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Comments
BlueDevils - Thanks for the service update. That is helpful to see how others have approached their servicing. Presently, there has not been anything on mine that has needed servicing- how 'bout that?!
Although I may need to have this looked at - my driverside window has a bit of clunking sound when it is brought up and into the pading - anyone else has this problem? - I noticed it on when I went through a toll-booth recently.
MSRP 20,555
Paid 17,055
Tax/Tag 1,600
18,700 out the door with the rebate going towards the down payment.
Used some of the money I saved for 3 carseats, seatcovers and a professional wash, wax and detail. Oh yeah, since I bought it on Valentine's Day, I got the little lady her Roses (ruby red ones!)
I did go with my MPV and enjoy it very much..even with the smaller size, which I personally like. I just like the sportier handling and looks of it.
Actually, I can't recall if it was making the noise when coming up to the top and entering the rubber insulation, or if it was when the window was all the way down and just starting to be raised. I'll have to pay attention to this and see if ours is still doing it.
Yesterday, we purchased a 2003 Toyota Sienna Symphony Edition. We struggled with deciding between the Toyota and Sedona for weeks. My wife loved the Kia that the dealer was kind enough to let us drive for the weekend - as did I. We had no complaints and it performed flawlessly.
We decided on the Sienna for the following reasons:
1. Parts seem to be more readily available in our area [Western PA] for Toyotas vs. Kia. For some reason, Kia has trouble supplying parts here - even common ones such as brakes and rotors. I got this from talking to the service professionals at two Kia dealers in the area. Plus the larger dealer network, both locally and nationally, provides me peace of mind.
2. The Toyota was offered at a great price [and interest rate] as they are trying to unload the '03's before the new 04 Sienna's arrive in mid-March. The price of the Toyota was about $1,200 above the Kia and had a few options not offered on the Sedona [power sliding door and front side air bags being two].
3. After mulling over this for two months or so, I guess I would rather have a Toyota in the driveway instead of a Kia. I have nothing to substantiate this because the Sedona looks and feels like the Toyota in every way.
4. The Sienna is a bit smaller and the wife is comfortable driving it.
That said, I'd like to wish all the best of luck with your Sedonas and that we appreciate all the advice over the last few months.
I (for one) am glad Kia didn't put electric slider on door, after all the problem board reports on them. Personal preference, and a definate plus when arms full, or little kids in tow. However, I lived this long without help, so guess I'll live a little longer.
Felt the handling was better with the Kia, although that is a very personal thing.
Concur that I'd like side curtain airbags all around front and rear (esp far rear) and hope Kia is listening.
Four added (cheap) things I'd like on my 2003 Kia:
1. Ford style exterior mirror "turn indicators" for when I'm towing.
2. Wide angle mirror below current normal view. (avail aftermarket)
3. Floor hideaway compartment for 20' jumper cables and some tools...about 2'x2'x 9"d
4. Ford style dual sun visors (which have 2 sun visors per station) Useful in mountain/curved road driving.
Wouldn't it be nice if the Kia aftermarket shop had more accessories like some of the the above to purchase?
Glad to hear your dealer was helpful in loaning you a Sedona for the weekend and that the service guys were forthcoming about parts availability.
Chalk up another person who respects the Sedona even though he didn't buy one. To me, this is a good thing for Sedona - it's not just the owners who like them. Someone who considered Sedona and found it worthy but bought a competitor is naturally less biased toward Sedona than we Sedona owners are.
A few comments:
1. Blue - there was a somewhat of a sludge issue with some Toyota engines in prior years. Toyota revised their warranty to cover any potential problems. In addition, in March of 2002 Toyota changed a baffle plate in the valve covers and since then, there have been no reports of sludge. As far as respect for the Sedona, I think you can tell I have nothing but good things to say about the van.
2. Navyair - the power door was not high on my list either. As a matter of fact, it's operation in general looks pretty flimsy to me. However, it came as part of the package so I didn't have to make a decision one way or the other. I'll let you know how it works with the baby in one arm and bags in the other. It should work as advertised. I like all of your suggestions for a "wish list". Perhaps Toyota will be listening as well.
I'll be happy to provide updates [both good and bad] on the performance of the Toyota.
Interestingly - it seems that many automakers are making deals to get rid of inventory. I just could not pass up the Sedona given all of its features and warranty coverage. It simply is tops.
Bluedevils - thanks for keeping me updated on the power window. I may take mine in for a look see.
You're likely to have many many (read: 200k or more) happy, trouble-free miles with your Sienna. I hope the same can be said of us and our Sedona. So far, so good.
You should be looking at $22,000, OR LESS, for that van. At $23,400, the dealer is basically charging you full MSRP for the van, giving you the rebate, and charging you full price for the aforementioned overrated dealer-installed accessories. This is a good deal for the dealer, but not for you. Definitely not a "fair deal!"
Is there a vehicle trade-in involved with your deal, or not?
Yes, you still should be able to negotiate until the papers are signed. It's up to you, but I would try to negotiate a little more. Ask him that you see others are getting better deals thru your research on Edmunds.com and say for him to close the deal, he would need to come down to $23K. I think he may come down $400 after all this to not lose the sale. The worst that will happen is that he won't budge. The best that could happen, is that you can save a few hundred dollars.
How long is the 0% financing? I thought it was pretty short - 24 months or something. With good credit, you should be able to get a bank loan for 48-60 months in the 4.5-5.0% range. So 0% for 24 months really wouldn't be that appealing to me.
My parents paid $21,350. That price is BEFORE taxes, title, and registration but it included the $1,000 rebate. Their 2003 EX has all the factory options (leather, moonroof, rear spoiler, ABS - I think that's it) except the trailer hitch. No trade-in involved. The dealer agreed to that price without a whole lot of haggling. Perhaps that was partly because it was month- and year-end, but I don't think entirely. The dealer had to do a trade with another dealer to get the desired van. This is not a major favor for a dealer to do this for a customer; it happens all the time.
If the dealer you are working with won't come down at least $500-$1,000, you should shop elsewhere. It *is* a buyer's market right now on most vehicles, including Sedona.
At least one other person had worked a deal recently that was even better than what my parents got. I believe it was fvp, who ended up buying a Sienna instead. I'm pretty sure he was around $21,200 for a loaded 2003 EX with everything except trailer hitch.
What price is the dealer charging you for the accessories (moonroof wind deflector, mudflaps, and cargo net)? These shouldn't be more than $200-300 tops.
One thing to consider: supply and demand in your area will dictate your bargaining power. Around here [Western PA], Kia is not moving many units. I knew this, the dealer knew this, so I was in a good position. In your area, this may not be the case. However, cars in general are not selling so I will join with Blue and palmer by saying I believe you can do better.
Hey Blue - I still feel some strange alliance with you guys and your Sedonas. Tough to figure.
sedonawanabe2, if it were me and I could do $500+ better outside of my local market, I would work a deal with an out-of-town dealer. Not sure where you are located, but add Michigan to the list of areas that does not seem to have extremely high demand for Sedonas. Dealers seem willing to dicker and deal around here. 3 years ago I flew to Maryland on an $87 one-way ticket, had salesman pick me up at the airport, went to the dealer and completed the deal, and drove 10 hours home in my new vehicle because Michigan dealers didn't have what I wanted at the price I wanted to pay. This may not be an option for you, but it's something I wanted to throw out there as an idea.
I checked with a Michigan zip code (try 48328) a couple months ago and their price was quite good on a loaded '03 EX. I think it was somewhere in the $21,500 range which included the $1,000 rebate.
The carsdirect pricing seems to vary a lot depending on geographic location; it may be that their price in your area is similar to what your local dealer is offering. But by trying out some other zip codes, you can get an idea of how much greener the grass is in other areas of the country.
Emailing a few Kia dealers for a quote is another low-hassle option, either via kia.com or other third-party web sites.
Thanks for all the GREAT input. I tried carsdirect.com and w/all options (w/the exception of tow package) I got $23,362-maybe it is our area. When we were initially looking-I did call a dealer in MA and told him that our current salesguy could get us a deal of 23,000 ( I fibbed) I told him if he was willing to meet or beat that price we would be willing to drive the hour to his dealership-he could not-and said, "he was really surprised that we got that price-and there must be hidden costs". As far as financing-we got the 0% for the full 60 months. Our dealership should be calling in a few weeks to tell us they have our van-I am going to take all of your advice and tell old Donald we want it, but for 23 even. I hope this is a good van-it looks fabulous, it drives great and the price is right.....bye for now....
When I was shopping, the Kia dealer close to me had 12 Sedonas sitting on his lot and traffic in the showroom was light - at best. He wanted to move cars - he even gave us the keys to drive one for the weekend. This may not be the case in your area. If supply is limited and sales are brisk, you will not get the deal that Blue's parents or I did. Do the best you can and enjoy. The 0% is great and that will save you dough, but I still think you can do a bit better on the price.
One thing to keep in mind. Be ready to walk if your offer is not accepted. Better yet, have a backup plan in place so you can leave if they stand firm. If they know you are willing to leave if your price is not met, you'll be surprised what will happen.
Blue - I think it's a combination of the two. I like the Sedona and have an ongoing interest in how you guys are making out as well as participating in a lively, productive discussion. I haven't found that yet on the Toyota board - sorry to put my nose in where it doesn't belong.
The guy you are dealing with is trying to make it seem like it's tough finding a van that you want. Don't fall for it - inventories are high. Every commercial on the radio or TV is a car commercial. In today's market, YOU have the advantage.
How do you know that you'll get the 0% financing in a 'few weeks?' What if the program has ended or changed by the time this salesperson finally 'locates' your van?
Sounds to me that this salesman has not done much to help you out or to deserve the sale or to justify you waiting a 'few weeks' for him to 'come through.' If you don't feel like shopping around at other dealers, at least demand more details from the salesman.
The dealer at which my parents purchased their '03 EX didn't seem to have high demand for Sedonas, but on the other hand they didn't have more than 4-5 Sedonas in stock, and they had to trade their only EX w/leather to get my parents' desired van from another dealer. So it's not like they were sitting on a pile of vans and were eager to move existing inventory.
So it wouldn't surprise me if other folks could get a good price even if a dealer has a modest inventory.
For what it's worth, I still think you a $1,000 too high.
You said '23,900' in your last post. I presume you meant 22,900? At 22,900 I'd say you are within $500 of a really good price and 22,900 isn't bad. 23,900 would be way too high - I think that must have been a typo since earlier you mentioned he had quoted you 23,400 - right?
I agree with the others that 23,400 is too high - that, with a dealer eager to puff up his February numbers, 22,400 might be doable. However, it is going to be tough to know for sure since you are dealing on a "phantom" car. It would be far better for you if you were dickering with a dealer over some metal that had been collecting dust on his lot for months, and he was getting tired of looking at it.
Also, I feel that we gained significantly from the fact that weather in our area was miserable for the entire month of January. It helps if you are the only living, breathing floor traffic for the last two weeks of the month. That is why they called us on the 31th. February's weather has been equally miserable - I would try to take full advantage of that fact if I were you. If you wait until March, and the crocuses are breaking ground, your dealer may no longer have that scent of desperation sweat about him.
I think that I would try some other dealers - find a vehicle that, while not perfect, you can live with. Offer them 2,000 under MSRP, and see if they laugh. Somebody may not. You still have four days this month to get it done. The grizzlies may get awfully hungry come Friday. Good luck.
This should be a good week to negotiate, last weekend of the month.
Unless you are desperate (and it doesn't sound like you are) hold firm to the combo/price you want.
We ended up with an alternate color (dark green vice blue) but paid what we wanted. Added accessories for 1/2 of dealer price (bug guard, sunroof wind guard, rear mudflaps...front ones already molded in). Van is running fine and getting 20+ mpg.
Bought a close out model auto DVD player (2 actually) so ended up with entertainment center(s) for less than $500 and can relocate to hotel/other cars. Now I'm shopping for an auto GPS.
Good luck with the purchase, wannab2. Recommend you check out all available sources over Internet. I never even had to deal with dealer until I did quick test drive of actual purchased vehicle, then signed on the line. Price was already negotiated before I set foot on the showroom floor.
Go to the pricing info on kia.com or Edmunds site to see the real MSRP of the vehicle (excluding the dealer stuff, which such sites don't show) to keep the salesman honest.
I posted some details several weeks back about the invoice pricing of the Sedona my parents purchased. It was from what seemed to be legit Kia paperwork from Kia that the salesman had on his desk (he readily showed it to us). Search this forum for "invoice" and you should see a couple posts from me in Dec 2002 or Jan 2003. Some of the costs, such as marketing fees, may vary by region or date.
Also check out Edmunds for their invoice pricing. I don't think most 3rd-party web sites include costs that vary regionally, though. Therefore, the Edmunds invoice number may be a bit too low.
The Edmunds True Market Value (TMV) usually seems to be a decent price on a vehicle, but I've found it is often higher, sometimes several hundred dollars higher, than what the most savvy buyer can get at a good buying opportunity (end of month, slow month, eager dealer, etc.). Don't get stuck on their $23,625 price. Many others have done quite a bit better than that.
This salesperson currently has you lined up for a deal that will pay him quite nicely. My advice is to tell him, probably in a nice way, that you have learned you should be getting a much better deal and that he will need to cooperate in order to get the sale.
I'd agree that February may be a better month than March to get a really good price on the van.
I just realized I have the invoice stuff jotted down next to my keyboard. Here goes:
MSRP 2003 Sedona EX with moonroof, leather, ABS, rear spoiler: $24,370. Invoice price (includes $433 marketing allowance): $22,663.
My parents paid $21,350 after rebate - so $22,350 before rebate. Assuming the mktg fee was legit, the dealer went into the holdback on this deal.
You are looking at the same equipment, plus the dealer-installed moonroof wind deflector, mud flaps, and one other minor item. The "MSRP" of your desired vehicle should be $200-300 higher, at the very most, than the $24,370.
Don't let your dealer get $500 or more for these dealer-installed items!
That may be true, but it may not. The other side of it is this: a dealer that lines up a vehicle in the distribution pipeline and sells it immediately upon arrival at the dealership isn't using up hardly any of the holdback money. I'm no holdback expert, but this money is basically there to cover the costs of carrying the vehicle on the lot (insurance, covering dealer's other fixed costs, etc.) - correct? So in theory, the dealer should prefer to sell a unit through the just-in-time inventory method instead of 'unloading' one that's been sitting on his lot a few months. I'm not talking about a vehicle that's so old (maybe even last year's model) that it has lost its appeal and is harder for the dealer to sell. I'm talking more about a current model year vehicle that has been there for 3-6 months and really is no different from the current units arriving at the dealer now. Doesn't the dealer come out better by selling a vehicle as soon as it arrives vs. carrying it for 3-6 months before selling it? Wouldn't the dealer prefer to sell all/most of his vehicles right away like that?
I propose the following for what it is worth.
Call your salesman early tomorrow morning and tell him that additional research has convinced you that 23,400 is too high. Your new offer is 22,400 - he will take that to his sales manager who will come back with 23,000-23,400. Whatever it is, you say "no, it is still too high. I have enjoyed working with you, but it looked like this deal is not going to happen," and hang up.
Don't call Thursday and wait until about 1:00 to 2:00 on Friday ( giving him a chance to call you) and say "I'm still at 22,400 and you are at 23,000-23,400 - let's split the difference." If he agrees, your price is between 22,700 and 22,900 so you are happy or really happy. Either you get it done.
And, as always, this piece of advice and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
BD, your points on holdback are well taken. It basically goes back to the dealer's concept of business. Is he going for low markup and high volume, or lower volume and greater profit per vehicle? That will vary from dealer to dealer and very well may vary from time to time within the same dealership.
Also, our Edmund's TMV price was about 800 too high.
Our '02 Sedona EX performed flawlessly. It was so comfortable that I didn't have to swap driving duties with my wife.
Even though the cargo space behind the back seat is a little small, we still had no trouble packing for 2 adults and 3 children for a 3 day, 2 night stay.
Radio got great reception so there were tons of tunes to choose from.
Heater worked like a champ and everyone was warm and toasty.
This was our first highway trip in the Sedona so the cruise control took a little getting used to. Very different from the Ford products I usually drive. I liked it after I got the hang of it, though.
Handled like a dream in spite of its weight. I didn't venture out into the really bad stuff. But the day we left there was still some ice on the roads, plenty of slush, and it was raining. The van was predictable and we all felt safe and secure.
Despite the ratings of its engine this van has plenty of power (I've posted about this before) and it's really evident on the interstate. Acceleration was never a problem. Even when passing in tight spots. And it gets up to 90 pretty quick for something that weighs more than 2 tons.
Only one minor disappointment: gas mileage. Based on what we get around town (17-18 mpg) I was expecting more. We averaged 21 mpg for the whole trip. Better than the 20 rating - but I had hoped for more. Might have something to do with my habit of driving 10-15 over the speed limit, though.
It was time to change the oil when we got back. Did it myself and I gotta say: this was the quickest and easiest oil change I've done in years. Everything is pretty much "right there" when you get underneath the van.
After 4 months and 6000 miles we still love our little Korean import!
Re: oil change yourself. I'm changing the oil on ours and have a problem getting the old filter off without causing a big mess. There's a big metal cross member or something right underneath the filter. I've tried putting the old filter in a Ziploc bag to trap the oil when removing but the access is so tight I can't get the filter out without getting oil all over the cross member. How have you handled that?
So you got 21mpg overall. What was your typical highway speed? We get 22 or so with 75mph cruising and a little non-highway driving mixed in. If you're driving 10-15 over, you are probably around 80 or so? 21mpg at 80mph isn't bad at all.
As for the oil change: I noticed the cross member you mention. I went at the filter from the side.
To the left of the filter (on the passenger side, that is) is a plastic shield held in place by a couple of "plastic rivets" or something - that's what I call them anyway. Pop those out and the shield can be pushed back out of the way. The filter is then easily accessible. For me anyway. Maybe because I'm left handed?
Now - how do I change my handle? Anybody know? Can it even be done?
You could re-register I suppose, but you didn't hear it from me, since having two id's here is against the member agreement.
Bluedevils - no soup for you! <g>
Steve, Host
Seems okay for Edmunds to say having 2 IDs is against the member agreement, but they should make it easier to change one's existing handle. I know of at least one solid contributor on Town Hall who had problems with his existing account and he/she had to create another account since he/she was unable to resolve the problems with the first account. Adding a second account was the only way for this person to continue participating on Town Hall.
bluedevils,
Those little "rivets" are really no trouble. At least mine weren't. The head is like a phillips head screw. Back 'em out a few turns while pulling on the rivet and they pop right out.
Then the rivet is in 2 parts. After oil change, pop the outer part back in place and then insert the screw. Tighten it a few turns. Voila!
Steve, Host
I am in love my new van. Everything about it is better than I thought it would be. Like most people on this board I looked at several vans. I chose the Sedona over the Mazda, Oddy and Toyota because of the warranty, amenities and then price.
A big thank you to everyone who has posted help for all of us out here that read much more than we post. This board is (I think) the best one on the 'net.
Got it from Kia Lia in Schenectady who has actually treated us well for service.
If memory serves we were out the door for about 23,400 with tax/fees included. That was after rebate and the tax rate is about 8% if I remember right (Albany county is my county of residence).
Pricing on fully loaded 2003 and 2002 EX Sedonas is very similar, so that suggests a no-rebate, pre-tax price of $22,500 is doable in upstate NY. Obviously, market forces and other factors could be much different now than 9 months and a model year ago, but this does seem to indicate that upstate NY dealers were giving prices competitive with the best prices mentioned in other parts of the country. I see no reason why dealers in that area would be less competitive now than they were then.
I've also been noticing the rear door's speed as it is opened. It shoots right up until about half way before the hydraulic supports catch them. Again, this is in cooler weather. Additionally, I've noticed that I have to slam the rear door (usually twice) for it to catch and stay tightly closed when it's cold outside. Anyone having this problem also?