentially the same engine as in the Supra that ran until the late 90s. The letter code wasnt exactly the same, but both the Supra and SC\GS had 3.0L and 225hp. The Supra was killed in '98, but the SC, GS, and IS have continued to use that same engine. The Supra didnt get some bigger engine with more power. Thats what I was saying. When the LS became LS430, so did the GS. It didnt continue on with the old 4.0L. If the LS and GS become 460, the IS will get that engine too. Lexus wont make a new model using an old engine that has been updated in a different model in the lineup. They dont work that way.

wale_bate1

Boy howdy, did you ever miss my point!

I won't speak to the incoming 3 interior, because I haven't been in it, but the outgoing one is perfect. Austere is just fine in my book. Focusing on the driver's needs as a driver works beautifully. Almost ditto on the current IS interior; the corrugation was unnecessary.

Lexus has said time and again that their strategy for the line was more sport, more driving "passion". One doesn't get that from listening to the typical current Lexus customer, rotory. The typical current Lexus customer wants to be cocooned and transported. Those are two points of emphasis that should never be applied to an IS, and should have been limited in application on the GS, IMO. They are also two points of emphasis that have zero to do with sport.

Sport first, lux second...

oac

Wale_

Sport first, lux second...

Can you please describe what you mean by "sport" pls ? And what will "lux" be ? Reason I ask is that these words we throw around may have different meanings to different people, and we may be talking at odds if we don't have a basic understanding of what we are looking for in this car, vs what the manufacturer is delivering.

If you ask me, methinks, the new IS is lux first, sport second, judging by looks (int/ext) alone. But looks can be deceiving. Until we get a test drive, we'll not be able to decide which one it leans more to. Would we ?

wale_bate1

"If you ask me, methinks, the new IS is lux first, sport second, judging by looks (int/ext) alone..."

By the above, I think you have my idea of "sport" and "lux" down pretty pat, oac, because that's the exact impression I'm getting of the car. Wrong priorities for this class, IMO, unless we're willing to accept that the class is evolving away from itself (which I'm not, but it may be true anyway), in which case I suggest there is a class coming that will replace it, and down the road will be the sought-after driving experience (which I believe whole-heartedly).

"But looks can be deceiving. Until we get a test drive, we'll not be able to decide which one it leans more to. Would we ?"

Precisely so again. That may be taken as gospel, my friend!

oac

Japan's "Best Car Magazine" in its April 2005 edition mentioned an IS500 with a 5L V8 motor putting out about 400bhp to go against the C55 and M3. Hmmmmm !!!! Is this the so-called BMW-competition promised by Denny Clements and co ???

Guess we'll see.....

Read it here: http://www.leblogauto.com/toyota/

ps: It's in french so may need some translation. But I provide the gist above.

ivan_99

Eng...

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.leblogauto.com/toyota/

blueguydotcom

So far, no such car...

lexusguy

We'll see, though Im not expecting much before the end of the decade.

lexi4life

I don't think we can really thrust the guy who wrote the article... He says Toyota could build, for summer 2006, a super Corolla with 300hp and AWD to compete against the new Subaru Impreza WRX (that is supposed to be redesigned for June of this year with the new grille of the B9 looking like an Alfa Romeo's). I don't think Toyota would seriously go that way with the Corolla but the author says the car would be built to have the smallest impact possible on environment.

PS: I'm a french Canadian so I can all understand without the translation!!! :P

lexusguy

I was really surprised that they did the XRS with the Celica engine. An "Evo killa" would be an entirely different animal though. I seriously doubt a Corolla WRC edition would ever be sold to the public.

merc1

Well then you'll like the new 3's interior also. I got a chance to see the new 3 yesterday at the 3AcrossAmerica event. The interior is very bare just like BMWs (except the 7) have always been. Order one with out the nav and its a bare and imo plain as plain can be. The whole car is much larger, like the size of the 1989-1995 5-Series. The styling is much better in person though, not nearly as off putting as the 5 or 7-Series. The trunklid has been tamed and the side sills don't sag nearly as much as the 1-Series does. Overall I think BMW played as safe as possible while trying to keep the new 3 from looking like the orphan of the family.

Oac,

If you think the IS is going to be luxury first then the BMW 3-Series and Infiniti G35 aren't the competition then. Those cars wear the sport them on their sleeves and if Lexus want to compete it has to do the same, not be a mini GS or LS like you seem to think it should. Sure the new interior is miles better than the current IS, but the dynamics can't be that of a small GS.

M

wale_bate1

As long as it's set up well and comfortable, I'm good to go. I find the layout of my current IS cockpit almost ideal. A few buttons are put in odd and/or inconvenient locations, but all in all a very functional, mostly comfortable driver's cockpit. My only comfort complaint is that the seat cushion and back could use a tad more bolster support, a la the Audi's Recaros.

If they could take the exact cockpit of the '97-'98 Eclipse and update to modern sport/lux standard with decent materials I'd be in heaven; that is a driver's cockpit. To this day, I've never seen or, more importantly, driven better. I'd be predisposed to buy a car with that fantasy cockpit; the rest of the car be damned! ;-}

On the 3: I've noticed that the pics of the 5-series Touring evidence a much more appealing use overall of the styling idiom. It translates well as a wagon; much better, IMO, than as a sedan. Hopefully the 3 will follow this trend and the touring will present itself well. The current 325iT is not exactly homely, but it's not a exactly a looker either. That size increase, though, is potentially a serious deal-breaker for me. A 3 should be a 3 (compact) IMO, and a 5 should be a 5 (mid), and the twain should not meet. The upsizing trend appeals to me in no way.

blueguydotcom

Agreed. What happened to small, nimble sport sedans?!

tsx24

39 cent Super Sized - too many McDonalds for Americans=Supersized cars for Americans. ever seen a fat kid choking down a supersized double quarter pounder? how do you expect their parents to fit them in the back of a 3? If they just put airline food trays on the seat backs it would outsell everything on the market. who cares about driving dynamics - there is a table in the back seat & 64 ounce cup holders!

oac

If you think the IS is going to be luxury first then the BMW 3-Series and Infiniti G35 aren't the competition then.

If you can define what lux and sport are maybe I'd understand exactly what you mean here.

merc1

All I can say is that you need to drive the BMW and then the Lexus and see which trait stands out to you the most.

To me sport first would mean a slightly firmer ride, sharper steering, quicker turn-in, less body roll. You know like the difference between the M45 and the GS430. The minute you drive the M you realize that the engineers prioritized sport over luxury and the GS is the just the opposite.

I've noticed over the years that German cars, MBs and BMWs in particular thump or even clomp over the pavement like they're trying press the pavement flat. This was especially the case with older MBs. The only Japanese cars I've noticed this with are Infinitis. Now though in BMWs and Mercedes they're much quieter than they used to be so this isn't as noticeable as before. I'm not saying that this is a negative thing by any means it only adds to the sportiness of the car and its a byproduct of a sporty suspension design imo. In Mercedes' case it was their suspension keeping the tires as straight on the road as possible combined with the heft of the vehicle that produced this imo.

The current IS wears the sport theme on its sleeve, chest and down its back. I actually drove the IS300 when it first came and I really liked the way it drove, but the rest of the car was very off putting to me.

M

lexusguy

I'm with you. If they want the IS to continue to appeal to people that would otherwise never step foot in a Lexus store, and to actually do well in Europe, the driving abilities of the original have to still be there. A mini GS may appeal more to the Lexus faithful, but as I understand it the entire idea behind the original IS300 was that it was a car designed for people that would otherwise shop elsewhere. There are already plenty of cars for the Lexus faithful to chose from, including probably the most luxurious ride you can get in the mid $30s price range. They dont need another mid $30s luxury car. I'm all for a more "mature" IS, but it still has to go toe-to-toe with the 3 and G35 and A4, or nobody will care.

drfill

Pretty sure Lexus knows they have a cushy ride sitting in the next seat over, so this car is here to be your dancing machine

Question is will MT drivers keep the IS on their "Draft Board" if they have to wait until Fall of '06 or Spring of '07?

If it is known that the MT will be there in '06, they can skate around this issue.

The base engine HP deficit creates new and exciting problems.

I think it is pretty obvious from the level of interest in this forum (exceeds the New 3's forum comfortably), that Lexus has gotten a lot of the car right.

They've also chosen to make some interesting errors.

Lexus courts controversy. Maybe that's also part of the marketing strategy?

This new car is so good, we can drop 15-20HP!

DrFill

dewey

think it is pretty obvious from the level of interest in this forum (exceeds the New 3's forum comfortably), that Lexus has gotten a lot of the car right.

Yes, but there are more posts on BMW in this forum than in the BMW forum! :P

gee35coupe

blueguydotcom

39 cent Super Sized - too many McDonalds for Americans=Supersized cars for Americans. ever seen a fat kid choking down a supersized double quarter pounder? how do you expect their parents to fit them in the back of a 3? If they just put airline food trays on the seat backs it would outsell everything on the market. who cares about driving dynamics - there is a table in the back seat & 64 ounce cup holders!

You rule!

blueguydotcom

Lot of fireworks here too. 2006 board for the other car is quiet, save for people mentioning their deals or asking about deals.

shipo

Errr, well that might be about to change with the speculation surrounding the new twin sequential turbo 330 hp 335i, apparently due sometime next year.

Best Regards,
Shipo

wale_bate1

You guys are singing a tune I can stomach. Even Doc; up to a point! ;-]

Sorry oac, I never did answer the question, did I. Merc took care of it pretty well.

A comfortable ride is a good thing, but an isolationist ride typical of the LS, GS and ES is akin to walking with a few cc's of novocaine under the skin of your keester. For a sport sedan (or wagon), you should be able to feel the road without real harshness. Paving imperfections should be recognized, but as such, not as confidence-stripping shocks to the driver. BMW has had this wired for years. I remember my first ride in a '74 2002, and what a shock it was to feel such an extreme level of comfortable control, even from the passenger's seat!

The steering has to feel accurate. No better way to put that. It has to feel as though a millimeter of input creates an immediate corresponding (appropriate) reaction from the car. You must also be able to feel the imperfections in the road through the wheel. It has to be a part of the communication system, and not hamper or dampen it. The whole thing should feel like a scalpel in the hands of a surgeon.

We're looking for a low level of body roll. Nothing worse than a pig that wallows through transitions! Makes it feel as if it's gonna break loose on you at any moment.

I guess it really is more or less about being firm where others are soft, and virtually all of this comes down to how the car feels when cornering. Not lane changing or stop light charging, but in the curves that you can negotiate easily when others are resorting to their brakes to find confidence.

On the interior: the seating must give support. It should be comfortable for long drives, certainly, but not plush and gathered and never living room inspired. Lateral support is an absolute must. Substantial, firm bolsters for the legs and back are the idea, so that a left turn doesn't make you feel like you'll end up in the passenger's seat (I read that one somewhere). Emphasis on placement of all necessary controls and readouts where the driver can best take advantage of them, without compromising to a styling theme. From the pics, I'd say it appears they got this part more or less correct. Materials should evidence quality, but need not be particularly decorative.

Not enough time to wax eloquent now (not that I ever do), but hopefully the sport desires are gaining clarity. Anyone else wanna help?

As far as lux goes, gadgets, soft seating, mega watt and ultra-multi-speaker sound systems, driver "enhancement" programming, wood or plood trims, stylie dials, involved HVAC systems, driver information centers, etc., are the details that should be additive at the buyer's discretion, IMO, and never the primary focus of the car. Icing on a cake. No, not even icing. That's the decoration, not the substance. To a certainty I want some of it (a little lux), but not all, and definitely of my choosing. I definitely do not want it to represent the primary salient points of the car.

Doc: "If it is known that the MT will be there in '06, they can skate around this issue..." I believe I can agree with that. If those interested know that it's in the works from the get go, they will take the car as seriously as if it were already there. If it happens down the road and appears to be a reactive afterthought, or not at all, then Houston, I think we have a problem.

blueguydotcom

Wale wrote: Doc: "If it is known that the MT will be there in '06, they can skate around this issue..." I believe I can agree with that. If those interested know that it's in the works from the get go, they will take the car as seriously as if it were already there. If it happens down the road and appears to be a reactive afterthought, or not at all, then Houston, I think we have a problem.

I agree. All Lexus has to do is declare a manual is coming. Offer that olive branch.

but twice today I've heard excellent news... a 330i with a turbo is rumored and even better a Mazdaspeed3 hatch is supposedly going to be out by this fall! 258 hp in that awesome little car...

kyfdx

258 HP through the front wheels? I'll pass..

200-215 would be just about all the useable HP on that platform, unless you add AWD.

blueguydotcom

Who said it was through the front wheels? The M6 has AWD and Volvo uses AWD in the same platform for it's 40/50 series. The platform and the awd system matched to that engine exist already...