Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

hamproof

I think you are confused. Size doesn't matter for you or her since she's 5' and you are 6'6".

The conclusive evidence comes from the fact her requirement for the Si having only 160HP and 15". That's subpar in a lot of people's mind. If it came with 200HP and 17", do you think people will complain? Heck ya! They'll want 220HP.

So, size doesn't matter to her. 160HP is adequate. 15" is good enough. I wonder what else

dmould

While I haven't driven a car with CVT, I have put many thousands of miles on snowmobiles, which all use CVTs. These transmissions are very efficient in their power delivery, and fun to ride. My 600cc, 116hp, 500 pound snowmobile will do 0-60mph in about 4 seconds.
Having said that, I still like manual transmissions in vehicles. I haven't owned an automatic yet, driving for 14 years.

rivertown

160 hp and 15's @ 15K, along with everything else in the Si package, is subpar, huh?

So, Ham, wanna define par? LOL, much less point to a car that shoots par?

rivertown

I'd be really suprised if you had to pay as much as sticker for an Si, anywhere in the US.

If you can't get close to 15k on an '02 in Seattle, you might wanna think Chicago: http://www.communityhonda.com/advertised_specials.htm
It would cost you what, $500, to go get one of these and drive it home?

napapacoda

Rumor has it Community Honda only has 1 more 02 Honda left (pretty sure it's silver). If anyone wants it, I suggest going soon.

gee35coupe

A 16k 160 hp car for commuting to work is more than adequate. No apex clipping, 1/4 mile racing, not skipad running, no 0-100-0 runs.. just going to work. The Civic is more car than anything new you can get for the price. As has been rehashed to oblivion.. We would not have bought a 19k SI but for 16K loaded it's more than "adequate".

anonymousposts

Most people who do think 160HP and 15" wheels are inadequate will buy something else. Most people won't drop $16,000-$18,000 for something they aren't satisfied with. Since the average price seems to be hovering right around the $16,000 mark I decided to see what else I can get for $16,000.

I can get a Cavalier LS coupe with a roof for $14,000. It has 16" wheels but only has 140HP.

I can get an Elantra GT for only $14,058 but again it has 142HP (actually closer to 130HP if you factor in Hyundai's "miscalculation") and it comes with 15" wheels too.

A Protege5 can be had for $16,000 but it comes with only 130HP but it does have 16" wheels.

You can get a base Golf GL with 115HP and 15" hubcaps for $15,500.

or .....

you can get an SI which has more power than all of the cars above yet only gives up 1" in wheel size. So if you can tell me that you would rather drive any of the above cars over the SI then you definitely bought the wrong car. I've said several times before I would NOT pay $19,600 for the SI especially when I can get a cloth Accord EX 5-speed for $19,600. But for $16,000 there's not a new car out there that can touch the SI.

I'm not imposing anything on anybody. The people who bought the SI knew the HP rating and wheel size before they bought it. If it wasn't satisfactory to them then again, they shouldn't have bought it. But it doesn't matter to me what the other 99.9% of the people think about the SI. My .01 is the only percentage I give a flying flip about.

rivertown

rivertown

Anony, the last time we has this discussion - the best Si competitor in it's price range, the closest seemed to be a used Focus SVT, an '02 with something like 860 miles on the odo. And, NOBODY was foolish enough to say they would choose a used SVT over a new Si.

It's easy to pick and quizzle in the abstract. 'I want 16" wheels.' 'I want more hp.' Yada, yada, yada. And, it's easy to compare the Si to cars costing 1/2 again or twice as much and then say the Si is lacking.

The bottom line here for me is that NOBOBY has identified a car they like more than the SI that can actually be bought for 16k or less. That obviously makes the Si the "best in class".

"Subpar", "daily beater", etc., used to describe the "best in class" really tells you something - about the speaker more than about the car.

napapacoda

I believe only the 2002 SI's can be purchased at 16K or less. I believe it is the year 2003 and is unfair to try and look at a 2002 price compared to a 2003 car as basically all other 2002's have sold. Although I like the SI, it is evident that the general public of the US does not care for them, otherwise there wouldn't be any 2002's left. The cheapest I would assume you can purchase a 2003 right now is 17,500, and that is a pretty good price considering invoice is 17,800. I am not going to get in the middle of any fued, but please, don't compare apples to oranges.

BTW - 2003 Nissan Sentra Spec V - $16,500. I personally don't like the car because its 4 door, but many people don't like the SI because its a hatchback so thats a draw. The main reason I don't like the hatch is because it doesnt have a real trunk, making it easier for some thug to steal a system.

Lastly, best in class doesn't mean that it has to be a car exactly as much as your car costs or less, it is usually just similar cars with varied prices. And I would hope that in an SI forum, the SI would be thought of as the best in its class; hell I think it is.

gee35coupe

If they has kept the numbers down to where everyone else makes em. Ford only want to sell 7000 SVT's Mazda only sold 2000 MP3's and 2500 Mazdaspeeds. What the heck was Honda thinking with 15,000 5 speed only Si's? No one in this country drives stick. And they tried to sell 15,000 of them? Come on man what is Honda thinkin'?

And the way they look too. They need an aero kit for the sides and front. They look to cutesy for a "sporty" car. And girls buy cutesy but the don't drive stick.

rivertown

I agree, it's a marketing flub that's getting us our great prices.

Truly no feud intended, Napa; but it only seems unfair to compare cars that you can't actually buy. Not factoring in marketing flubs seems unrealistic - sorta like overlooking the Golf's hp @ 15K. When 15K '02 Si's are gone is when the comparison gets unfair.

hamproof

Btw, you are right. 2003 can't be had for $15k. Yet. Give it a few months and dealers will be *giving* them away. Heck, they are giving free CD changers now. It won't be long before they'll offer 17" rims. Maybe not for free but for a nominal fee. Say $500.

I'm pretty sure a factory sports package of some kind will appear like they did for the EX Civic Coupe. Hopefully they won't charge $4k MSRP like they did for the EX Coupe.

At that time I wanna see what anony and gee would say about the 17" rims since historically AND traditionally it didn't come with one.

revka

Some messages have been deleted from this discussion. As mentioned in my previous post, messages that contain personal comments about other participants are subject to automatic deletion.

So if you don't want to be writing with disappearing ink, leave out all the personal comments/jabs. And now, back to the subject of the Civic Si / Sir!

Revka

Host/Hatchbacks & Wagons

napapacoda

Riv: It is unfair to compare 2002's to 2003's, Period. If you want to wait until all 2002's are sold at 15k or less, lol, I hope you're patient enough to wait for the 2004 model. Some dealers in NY are sitting on A LOT of them.

Hamproof: I agree with the sports package idea. For some reason, I believe either this model will die after 2003 or will be significantly remodeled to appeal to the general public. It isn't just coincidence that the 1999-2000 SI are the only years they made SI Coupes and are the most desired of all Civics, selling for just about as much as a new 2002 SI costs.

I just saw a metallic blue Mazda MP3 on the road today, I have to admit those are nicer looking in my opinion than the Spec V.

gee35coupe

were very popular too. 125hp and 14" wheels and all.

The MPS has no sunroof or cruise. More a bonafide autocross car than commuter turned sporty like the SI. If you want to autocross that car is more purpose-built or that.

rivertown

If you're looking at bang for the buck, it seems more than fair to compare '02's and '03's, so long as they can actually be bought. What's really bogus is to compare a car you can't conveniently buy, like the SVT, with a car you actually can buy.

It's no skin off my nose, though, if someone wants to pay 1.5K - 2.5K more for the '03 designation. Given that that's all you get for the extra bucks, though, it doesn't really look very smart. Is there some advantage I'm missing?

stickguy

Given the short gearing, how buzzy is the new Si on the highway? What is the engine turning at 60 MPH?

hamproof

at 90MPH, it is at 5000rpm.

But you can't hear the engine at that speed since wind noise is overpowering due to poor aerodynamics I suspect and poor rubber seals. But that's expected from a econobox 4 banger.

My guess would be at 60MPH, it is at 3500RPM.

rivertown

Right at 3K rpms in 5th, and smooth and strong. I'm impressed by the lack of mechanical buzz even at 80-100 mph. LOL, some folks will complain about the wind noise at these speeds, though; and it's true, there is some.

Oh my! There is more wind noise at 80-100 than mmechanical noise. And, you actually need to turn up the stereo to about 1/2 max volumn.

rivertown

I was turning 5.1K rpm at 100 mph in 5th and calculating top speed at redline in 5th to be about 130 mph. There seemed to be no lack of ooomph to reach that redline, either.

Ham, if you're reading your guages right, you truly did get a different version of the Si from mine.

hamproof

Maybe I'm the oddball. I don't like to drive w/ my radio on or cd playing. Maybe that's why I'm hearing all these buzzing and rattling coming from every crook and cranny in the car.

It gets worse w/ the lower tempt. and bad roads in Detroit. Maybe you can try driving around for a few days w/o your radio on or cd playing and see if you can hear any of the mysterious sound coming from my car in your car.

I don't remember what 60MPH is. I hardly drive a long time at that speed to pay attention. But I do remember what 100MPH was. And it was close to 5700RPM. Maybe I'll give it a try this evening and see if I'm right about it.

But 5000RPM, I'm just at 90MPH. That I'm pretty sure. I'll give it a try going home tonight and will post my findings.

rivertown

I got a little creak-rattle from the driver's side roof pillar that started and then stopped and that sounded like plastic on plastic at the start of our 300 mile jaunt yesterday. That was it, aside from the wind noise.

I dunno, Ham. Even the objective stuff, like gear ratios, on our cars is apparently different; so, yours could well be a different version.

gee35coupe

revs very freely and smooth. It does rev rather high on the freeway but it has balance shafts and is rather quiet in it's operation.
Rivertown is right on about the revs. On other SI board they say it'll touch redline in fifth at 130 mph. It is kinda disconcerting seeing the revs that high for a long time but the engine seems to love it.

hamproof

I just found out my Si, or what I thought is an Si, turns out to be a Focus SVT.

Ok.. who re-badged the car and sold it to me as the highly acclaim Honda. Bastards even took away the 17" rims and put on the excellent OEM 15" Honda Si rims, took away the 160watts Focus factory radio and put in the 35watts top of the line Honda radio and they even put in the Si engine complete w/ Honda badges.

No wonder my car buzzes and rattles like crazy!

rivertown

I still dunno, Ham.

It sounds like miracle or magic to me.

Maybe you need to see the SORCERER' APPRENTICE, reread A COURSE IN MIRACLES, and practice on simple stuff like pencils, cookware, and handtools before you try this stuff on something as complex as a car?

Your experience reminds me of the very beautiful and young, but dumb, blonde and the very ugly and rich, but brilliant, old guy who married and hoped for very beautiful and bright children. Their 1st child was an ugly imbecile, for whom they needed to commit their fortune to a trust insure the kid's lifelong care.

gee35coupe

I fear it may disappear soon but kudos all the same.

hamproof

Just the one and only Si sold to be by Honda w/ the creak and rattle package and 27MPG free of charge.

rivertown

POOF! It's gone!

stickguy

thanks for the info on Revs. Since you all are hanging around, how does the back seat (room and access) work out in real life? I have 2 kids (7 and 11) that are pretty skinny and agile, so it's not like I'm trying to get old folks in, but I still want to make sure they have decent leg room and can get in and out OK.

Also, any problems with the larger doors, even though these seem pretty short for a 2 door.

I got interested in the Si at the car show last weekend. I was looking at Mini Coopers (among other things), and there really isn't room for 4 in that baby, but the Civic looks like it might serve the same purpose, and allow the kids to keep their legs. Plus it is cheaper.

gee35coupe

We love our SI. If you want the fastest thing on wheels, it's not. But for the price you pay ($16.5K to $17.5K) it can't be beat. The engine revs like glass and it seems to be solid little car. Be sure you check the oil during breaking cause it can be a thirsty lil bugger. I think you'll love it as long as you know what you are getting into. And not have some lofty dream of running Indy or something.

hamproof

I'm not running Indy or anything remotely close to that.

But the car doesn't even have strong enough brakes to hold itself on a slight incline. Sad. Real sad.

rivertown

I'm 5'8", 190 lbs, and a fairly fit 50+ year old. Getting in/out of the back seat is no hitch for me, and the upright seating position and toe space under the front seats gives me plenty of leg room.

The front passenger seat folds and slides forward with one lever on the back, like on many 2 doors. As a regular thing, I'd get tired of that; but my take is that it's as good as a little two-door gets.

Not even factoring in price, I'd go Si over Mini considering the service network.

stickguy

Thanks all. I will have to swing by the dealer tonight with my son and test fit/drive.

hamproof

Hey, quickie for you. I'm 5'9" 160lbs. Your height is quite similar to mine though you are about 10 chickens heavier than me.

In your comfortable steering/clutch/brake sitting position (to me is elbow slightly bent and wrist resting on top of the steering wheel and head/back fully on the seat), is it easy to reach to the seatbelt? I find myself arching a little too much my body.

Also, do you have problems reading the km/h in the dawn/dusk time when your headlights are on? What about your MPH readings in the same lighting conditions but you venture under an overpass?

Mine is so dim that I can't even make out the numbers.

hamproof

Just to throw another car out there for you. What about the Matrix XRS or Focus SVT assuming you don't mind the Focus.

rivertown

You might wanna check out the "Honda Civic Owners: What did you pay?" posts. There's a bunch of good price and shopping info.

Good luck!

napapacoda

Riv Quote: "It's no skin off my nose, though, if someone wants to pay 1.5K - 2.5K more for the '03 designation. Given that that's all you get for the extra bucks, though, it doesn't really look very smart. Is there some advantage I'm missing? "

The big advantage you are missing is that the 2003 model is worth more in resale value. Unless you plan on driving the car until it gets beat to the ground (hey, you might, didn't know people over the age of 50 would buy a civic SI) I would rather spend 2grand more knowing that my car is worth a considerable amount more than a 2002, not to mention I can buy a blue civic for 2003. Although I like the car and still am considering one, it will take more than just a 2grand discount to make me purchase a 2002 over a 2003.

rivertown

KBB (I couldn't get the data out of Edmunds) shows an '00 Si bringing about 1K more than a '99, same condition and same mileage. Maybe the '00 had a standard alarm or ABS or something that the '99's didn't have?
So, it looks like the year designation alone is worth about a K, two-three years down the pike and assuming the '00 wasn't better equiped.
I could see a strong color preference being worth $500 - $1500 to some people.

LOL, they didn't card me when I bought my Si. Maybe I look younger than I am.
And, yep, I'd prefer to keep a decent car 100K+ miles. I'd still be happy with my '99 Si @ 42.5K miles if the Vandals, Goths, Crips, Bloods, or unclanned illegitimi had left it where I parked it in front of my house.

anonymousposts

I love my SI. Once warmed up, the engine is VERY smooth no matter what the revs are. This car is way more suitable for day-to-day driving than our 2000 SI's were.

scooter71

I love the reference to "unclanned illegitimi". Good work. But sorry about the MIA car.

Did someone state that they drive 90-100 MPH through the city of Detroit, but not 60 MPH? I'd love to witness that (from a helicopter, of course).

Saw a silver SI at a Seattle area dealer today, and I believe it was the same one there 2 months ago. It would be surprising, since Seattle is a MAJOR hotbed for modified Hondas, Type-R's, etc, and some dealers are known to add $2-$3k to sticker of models in black or white, with 5-speeds, and still sell them as fast as they stock them.

stickguy

The Focus isn't my cup of tea. Too rough and boy-racerish. I did look at the Matrix when it came out, and it is functionally perfect for my needs, but I didn't really care for driving it. Although, it was a base A/T (all they had). Just afraid that the 180HP engine will be too high strung.

Given how much time I spend driving around town, a wide power (torque) band is much preferable to a high winder. Plus the Civic doesn't look too flashy. Unfortuneatly, I seem to be the target audience for the more "Mature" owner.

The 2 dealers by me are advertising 2002s at about 16.8k (although one over in PA has one for 15,995). No idea about colors and availability. Local guy will do any 2003 Civic for $100 over invoice., so about 18K for an '03. Seems like good value for the money. A mini comparably equipped would be 23K

gee35coupe

If you can get past the fact it may be supposed to be a pocket-rocket it makes a great daily driver. In fact I think it may be closest to what a pocket-rocket is supposed to be than any other car. The FX-16 had like 120hp, the SE-R had 140, the original SI's had 120hp. And they were all cheap to maintain. All had 14" tires too. Guess Honda is the only ones who still know the true meaning of pocket rocket.

rivertown

Drive one yet? It sounds like you'll like the torque characteristics. About the only thing I can see that might wear you out is two doors and two regular passengers.

stickguy

It might wear the kids out, since they will get in/out the passenger side. They are old enough now that they buckle themselves in. No way I would do a 2 door with car seats!

Didn't have time to drive tonight. May try tomorrow. Only wat in the front briefly at the car show, but my sone said he had plenty of room in the back. I do need to sit all around, look at the trunk, etc.

I actually had a Civic S once (an '84, pre-i), although that was in my younger days. Wonder how it moved with only 82 (or so) HP, and stayed upright with ( I think) 13" wheels, although they may have been 14". Weighing 2100 or less lbs probably helped.

stickguy

The biggest reason I got attracted to the Civic. I had them for years, and really miss the utility of my '91 Mazda 626 5-door. Best design for a small car. Too bad the Mazda 6 didn't come out with the hatch already. I thought about the Pro5, but it seemed a little down on power or something when I drove it.

rivertown

I'm sorry I overlooked replying.

I think we may use a different driving position. My arms and legs are short - 33" sleeves & 29" inseam; so, I think I'm closer to the dash. Even so, I hardly ever wear the belt; so, putting it on always seems awkward.

I have no trouble seeing the kmh, mph numbers; though I don't recall even wanting to know kmh. Given that we're not metric, the tiny kmh numbers are most welcome. I keep my dash brightness adjusted fairly low. Have you adjusted yours?

LOL, I had to check the manual to find the brightness control. The icon wasn't intuitive to me; still isn't.

gee35coupe

I even sat in the back when we test drove it. And we still bought it. I think you'll love the SI for the uses you say you need it for. I hope you decide to give one of the lonely little cars a home.

Just to answer some of your questions before you have them.

The tires may have flat spots on em. Give em a few miles they'll smooth right out.

Keep an eye on your oil level during break-in. It may burn a quart or two.

Break it in gently. You have forever to drive it hard and it will thank you.

The engine loosens up considerably after about 1500 miles. And after the first oil change (at 7500 for us) there is a night and day difference.

It makes real funny sounds when it's first started in the cold.

rivertown

The Si sounds perfect for Stickguy, doesn't it? He'll even have a little fun running when no one's looking.

napapacoda

Riv: This car should not be compared in used prices to the 99-00 SI as those never sold anywhere near 15k brand new. Sure you think Honda is old reliable and will keep a high resale value, its not how much KBB says its worth, its now how much you can actually have someone pay you for it. It can especially seen in this instance as the 99-2000 SI is a very desirable car (as you could tell by the many thefts). Unfortunately this car does not appeal to the general public in addition to the fact that its stick shift so about 85-90% of the public is not looking to purchase it as it is. This will make selling the car extremely difficult, no matter what type of economy it is. I remember a relative took like a month and had to drop his price significantly on a 1997 gsr because no one wanted the stick shift, and this was almost three years ago. My car is over stated in price by over a thousand and mines a 4 year old used EX. Even with the drop in price compared to edmunds tmv, I cannot find a buyer. Reasons why you ask? 2 mainly. Firstly, the obvious, the economy sucks and its the winter so no one wants to buy a car in the Northeast. Second, new cars are selling at invoice and below overall in addition to low to 0 percent financing, making it more affordable to purchase a new car than used with higher aprs.