Why negotiate the cost of the car vs. the monthly payment?
Never, ever, negotiate based on monthly payment. You're playing into 4 square which only benefits the dealer.
I can't believe visitors to this site still don't know how to negotiate a lease:
1. Cap cost first 2. MF/Residual 3. No down payment. Never put money down on a lease. defeats the purpose of leasing. 4. Make sure the company has gap insurance. 5. Trade-in if you want to get bent over by dealer. Exception: you convince them to buy a car sight unseen that you know is worth less than what is offered.
With a lease, usually you're most concerned with what you pay monthly. It would take a while for you to calculate the cap cost every time you want to make a counter-offer.
That's why you negotiate the SALE price before ever muttering the words lease. That's also why you should know the MF buy rate for the model. Dealers mark up the buy rate - some tack on 1-2 points. More unscrupulous places tack on 10. So a buy rate for the MF of 0.0010 becomes 0.0020 in the hands of a naughty dealer. That's 2.4% higher.
One last thing...leases aren't voodoo. Go to leaseguide.com and use the calculator. Are people actually leasing and they don't know how the figure is derrived? you should know your numbers before negotiating the lease at the dealership.
Relating to the IS discussion... how do you think the residual values are going to be? The G35x has a 58% residual for 36 months, 15k miles/year. How will the IS compare?
I'd bet the same or quite possibly higher.. Like BMW, Lexus has a propensity for propping up early leases with really high residuals. Of course, like BMW, Lexus vehicles realistically retain value too.
and still no info on pricing? Doesn't the IS go on sale October 1st? Heck, even if it's Oct 15th that's only 3 weeks away. Any Lexus employees on this thread that knows 100% for sure when the car will hit the lots?
The point was that since you can go from one perspective to another with a mathematical formula, what's the difference between the 2 ways of thinking about it.
How do you find out the Money Factor buy rate? Infiniti said that I would have a .002 MF based on their recent graduate deal. Maybe that's not such a good deal.
Ben, I know at other forums online and even the purchase forums here at Edmunds you can find knowledgeable people who know the MFs for the various manufacturers.
At the BMW 3 series purchase forum at Edmunds a person can find this month's MF with a simple search/question. I'd assume this holds true for Infiniti/Acura/Lexus.
And no a Money Factor of 0.0020 is not that hot. That's about 4.8% - ouch. BMW's using a ludicrously high 0.0025 (6%) right now on the 3 series and people are still leasing it! I can't even begin to believe people are spending $550 a month on leases of the 325i. to each his own...
Given Lexus' savvy marketing, I'm expecting the IS250 will have some nice lease deals at the launch and through the first year.
Got lost in all the leasing talk there: tight upholstery is good (as opposed to gathered leathers), well defined bolstering is good and so that sounds promising. I don't remember the seating in the G35.
I was in a friend's new M3 this morning. Those are the kind of seats I'm looking for. Talk about bolstering. Talk about adjustability (thigh support). And (this is for BGDC and acouple others) it was in Cinnamon. Talk about the right color! The seats in the S4 (from Recaro) are along the same lines.
Seems to me the 350 would be a prime candidate for such seating. Would be a logical addition to any sport package [hint, hint Lexus]...
...mmmm... ... I made a post a few months back about what people's favourite tones of leather would be, and surprisingly nobody seemed interested. What would everyone's favourites be? I would say that a cinnamon would be delicious (a very rich tan-brown), cherry, the right kind of forest green, or even a nice deep navy. Lexus should definitely give us a choice besides grey, cashmere, and black.
Not that I have anything against these colours, but if Lexus wants to inject some SPICE into the interior, then at least offer cinnamon! Indeed, talk about the right colour!
Seems to me if they can muster up a like color for a pug like the SC (Saddle) it shouldn't be too tough to offer it in other models. It's not like the SC is a halo car or something.
They had an LS in the showroom at my Lexus dealership last year that had saddle tan in it, and boy was it gorgeous. They also offer cherry leather in the SC pebble beach edition!!! Have you seen that interior? Now, if they can bring all this to their halo car. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to do this. We'll see what the future has to offer. It's not like it's the end of the line for the IS, afterall, it hasn't even hit showrooms. Black Bird's Eye Maple would be a better choice for the wood as well. I should be designing interiors for Lexus. I wouldn't mind if they paid me to be a consultant on something like this for them.
Haven't seen that, Mike, but cherry sounds nice. I have to be honest and say that the SC kind of turns my tummy, other than that Saddle color.
Unfortunately, if past history is an indicator, the IS would get a color like that as some absurd special edition, and it will be lumped together with some other irrelevent trim bits, like maybe "Jimmy D'Aquitso Birch Marquetry Inlays" and the "birch and leather" steering wheel and shift knob, and possibly some useless exterior cues like 20-spoke savana gold rims and matching exhaust tip!
I'm kidding mostly. It would be nice to see it offered as part of the line up. Certainly that would be the color of choice for me.
Too bad the Alcantara option isn't inserts with leather. Or maybe it is and I'm not reading that correctly (my Switzer-deutsch ain't nuthin' to write home about). Alcantara is amazing stuff.
I have a Benz connection I didn't know about. Turns out a fellow soccer dad with whom I've shot the breeze at a number of games over the last three seasons owns a Benz stand. Obviously, both of us have an a serious lack of curiosity about each other's work! He's adamant that before I pull the trigger on anything I have to go play with a C350 he's got set up properly. I said "okay" but I'm even more skeptical of Benz than Lexus to deliver what I'm looking for. Only one thing I know the Benz can deliver that could beat the IS350 hands down, and that's the seven-speed automatic.
I just test drove the new Lexus IS350 and I must say that I was, generally speaking, quite impressed. The acceleration was phenomenal -- definitely the best in it's class -- but what really surprised me was the brakes. They were, in my opinion, also the best in class. Not only did they provide great stopping power but the feel and modulation was exceptional, too. Again, best in class.
On the downside, and this is the only "absolute" downside that I found, the back seats are unfit for human use. If you need to carry anyone larger than your average-sized ten-year-old regularly in the backseat, then this is probably not the car for you. Likewise, for those who care and need it, the rear seats do not fold down although there is a pass-through.
For comparison, I test drove the latest e90 BMW 330i. It was not as quick or fast and (surprisingly) although the brakes were great, they still were not quite the equal of the IS350's.
Where the BMW did beat the Lexus was in steering feel (not at all surprising) and handling. The BMW simply communicates much better. Mind you, the Lexus wasn't bad at all (and from having personally driven it, I will argue with the Lexus nay-sayers on this board) but the BMW was better.
And as for the Lexus VDIM, it was surprisingly unobtrusive. Don't get me wrong, when I pushed the car to the very limit I suspected it was interfering with my driving -- and thus, I wish there was a "kill switch" for it -- but it was still so balanced that really did not interfere with my driving. That might not come out right but if and when you test drive the IS350 for yourselves, I think you'll understand what I mean.
In comparing the two, I think the Lexus is the more comfortable (in the front), luxurious, better looking (both interior and exterior) and better performing. However, the BMW has more hospitable rear seats (fold down, too) and is better handling and (consequently) more fun to drive. But I still argue with anyone who says the Lexus is not fun to drive: it is. Indeed, it's a lot more fun to drive than the old IS300 (sans stick) and possibly even the old e39 BMW 330.
For me, I'll lean towards the Lexus IS350. In every day driving, from being stuck in traffic to accelarating on the on-ramp to decelarating off, it is more capable than the BMW 330i. If I'm ever at the slaloms, then the BMW would get the nod.
The BMW may be the more fun but the Lexus is the better car.
Newcars...if the 330i had fold down rear seats the chassis was actually a weaker version of the tightest 330i made. The 330i without fold down rears should has a stiffer chassis and thus better handling.
(News at the end) Invested the day to go down and back to the Taste Of Lexus in Belmont Park (NY). They did a pretty nice job. I had spoken to them earlier in the week (to add a guest) and they said they were completely booked. I was worried about crowds. I drove 3 times - total wait time for all 3 together was 20-25 minutes. I assume I walked past "newcars" (above) standing in the (longer) IS350 line. :-) [EDIT: or not, since newcars probably was in the Washington event.]
I drove an AWD IS250 twice, had a bit of lunch, and tried a GS300.
In reverse order - the GS was boring to me - too isolated, never felt nimble. Of course, total drive time is likely under a minute on each of these drives, but I had a completely different opinion of the IS. Never drove the 350 - I don't care about that level of power, and I want AWD. (Note to readers driven by their need for MT or 300+hp - skip the post - nothing for you here. ;-)
To agree with newcars - this thing is SMALL inside in the back, and not just at your feet. I sat next to someone whose head was touching the trim around the rear window when he sat in the back. Adults can fit back there, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. In fact, I thought it was tight everywhere - the front was comfortable, but at 5 ft 10 I am not overly tall, and I felt the headroom was limited in front also. There was a sunroof, and I can see how taller folks might want to go without. I'll need a little more time in one to decide if this car is too small. I also had a vague sense that the thing is covered in buttons and controls, but didn't focus on that much - I was there to drive!! :-)
I had been concerned that the IS250AWD would be a dog - too slow and heavy. I remembered how disappointed I was in an AT Acura TSX - 201 hp (at high rpm) and 160 (ish) lb/ft - just felt sluggish. So at 205/184, and probably heavier, I had low expectations. I do know that the Lexus 205 is probably comparable to 215 or so under the same SAE standard, however, and the torque is better, and the hp peak is at lower rpm.
I was very pleasantly surprised - it felt quick to me, and was just fun to drive - handling was great. The first time through the course I took it moderately, but the second time I left the AT in "2", and skipped through the first "emergency chicane" (a cardboard image of a tire rolling out from behind a barrier) at speed. Very flat and composed behavior. I also took the chance to stand on the brakes hard in this run, and thought they behaved very well, after hours of being driven hard. I really like this car.
(Nugget for the 350 fans: I saw one woman get out laughing her head off and smiling hugely over how fast and fun the IS350 was to drive. Nice to see the enjoyment.)
The news (at least to me, I haven't seen this): One of the product "answer folks" went off to track down the answer to this question for me: "How is the power split front/rear in the AWD system, and to what limits?" The answer - normally it is 30% front / 70% rear. It can go up to a 50/50 split. Similar perhaps (testing my memory here) to what BMW does. (I also got a "this is preliminary" disclaimer, but I can live with that.)
I'll definitely go see it in the showrooms, when I can take a longer drive and sit in it a bit more. Price will play a part. Tim
There is no way the option of fold down rear seats would make the structure weaker. It should be the same, you just have seats that are able to fold down. The steel structure is exactly the same. If you meant the protection from a rear end crash, it may be weaker, but not too weak to notice.
Actually... the structure isn't the same... In a 3-series without fold-down rear seats, there is X-bracing behind the seats that the model with the fold-down seats doesn't have...
And, most 3-series don't have fold-down rear seats.. They are part of the $1000 Cold Weather Package... or, you can get them as a stand-alone option for $475... But, most stock cars just have heated seats, and don't have the CWS... or the fold-down seats...
Most BMW owners that track their cars or do autocross, won't buy one with the fold-down seat option... nor, will they buy a coupe, as that structure is inherently weaker than the sedan..
By the way, I also got the "unoffficial" official pricing from Lexus ("sh, don't tell anyone") and I think most of us will find the IS350 to be quite competitively priced.
Besides, It's still not "officially official" yet so it could change. But I don't think I'm breaking anyone's confidence when I say that most people will find the price very competitive.
You wrote: In comparing the two, I think the Lexus is the more comfortable (in the front), luxurious, better looking (both interior and exterior) and better performing. However, the BMW has more hospitable rear seats (fold down, too) and is better handling and (consequently) more fun to drive.
One can take that to mean a) the car you drove had fold down rear seats, b) you believe fold down rear seats are standard on the e90, c) possibly that you mean the e90 has optional fold down rear seats. Honestly, C is the most unlikely given that sentence as there's no indication you know fold downs are an extra cost item.
It's not hard to believe Lexus would put an e90 out there sporting the fold down rear seats. Considering the following video taken at a Lexus event a week ago, it's easy to imagine Toyota will misrepresent the competition: http://s91874328.onlinehome.us/lexus.avi
I won't address the rest of your ah hominem attacks.
The IS350 actually has a 320bhp under the old SAE system, hence it is a very fast car for a compact, weight notwithstanding..... So, I think that under normal everyday driving, short of a slalom, drag racing, F1 racing or NASCAR oval racing, then the IS350 is a better car than the e90 330i. It looks better, is much better attired, faster, better brakes, better performance, a tad less in handling and steering feedback.... and maybe better priced.... Then the IS350 will be a winner by *most consumer's* standard.
Which then leads to this question: why is Lexus making such a small quantity of the IS350 ????? It must be to protect the GS twins, imo, until the GS350/460/450h replacements arrive by MY2007/08. I suspect the coupe/hardtop IS350 or the V8 variant of the IS may be here about the same time as well.
When Lexus talks about modeling its new releases after the Bimmer, most BMW officianados limit this to the legendary BMW feel.... to which I must disagree.... it is not just about the steering feel, or handling, or speed, or braking, it includes the staggered releases with always something new to retain interest in the brand....
IS350 Oct 2005 GS450h Mar 2006 GS350 Oct 2006 LS460 Oct 2006 GS460 Mar 2007 LS600h Oct 2007 IS500 Oct 2007
Long time lurker...So, I just test drove all three (two at taste of lexus in MD) and here are my thoughts. Firstly, I think every car has a market (yes, even the Aztek) otherwise they would have 0 sales. So, with that here is my profile. 30 years old, married, 2 kids (5 and 1), 200K family income, current ride is 2000 A4 2.8 manual w/ 125K miles
1) Exterior - All three look nice, i think this is completely based on personal preference so I wont even go there. G35 and 330 looks are more distincitve than 350 which wins some points. I actually prefer the exterior styling of the 330
2) Interior - I am a software engineer so i love the utilitarian approach of the 330. With that, I thought the 350 did a nice job of putting eveything together. Really pleased witht the steering shifters - felt more like metal than plastic. You sit really low in the 350 much lower than I expected. lower than the 330 but not as low as the g35
3) Drive - holy crap. the 350 is fast as anything. the 330 is slower. I couldnt tell you if the 350 was doing 5.1 or 5.6 or 6.0 but it was fast. The g35 feels faster but I think it might be due to wheelspin and a psychological effect. The 330 didnt stick to the road as well as the 350 or the g35. I could tell the difference between the lex and my a4. its felt great. I liked the feeling better than the 330. The g35 is completely differnent though...much more rough feeeling
4) Manual vs. Stick - i drive alot and I love my manual a4. But you know what, my back could do without a stick now. I think i need an automatic. And I have no problems with lex not having stick. Its more than just dropping a manual tranny. Its warranty issues, parts issues, cost issues, future model year issues, etc. Its probably not with the extra 1 or 2k sales per month...
5) Leg room - front awesome. Back totally sucks. Looks like its less than my a4.
6) I have pictures of the lighted door sill if anyone is interested.
I spend the better part of the day working through my feelings about the 330 vs. the g35 vs. the 350. I put tons of miles on my cars and I keep them for very long time so I dont care about risidual value. I need something super reliable and cheap(er) to fix when something goes wrong. So the 330 is out. I drive about 1 hr each way to work so I need an automatic and I need to have some fun and a good interior. So the g35 is out. Sure, the 350 is more expensive, but initially this might be it for me. I think I need more time w/ her though Ill wait on a final decision until i can drive one for more than 22 seconds.
It might appear to be skewed but think for a momment about this: The 3 was an AT 330i.
The AT 350 (5.1 secs 0-60mph) is faster than the MT 330i (6.1 secs 0-60mph? Someone correct me if I am wrong).
I would THINK that the 306 ponies are a taaaad faster off the line. You don't know for sure anyways until you test drive yourself though.
Even though the numbers used in the C&D were figured by using their "proprietary" method, all models in the comparo were subject to this manipulation. Either way, the IS 350 did jump off the line like a bat outta hell! That, you cannot deny!
For those here who have sat in or seen the backseat of the 03'-present Toyota Corolla, how does the rear seat of the IS compare to it? I'm am thinking IS or 06' Avalon :surprise:
Either way, the IS 350 did jump off the line like a bat outta hell! That, you cannot deny!
That's what most of us have an issue with...and the reason the video clip has very audible booing. It was obvious the driver of the 330 didn't hit off the line.
Gotta admit Zaidi's point about longterm is big, big, big plus for the IS350 over the 330i. The idea of getting a slick, fun, super reliable sport sedan is unbelievably enticing. You guys have no idea how much time I've had my current car in for service. Over 4 weeks total, I'd say if you include the entire weekends they had my car.
The tranny of the IS350 that scares the hell out of me longterm though. Automatics are extremely frail and very unreliable. And they're crazy expensive to repair. Every person I know with over 100k on an automatic has had to have the tranny serviced. Yeah, yeah plenty of anecdotes can follow but I hear the words $6000 repair bill and I know short of blowing up an engine it's tough for a manual to ever be that expensive to fix.
If you went to the TAste of Lexus event at Belmont Park, I assume you live in the tri-state area. Would you consider a RWD IS250? It will do everything the AWD IS250 can do, but better. Faster acceleration, more neutral handling, shorter braking, better fuel economy, and most of all a cheaper price. BUy youself a set of winter wheels and snow tires for the winter months (December to early March) and you'll be able to enjoy the car MUCH more for the 360 days a year that we don't have a bad snowstorm here in NY/NJ/CT.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Wow why do you have such a negative view of an automatic tranny? Modern automatic trannys especially on a Lexus/Toyota are very reliable. Manuals can wear out much faster then an automatic if driven incorrectly. (P.S. I love manuals so dont start bashing me)
"It [the Lexus IS350] looks better, is much better attired, faster, better brakes, better performance, a tad less in handling and steering feedback.... and maybe better priced."
The ride was great. I confess that the times I was driving the IS350 I was pushing hard, so I don't know how well it behaves in more "civilized" driving. But from pushing it hard, I can tell you that it was very well behaved and civilized. The ride is not hard by any stretch of the imagination but it is firm. Well-behaved and well-controlled.
Comparing it to the BMW is interesting. The BMW was probably a tad more well-behaved and well-controlled but not by much. The "interesting" thing is -- and I amit that I'm about to play on the brand cliches for a bit -- that I probably preferred the BMW when I was driving but preferred the Lexus when my wife was driving. (She drives hard, too.) It probably a "feedback vs. composure" thing: with the BMW having slightly more of the former while the Lexus has slightly more of the latter.
By the way, if you haven't test driven the Lexus yet, you'll probably need at least two trips with it. The first time on the cross I so underestimated the brakes that I hit them too soon in the first corner. The next time on the course I realized how well the brakes were and was able to get the most out of them. And the car.
Again, in sum, the Lexus IS350 is not a bad handling car by any stretch. However, the BMW 330 does handle (and feel) better. On the other hand, while the BMW 330 is a good performance car, the Lexus is definitely better performing (and luxurious).
As one of the editors of one of the articles in one of the major car magazines told me a few weeks ago -- indeed, this person was one of the test drivers and author of one of the articles that certain people who have never driven the car think they are quoting with authority -- it really depends on where you want to make your trade-off. This individual personally prefers the BMW but he said he would have no problem recommending the Lexus over it to some "performance drivers."
test drove the IS250, 330i, and SC430 at belmont park. Believe or not, off the line I thought the IS250 was quicker than the 330i. Maybe because of the AWD gave the IS250 the initial better traction. Unfortunately to get a good idea on how each car handles you need to drive it a couple of times and I didn't feel like waiting on line all day. IS interior is excellent. However, I am only 5'9" and my head is just about touching the roof. I am sure there is a way to adjust the seats. The front seat cushion just about touches the floor so if you are seating in the back seat you can't put you feet underneath the front seat. It should be interesting what the MRSP is for the IS250 and IS350.
Is the new IS350 out and available at dealers? There is no info here on Edmunds and the Lexus website even says it's "coming".... How are all these people driving it?
Taste of Lexus Event in FedEx Field - Washington DC
This was a great event! Having experienced the adolescent crazyness from both previous Mazda Rev-It-Up events, this one was much more relaxed and stress free. The constant flow of free food and drinks in a sofa-filled tent really made the hour-long waits easier to justify. They also had free massage sessions and had a pro golfer on hand to give free golf swing analysis. The porta-poties were the best I've ever seen: wood patterned laminate flooring, automatic faucets, real flushing fixtures, and a background music system.
First car I drove was the 530i. The car felt slow, soft, and generally not very exciting. It would make a great grand touring car and certainly better than the E500 in the driving dynamics department, but I wonder how much better it is than say a nice Acura TL. I kept wanting to lay back and drive it with one hand instead of both even while I was pushing it hard. It was a wierd sensation.
Then I drove the IS250. The car accelerated much better than I would have expected for 200HP and an automatic transmission. Handling was predictable and the car had great brakes. I feels much better than the 530i in terms of being light on its feet. I enjoyed it and feel that for many people, this will be all that they need for a sporty entry level luxury sedan. It certainly is better than the Acura TSX.
Next I drove the 330i. OH MY GAWD. No wonder this is the benchmark of the segment. Coming from the IS250, the strong acceleration of the 330i is a kick in the pants. Slowing down prior to the first corner, the brakes were very strong and easy to modulate. As I get around the corner and shift to the accelerator the power engagement was immediate. I was shocked. No matter how good an automatic transmission is, I had always been accustomed to a short delay between application of throttle and delivery of power. I am not talking about a downshift, but a delay even if the transmission was smart enough to stay in the same gear. But the 330i behaved like it had a manual transmission with clutch plates connected to a cable-throttle engine. The power was immediate, responsive and could be finely modulated to guide the car through the turn. But what really made this car stand out was the suspension and handling - it gave me a sense of revelation that borders on a religeous experience. "This is what they were talking about" I thought to myself. The old cliches such as "corners like its on rails", "razor sharp handling", "goes where you point it", "telepathic connection between driver and car" - they all apply. The car was not only fast, but was easy to drive fast. When it occured to me by the second corner that touching the brakes or gas to go through mid-corner made little difference, I stuck to the gas for the remainder of the track. This is a driver's car and absolutely the best one I've had the chance to drive up until now.
With the grin fom driving the 330i still on my face, I got into a IS350. The acceleration from this beast is unnerving. It's a gush of torque that pushes me hard against the seat. The power advantage that this car has over the 330i is substantial. Around the corners, the IS350 felt better than the IS250. I had read somewhere that the IS250 was preferred over the IS350 in terms of handling, but I just felt that the IS350 was more sure-footed, had less body motion and didn't feel as strained or on-edge as the IS250. It felt faster without feeling out of control.
When I got out of the IS350 I was grinning, but it was still the same grin from the 330i. The IS350 is no doubt faster in a straight line - the crushing power and buttery-smooth delivery from that wonderful engine is something that will stay with me for a long time. It's like taking a large bite from a really really good cheese cake - rich, creamy, and satisfying. If I wanted a very nice car with the best acceleration, the IS350 would be my choice. But I want a very nice car with the best performance, and the 330i with its wonderfully responsive powertrain and communicative and neutral suspension came out the clear winner in my mind.
It may just be that Lexus didn't want to top the 330i in terms of raw performance. The Lexus IS cars' softness can also be interpreted as being more comfortable and thus easier to live with on a day-to-day basis. Every car has trade-offs and a performance-oriented luxury car must decide how much performance must be sacrificed in order to deliver an adequate level of luxury in the ride. I won't go so far as to say that the IS cars are inferior to the 330i, but they certainly have a different tune. So make up your mind what your priorities are and the decision should be easy after that.
September 28th japan debut (release party) October 2nd msrp official release (pricing) October 3rd japan release date October 5th-14th usa dealer delivery dates (Big volume dealers get first pick at colors and options example NY, LA, ATL, DFW. Small volume dealers will buy inventory from big volume dealers until 1st quarter 2006. October 15th usa release date (in showroom date)
Yes - tri-state. Ashokan Reservoir area (near Woodstock NY). I might agree with all the benefits you suggest for the RWD - and I might consider an MT (but probably not - too many times where I had something broken (like my leg) or drove in bumper-bumper to go that way again).
However - my driveway is long, and very steep - I don't think RWD and traction control will do it in bad weather. I can always get down of course, although stopping can be an issue :-( Plus, I essentially live on the side of a mountain - an eastern-US old (and thus low) mountain, but a mountain nonetheless. It's rural - snow clearance can take some time. The drive is bad enough that we considered moving it, but the terrain doesn't really support it. (Why, you ask, would I live here? Great view.) I think in 2001 we had 14-15 storms that dropped 4 inches or more.
I must say, the AWD seemed (on the short drive) quick enough, and handled beautifully. I may give up mileage (although some suggest the MT will get about the same due to gearing), but versus the alternatives I looked at I worry about reliability (audi, volvo, mercedes and dare I say bmw without starting a war), fun (I have an RX300 - no fun at all), and to a degree mileage (I drove and liked a G35x, but there's bad gas mileage). I have a Subaru, but it isn't as nice. They are (to me) underpowered at 165hp, or overpowered at 250 (plus whatever the torque figures are) and I'm back in bad gas mileage.
BTW, I do the snow tires and wheels things on top of the AWD. November to late April :-)
I finally put my 500 dollar deposit for an allocation spot. My dealer is getting 4 in October, I'm on the list. It is refundable if the options/color choice I want do not come in. Unfortunately the allocation in October is pre-set, which is very weird. Funny thing, they still don't know what the price is, but they took my 500 pretty quick.
I did the following calculations, for a quick comparison. Hopefully it comes true!
BMW 550i (Cold,Prem Sound,Sport,Steptronic,Comfort Access,ActiveCruise,Nav) 67945 GS430 (Fully Loaded, basically all options of the 550i) 59064 Price Difference: 15%
BMW X5 3.0 (Premium,Cold,Sport,Auto,Xenon,Nav,Prem Sound) 54920 RX330 (Fully Loaded, basically all the options of the X5) 45708 Price Difference 20%
BMW 750i(Premium,Cold,Convenience,Adaptaptive Ride) 78295 LS430 (Fully loaded, much more than the 750, though unsure if you would cross-shop the 2, seems like a better S-Class competitor than 7 series for some reason) 66579 Price Difference 18%
Average Price Difference: 17.6%
Fully Loaded 330i : 48070
@ 17.6% discount. 39609?? Even at a 15% discount = 41000?
Lexus seems ambitious with it's 40,000 sales goal (Or more) which will hopefully equate to an aggressive pricing schedule.
If the price of the IS350 is, as someone said, 46000, I'm getting the 330i, which are leaving the lots with discounts. IS350 will not sell below MSRP for a couple of months. We'll see on October 3rd.
I you liked the power of the 330i & IS350, do yourself a favor and drive the M3 as well as the Audi S4. If you live in DC and you want a performance car with all wheel drive, the Audi S4 is the answer.
Comments
Never, ever, negotiate based on monthly payment. You're playing into 4 square which only benefits the dealer.
I can't believe visitors to this site still don't know how to negotiate a lease:
1. Cap cost first
2. MF/Residual
3. No down payment. Never put money down on a lease. defeats the purpose of leasing.
4. Make sure the company has gap insurance.
5. Trade-in if you want to get bent over by dealer. Exception: you convince them to buy a car sight unseen that you know is worth less than what is offered.
With a lease, usually you're most concerned with what you pay monthly. It would take a while for you to calculate the cap cost every time you want to make a counter-offer.
That's why you negotiate the SALE price before ever muttering the words lease. That's also why you should know the MF buy rate for the model. Dealers mark up the buy rate - some tack on 1-2 points. More unscrupulous places tack on 10. So a buy rate for the MF of 0.0010 becomes 0.0020 in the hands of a naughty dealer. That's 2.4% higher.
One last thing...leases aren't voodoo. Go to leaseguide.com and use the calculator. Are people actually leasing and they don't know how the figure is derrived? you should know your numbers before negotiating the lease at the dealership.
Relating to the IS discussion... how do you think the residual values are going to be? The G35x has a 58% residual for 36 months, 15k miles/year. How will the IS compare?
I'd bet the same or quite possibly higher.. Like BMW, Lexus has a propensity for propping up early leases with really high residuals. Of course, like BMW, Lexus vehicles realistically retain value too.
ie... negotiating the price of an Avalon... yes... Avalon Touring (either IS or Avalon in my mind :confuse: ).
Any Lexus employees on this thread that knows 100% for sure when the car will hit the lots?
Residual = Residual_% * MSRP
AdjustedCapCost = (MSRP + AquisitionFee + TaxTitleEtc) – (DownPayment + TradeIn)
Montly Payment = (AdjustedCapCost - Residual)/(# of months) + (AdjustedCapCost + Residual)*MoneyFactor
The point was that since you can go from one perspective to another with a mathematical formula, what's the difference between the 2 ways of thinking about it.
How do you find out the Money Factor buy rate? Infiniti said that I would have a .002 MF based on their recent graduate deal. Maybe that's not such a good deal.
At the BMW 3 series purchase forum at Edmunds a person can find this month's MF with a simple search/question. I'd assume this holds true for Infiniti/Acura/Lexus.
And no a Money Factor of 0.0020 is not that hot. That's about 4.8% - ouch. BMW's using a ludicrously high 0.0025 (6%) right now on the 3 series and people are still leasing it! I can't even begin to believe people are spending $550 a month on leases of the 325i. to each his own...
Given Lexus' savvy marketing, I'm expecting the IS250 will have some nice lease deals at the launch and through the first year.
I was in a friend's new M3 this morning. Those are the kind of seats I'm looking for. Talk about bolstering. Talk about adjustability (thigh support). And (this is for BGDC and acouple others) it was in Cinnamon. Talk about the right color! The seats in the S4 (from Recaro) are along the same lines.
Seems to me the 350 would be a prime candidate for such seating. Would be a logical addition to any sport package [hint, hint Lexus]...
Not that I have anything against these colours, but if Lexus wants to inject some SPICE into the interior, then at least offer cinnamon! Indeed, talk about the right colour!
Make something unique!!! :mad:
Seems to me.
;-]
And I too like tight leather...none of the soft gushy stuff like they use in the G35
Unfortunately, if past history is an indicator, the IS would get a color like that as some absurd special edition, and it will be lumped together with some other irrelevent trim bits, like maybe "Jimmy D'Aquitso Birch Marquetry Inlays" and the "birch and leather" steering wheel and shift knob, and possibly some useless exterior cues like 20-spoke savana gold rims and matching exhaust tip!
I'm kidding mostly. It would be nice to see it offered as part of the line up. Certainly that would be the color of choice for me.
I don't care if they call it "last night's horse dung", it's what leather ought to look like! IMO, of course.
;-]
or
http://www.lexusclub.ch/main/files/dokumente/Lexus_IS250_Produkt-Information.pdf
One of these should work...........enjoy
Too bad the Alcantara option isn't inserts with leather. Or maybe it is and I'm not reading that correctly (my Switzer-deutsch ain't nuthin' to write home about). Alcantara is amazing stuff.
I have a Benz connection I didn't know about. Turns out a fellow soccer dad with whom I've shot the breeze at a number of games over the last three seasons owns a Benz stand. Obviously, both of us have an a serious lack of curiosity about each other's work! He's adamant that before I pull the trigger on anything I have to go play with a C350 he's got set up properly. I said "okay" but I'm even more skeptical of Benz than Lexus to deliver what I'm looking for. Only one thing I know the Benz can deliver that could beat the IS350 hands down, and that's the seven-speed automatic.
Anybody here spent intimate time with a C350?
On the downside, and this is the only "absolute" downside that I found, the back seats are unfit for human use. If you need to carry anyone larger than your average-sized ten-year-old regularly in the backseat, then this is probably not the car for you. Likewise, for those who care and need it, the rear seats do not fold down although there is a pass-through.
For comparison, I test drove the latest e90 BMW 330i. It was not as quick or fast and (surprisingly) although the brakes were great, they still were not quite the equal of the IS350's.
Where the BMW did beat the Lexus was in steering feel (not at all surprising) and handling. The BMW simply communicates much better. Mind you, the Lexus wasn't bad at all (and from having personally driven it, I will argue with the Lexus nay-sayers on this board) but the BMW was better.
And as for the Lexus VDIM, it was surprisingly unobtrusive. Don't get me wrong, when I pushed the car to the very limit I suspected it was interfering with my driving -- and thus, I wish there was a "kill switch" for it -- but it was still so balanced that really did not interfere with my driving. That might not come out right but if and when you test drive the IS350 for yourselves, I think you'll understand what I mean.
In comparing the two, I think the Lexus is the more comfortable (in the front), luxurious, better looking (both interior and exterior) and better performing. However, the BMW has more hospitable rear seats (fold down, too) and is better handling and (consequently) more fun to drive. But I still argue with anyone who says the Lexus is not fun to drive: it is. Indeed, it's a lot more fun to drive than the old IS300 (sans stick) and possibly even the old e39 BMW 330.
For me, I'll lean towards the Lexus IS350. In every day driving, from being stuck in traffic to accelarating on the on-ramp to decelarating off, it is more capable than the BMW 330i. If I'm ever at the slaloms, then the BMW would get the nod.
The BMW may be the more fun but the Lexus is the better car.
Invested the day to go down and back to the Taste Of Lexus in Belmont Park (NY). They did a pretty nice job. I had spoken to them earlier in the week (to add a guest) and they said they were completely booked. I was worried about crowds. I drove 3 times - total wait time for all 3 together was 20-25 minutes. I assume I walked past "newcars" (above) standing in the (longer) IS350 line. :-) [EDIT: or not, since newcars probably was in the Washington event.]
I drove an AWD IS250 twice, had a bit of lunch, and tried a GS300.
In reverse order - the GS was boring to me - too isolated, never felt nimble. Of course, total drive time is likely under a minute on each of these drives, but I had a completely different opinion of the IS. Never drove the 350 - I don't care about that level of power, and I want AWD. (Note to readers driven by their need for MT or 300+hp - skip the post - nothing for you here. ;-)
To agree with newcars - this thing is SMALL inside in the back, and not just at your feet. I sat next to someone whose head was touching the trim around the rear window when he sat in the back. Adults can fit back there, but I wouldn't want to make a habit of it. In fact, I thought it was tight everywhere - the front was comfortable, but at 5 ft 10 I am not overly tall, and I felt the headroom was limited in front also. There was a sunroof, and I can see how taller folks might want to go without. I'll need a little more time in one to decide if this car is too small. I also had a vague sense that the thing is covered in buttons and controls, but didn't focus on that much - I was there to drive!! :-)
I had been concerned that the IS250AWD would be a dog - too slow and heavy. I remembered how disappointed I was in an AT Acura TSX - 201 hp (at high rpm) and 160 (ish) lb/ft - just felt sluggish. So at 205/184, and probably heavier, I had low expectations. I do know that the Lexus 205 is probably comparable to 215 or so under the same SAE standard, however, and the torque is better, and the hp peak is at lower rpm.
I was very pleasantly surprised - it felt quick to me, and was just fun to drive - handling was great. The first time through the course I took it moderately, but the second time I left the AT in "2", and skipped through the first "emergency chicane" (a cardboard image of a tire rolling out from behind a barrier) at speed. Very flat and composed behavior. I also took the chance to stand on the brakes hard in this run, and thought they behaved very well, after hours of being driven hard. I really like this car.
(Nugget for the 350 fans: I saw one woman get out laughing her head off and smiling hugely over how fast and fun the IS350 was to drive. Nice to see the enjoyment.)
The news (at least to me, I haven't seen this): One of the product "answer folks" went off to track down the answer to this question for me: "How is the power split front/rear in the AWD system, and to what limits?" The answer - normally it is 30% front / 70% rear. It can go up to a 50/50 split. Similar perhaps (testing my memory here) to what BMW does. (I also got a "this is preliminary" disclaimer, but I can live with that.)
I'll definitely go see it in the showrooms, when I can take a longer drive and sit in it a bit more. Price will play a part. Tim
Pretty clever of Lexus to pit a structurally weakened 330i v. an IS350.
And, most 3-series don't have fold-down rear seats.. They are part of the $1000 Cold Weather Package... or, you can get them as a stand-alone option for $475... But, most stock cars just have heated seats, and don't have the CWS... or the fold-down seats...
Most BMW owners that track their cars or do autocross, won't buy one with the fold-down seat option... nor, will they buy a coupe, as that structure is inherently weaker than the sedan..
regards,
kyfdx
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Geez
Besides, It's still not "officially official" yet so it could change. But I don't think I'm breaking anyone's confidence when I say that most people will find the price very competitive.
You wrote: In comparing the two, I think the Lexus is the more comfortable (in the front), luxurious, better looking (both interior and exterior) and better performing. However, the BMW has more hospitable rear seats (fold down, too) and is better handling and (consequently) more fun to drive.
One can take that to mean a) the car you drove had fold down rear seats, b) you believe fold down rear seats are standard on the e90, c) possibly that you mean the e90 has optional fold down rear seats. Honestly, C is the most unlikely given that sentence as there's no indication you know fold downs are an extra cost item.
It's not hard to believe Lexus would put an e90 out there sporting the fold down rear seats. Considering the following video taken at a Lexus event a week ago, it's easy to imagine Toyota will misrepresent the competition: http://s91874328.onlinehome.us/lexus.avi
I won't address the rest of your ah hominem attacks.
Which then leads to this question: why is Lexus making such a small quantity of the IS350 ????? It must be to protect the GS twins, imo, until the GS350/460/450h replacements arrive by MY2007/08. I suspect the coupe/hardtop IS350 or the V8 variant of the IS may be here about the same time as well.
When Lexus talks about modeling its new releases after the Bimmer, most BMW officianados limit this to the legendary BMW feel.... to which I must disagree.... it is not just about the steering feel, or handling, or speed, or braking, it includes the staggered releases with always something new to retain interest in the brand....
IS350 Oct 2005
GS450h Mar 2006
GS350 Oct 2006
LS460 Oct 2006
GS460 Mar 2007
LS600h Oct 2007
IS500 Oct 2007
Get the picture ?
1) Exterior - All three look nice, i think this is completely based on personal preference so I wont even go there. G35 and 330 looks are more distincitve than 350 which wins some points. I actually prefer the exterior styling of the 330
2) Interior - I am a software engineer so i love the utilitarian approach of the 330. With that, I thought the 350 did a nice job of putting eveything together. Really pleased witht the steering shifters - felt more like metal than plastic. You sit really low in the 350 much lower than I expected. lower than the 330 but not as low as the g35
3) Drive - holy crap. the 350 is fast as anything. the 330 is slower. I couldnt tell you if the 350 was doing 5.1 or 5.6 or 6.0 but it was fast. The g35 feels faster but I think it might be due to wheelspin and a psychological effect. The 330 didnt stick to the road as well as the 350 or the g35. I could tell the difference between the lex and my a4. its felt great. I liked the feeling better than the 330. The g35 is completely differnent though...much more rough feeeling
4) Manual vs. Stick - i drive alot and I love my manual a4. But you know what, my back could do without a stick now. I think i need an automatic. And I have no problems with lex not having stick. Its more than just dropping a manual tranny. Its warranty issues, parts issues, cost issues, future model year issues, etc. Its probably not with the extra 1 or 2k sales per month...
5) Leg room - front awesome. Back totally sucks. Looks like its less than my a4.
6) I have pictures of the lighted door sill if anyone is interested.
I spend the better part of the day working through my feelings about the 330 vs. the g35 vs. the 350. I put tons of miles on my cars and I keep them for very long time so I dont care about risidual value. I need something super reliable and cheap(er) to fix when something goes wrong. So the 330 is out. I drive about 1 hr each way to work so I need an automatic and I need to have some fun and a good interior. So the g35 is out. Sure, the 350 is more expensive, but initially this might be it for me. I think I need more time w/ her though Ill wait on a final decision until i can drive one for more than 22 seconds.
The AT 350 (5.1 secs 0-60mph) is faster than the MT 330i (6.1 secs 0-60mph? Someone correct me if I am wrong).
I would THINK that the 306 ponies are a taaaad faster off the line. You don't know for sure anyways until you test drive yourself though.
Even though the numbers used in the C&D were figured by using their "proprietary" method, all models in the comparo were subject to this manipulation. Either way, the IS 350 did jump off the line like a bat outta hell! That, you cannot deny!
For those here who have sat in or seen the backseat of the 03'-present Toyota Corolla, how does the rear seat of the IS compare to it? I'm am thinking IS or 06' Avalon :surprise:
That's what most of us have an issue with...and the reason the video clip has very audible booing. It was obvious the driver of the 330 didn't hit off the line.
Gotta admit Zaidi's point about longterm is big, big, big plus for the IS350 over the 330i. The idea of getting a slick, fun, super reliable sport sedan is unbelievably enticing. You guys have no idea how much time I've had my current car in for service. Over 4 weeks total, I'd say if you include the entire weekends they had my car.
The tranny of the IS350 that scares the hell out of me longterm though. Automatics are extremely frail and very unreliable. And they're crazy expensive to repair. Every person I know with over 100k on an automatic has had to have the tranny serviced. Yeah, yeah plenty of anecdotes can follow but I hear the words $6000 repair bill and I know short of blowing up an engine it's tough for a manual to ever be that expensive to fix.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
(P.S. I love manuals so dont start bashing me)
"It [the Lexus IS350] looks better, is much better attired, faster, better brakes, better performance, a tad less in handling and steering feedback.... and maybe better priced."
Comparing it to the BMW is interesting. The BMW was probably a tad more well-behaved and well-controlled but not by much. The "interesting" thing is -- and I amit that I'm about to play on the brand cliches for a bit -- that I probably preferred the BMW when I was driving but preferred the Lexus when my wife was driving. (She drives hard, too.) It probably a "feedback vs. composure" thing: with the BMW having slightly more of the former while the Lexus has slightly more of the latter.
By the way, if you haven't test driven the Lexus yet, you'll probably need at least two trips with it. The first time on the cross I so underestimated the brakes that I hit them too soon in the first corner. The next time on the course I realized how well the brakes were and was able to get the most out of them. And the car.
Again, in sum, the Lexus IS350 is not a bad handling car by any stretch. However, the BMW 330 does handle (and feel) better. On the other hand, while the BMW 330 is a good performance car, the Lexus is definitely better performing (and luxurious).
As one of the editors of one of the articles in one of the major car magazines told me a few weeks ago -- indeed, this person was one of the test drivers and author of one of the articles that certain people who have never driven the car think they are quoting with authority -- it really depends on where you want to make your trade-off. This individual personally prefers the BMW but he said he would have no problem recommending the Lexus over it to some "performance drivers."
If I'm wrong about the IS350, you'll know because I'll buy it.
Take your golf clubs so you can have your swing analyzed...
This was a great event! Having experienced the adolescent crazyness from both previous Mazda Rev-It-Up events, this one was much more relaxed and stress free. The constant flow of free food and drinks in a sofa-filled tent really made the hour-long waits easier to justify. They also had free massage sessions and had a pro golfer on hand to give free golf swing analysis. The porta-poties were the best I've ever seen: wood patterned laminate flooring, automatic faucets, real flushing fixtures, and a background music system.
First car I drove was the 530i. The car felt slow, soft, and generally not very exciting. It would make a great grand touring car and certainly better than the E500 in the driving dynamics department, but I wonder how much better it is than say a nice Acura TL. I kept wanting to lay back and drive it with one hand instead of both even while I was pushing it hard. It was a wierd sensation.
Then I drove the IS250. The car accelerated much better than I would have expected for 200HP and an automatic transmission. Handling was predictable and the car had great brakes. I feels much better than the 530i in terms of being light on its feet. I enjoyed it and feel that for many people, this will be all that they need for a sporty entry level luxury sedan. It certainly is better than the Acura TSX.
Next I drove the 330i. OH MY GAWD. No wonder this is the benchmark of the segment. Coming from the IS250, the strong acceleration of the 330i is a kick in the pants. Slowing down prior to the first corner, the brakes were very strong and easy to modulate. As I get around the corner and shift to the accelerator the power engagement was immediate. I was shocked. No matter how good an automatic transmission is, I had always been accustomed to a short delay between application of throttle and delivery of power. I am not talking about a downshift, but a delay even if the transmission was smart enough to stay in the same gear. But the 330i behaved like it had a manual transmission with clutch plates connected to a cable-throttle engine. The power was immediate, responsive and could be finely modulated to guide the car through the turn. But what really made this car stand out was the suspension and handling - it gave me a sense of revelation that borders on a religeous experience. "This is what they were talking about" I thought to myself. The old cliches such as "corners like its on rails", "razor sharp handling", "goes where you point it", "telepathic connection between driver and car" - they all apply. The car was not only fast, but was easy to drive fast. When it occured to me by the second corner that touching the brakes or gas to go through mid-corner made little difference, I stuck to the gas for the remainder of the track. This is a driver's car and absolutely the best one I've had the chance to drive up until now.
With the grin fom driving the 330i still on my face, I got into a IS350. The acceleration from this beast is unnerving. It's a gush of torque that pushes me hard against the seat. The power advantage that this car has over the 330i is substantial. Around the corners, the IS350 felt better than the IS250. I had read somewhere that the IS250 was preferred over the IS350 in terms of handling, but I just felt that the IS350 was more sure-footed, had less body motion and didn't feel as strained or on-edge as the IS250. It felt faster without feeling out of control.
When I got out of the IS350 I was grinning, but it was still the same grin from the 330i. The IS350 is no doubt faster in a straight line - the crushing power and buttery-smooth delivery from that wonderful engine is something that will stay with me for a long time. It's like taking a large bite from a really really good cheese cake - rich, creamy, and satisfying. If I wanted a very nice car with the best acceleration, the IS350 would be my choice. But I want a very nice car with the best performance, and the 330i with its wonderfully responsive powertrain and communicative and neutral suspension came out the clear winner in my mind.
It may just be that Lexus didn't want to top the 330i in terms of raw performance. The Lexus IS cars' softness can also be interpreted as being more comfortable and thus easier to live with on a day-to-day basis. Every car has trade-offs and a performance-oriented luxury car must decide how much performance must be sacrificed in order to deliver an adequate level of luxury in the ride. I won't go so far as to say that the IS cars are inferior to the 330i, but they certainly have a different tune. So make up your mind what your priorities are and the decision should be easy after that.
October 2nd msrp official release (pricing)
October 3rd japan release date
October 5th-14th usa dealer delivery dates (Big volume dealers get first pick at colors and options example NY, LA, ATL, DFW. Small volume dealers will buy inventory from big volume dealers until 1st quarter 2006.
October 15th usa release date (in showroom date)
However - my driveway is long, and very steep - I don't think RWD and traction control will do it in bad weather. I can always get down of course, although stopping can be an issue :-( Plus, I essentially live on the side of a mountain - an eastern-US old (and thus low) mountain, but a mountain nonetheless. It's rural - snow clearance can take some time. The drive is bad enough that we considered moving it, but the terrain doesn't really support it. (Why, you ask, would I live here? Great view.) I think in 2001 we had 14-15 storms that dropped 4 inches or more.
I must say, the AWD seemed (on the short drive) quick enough, and handled beautifully. I may give up mileage (although some suggest the MT will get about the same due to gearing), but versus the alternatives I looked at I worry about reliability (audi, volvo, mercedes and dare I say bmw without starting a war), fun (I have an RX300 - no fun at all), and to a degree mileage (I drove and liked a G35x, but there's bad gas mileage). I have a Subaru, but it isn't as nice. They are (to me) underpowered at 165hp, or overpowered at 250 (plus whatever the torque figures are) and I'm back in bad gas mileage.
BTW, I do the snow tires and wheels things on top of the AWD. November to late April :-)
Thanks for the ideas. Tim
I did the following calculations, for a quick comparison. Hopefully it comes true!
BMW 550i (Cold,Prem Sound,Sport,Steptronic,Comfort Access,ActiveCruise,Nav) 67945
GS430 (Fully Loaded, basically all options of the 550i) 59064
Price Difference: 15%
BMW X5 3.0 (Premium,Cold,Sport,Auto,Xenon,Nav,Prem Sound) 54920
RX330 (Fully Loaded, basically all the options of the X5) 45708
Price Difference 20%
BMW 750i(Premium,Cold,Convenience,Adaptaptive Ride) 78295
LS430 (Fully loaded, much more than the 750, though unsure if you would cross-shop the 2, seems like a better S-Class competitor than 7 series for some reason) 66579
Price Difference 18%
Average Price Difference: 17.6%
Fully Loaded 330i : 48070
@ 17.6% discount. 39609?? Even at a 15% discount = 41000?
Lexus seems ambitious with it's 40,000 sales goal (Or more) which will hopefully equate to an aggressive pricing schedule.
If the price of the IS350 is, as someone said, 46000, I'm getting the 330i, which are leaving the lots with discounts. IS350 will not sell below MSRP for a couple of months.
We'll see on October 3rd.
Good luck to all.
Sunroof, Premium Package, Tech Package, Cold Weather, Audio/Bose, Nav, Tire Pressure, Parktronic = 44535
G35 w/ XM,Premium,Aero,Nav, Sport Suspension = 38710.
I really really hope the IS350 isn't in the mid-upper 40's,
The M45 can be had for near 50.
G'nite all.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I you liked the power of the 330i & IS350, do yourself a favor and drive the M3 as well as the Audi S4. If you live in DC and you want a performance car with all wheel drive, the Audi S4 is the answer.