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Comments
My point was that 1 year's designation ('02 vs. '03 Si) was worth more like 1k than the 2K+ you valued it. I think 2K+ is true only if one's color preference for blue is strong enough to justify an additional $500-$1500.
If you think the '03 designation is worth 2K+ over the '02 designation, color preference aside, as you so adamently opine, how about offering some facts in support of your opinion.
It's truly no skin off my nose if you wanna pay 2K+ more for an '03. The best facts I can find suggest that the increased resale value is only about 1/2 of what you've posited. If 'blue' is worth about $1000 to you, very cool; that's what it appears to cost. It still looks dumb to me pay 2K+ more for an '03, unless, of course, you're real hot for 'blue'.
You hardly wear the belt?? Well, my inseam is 30 and sleeve 33 (actually it is more like 32). So our position is quite similar I think though an 1" here and there might make a big difference. Just want to see if it is hard to reach back for the belt. That's it.
On the dim lighting, actually I have my cluster brightness at max now. I can read everything at night but during the dusk/dawn time when my headlights are on and cluster brightness at max, I can't read the numbers. The km/h is completely washed out and even the big MPH numbers tend to washed out too.
On the premium of $2k for a 2003 over 2002, well, you and I will probably take the 2002 over the 2003. At the time when I bought it, 2003 was $1k more than 2002. I'm sure when come time to sell, I can make up the $1k but I chose not to get the 2003 since I wanted to spend as little as possible and I put 18k/year driving to work. W/ so many miles in 3-4 years, I know I can't ask for a high price anyway. So my buyer will be one who is looking for a real cheap car on top of a cheap car. Easier to sell
Oh yeah, 2003 has 3 document things over 2002. New wave laser cut key (not sure if it is similar to the Audi keys that I'm familiar with), green heat rejecting glass and a blue color. We've no idea what other changes Honda made to the car which I'm sure they did to improve the car further. Personally I didn't like the blue. I think the shade is slightly darker than 99/00 Si blue. It looks great in photos but when I actually saw it, I didn't like it. But then this is subjective. So, if napapacoda really likes the blue, but hate white, silver, black, yellow on the remaining 2002s, he can choose to pay extra for 2003 when. He gets the color he wants and gets the extras that comes w/ the car and slightly higher resale value.
Keep in mind we can't take Chicago prices at $15k and compare to what he can get for 2003 at $17k. It could very well be his best price at where he is is $16k for 2002 and $17k for 2003. I'm just throwing numbers out there.
Scooter:
I think you were referring to me. I don't drive 90-100 in Detroit area. But I don't spend a lot of time at 60 either. My jaunt of 90-100 was when I was on my road trip. Most of the time, I spend 75-80 on Detroit metro freeways.
The sound in my car seem to be coming from the same area too but I can't isolate it as to the exact spot. Kinda hard to do when you are trying to drive at the same time. It doesn't matter if I'm driving on crappy Detroit roads or not, coz' even on smooth roads, the rattling is there and it's very annoying. You still get your rattle??
Oh yeah, I'm gonna try to dim the cluster too which I'm sure will help since if my headlights are off during dusk/dawn time, I can see clearly. I would hate to have to turn it back up again when it is night time. Unless I can live w/ the dim lighting too at night.
I never saw the blue '03; so, 'twasn't a factor since I didn't like the pics of the blue one. On the coupe, on the other hand, blue was 'all that', head and shoulders over black and red - to me. If I actually see a blue '03, that could all change, LOL. Anyhow, I can see paying more for an '03 - for the resale, for the glass , and maybe for blue if the '03 blue is as much cooler as '99 blue was. A 2K bump, though, seems too much - to me - even for that. I think this will be moot before long, as the '02 glut passes.
I'll be interested to see what Honda does with the Si. For the 'enthusiast', I think the prob amounts to differences in power characteristics and suspension. In general, I think the prob is over supply in a WEAK market. The HB and tranny factors, I think, are minimal. FWIW and though it would take an industrial spy to confirm it, I think we've been buying '02's at close to production cost; the dealers are screaming they're taking a 2K loss with every '02 Si sale, and I think that's hooey. Anyhow, I think something will change with margins this thin. An EX hatch with available slushbox and split bench seat wouldn't be tough to design or reach from the current Si and would keep those UK factories working.
On the other hand, I would like to see something that offers more power. A bump of 20HP or so won't hurt. They could offer a sports package like they are doing on the Civic EX Coupe. But hopefully it doesn't cost $4k like what they are charging for that package.
That will see the end, though, of 16-17K Si's. Some of it hinges on how committed Honda is to that UK plant, I think.
for 2003s, they are $100 over invoice, so $17,922 (plus 1.9% financing if you qualify). Hard to tell when a 2003 will become a 15-16K car, but I imagine you could walk off with one (if they have a goodly supply) for about 17.5K right now, although still a lot of new car for just under 18K.
Still have to try it out to see if it could serve as my daily driver, or if I need to stick with something bigger.
Good idea about adding an EX hatch, and a Si-R type of package to please everyone.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Drive it yet?
Unfortunately, the e-mail was sent last week. So, I'm not sure if you'll get it. The certs are protected via a 24digit char/num. So, in essense one cannot just change a number and produce a legitimate number. It ties in to your e-mail.
But hey, if you are not looking to buy yet, you might be able to get other free offers in the future
Prompted me to play with the lights. Try this: Turn off headlights at night with the engine running and see what happens with the odo and radio.
BTW, I wasn't complaining about the gauge faces. I was simply reporting and explaining. I actually like the instrument panel set up and design. By adjusting the brightness, I can not only set it up for the light conditions but also 'filter out' info I don't want, like the km/h. The downside is that gauges wash out for 5-10 min during particularly rosey dusks and dawns.
“In anycase, tonight after freezing myself in the garage trying to figure out the source of the rattling sound I'm getting in the car...”
Ham, it’s a long shot given how long you’ve been searching for your rattles, but maybe I have the answer for at least one of your rattles.
We, too, had an annoying rattle that we could not locate when out on a drive shortly after buying our new Si. I heard it in one place, she heard it in an entirely different place, and we just could not pinpoint it. After an hour or so, I found it.
It was the sun visor!
Sure didn’t sound like it was coming from there. But that was it. Snap your sun visors firmly into their holders, and see if the rattle disappears.
Those high frequency sounds bounce around the car --- with all that glass to reflect the sound --- making “direction finding” nearly impossible. It makes you crazy, doesn’t it?
And, Ham, I’d like to tell you that we, too, find the Brit-built Honda Si build quality to be less than our previous four Hondas. But I’d anticipated that when contemplating this purchase, and I just reckoned that would be the dues we might have to pay to enjoy an otherwise remarkable machine.
The Honda problems are more on the nuisance level rather than major, such as I understand plague the Ford Focus, for example. Some of the Ford’s problems are very serious. The thing shuts off the engine while motoring down the interstate (cured by now, I hope). We had that happen on a previous Ford, a Probe GT (ignition system design defect), as well as a VW GTI (fuel system design defect, as I recall), and it’s not good. On both occasions that it happened to me, it was in heavy commuter traffic at speeds of 75+ mph. I was in the left lane each time when my engine shut down unexpectedly. One of those times I had a concrete wall on my left --- no shoulder --- and a wall of cars on my right. Things get busy real fast. I was unhappy. I don’t recommend the experience.
Anyway...
We love this 2002 Si, albeit not unreservedly. One of the most fun cars we’ve ever had... on balance.
Instrument panel lighting deficiencies, and other inherent design concerns might be shared with Honda Corporation. Your criticisms seem reasonable. Perhaps, you might write to them, and then share their response with us?
And if you do elect to write to Honda, would you please ask them about my pet Civic peeve: Why do they repeatedly make Civics that will not naturally track straight on a straight and flat road at normal driving speeds? This new Si is the worst yet with its numb on-center steering feel. I have to _steer_ the thing in a straight line. They all do that, with OEM tires, anyway. (Our ’99 Si was “transformed” with new 3-season performance tires in that respect.) Our Mazda Protege5 is superb at normal/legal speeds. The Honda 2002 Si doesn’t “come into its own” until 85 mph and up. It likes 90 mph and more. But there are few places left in America, apart from the interstates, where one can indulge in such speeds without jeopardizing other’s safety. And besides, I’d rather not try explaining to a judge that our Si is much more comfortable, directional stability much better, at 95 mph than 55 mph. I’m an old fart, and the judge isn’t likely to be amused, despite my seriousness! I’ve never been in the pokey, and I’m not eager to go.
Finally, Ham, I wonder if I might ask a favor of you? Could you possibly cease sniping at Anony in your posts? I understand you two have your differences. I enjoy both yours and Anony’s posts. You both have useful contributions to make.
The sniping, though... it’s unpleasant, you know? Speaking only for myself, I’d be grateful if you’d stop. I think Anony deserves more respect --- she’s earned it. She’s not looking for trouble, just enjoying her new Si and sharing that pleasure. (I _am_ concerned about her apparent defection to their new Accord, though Very confusing. ;-)
What do you think, Ham? We live in an increasingly uncivil world. What do you say we strive to make this forum a little more --- rather than less --- pleasant? Sound do-able? :-)
-Kauai215 (who knows he’s not the moderator, and apologizes if he has stepped on her toes! :-)
Ended up taking a quick drive (mostly back roads). Seemed to have plenty of pep, without having to wind out the engine. A bit noisier than my Maxima (no duh there), but not bad. Mostly just had to get used to a 4 cyl. again. Comffy seats, although they are a little on the firm side. Real nice steering feel (and love the steering wheel). Even felt good having the rally shifter, very natural.
One thing I did notice is that it tended to wander a bit (I had to keep making small corrections). COuld be the road and/or mis-inflated tires, but was that a common complaint from others on the thread?
Anyway, I was favorably impressed with the overall package. Could easily see it being my daily driver, with room for 2 kids and hatchback practicality, and fun to drive to boot.
Now just have to decide if it is worth it to trade up to newer wheels, and if the dealer will come up with a blow-out price (been offered $17,800 on an '03, and $16,800 on an '02, but I don't like black and thats all that is left. Now, if they offered the silver one I drove for the price of the '02...
Did seem to have a good suply (must have had 8-10 '03s, so not likely they will run out anytime soon). Even the salesguy admitted they don't sell many of them.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I thought, too, the wandering was an issue on the test drive. Part of that is valid; holding a line at lower speeds isn't a strong point. Mine was 'ready' for pick-up with a low tire, slow leak from an inventory stcker 'tween the tire and the wheel; so, tire pressure could be part, too. I've had mine a month and 1K miles, and I seem to have adjusted.
Your dealer's getting a good bit for the '02. I paid 15,950 a month ago. On '03's, the best quote I got was 17.8, with no bargaining since I was set on an '02.
So far i have the firm price from a local dealer in CT, $15,500 with 6 cd changer, and $500 over edmunds on the trade. I think i am going with that price. If anyone is interested in the $15,000 Si, it is in northern jersey, give me a holler and i will give you the sales guy name and the dealership. they only have a silver and white. the white was a demo, silver had 46 miles on it. $15K at 1.9% is a really not a bad price. i paid more for my 99 ex coupe in 99.
they also have a black ex coupe with 5 spd, that they are willing to negotiate on.
stickguy: There was a bit of wandering when we first got the car but after checking the tire pressure and adjusting it the car settled down. Our 03 Accord was the same way. Dealers and tire shops always seem to overinflate them.
MUCH better!
Anony's reporting '02's advertized in the Atlanta area for 15.5K, and they've been selling as low 15K.
DO NOT PAY $17 000 for 2002, I was offered 2003 for $15,800. this is the buyer's market. the best part is that there were people that paid $20k for the Si, so the resale will be great. i hope that the resale on the 2002-03 hatchbacks is as good as the resale values on the 99-2000 si coupes. i think hond only sold 10 000 si hatchbacks in 2002. i have not seen one on the road yet. saw a few of them upstate ny, all were driven by middle aged women, is that a trend?
i actually considered the ford focus zx3, but the price bites, once you add the sunroof, abs, power package, cruise control. who would pay $16K (no rebates, just 0% APR) for a focus when you can get si loaded for $15K and 1.9 apr. and much better anticipated resale.
although focus SVT has better numbers, i would not pay $20K for a ford focus.
Now, I could be completely wrong but if I am I'm sure the host will correct me.
I'd say anything below 16K for an '02 or 17K for an '03 is a good deal.
As far as the $15.8 for 2003, they wold not include the 6 cd changer. once my negotiations are done, i will post their name and contact person if anyone is interested.
my advice to car shoppers, get a list of dealerships in your area, and e-mail or fax qoute requests. it is given you will get some ridiculously high offers, just e-mail them back with the number you are comfortable with, and see what they say.
I got better prices on ym own than carsdirect.com or costco's car program. in fact costco's car buying program gave me the highest price.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Am I right in thinking the CD changer deal and the 1.9% financing are Honda sponsored sales incentives good only on '02's?
Are the prices mentioned (below 17K) for an '03 actually offers, no trade offset? I believe invoice is 17.8ish, so thats way below.
My local dealers have very little left in '02s, and not a color I care for, so if I got one an '03 is more likely. Only actual price I have so far is 17.9 ($100 over invoice).
Now, if a real ad pops up with a brand new '03 for 16.xx, that might be too good to pass up.
IMHO, a big part of the reason that the Si isn't selling well is the price. 19.5K is just too high for a Civic hatchback, especially one that is geared toward a young buyer (although it seems from this board most of the actual owners are more "mature" than gen X or Y or Z or whatever we are up to now).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Might have to think about this one. A new Si in the 15s does sound pretty good.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
as far as not taking the $15.8 offer, they would not include the cd changer. $800 translated into $15-$20 more a month. I want the lowest payment as possible. my goal was $250.
in the end, the trade-in's are as negotiable as the selling prices.
Someone spoke about getting 2003 si for $100 over invoice. the 2003 should be $1000 under invoice to let the dealer make $1000 proft off of it. honda is throwing, what is known "funny money", into the field. honda is subsidizing the Si's, even the 2003. for some reason edmunds and no one else is showing that. the dealer mentioned "special program", but would not reveal what it was. he said the program is more "special" for the 2002 than 2003, but nonethless, there is a manufacturer to dealer incentive on the 2003's as well. what it means to us, higher resale that what would have been with an open rebate.
fslaugts, TN TTL on my '02 was $1350.00. If that's close to FL TTL, you offered $15,150; and the dealer countered with $16,450. Maybe, ya'll are lowballing-hiballing each other. I bet ya he'd take 15.7K; that's what, 2K, under invoice?
For a note of $250/month, I think you need a purchase price of less than 15K. That's assuming your trade is worth at least TTL and you get the 1.9%.
Cause that all that anyone is talking about in this thread.
Suggested Topic: Petitioning Honda of America for the real 200hp Civic SI
P.S. There are plenty of non-price related posts if you page back a page or so.
Or I'll just keep my fast and reliable GTI 1.8t