Got my Sedona with Homelink. Couldn't find an EX with all the options I wanted that didn't have Homelink. Not much use on my carport. What is the function of the rear spoiler? (Really, now.)
You are right of course - I was reading Hoyahenry's post right after yours and attributing it to you. Glad to hear that you found our prices right on. Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
More or less purely aesthetics, I like the look, and for once I can say I have a "totally" loaded model! The mechanical benefits? Probably none. I paid about $150 over the $170 for the spoiler extra to have it painted and matched, it was the only option it did not have. To my delight they did an absolutely perfect job.
Host Steve: can we get a hard copy of Edmunds.com's invoice pricing (something on Kia letterhead)? I assume Edmunds.com has invoice pricing direct from Kia? If not, how does Edmunds.com determine the invoice price?
The dealer I purchased my Sedona EX with all options showed us a dealer invoice of $22,413. Edmunds.com shows a dealer invoice of $21,400.
The salesperson insisted that his invoice was the "real" invoice and that Edmunds.com's invoice is wrong. He went on to state that Edmunds.com is not a reliable source for most invoice pricing.
If Edmunds.com's invoice pricing is accurate, any dealers producing a false invoice should be held accountable.
Realize the dealer invoice is nothing more tnan a marketing ploy. My Dealer had a 2-3% holdback, "marketing fees" built in which they claim they never see....BS. If you add $22,413 plus destination charge of $ 595 you get $23008. I think you did well. I don't believe these folks that are posting getting a totally loaded EX for under $22,500. I paid just under $23K for mine with about $150 of that in extra charges for my spoiler to be painted and mounted.
Invoice The invoice price that a manufacturer charges its franchised dealers (this normally contains a holdback amount that is refunded to the dealer at a later time).
MSRP Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is a recommended retail price as suggested by the manufacturer and posted on the vehicle's window sticker. However, the dealer is free to sell the vehicle for any price they choose.
"The Edmunds Data Services division of Edmunds.com is a primary, first-tier supplier of automotive data. Edmunds Data Services sources, organizes, compiles and delivers all of the vehicle information you see on our Web site. And that data is so good that we license it (together with our editorial content) to many other companies. Because we source and compile the data ourselves, we can assure you that it is as accurate, timely and complete as you will find anywhere."
"All prices and other information displayed on our Web site are gathered from sources and based on algorithms that are believed by Edmunds.com, Inc. to be reliable, but no assurance can be given that this information is accurate, complete or current. Edmunds.com, Inc. does not assume any responsibility for errors or omissions or warrant the accuracy of this information. Before purchasing goods or services you read about on Edmunds.com, you should confirm with the vendor any information (including the price) that is important to your decision."
Can we get you something on Kia letterhead? Probably not....
Where does the Kia pricing come from? From our Kia contacts (see the data blurb above)....
Why was your dealer invoice different? Beats me - maybe he had rolled some ad fees in there or the destination charge ($595) on his document. Dealers have been known to create dummy invoices for unsuspecting consumers (Excelent3's marketing ploy), but if they are claiming it's their real invoice from the manufacturer, a complaint to your local attorney general consumer affairs department may be in order.
fwiw, a well known competitor of ours currently has the same invoice and MSRP numbers for your Sedona EX.
whew, apologies for the dissertation! Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Invoice, MSRP, TMV; it's all a shell game or semantics. What'll the dealer let it go for? That's the bottom line. More demand, higher price; less demand, lower price. Shop around and get the best price you can at the dealer with the best reputation for customer satisfaction AFTER the sale. A few hundred bucks off isn't going to make up for years of service misery.
I'm looking into the sedona. Any input on which dealers to avoid and which to do business with since there are many kia dealers in chicago land area. thanks in advance.
I am interested in the EX with a few options. The invoice total is $19,975 with a MSRP of $22,185.(edmunds). The dealers MSRP is $22,380. The salesperson indicates that they will take $200. off the MSRP (haha). I understand they need to make a profit, I would like to make a offer of $600.00 over the invoice price which would be $20,575. Should I start here? I really hate this haggling.
You bet, start there, whatdya got to lose? Say it with confindence while you are at it, and tell them you are not here to play games, you are a serious buyer. If they can't do it at your price, politely very excuse yourself, but I doubt you'll be leaving just yet. It's your money, they need to earn it. Make them work for it. While you are at it forget the salesman, go right to the sales manager and forget the "sales man shuttle" game. When I get to this point that's when dealing begins. It's certainly more effective to use this strategy when the car you want to purchase is on the lot, or within their dealer network. Check out post #489 to learn more.
I concur with Steve, Marcolius and Ex3. Honda dealer chose not to earn my business (EXTREMELY lucky for me).
That said, I still find it considerably odd that, based on earlier posts on this board, and my own experience, that the dealer-provided invoice "trick" is so consistent in its conspiratorial parameters nationwide - $1000 greater than the "real invoice" on Edmunds. I'm being lazy and not digging up the post early on where the customer posting here had an argument with the dealer on exactly this point. In retrospect I regret not reviewing the invoice more closely to identify the source of the discrepancy. I'm hoping someone will/had, which was the reason for starting this thread. My hypothesis right now is that the discrepancy on the invoice is in manufacturer ad charges.
Also note that one of my earlier posts referred to holdback - I note now that Edmunds shows the Sedona holdback as 0.0.
So, let's sum up for those inquiring: $200 under MSRP is a great starting point for the dealer, but not the best deal based on other experiences. I offer that the apparent consensus/rule-of-thumb good deal price is approximately $1000-1500 under MSRP at present. And, while this is supposedly the wrong approach to generating a price (ie top down as opposed to the bottom up Edmund's method), to some extent the result is regarded as a generous price for so much van. Contrary opinions from successful purchasers welcome.
You are right on in my opinion on all issues mentioned above. I would like to reflect on one small but important point. $1000-1500 under MSRP is legitimate but under a miriad of potential circumstances. Supply,demand, inventory, etc. Example: If the dealer only had one loaded EX, he certain will try to get sticker for it (depending on his market conditions), and many times people will pay it. It's very fluid. Dealers that want to do the numbers game need inventory on hand for quick sales. HOWEVER I have yet to see more than 6 on any lot (both EX'S & LX's) I was both lucky and fortunate to find my vehicle without to much trouble.
Thanks for the information on the cargo net and deflector, respectively. I will check out Walmart tomorrow. Although I am not mechanically inclined, I will try the self install on the deflector.
Bottom line--pay what you want and are happy with. If you feel like the dealer is greasing you, leave. There are other dealers and the vans will be around for a long time. Remember--YOU are in control of your own wallet.
I'm new to this town hall thing and would like to thank everyone who has posted messages about the sedona. I'm looking at an EX model and have a question for the group that I've gotten some conflicting reports from different dealers I've contacted in the wash DC area. The question: I want to get ABS on my sedona, but my wife isn't crazy about having a leather interior. I've been told that you can't get ABS w/out leather. Anyone else hear this, or even better, does anyone have a sedona w/ ABS and not leather? Thanks
I'm a very excited first-time mimi-van shopper. I am going to look at the Sedona this weekend. Two quick questions...1.) Are you happy with your purchase? 2.) What are your biggest concerns about owning a Sedona?
If you look in the Sedona Brochure you will see in the back under features that ABS is listed as an option on the LX, which does NOT have leather. It really comes down to availability and how they "package them" at time of manufacture. I was talking to my dealer yesterday and he told me if I ordered a Sedona just the way I wanted it it would take 12 weeks to get.
Jster381- I recommend reading all the posts on this board, that should make you very happy> also read the reviews on E-opinions.com I believe currently there are 14 reviews with an incredible 93% approval rating.
Just found out if you have your foglights on, and you use swithch to high beam lights the fog lights automatically go off, and on again when you go back to low beams........ )
Yes, all factory fog lights do that regardless of make, the idea is that you don't need the fogs when using the high beam, since you shouldn't be using high beams in foggy conditions.
For the hell of it, I posted the highest rating Sedona crash test results on the MPV site. They are a little defensive (can you say - denial) about Sedonas, seems like Sedonas are mentioned about every 3rd post. I'm not quite sure what is going on there. I actually do like MPV's which are very different than Sedonas but I am open-minded enough to see that the Sedona is a winner and the best minvan value bar none. I also know which van I would want to be in if a Sedona and MPV crashed!
Thanks to our host, Steve, and to all that shared their comments and experiences with dealer invoice pricing.
It sounds like I got a pretty good deal on our Sedona EX. I don't like to play games and nobody likes to be lied to.
I did remember seeing a $500 advertising fee on the dealer's invoice. But that still leaves another $500 unaccounted for. Perhaps this is the destination fee and my dealer was being honest with me.
After shopping around on the internet and on the phone, I test drove a Sedona EX, green, two tone, leather, ABS, spoiler. Drove really nice, didn't really feel like a van (I have a 95 Windstar). Dealer gave me a price of 22,150 which included freight, but not tax, title and FEES. I planning on going back on Sat. w/ my wife to give it another spin. Any idea what I might be looking at in terms of dealer FEES? I didn't ask tonight because I wasn't in the negotiating stage, but I am curious what others have paid in FEES so I have something to judge by. I'm in Northern VA, Wash DC area. I also wasn't crazy about the veiw out of the rear that others have mentioned, but I also know that a lot of the time the rear seats will be folded, so that may not be much of an issue. I also did not back it up tonight, so i'm not really sure if I'll back into anything!
Hi. First-time poster to this forum, although I've been around Edmunds for a while. Just caught up on all 676 posts in the past 2 days.
It doesn't sound like dealers are willing/eager to meet customers' option/color preferences by trading Sedonas with other dealers. This is understandable; since the vehicle is so hot, there's really no need for the dealer to do this.
What I'm wondering is, how exactly have dealers helped some of you folks find the Sedona you're looking for? Have they scouted incoming units from the plant, have they ordered one for you and told you it will take x weeks to arrive, etc.? Has anyone found a dealer that will do anything other than simply sell a vehicle that it has in stock?
I want to make sure I understand: the "rear heat" module provides only heat, and is not integrated with the air conditioning system at all? This seems less functional than the rear HVAC on other minivans. Don't most of the competitors' rear HVAC units provide heated or air-conditioned air, depending on what settings are chosen (either up front or in back)?
For those of you who have posted the price you paid, can you specify whether a trade-in was involved? I feel that I have a decent idea of the market price for the Sedonas right now, based on the examples provided in this forum. It seems that anywhere from MSRP to $1,000 below MSRP is a fair deal for both dealer and customer.
However, when a trade-in is involved with a new vehicle purchase, the legitimacy of the "price paid" for the new vehicle is diminished. The dealer can work the numbers so that you get a great deal on the new vehicle but he gets a great deal on your trade-in, or vice versa.
We are seriously considering the Sedona EX, but a trade-in will not be part of the transaction.
I'm in southeast Michigan and am anxious to find out whether the Kias are being discounted more than in other areas because this is "Big 3" country or whether the opposite is true (or neither).
I remember one person commenting about the great treatment from the Kia-only dealer near LaCrosse, Wisconsin. Anybody else? I see there's a Kia-only dealer in Grand Rapids (west Michigan) and it claims to be the #1 volume dealer in the USA 2 years running (presumably supported by actual data). I'm originally from that area and our family plans to move back there at some point, so I may give them a shot. The website (www.kiatowne.com) also claims that the dealership's prices are so low because they have no sales managers and no salespeople. Perhaps a Saturn-like approach?
can anyone please provide some clarity on what kinds of items are showing up on dealers' invoices for the Sedona? I've read about advertising fees (often, legitimate, though it's hard to tell on a case-by-case basis whether it's a manufacturer- or dealer-imposed charge) and other amounts that don't show up on Edmund's invoice figures.
I'm not too concerned about additional items on the invoice; I'm more concerned with whether additional amounts are being tacked on to the MSRP. With the Sedona, the invoice really has very little relevance in the negotiation: because demand is high, dealers are able to frame the negotiations around the notion of MSRP, not invoice. Typically, I would negotiate for a new vehicle with a target price in relation to invoice, not MSRP. But with the Sedona, this isn't very practical due to the high demand.
Soapbox: if demand means the dealer can get MSRP, or even above MSRP, for a vehicle, do NOT fault the dealer or claim it is ripping off its customers. This is supply and demand, and if people are willing to pay it then the dealer has every right to collect it. The dealer is not, nor should it be, obligated to sell at a price below MSRP simply because 'that's how it usually works' or for any other goofy reason.
It frustrates me to see people get hung up on MSRP and say things like "He wouldn't budge from MSRP so I walked" or "The dealer is charging $500 over MSRP because of some b.s. markup fee." The key word in MSRP is "suggested." In most cases the market price will be well below MSRP, but in many cases it will not.
If the Sedona EX stickered for $27,500 ("MSRP") loaded instead of about $24,000 as it does currently, and people were buying them for $24,000, they would be thrilled and thinking they got a great deal. Instead, some people are balking at paying $24,000 because it is the full MSRP. Many folks on this forum have correctly identified that the van is a great value at $24k (I happen to agree), even though that number happens to be the full MSRP of a loaded EX model.
Doc fee was $199. I understand this may vary slightly by dealership, but that should be it. It was the same at the Honda and Pontiac dealerships, and will likely be pre-printed on the forms to be signed. If any other fees show up, I recommend a drive to Leesburg, Dulles MotorCars; talk with Tom M.
Not to be too difficult, but you basically invalidated/answered your first question in your second paragraph. That said, it is one of the implicit objectives of this forum (imho) to establish the supply and demand (and value) realities. Most of the prospective owners to this web site and this forum are looking to establish that.
As such, you make valid points with regard to supply and demand, and we agree that at the end of the deal, it's your money and their car. How that becomes their money and your car is up to each individual to decide.... In this case, I can tell you that the TMV, for one,(arguably based upon s&d) is arguably (I do not say completely) inaccurate in favor of the seller - call the resulting posts here consumer solidarity if you want. Of course, as an owner, I should be happy with the TMV, right? But frankly, it's quite irrelevant to me since I'll need this van for no less than the next 15 years, and I have 5 more years (based on the warranty) before I need to recalculate value components (residuals and utility values versus ongoing maintenance costs).
The MSRP is printed at the factory. Unless there is an option you need/desire, like a spoiler that was not installed at the factory, I am not aware of any adds that are being applied to the MSRP/sticker price. Undercoating is well-applied at the factory - so you can skip that discussion.
Finally, you are correct, the van is hot. I saw on Carpoint today that Sedona hit the #8 spot for van sales processed. Of note, Mazda did not make the top 10, and one can deduce that the limited availability and consumer awareness will keep it from dislodging one of the top 5 for some time, but 8 is respectable, even if there are only about 15 choices in this category....
All of that said in what is now the post before this one, the negotiation process, for me, still occurred from the perspective of dealer invoice, fuzzy though that may have been. I disagree with your assertion that that will not/should not, based upon market factors, always be the case. I do agree however that the there are those who will pay the dealer more profit to get a vehicle, and that this price can exceed the MSRP - see paragraph 2 above - and that there is nothing wrong with that. In this case, fortunately for those considering a near-term acquisition, it appears based upon the information available on this site that this is not yet the situation.
The MPV site generally speaking is obsessed with keeping it a closed forum, pertaining to their beloved MPV. I took one of their tin cans for a test drive and made a few posts a while back commenting on how impressed I was with the Sedona, and basically got crucified in a hurry. Some simply can't see the trees through the forest. I know I am driving a great first year model. I am alive today (another story) because I drive well designed and engineered vehicles.
Good response. I don't really think we are disagreeing about anything. I'll try to clarify a couple of my thoughts, which were not terribly well-stated last time...
Focus on invoice if you want, but it makes more sense to focus on MSRP for this vehicle With a vehicle such as the Sedona that is selling comparatively close to MSRP, you can still frame the negotiations around dealer invoice. Let's say invoice is $18,500 and MSRP is $22,000. All I'm saying is this: Since you'll probably end up closer to MSRP than invoice (and you'll end up WAY closer to MSRP than most new-vehicle transactions for other models), there's really no reason or point in focusing on dealer invoice.
Especially when the dealer's true cost is so fuzzy, it's even tougher to focus on dealer invoice. By focusing on MSRP, it's easier to know how good a price you got compared with other buyers, because the MSRP figure for the Sedona is more concrete than the invoice figure. For purposes of the Sedona discussion, it's probably more helpful for folks to say "I got mine for $900 under MSRP" than to say "I got mine for $750 above invoice." If you say the latter, then you need to qualify the statement by explaining what was listed on the dealer's invoice. Ad fees? Doc fees? Etc.
If you don't even really know what the dealer invoice is, then I see no real point in aiming to get a deal at or near the number, or even in framing the negotiation around that number. For various reasons (this being a new model; not enough buying experiences to be shared; confusion about various fees such as advertising fee, documentation fee, etc. that may or may not be manufacturer-imposed; confusion about holdback - Edmund's is saying 0%, which I've never seen before from a manufacturer) it's hard to know what the number is.
Please note that this whole approach of focusing on MSRP it totally different from the way I normally approach a new vehicle purchase. In my view, focusing on MSRP happens to be the more practical, simpler approach with the Sedona given the current market conditions. However, I am still interested in hearing what kinds of items that customers are seeing on dealers' Sedona invoices. Call it simple curiosity, I guess.
MSRP hoyahenry, you said "I am not aware of any adds that are being applied to the MSRP/sticker price." Yes, the "window sticker" or Mulroney sticker or MSRP sticker or whatever you want to call it comes from the factory. I believe it is illegal for the dealer to modify it, and it is illegal to not have it posted on the vehicle's window. However, dealers are allowed to add equipment (often of questionable value - pinstriping, undercoating, detailing, dealer markup, other fees, etc.) and also add an extra "window sticker" with the updated MSRP including these dealer-installed items. My guess is that some of the same items (and maybe others) that are added to the dealer invoice are also being added to the dealer's "custom" MSRP. These are the items I'm curious about.
Edmund's True Market Value (TMV) I agree that Edmund's TMV seems a bit high on this vehicle. It's probably not way off, but it does represent the higher end of what I'd consider the continuum of current "fair market price" for the Sedona. I applaud Edmund's for its attempt to create a meaningful and helpful concept such as TMV, but from what I've seen on a few different vehicles, the TMV is usually a bit higher than what a savvy customer could acquire the vehicle for.
It is reported by this illustrious site that there is no dealer holdback. I have seen two invoices from two different dealers. Both list a holdback of 3% of base invoice ($562.) True, the dealer could be making it up, but I doubt it because both were the same number. Both also included a marketing allowance of $400. One is in Austin (metro,) the other Killeen (rural.) The dealers are not in the same network.
Excellent reply. The good news is that there are two possible fuzzy numbers. Yes, it would be nice to get to the bottom of that discrepancy - shouldn't be too hard.
The only thing to add is an hypothesis that the vans aren't on the lot long enough to see the detailer....;) Of the eight vans on the lot when I procured mine, they were all virgin from the factory. ymmv by dealer obviously.
BTW, I saw about 12 Sedonas when I went back to the dealer to get my plates 2 weeks ago- so it is possible that supply is increasing.
My document fee was $179. There was a sign up on the wall in the showroom, alerting the buyer, and it was non-negotiable. (Is anything TRULY non-negotiable, though, really?) It was also pre-printed on the documents. No ad fee or others, except for registration.
I paid $200 under the MSRP, which was identical at the dealer to what I found on Edmunds, down to the dollar. They told me up front that these were popular cars and that was the best they would be willing to do. My dealer had one LX on his lot when I was shopping, and let me drive it. He looked up what was coming in over the next few weeks, and found an EX with the works. I thought about it for a few days, then shopped a bit more, then told him I'd take it. This was also in Northern Virginia, and I shopped our region, CarsDirect.com, and a couple other web sites. No one else had significantly better price or availability at that time (early December), and I wasn't inclined to drive 200 miles to save 200 bucks. My dealer's about 3 miles from my house, has a decent service reputation, and a shuttle van that will take me to work when I drop off the car for service.
When I told him I wanted the incoming EX, he held it for me for a $100 check, which he later returned to me uncashed. It arrived about 10 days later than they initially told me, but I was in no big hurry. Though he made it clear to me when it arrived that many other people were interested, and he could sell it in an afternoon, he held it for me without complaint for an extra three days until my wife could get over there and approve the color. I think I paid more than most folks in this forum, but it was a conscious trade-off. They're close by; I felt comfortable with the dealer and the service department, and since the warranty is, to me, a significant factor in the appeal of the car, that relationship was important. I also wanted to buy at that time, because I intended to donate my old van to charity before 1 Jan. So, I traded price a bit to choose my dealer and time of purchase.
I'm still doing fine with my car. No problems. Has done well in the one snowstorm we've had. Smooth on the highway. My previous post about pros and cons, (somewhere in the 400's above, I think) still stands. Wish there were memory seats, heated seats, and more under seat storage, but on the whole it's been a big hit.
I think when you cross-post to a thread for a competing brand and basically drop your drawers at the participants, the reaction you get is well deserved, imho. I lurk over here, mainly because you folks have some pretty good banter going and a great attitude. Besides, I like to see how people like the other brands' vehicles. That said, you don't see anyone jumping into the Ody, DC, Sienna or Sedona forums with posts such as the ones you posted. Why don't you see it? Because it is bad form.
LOL to your humor!! Are you trying to destroy our "good banter" and "great attitude" by coming to this board and making insinuations?? Leave it alone, and don't waste our time patronizing this board. " It's "bad form".
"Drop your drawers" Conspiracy by excelent3 Feb 08, 2002 (12:13 pm) LOL to your humor!! Are you trying to destroy our "good banter" and "great attitude" by coming to this board and making insinuations?? Leave it alone, and don't waste our time patronizing this board. " It's "bad form".
From what I believe was the first from the Kia board to come on over the MPV board and basically say, "My van is better than your van"
To be fair, Fred started out very politely, but the conversation got a bit out of hand when the durability and handling of the Kia was called into question. It takes two to argue, so the MPV participants are not without any blame here. You can't go over to another models thread and expect everyone to say, oh yeah we should have considered the brand XYZ van without expecting a little grief. Kinda like wearing a Patriots jersey in St. Louis right now 8^)
However, as I've said before, it more important how you drive, than what you drive.
Has anyone bought a Sedona in the NE Ohio area? Willing to reveal what you paid? I liked the car, and the price is certainly right, I'm a little nervous about its reliability though.
I took a test drive of an EX a couple of days ago and I found that the gas pedal was quite light to push on (i.e. I had to "hold" my foot up and couldn't "rest" it on the pedal, if you know what I mean).
Also, I found that the pedal was too close to the driver. I kind of had to hold my leg up, too, while driving. If I put the seat back any farther, then the steering wheel was too far away from me.
Has anyone found this to be a annoyance for them, or do you think I would get used to it?
Also, has no one really been bothered by the very short height in the 3rd seat? I'm only 5'10" and I would need another 2 to 3" to sit upright and still have my head just touch the ceiling.
Doesn't anyone use this van for hauling around adults in the back seat?
Any thoughts?
... Greg
P.S. I just spent the last couple of hours reading all the threads from the first one, and I have to say thank you to all who have posted. This van is definitely on my short-short list!
I read somewhere that the Sedona has been available in Australia for a couple of years. Does anyone know of an Australian site where we could get information on how the Sedona has performed there? Like repair or warranty issues?
Has anyone used the Autobytel internet service? I have a walk-away price quote of $23,750.57 (to the penny!) for an EX, Misty Blue, with ABS, Homelink, and leather. Does this sound like it's a reasonable price for the Richmond/Washington area? Thanks, all. I really enjoy reading the commentary on this site and find it helpful.
My father lives in NE Ohio. The Kia dealer near him won't sell Sedonas below MSRP. My father told the dealer in NE Ohio that he could get $1,200+ off MSRP for a fully loaded Sedona EX in Columbus - Central Ohio (same deal I got without a trade-in in the Columbus area). The NE Ohio dealer basically told him that he can sell Sedonas at MSRP and that he couldn't match pricing in Columbus.
If you want good pricing, come to Columbus. There are lots of Kia dealers. Some have had great incentives like 0% financing (Ricart).
For the third seat, there is a seat positioning tweak for the higher in stature if they need to be back there. I noted this issue during the acquisition phase as well. There is a cusp in the liner as it joins the door. What needs to happen is to adjust the middle row seats forward 2 inches and bring the rear seat forward as well. This will put the person's head inside the cusp and add another inch of head room or so. Then, leaning the rear seat back slightly might also help. Admittedly, I haven't tried all of the permutations, but I think that there is enough play to accomodate leg and head room requirements. It seems that the factory sets the seats to the rear-most positions. Not perfect, but at least the independent seat adjust capability is there.
Yes, the pedal feel in this vehicle is different. The accelerator is, in my vehicle anyway, light to the touch. The break pedal is mushy, but firms up nicely with one pump of the brakes - otherwise just push. This is a function of the master cylinder. Every vehicle is different. I have become accustomed to it.
Annam1, if that price includes all taxes, title and doc fees, then it is more or less reasonable, but without more information, it looks a bit high. I got the same car in Leesburg for less than 23 before tax, title and doc fee, and it also had a moonroof. I did not go through a buying service. Also, there is a holiday weekend coming up, so you might be able to even better. And, the closer to the end of the month, the more likely the dealer will want to negotiate a few hundred dollars - especially in February.
The Sedona is the safest minivan in its price class. And it's important to advertise that, because many potential buyers have considered that the low price of the Sedona means that something must be missing. We now know that in addition to the long list of standard features, safety is one of them. This is even more significant, because more expensive vans are not as safe.
Yes, there is no TCS. I have TCS on two other GM vehicles currently- could care less. I have never encountered a situation where I needed it and a properly driven vehicle can easily do without it safely. ABS is not standard, but the safety conscious will (likely) only buy a van that has it. Unfortuantely, marketing will dictate that it remain optional, and it's impossible to put TCS on a vehicle without it.
These two systems are very controversial. Before the arrows start flying, I am saying that I am not aware of any evidence or research that shows that TCS actually makes vehicles safer to drive and ride in. Even as a driver with a nearly perfect record, I have first hand experience that ABS does.
As for mpg, the rating is similar to many other SUVs. I'll likely spend less in extra gasoline than owners of the other safe van will spend to buy a similar warranty, as you said.
Sorry, but I'm in a big housekeeping/control freak mode this week. Plus I'm not sure that a "safest van = Kia" topic wouldn't explode into some huge flame war :-).
No reflection on Caviller you understand - he's always calm and logical.... Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
We're actually going to be in Columbus next week visiting family. I bought my first car at Ricart...almost 20 years ago!!! We're trying to decide btw the Kia, Plymouth Voyager, Sienna and Ody. Haven't driven them all yet.
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
The mechanical benefits? Probably none. I paid about $150 over the $170 for the spoiler extra to have it painted and matched, it was the only option it did not have. To my delight they did an absolutely perfect job.
Host Steve: can we get a hard copy of Edmunds.com's invoice pricing (something on Kia letterhead)? I assume Edmunds.com has invoice pricing direct from Kia? If not, how does Edmunds.com determine the invoice price?
The dealer I purchased my Sedona EX with all options showed us a dealer invoice of $22,413. Edmunds.com shows a dealer invoice of $21,400.
The salesperson insisted that his invoice was the "real" invoice and that Edmunds.com's invoice is wrong. He went on to state that Edmunds.com is not a reliable source for most invoice pricing.
If Edmunds.com's invoice pricing is accurate, any dealers producing a false invoice should be held accountable.
Thanks.
Invoice
The invoice price that a manufacturer charges its franchised dealers (this normally contains a holdback amount that is refunded to the dealer at a later time).
MSRP
Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. This is a recommended retail price as suggested by the manufacturer and posted on the vehicle's window sticker. However, the dealer is free to sell the vehicle for any price they choose.
source
Where we get out numbers:
"The Edmunds Data Services division of Edmunds.com is a primary, first-tier supplier of automotive data. Edmunds Data Services sources, organizes, compiles and delivers all of the vehicle information you see on our Web site. And that data is so good that we license it (together with our editorial content) to many other companies. Because we source and compile the data ourselves, we can assure you that it is as accurate, timely and complete as you will find anywhere."
source
And the weasel language:
"All prices and other information displayed on our Web site are gathered from sources and based on algorithms that are believed by Edmunds.com, Inc. to be reliable, but no assurance can be given that this information is accurate, complete or current. Edmunds.com, Inc. does not assume any responsibility for errors or omissions or warrant the accuracy of this information. Before purchasing goods or services you read about on Edmunds.com, you should confirm with the vendor any information (including the price) that is important to your decision."
source
To answer your questions;
Can we get you something on Kia letterhead? Probably not....
Where does the Kia pricing come from? From our Kia contacts (see the data blurb above)....
Why was your dealer invoice different? Beats me - maybe he had rolled some ad fees in there or the destination charge ($595) on his document. Dealers have been known to create dummy invoices for unsuspecting consumers (Excelent3's marketing ploy), but if they are claiming it's their real invoice from the manufacturer, a complaint to your local attorney general consumer affairs department may be in order.
fwiw, a well known competitor of ours currently has the same invoice and MSRP numbers for your Sedona EX.
whew, apologies for the dissertation!
Steve
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The salesperson indicates that they will take $200. off the MSRP (haha). I understand they need to make a profit, I would like to make a offer of $600.00 over the invoice price which would be $20,575. Should I start here? I really hate this haggling.
excelent3 Jan 15, 2002 10:52am
Marcolius- You are right on. My dealer so far has earned my business, and I will make it work with him (service) even though he is 150 miles away.
That said, I still find it considerably odd that, based on earlier posts on this board, and my own experience, that the dealer-provided invoice "trick" is so consistent in its conspiratorial parameters nationwide - $1000 greater than the "real invoice" on Edmunds. I'm being lazy and not digging up the post early on where the customer posting here had an argument with the dealer on exactly this point. In retrospect I regret not reviewing the invoice more closely to identify the source of the discrepancy. I'm hoping someone will/had, which was the reason for starting this thread. My hypothesis right now is that the discrepancy on the invoice is in manufacturer ad charges.
Also note that one of my earlier posts referred to holdback - I note now that Edmunds shows the Sedona holdback as 0.0.
So, let's sum up for those inquiring: $200 under MSRP is a great starting point for the dealer, but not the best deal based on other experiences. I offer that the apparent consensus/rule-of-thumb good deal price is approximately $1000-1500 under MSRP at present. And, while this is supposedly the wrong approach to generating a price (ie top down as opposed to the bottom up Edmund's method), to some extent the result is regarded as a generous price for so much van. Contrary opinions from successful purchasers welcome.
I want to get ABS on my sedona, but my wife isn't crazy about having a leather interior. I've been told that you can't get ABS w/out leather. Anyone else hear this, or even better, does anyone have a sedona w/ ABS and not leather?
Thanks
I'm a very excited first-time mimi-van shopper. I am going to look at the Sedona this weekend. Two quick questions...1.) Are you happy with your purchase? 2.) What are your biggest concerns about owning a Sedona?
Jster381- I recommend reading all the posts on this board, that should make you very happy> also read the reviews on E-opinions.com I believe currently there are 14 reviews with an incredible 93% approval rating.
It sounds like I got a pretty good deal on our Sedona EX. I don't like to play games and nobody likes to be lied to.
I did remember seeing a $500 advertising fee on the dealer's invoice. But that still leaves another $500 unaccounted for. Perhaps this is the destination fee and my dealer was being honest with me.
Thanks again for everyone's comments!
I also wasn't crazy about the veiw out of the rear that others have mentioned, but I also know that a lot of the time the rear seats will be folded, so that may not be much of an issue. I also did not back it up tonight, so i'm not really sure if I'll back into anything!
It doesn't sound like dealers are willing/eager to meet customers' option/color preferences by trading Sedonas with other dealers. This is understandable; since the vehicle is so hot, there's really no need for the dealer to do this.
What I'm wondering is, how exactly have dealers helped some of you folks find the Sedona you're looking for? Have they scouted incoming units from the plant, have they ordered one for you and told you it will take x weeks to arrive, etc.? Has anyone found a dealer that will do anything other than simply sell a vehicle that it has in stock?
However, when a trade-in is involved with a new vehicle purchase, the legitimacy of the "price paid" for the new vehicle is diminished. The dealer can work the numbers so that you get a great deal on the new vehicle but he gets a great deal on your trade-in, or vice versa.
We are seriously considering the Sedona EX, but a trade-in will not be part of the transaction.
I'm in southeast Michigan and am anxious to find out whether the Kias are being discounted more than in other areas because this is "Big 3" country or whether the opposite is true (or neither).
I remember one person commenting about the great treatment from the Kia-only dealer near LaCrosse, Wisconsin. Anybody else? I see there's a Kia-only dealer in Grand Rapids (west Michigan) and it claims to be the #1 volume dealer in the USA 2 years running (presumably supported by actual data). I'm originally from that area and our family plans to move back there at some point, so I may give them a shot. The website (www.kiatowne.com) also claims that the dealership's prices are so low because they have no sales managers and no salespeople. Perhaps a Saturn-like approach?
I'm not too concerned about additional items on the invoice; I'm more concerned with whether additional amounts are being tacked on to the MSRP. With the Sedona, the invoice really has very little relevance in the negotiation: because demand is high, dealers are able to frame the negotiations around the notion of MSRP, not invoice. Typically, I would negotiate for a new vehicle with a target price in relation to invoice, not MSRP. But with the Sedona, this isn't very practical due to the high demand.
Soapbox: if demand means the dealer can get MSRP, or even above MSRP, for a vehicle, do NOT fault the dealer or claim it is ripping off its customers. This is supply and demand, and if people are willing to pay it then the dealer has every right to collect it. The dealer is not, nor should it be, obligated to sell at a price below MSRP simply because 'that's how it usually works' or for any other goofy reason.
It frustrates me to see people get hung up on MSRP and say things like "He wouldn't budge from MSRP so I walked" or "The dealer is charging $500 over MSRP because of some b.s. markup fee." The key word in MSRP is "suggested." In most cases the market price will be well below MSRP, but in many cases it will not.
If the Sedona EX stickered for $27,500 ("MSRP") loaded instead of about $24,000 as it does currently, and people were buying them for $24,000, they would be thrilled and thinking they got a great deal. Instead, some people are balking at paying $24,000 because it is the full MSRP. Many folks on this forum have correctly identified that the van is a great value at $24k (I happen to agree), even though that number happens to be the full MSRP of a loaded EX model.
As such, you make valid points with regard to supply and demand, and we agree that at the end of the deal, it's your money and their car. How that becomes their money and your car is up to each individual to decide.... In this case, I can tell you that the TMV, for one,(arguably based upon s&d) is arguably (I do not say completely) inaccurate in favor of the seller - call the resulting posts here consumer solidarity if you want. Of course, as an owner, I should be happy with the TMV, right? But frankly, it's quite irrelevant to me since I'll need this van for no less than the next 15 years, and I have 5 more years (based on the warranty) before I need to recalculate value components (residuals and utility values versus ongoing maintenance costs).
The MSRP is printed at the factory. Unless there is an option you need/desire, like a spoiler that was not installed at the factory, I am not aware of any adds that are being applied to the MSRP/sticker price. Undercoating is well-applied at the factory - so you can skip that discussion.
Finally, you are correct, the van is hot. I saw on Carpoint today that Sedona hit the #8 spot for van sales processed. Of note, Mazda did not make the top 10, and one can deduce that the limited availability and consumer awareness will keep it from dislodging one of the top 5 for some time, but 8 is respectable, even if there are only about 15 choices in this category....
Focus on invoice if you want, but it makes more sense to focus on MSRP for this vehicle
With a vehicle such as the Sedona that is selling comparatively close to MSRP, you can still frame the negotiations around dealer invoice. Let's say invoice is $18,500 and MSRP is $22,000. All I'm saying is this: Since you'll probably end up closer to MSRP than invoice (and you'll end up WAY closer to MSRP than most new-vehicle transactions for other models), there's really no reason or point in focusing on dealer invoice.
Especially when the dealer's true cost is so fuzzy, it's even tougher to focus on dealer invoice. By focusing on MSRP, it's easier to know how good a price you got compared with other buyers, because the MSRP figure for the Sedona is more concrete than the invoice figure. For purposes of the Sedona discussion, it's probably more helpful for folks to say "I got mine for $900 under MSRP" than to say "I got mine for $750 above invoice." If you say the latter, then you need to qualify the statement by explaining what was listed on the dealer's invoice. Ad fees? Doc fees? Etc.
If you don't even really know what the dealer invoice is, then I see no real point in aiming to get a deal at or near the number, or even in framing the negotiation around that number. For various reasons (this being a new model; not enough buying experiences to be shared; confusion about various fees such as advertising fee, documentation fee, etc. that may or may not be manufacturer-imposed; confusion about holdback - Edmund's is saying 0%, which I've never seen before from a manufacturer) it's hard to know what the number is.
Please note that this whole approach of focusing on MSRP it totally different from the way I normally approach a new vehicle purchase. In my view, focusing on MSRP happens to be the more practical, simpler approach with the Sedona given the current market conditions. However, I am still interested in hearing what kinds of items that customers are seeing on dealers' Sedona invoices. Call it simple curiosity, I guess.
MSRP
hoyahenry, you said "I am not aware of any adds that are being applied to the MSRP/sticker price." Yes, the "window sticker" or Mulroney sticker or MSRP sticker or whatever you want to call it comes from the factory. I believe it is illegal for the dealer to modify it, and it is illegal to not have it posted on the vehicle's window. However, dealers are allowed to add equipment (often of questionable value - pinstriping, undercoating, detailing, dealer markup, other fees, etc.) and also add an extra "window sticker" with the updated MSRP including these dealer-installed items. My guess is that some of the same items (and maybe others) that are added to the dealer invoice are also being added to the dealer's "custom" MSRP. These are the items I'm curious about.
Edmund's True Market Value (TMV)
I agree that Edmund's TMV seems a bit high on this vehicle. It's probably not way off, but it does represent the higher end of what I'd consider the continuum of current "fair market price" for the Sedona. I applaud Edmund's for its attempt to create a meaningful and helpful concept such as TMV, but from what I've seen on a few different vehicles, the TMV is usually a bit higher than what a savvy customer could acquire the vehicle for.
The only thing to add is an hypothesis that the vans aren't on the lot long enough to see the detailer....;) Of the eight vans on the lot when I procured mine, they were all virgin from the factory. ymmv by dealer obviously.
BTW, I saw about 12 Sedonas when I went back to the dealer to get my plates 2 weeks ago- so it is possible that supply is increasing.
I paid $200 under the MSRP, which was identical at the dealer to what I found on Edmunds, down to the dollar. They told me up front that these were popular cars and that was the best they would be willing to do. My dealer had one LX on his lot when I was shopping, and let me drive it. He looked up what was coming in over the next few weeks, and found an EX with the works. I thought about it for a few days, then shopped a bit more, then told him I'd take it. This was also in Northern Virginia, and I shopped our region, CarsDirect.com, and a couple other web sites. No one else had significantly better price or availability at that time (early December), and I wasn't inclined to drive 200 miles to save 200 bucks. My dealer's about 3 miles from my house, has a decent service reputation, and a shuttle van that will take me to work when I drop off the car for service.
When I told him I wanted the incoming EX, he held it for me for a $100 check, which he later returned to me uncashed. It arrived about 10 days later than they initially told me, but I was in no big hurry. Though he made it clear to me when it arrived that many other people were interested, and he could sell it in an afternoon, he held it for me without complaint for an extra three days until my wife could get over there and approve the color. I think I paid more than most folks in this forum, but it was a conscious trade-off. They're close by; I felt comfortable with the dealer and the service department, and since the warranty is, to me, a significant factor in the appeal of the car, that relationship was important. I also wanted to buy at that time, because I intended to donate my old van to charity before 1 Jan. So, I traded price a bit to choose my dealer and time of purchase.
I'm still doing fine with my car. No problems. Has done well in the one snowstorm we've had. Smooth on the highway. My previous post about pros and cons, (somewhere in the 400's above, I think) still stands. Wish there were memory seats, heated seats, and more under seat storage, but on the whole it's been a big hit.
Best wishes on your shopping.
/javadoc
LOL to your humor!! Are you trying to destroy our "good banter" and "great attitude" by coming to this board and making insinuations?? Leave it alone, and don't waste our time patronizing this board. " It's "bad form".
From what I believe was the first from the Kia board to come on over the MPV board and basically say, "My van is better than your van"
I'll just leave any conclustions and judgments to those who want to read the MPV boards starting here: excelent3 "MY2000+ Mazda MPV" Dec 28, 2001 10:49am
To be fair, Fred started out very politely, but the conversation got a bit out of hand when the durability and handling of the Kia was called into question. It takes two to argue, so the MPV participants are not without any blame here. You can't go over to another models thread and expect everyone to say, oh yeah we should have considered the brand XYZ van without expecting a little grief. Kinda like wearing a Patriots jersey in St. Louis right now 8^)
However, as I've said before, it more important how you drive, than what you drive.
FWIW,
TB
I liked the car, and the price is certainly right, I'm a little nervous about its reliability though.
Thanks!
Also, I found that the pedal was too close to the driver. I kind of had to hold my leg up, too, while driving. If I put the seat back any farther, then the steering wheel was too far away from me.
Has anyone found this to be a annoyance for them, or do you think I would get used to it?
Also, has no one really been bothered by the very short height in the 3rd seat? I'm only 5'10" and I would need another 2 to 3" to sit upright and still have my head just touch the ceiling.
Doesn't anyone use this van for hauling around adults in the back seat?
Any thoughts?
... Greg
P.S. I just spent the last couple of hours reading all the threads from the first one, and I have to say thank you to all who have posted. This van is definitely on my short-short list!
Has anyone used the Autobytel internet service? I have a walk-away price quote of $23,750.57 (to the penny!) for an EX, Misty Blue, with ABS, Homelink, and leather. Does this sound like it's a reasonable price for the Richmond/Washington area? Thanks, all. I really enjoy reading the commentary on this site and find it helpful.
If you want good pricing, come to Columbus. There are lots of Kia dealers. Some have had great incentives like 0% financing (Ricart).
Good luck.
Yes, the pedal feel in this vehicle is different. The accelerator is, in my vehicle anyway, light to the touch. The break pedal is mushy, but firms up nicely with one pump of the brakes - otherwise just push. This is a function of the master cylinder. Every vehicle is different. I have become accustomed to it.
Annam1, if that price includes all taxes, title and doc fees, then it is more or less reasonable, but without more information, it looks a bit high. I got the same car in Leesburg for less than 23 before tax, title and doc fee, and it also had a moonroof. I did not go through a buying service. Also, there is a holiday weekend coming up, so you might be able to even better. And, the closer to the end of the month, the more likely the dealer will want to negotiate a few hundred dollars - especially in February.
re: caviller, subj: true, but
The Sedona is the safest minivan in its price class. And it's important to advertise that, because many potential buyers have considered that the low price of the Sedona means that something must be missing. We now know that in addition to the long list of standard features, safety is one of them. This is even more significant, because more expensive vans are not as safe.
Yes, there is no TCS. I have TCS on two other GM vehicles currently- could care less. I have never encountered a situation where I needed it and a properly driven vehicle can easily do without it safely. ABS is not standard, but the safety conscious will (likely) only buy a van that has it. Unfortuantely, marketing will dictate that it remain optional, and it's impossible to put TCS on a vehicle without it.
These two systems are very controversial. Before the arrows start flying, I am saying that I am not aware of any evidence or research that shows that TCS actually makes vehicles safer to drive and ride in. Even as a driver with a nearly perfect record, I have first hand experience that ABS does.
As for mpg, the rating is similar to many other SUVs. I'll likely spend less in extra gasoline than owners of the other safe van will spend to buy a similar warranty, as you said.
No reflection on Caviller you understand - he's always calm and logical....
Steve
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