Kia Sedona (2005 and Earlier)

bluedevils

Let me say first that it's great that Sedona received 5 stars across all 4 tests that NHTSA performed. This is topnotch performance and a real relief to current and prospective buyers, many of whom were rightfully concerned due to Korean vehicles' notoriously poor crash test ratings (at least her in the U.S. market).

While this does put Sedona at the top of the heap, tied with only 1 or 2 other minivans, it does not put Sedona miles ahead of the others. Many of the minivans have 4- to 5-star ratings. E.g. the 2002 Windstar, equipped without side airbags, earned 5 stars for driver and passenger frontal crash test and 4 stars for front and rear seat side impact crash test. This is worse performance than Sedona, but the difference is fairly minor. According to NHTSA, the greater number of stars simply means there's a lower chance of severe injury.

Not trying to rain on the parade; just trying to put a little perspective around Sedona's crash test ratings.

bluedevils

We picked up our new Sedona (EX, moonroof, leather, ABS, two-tone green over tan, Homelink; no rear spoiler - yuck!) last night. Based on 60 miles of driving so far and on the 30-mile test drive the other night in a different Sedona, my biggest complaint is that the gas and brake pedals are way too close.

I'm 5'9" and to sit at a normal distance away from the steering wheel, which is close enough to operate the radio and climate controls, the gas pedal feels way too close. Coupled with the very touchy/responsive gas pedal, my right shin works very hard to keep my right foot off the floor.

I hope I get used to this and/or find a comfortable driving position over time!

hoyahenry

Please tell the inquiring minds out here that you have voice recognition software... (I hope you will take that in stride. I couldn't resist.)

Anyway, I went back to driving the commuter sedan vehicle this week - it's too loud and too low, and the sound system...well this is a family show...stinks. Which all goes to show, that moving from one vehicle to another involves adjustments.

akwilliams

Bluedevils, I agree with you on the position of the seating relative to the pedals. I noticed it more than my wife. I think that is because I am driving the sedan and she was driving a sport ute. I have had a couple weeks to adjust and think that you may too. The biggest difference I found was that the pick-up requires a "light touch." My 300M, which has a boat load more power, just doesn't take off as quick as the Sedona. Over time I have learned to use a lighter touch -- something I have to adjust to when I get back into the 300M.

navyair

Lemon law info available at the following link:

http://www.autosafety.org/lemonlaws.html

marcolius

You are all right, man. What an excellent link. Just when I think all the internet is good for is wasting my time and getting me on junk mail and spam lists, someone demonstrates again that the information revolution really is revolutionary. You are an aviator, I assume?

huff119

Hi there. This is my first post here (please be gentle), but I have been reading your messages for about a month (yes, I've read them all). First let me thank all of you for your wonderful tips and advice about the Sedona.

We are close to ordering (or dealer locating) a Sedona EX. A friend is the GM at a Kia dealership, and will be taking care of it. He called today to say that it will be next to impossible to get exactly what we wanted (EX with two-tone paint and ABS only). My husband has already convinced me to give up the ABS (which I really wanted), but I won't budge on the paint. To get the two-tone paint, we will have to include either leather or a sunroof as an additional option.

Now to the questions. Can any of you with the leather and/or sunroof give me your opinions pro or con? I've never had leather before, but I know that all auto leather is not equal. What do you think of the Sedona's leather? Can anyone speculate on how it will hold up over time? We have two children under five. Also any thoughts on the cold in winter/hot in summer issue?

As for the sunroof, any thoughts would be wonderful. I generally like sunroofs, but the Sedona seems so spacious to begin with (never had a van before), I wonder if it is really worth it. Any problems with wind noise?

Sorry to be so long winded. We live in a mid-western state with only 5 Kia dealers, and Sedona's are hard to come by. I'm willing to pay for the extra option, but need to make a choice.

Thanks in advance for your help with this, and in our decision to buy a Sedona. It seems like a great van!

bb8

In general, Korean's leather seats are far more superior than the Japanese's leather seats, sturdy made, honest quality with a fair price.
Sunroof, a must have. ABS is another safety feature that I won't give in.
If I were you, I rather wait for 6 weeks and order from the dealer with the right color and 6 full options so I won't regret for next 10 years.

hoyahenry

I agree entirely with bb8 as a matter of opinion. Get what you want and GET THE ABS!

For facts, I was like you, leather is no big deal. But the additional cost is not prohibitive (far less than the $2-3K premium Honda adds) and it is very nice. My kids are in the same age range. The leather seats will be fine as far as I can tell, and according to what is posted here. I did post my approach to the car seats in this forum - I can find the msg# if you need it.

12-16 degrees in NY last week - didn't notice the seats being cold. The leather is gray (not say black), I have a 5$ sun reflector for the windshield, and the privacy coating on the rear windows means that hot in summer is not expected to be a problem. It may not be FL, but DC is a warm place to live; I'm not expecting an issue whatsoever.

Moonroof is great - need to get a wind deflector to cut down noise when it is open. May want to work that into the deal in advance - up to you. There is no better way to vent the heat in the summer - yee of the Midwest....

Finally, depending where you live, I'll bet you can increase the range of selection by spending $39 with Southwest Airlines. Not perfect, but worth a consideration or two to get what you want.

jster381

I'm picking up my EX this Monday! The dealer quoted a price of $930 to extend the bumper to bumper to 10 years/100,000 mi. I have a quote from an independent internet company for "wrap-around" coverage for $750 for 10 years/100,000 miles ( both have a $100 deductible). Did any other owners buy an extended warranty? What did you pay? What are your opinions? Thank you very much.

philliplc

A reputable dealer not known for playing games as far as I know (Portland, OR) is advertising a new loaded EX in today's paper for $21795 (lists leather, ABS, HomeLink, rear spoiler, sun roof, and is presumably two-tone since every loaded EX I've seen is). Does not say anything about the unit being a demo. Another dealer that had been advertising LXs for ~20k is now 19k, and another without ad prices lists 14 Sedona's in stock.

Suspect (and/or) -

- dealers are expecting it to be tough to meet quotas
- sales are slowing down regionally here more than elsewhere and things are finally getting competetive
- everyone just got a new shipment and dealers effectively have their full holdback to compete with
- there are new dealer incentives(?)

Interesting.

Phil

akwilliams

Huff, tell your husband you want the ABS on this 4700 plus vehicle. The standard brakes are good, but in the wet (or snow if you encounter it) the ABS can really help prevent an accident. Also, your insurance company should give you a discount (at least 25 dollars every six months -- perhaps more)so it will pay for itself over time. Also, if you ever want to sell it or trade it in, having ABS will certainly help you get more for the vehicle.

philliplc

This extended warranty is not worth even $750 in my opinion. It has some value, but keep in mind that you will be tying up the money for ~5 years before getting any benefit. Also, with the power train already covered to 100k, it just doesn't seem like it would be likely to pay off in most cases. Not always the case, but in general I think most major problems are more likely to show up in the first 60k than between 60 and 100k (assuming proper maintenance).

If you are serious about an after market extended warranty, you might be able to purchase that a few years down the road (before manufacturer's expires). It's presumably also a good idea to get it in writing beforehand that the dealership you expect to use for service will honor the warranty from the particular internet company you are looking at.

Phil

akwilliams

jster381, I bought the extended warranty. Spent $1000, which from what I have seen on this site was probably too much. My thinking was that since I was going to finance for 6 years (at 5.9%) I wanted the vehicle covered for that long and then some. I also wanted additional peace of mind since the Sedona is a new, unproven model. Unlike other extended warranties, this one has no deductible and is truly bumper-to-bumper. It is also transferable. I'm still not convinced I made the right decision. Others have commented rather persuasively that the bang for the buck is just not there.

philliplc

Thought I'd add as a comparative example of the Kia extended warranty's "bang for the buck" or lack thereof - Honda's 7yr/100k extended warranty on the Odyssey sells for $900-1200 (depending on where you get it), and for that they are covering everything - including powertrain all the way from 36 to 100k (Odyssey basic warranty is only 3/36 with no extended powertrain).

There is probably a premium on a Kia warranty because of their past reputation, but current evidence suggests that there's no reason to suspect that the Sedona will be any less reliable between 60 and 100k than the Odyssey. May turn out to be more reliable.

Phil

jhan759

Huff, I too would agree w/ the other posts, get the ABS for all of the aforementioned reasons. When we were shopping for ours we found it impossible to find ABS unless we also got leather. My wife wasn't crazy for the leather idea, never cared a whole lot for any of my interiors which were/are leather. The leather in our new Sedona is much nicer that the leather in my '98 Sable. While shopping I did find one Sedona w/ ABS/Leather and NO sunroof. We did end up buying one w/ a sunroof, but they are out there without. This is our 3rd mini van, and the first one w/ a sunroof. My wife loves it!

jondot

I can't believe how this page has taken off! So many good and so few bad reports. My Sedona is at 10K MILES ALREADY and doing fine, finally. I got it in September, but from a Bad dealer- took five trips to correct steering pull and off-center steering wheel. This dealer has two locations here in San Antonio-- I'm gonna try the other site if I need them anymore.

Only problem I am having is a pronounced pull to the left on application of power; the slower the speed the worse the pull, but it is always there and I have to watch for it. Anybody else notice this trait?

Other than that I am enjoy the Sedona EX with leather, sun roof but no ABS. The brakes are much better than what I had in my previous '96 Grand Caravan with ABS! They saved me from one accident I would surely have had if I had been driving the Caravan!

Gas milage is pretty much as advertised--15-16 strictly city and 19 -22 highway; but highway is usually in the steady 75+ mph range.

I'm relieved to hear about the crash test ratings. I really think we've got a good vehicle!

annam1

We just brought home a sapphire blue Ex with ABS, leather and homelink for $22,450 plus tax, title and tags. They were asking $23,l60 plus an added markup of $l995.00. The reason that we purchased was they were able to give us what we wanted on our trade-in, a 1995 chevy conversion van with 153,000 miles on it. I have read every post on this site and went in armed with LOTS of information plus another offer from an internet dealer. I did all the talking and I could tell they wanted to sell this vehicle. They have many on their lot so come on down to Budget Kia in Fredericksburg and ask for Carl Johnson and tell him Mrs. MacArthur sent you. The reason for only getting one key fob is that if you have two, they cancel each other out and then your radio needs to be re-set. Also, that yucky smell you might notice is the stuff they put on the engine in transport. That's the story I got. Anyway, although it is half the size of my former monster, I bet it is going to cost half in gas (I used premium gas $60.00 a week!) and I already feel safer. Plus, I never had leather before. Oh, I feel wicked!

huff119

I just want to thank everyone who responded to my post. Unfortunately, the ABS is probably a moot point. The closest dealer (and largest in the state) currently has about 15 Sedonas, only one of which has ABS (along with every other option). It's the only Sedona with ABS I have found in the state. I would love to spring for the fully loaded van (happens to be a color I love), but we simply can't afford it. I recently left my job to stay home with my young children, which is more important to us than having a fully loaded vehicle.

After reading your responses, I'm a bit concerned to buy the van without ABS. I've always thought ABS to be essential, but my husband claims it's not all that it's cracked up to be if you know how to properly pump the brakes (he's in law enforcement and drives almost 8 hours a day). I'm becoming steadily confused about the whole thing.

Going out of state for the van is not an option for us. However, our friend is willing to dealer locate one for us. If anyone happens to know of a dealer who has an EX with two-tone paint and ABS (with or without the leather or sunroof), I'd be eternally grateful if you could point me in that direction. I was hoping for Misty blue or Black, but at this point I am willing to be flexible. I've already tried searching dealers with websites, but most of them don't post their inventories online.

Well, I think that's quite enough of my whining (sorry)! Thanks again for all of your advice. This is a great forum!

cookie22

try Lou Fusz in St. Louis, Mo.

bb8

Not sure about the usage of the MPH display in the trip computer. it displays AVG 13 MPH or AVG 14 MPH while driving around town, folks, do you see the same thing in your trip computer?

jondot

That device is measuring mileage and elapsed time from ignition on to ignition off, what ever that is worth around town. It is more meaningful on the highway.

akwilliams

Emerald Green two tone with ABS,leather, sun roof, etc. Every option except the spoiler. Phone number is 610.791.1900

bluedevils

Which midwestern state are you in? I'm in Michigan, about 10 Kia dealers statewide, so not much better than your situation.

I'd definitely recommend ABS. It can only make things safer, and the vehicle will be much more marketable if/when you do sell it.

As of this past Monday/Tuesday, Story Kia in East Lansing had a red/beige Sedona EX with everything but the rear spoiler. I received an email quote for under $22,500-- almost $1,500 under MSRP, and I thought it a great price. Keller Kia in Grand Rapids had a green/beige one with all options and offered an initial price of about $23,400 but salesman Todd (very nice, friendly, helpful, honest over the phone) said they could probably do a bit better.

I bought a Sedona EX from Dick Scott Kia in Canton (southwest Detroit suburb) on Feb. 14. They traded with a Toledo dealer for our green/beige with all options except rear spoiler. I think they have 1 or 2 ABS-equipped Sedona EX vans coming in soon.

Hope this helps.

bluedevils

Cost of leather on Sedona EX is $700/$850 (invoice/MSRP). This is very cheap compared with the cost of leather on other vehicles. To me, leather-equipped Sedonas seem MUCH more luxurious and upscale than the cloth units. Also, cleanup (spills, dog hair, etc.) is much easier with leather.

The moonroof is also priced cheaply compared with other vehicles.

These are both features that will make your Sedona more marketable if/when you sell and probably will decrease (slightly) the depreciation of your Sedona in percentage terms. I.e., Sedonas with leather and moonroof will probably hold a higher percentage of their value over time than Sedonas without these items.

bluedevils

Hard to determine durability since we've had our Sedona only 4 days, but initial quality of the tan leather in our van seems pretty decent. Sides and backs of seats are vinyl, which is now standard practice in most vehicles even into the $30-40k range (unacceptable corner-cutting at those price points, in my view) so I don't hold that against the $24,000 Sedona.

The leather on my 1996 Mercury Mystique did not hold up well, even though I cared for it very well. Thinking back to when that car was new, I think the Sedona's leather has a more durable feel, sort of a "thicker skin." It's smooth, which doesn't bother me-- to me, most perforated leather seats are tacky/gaudy.

I don't have a preferred leather conditioner, so I'll probably follow someone's (excelent3?) recommendation and try Lexol. Is there any reason to wait a while before conditioning the leather? Is Lexol good on the vinyl seat portions too? I'd rather not use 2 different products-- more work.

bluedevils

The $930 extended warranty mentioned a few posts back isn't worthless, but to me it's worth probably $500 tops. $100 deductible is a key factor and makes a big difference vs. $0 deductible. For $930, you should be getting a zero-deductible plan.

I understand the reasons for buying one, but the marginal coverage (extending the non-powertrain items another 5yrs/40k? miles) is not very long.

Is the $100 deductible a per-visit or per-problem thing? Might make a big difference. E.g. a problem requires 4 visits before it's resolved-- $400 or $100? You bring vehicle in for 3 different things at the same time-- $100 or $300? Etc.

Previous advice about waiting a few years before buying extended coverage is wise. I'm pretty sure Warranty Gold offers its "new-car" rates as long as your vehicle is still under factory warranty. Better to wait 4 years or so (put your $$ in a money market fund or CD) and see if you think your Sedona will even need the extra coverage, before buying an extended warranty.

bluedevils

philliplc, your observations and theories are astute. Increased availability and discounts seem to be the case in my part of the country (Michigan) as well.

I identified at least 4 dealers, all 100+ miles from one another, willing to go at least $1,000 below MSRP, including one offer nearly $1,500 off MSRP.

Also, finding a vehicle with our desired equipment (loaded, but preferably without rear spoiler) was much easier than I expected. We even found 3 units meeting our first 2 color choices (green/tan or red/tan) that the local dealer was willing to trade for.

bluedevils

Our Sedona has 2-tone green over beige. This was my wife's first-choice color scheme; I preferred red over beige.

This green is a very strong green! My wife was quite disappointed-- was expecting a deeper, more subtle green-- forest green, if you will. Next time we'll see one in person instead of relying on the brochure.

I think we'll grow to like the color-- I still think it looks sharp, just not quite what we expected-- but "buyer beware."

bluedevils

sorry folks. I know I type way too much but can't help it. My typing is appx. 80 words per minute so it's quicker for me to keep typing than to review and revise.

I know the comments are all in good fun, so no offense taken here.

I tried to be shorter with today's posts!

bluedevils

Our Sedona EX has Hankook RA07 tires. I've never owned Hankook tires before, but the specs on these P215/70/R15 Hankooks are quite good. Initially I thought the tires (Hankooks or Kumho) provided on new Sedonas were a big drawback, but maybe that's not quite the case. Some specs on the Hankook RA07:

440 treadwear
A traction
B temperature
H-speed rated (up to 130 mph)
97 load rating - up to 1620? pounds
44 psi max

A higher-than-normal speed rating such as "H" is usually indicative of better handling/performance, so the "H" rating is a good sign.

44 psi max is nice to know. Not sure why these tires can handle so much air pressure. The P245/70/R16 Michelin LTX M/S on our Isuzu Trooper are rated only 35psi max, as are the 205/60/15 Pirelli P6000 on our Ford Contour.

A traction is good. B temp isn't bad; not many tires seem to have an A temp rating.

Just thought I'd post some of these details since I hadn't seen the information here yet...

bluedevils

What's the story with the first aid kit? I've seen it mentioned here and it's listed on my vehicle's window sticker. But I haven't seen it in my Sedona, and it isn't listed in the owners' manual index. Does the kit come installed in the van from the factory, or is the dealer supposed to supply it?

grandtotal

There is one thing that ABS can do that no driver, no matter how experienced, can do. That is it can modulate the braking effort applied to, say, one or two wheels which are locking up while the others are not.

philliplc

First aid kit should be in the drawer under the front passenger seat.

Phil

excelent3

Good info on tires, in fact I see now that they are putting Hankooks on the LX models also. I am VERY impressed with these tires. Last week I lset my Sedona "fly" and took her up to about 112MPH. The tires were very quiet and stability was excellent, had plenty of power left. Offer nice ride and good handling for a heavy vehicle, good solid sidewalls, which is great for the amount of towing I do... Most manufacturers put really cheap tires on new cars just to get them out the door...not so here. The 205/70 is an "off" size, others offer it (Cooper, Michelin, etc) but it is in many cases a non-stock tire.

As I have previously posted, use Lexol right away! IT will soften the leather somewhat and protect it. You will notice the difference right way. I thought the leather was somewhat dry and stiff so I knew the Lexol was a must. Great stuff and it goes a LONG way. Use it twice a year.

bluedevils

excelent3, you said 205/70/15. I think the correct Sedona tire size is 215/70/15.

hokum

I am now a believer in LEXOL. Based on the recommendation of excelent3 (who has won my trust and respect with his insightful posts), I bought some LEXOL, and applied to seats yesterday. I had used another conditioner previously, and was not impressed. LEXOL, however, did the trick.

Only drawback? LEXOL has a "unique" smell. But with a 2 yr old in the back....the smell is of no consequence.

For the individual who asked about leather seat care, with considerations about children, I have a 6 yr old, and 2 yr old. Very messy children! (they obviously take after their mother). Thus far, all "stuff" has come off of my seats. I would not change a thing.

Kindest regards to all
Hokum

jhan759

Yes, you should have a first aid kit in the compartment under the passenger seat. We didn't get one either, but will pick it up at the dealer next weekend.

jhan759

I am having a hard time locating the source of a rattle that is coming from the rear of our new Kia Ex (about 300 miles). I've played with the seat, the headrests etc. etc. still no luck. very annoying! Planning on taking it to the dealer next weekend, but was just wondering if anyone else had a similar problem or other thoughts. I also notice that when I look in the rearview mirror it appears that the third row of seats are vibrating/shimmying. Again, any thoughts?

excelent3

I have experienced exactly the same on both counts. I believe it is the seat belt coupler. Remove the seats and take it for a spin. I have mine out, and I am sure it is from the seats. If it isn't that in may be some wire resting against the back side of the finish panels or possibly a screw left behind there or in the doors. I had this occurrence in my Previa, the screw was probably mishandled in production, and I found it in the sliding door. I am impressed with how solid these panels are mounted, I would guess its not the panels themselves, probably something superficial vibrating....that can really be annoying. My seats tend to have the same "wiggle" especially when you see the headrests move. I attribute this to the road conditions, harmonic vibrations from the road can cause this at certain speeds. Yet other times they do not move. I fold them down, but I realize this may not always be practical for some. Seems each vehicle you own has its own idiosycresies, eh?

I stand corrected on the tire size. At any rate when you guys start looking around for tires, you may find as I did that there is not a good selection in that size IN STOCK. Time will tell if the Hankooks will offer good mileage. If I get 40-50 out of them I will be happy. Then I will be pricing them out.

Hokum-
Thanks for your trust...appreciate the kind words.

sthurow

I have owned my Sedona for 4 months now (about 2300 miles), and my only complaint is the rattle in the back. I have had it into the dealer twice now. The first time they said that some insulation had come loose in the rear quarter panel and they fixed that. Still rattled. The next time they said it was the headrests. The mechanic came on a test drive with me to determine this. He called the Kia hot line and said that while this has been a reported problem there was no "fix", but only a suggestion to remove the headrests, bend apart the metal rods and re-insert them to provide more "tension". He did this, but to no avail. When I got home I went in the back of the van and thumped everything I could to replicate the rattle, the seat backs themselves rattle! Even without the headrests! It is driving me nuts. If anyone has any suggestions as to what I should do next,or has a solution, I am open to suggestions.

hoyahenry

You could try lying the seats flat to see if the 90 degree offset position cancels the rattle. Alternatively, lame though this may seem, Tower Records may have something to cancel out the noise .

I did notice this, but not since the car seats were installed....

hoyahenry

Since Excelent3 likes to tow, I thought posting the latest dirt on the Honda would be well-received. Seems the warranty (and maybe the extra $1000 ext warranty also) is void if you put a hitch on the vehicle without installing the $1000+ oil and tranny cooler.

For those new to the forum/Sedona, you can buy the boat/camper with the money you save on the Honda, and the engine accessories for towing are factory installed, standard. Go Kia!

excelent3

That 3500 RPM peak torque is pretty handy too. It's to bad most do not know that horsepower does NOT play a huge role in towing, it is TORQUE. I don't think the exra horsies Honda has makes any difference other that trying to give it a marketing edge. I know better. I diesel with 90 HP with the right torque curve will outpull much higher horsepower gas powered vehicles.

Geeze- We have real problems when most of what we have to complain about is those annoying noises, yes they are annoying. Hopefully we will never see a "Kia Sedona Problems" board.

carleton1

People who got a Sedona with dismal fuel economy of 15/20 (compared to Odyssey's respectable 18/25), less interior space, no flexible 2nd row seating, small cargo space behind 3rd seat, no Magic Seat, less power than the Odyssey, etc. will not want to admit they made a mistake by not getting the superior Odyssey.

hoyahenry

Hey Excellent3! I've got an extra $10K that I "mistakenly" wound up with - besides giving it to you - any ideas on what I should do with it? Just curious!

(ow, my stomach hurts!... ;-> )

jhan759

Glad to see I'm not the only one. So, as to some suggestions:
Hoyahenry: Fortunately for me (not for you) I'm past carseats , and folding the seats down to the 90 degree position is not an option or I wouldn't have bought a van). My wife had the "Tower Record" idea too, but that isn't the point! I have a van that has 300 miles on it and rattles more than my 90,000 mile windstar (which I did sell today, yeah!).
Sthurow: Glad to see I'm not alone in my misery! I'm taking mine in to the dealer.
Excelent3: Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check the seat belts. Again, taking the seats out on a permenant basis is not an option.

philliplc

Not everyone needs or wants a cavernous, somewhat overhyped box on wheels, even if it is more of a suburban status symbol, and MIGHT save you $100/year in gas. Not everyone can or wants to fork out $30k+ for a loaded model either.

hoyahenry

I was just curious to see what would "fix" it without involving a trip to the dealer. I know everyone hopes you get the answer. Another thought would be to secure the seat belts in the latching mechanism when not in use....

For those following at home, I was in the dealership's neighborhood yesterday. Only had 4, two of each trim -no ABS .

excelent3

I think the regular posters on this board ought to check out Carleton1's profile by clicking on his name. You won't be surprised, but certainly amused.

Your posts serve no purpose other than to incite flaming which serves no purpose. Comments like "will not want to admit they made a mistake by not getting the superior Odyssey." will not win you any friends here. Most of my wifes 5th graders have more class than you. I doubt that you even afford, let alone own an Odyssey, probably just a wannabee. I see you drive a '78 Chevy Impala???? Talk about gas mileage! I doubt you could trade that in on an Ody. Are you actually employed, or do you melt snow for drinking water? If you in fact are employed, would your boss approve of this type of conduct or commentary?
Why don't you start a "Honda Odyssey Losers Board" ,you could be the lone member, and talk to yourself as much as you want!