Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

Same price in the end really.

Ireland was nice. Tipping not required, and shelf prices included tax

ab348

The other thing about tipping was that it used to be "the customary 10%" as was the phrase back 30 years ago. Then it crept up to 15% and just last week in a resto the payment device handed to me had choices of 15%, 18%, 20% or my own figure I could enter manually. It's really getting up there, especially here where there is already a sales tax of 15% added to the prices you saw on the menu when the bill is presented. So that $30 steak is closer to $40 by the time you pay.

dino001

fintail said:

Kind of reminds me how listed prices of an item on a shelf in Europe always include tax, but here, tax is a "gotcha" added at the register.

If minimum wage had kept up with CPI/inflation indices since the zenith of the middle class in ~1968, there might be more of a European style tipping culture. I think the 15-20% "rule" is something that has really became a rule in the past 30 or so years, as things have trickled down.

dino001 said:

I hate concept of tipping, as it is done in the US. I tip, because it's expected and because the so-called employer doesn't pay his people properly. I should not be the one to decide on compensation of the employee. When the restaurateur puts his menu out saying the meal is 20 dollars, he is essentially lying.

I feel like that percentage "rule" keeps creeping up. Now you see those payment terminals at restaurants or taxi cabs (or websites) to prompt you with a tip with a choice of a number, where 18 percent is a minimum number, going to 20, to 25. Moreover, the tip used to be based on value prior tax - no more. Now it's based on value with tax. I was recently turned off in Panera Bread - they now have a "would you like to leave a tip? Yes/No" button at their registers (that's before they even hand the food to you). I refuse to be morally blackmailed - consistently press no.

dino001

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

ab348

dino001 said:

I was recently turned off in Panera Bread - they now have a "would you like to leave a tip? Yes/No" button at their registers (that's before they even hand the food to you). I refuse to be morally blackmailed - consistently press no.

That is a sore point with me too, where you are receiving only counter service yet they ask for or imply a tip requirement.

dino001

BTW, tax is my exception to objections on price disclosure. It's actually good to know how my The Man taxes you. European governments became masters in hiding taxation levels from their people. Including VAT in the shelf price is one way of doing it. You sometimes will only know how much VAT you paid if you request a special "VAT Invoice" (used by businesses for their tax payments and refunds), it may, or may not be disclosed on a regular store receipt.

graphicguy

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Is this really a 1974 Pontiac GTO? I remember them to be built on a midsize body but this looks like a Chevy Nova.

yup. They did the GTO on that body for a couple of years (the Pheonix? The Nova clone). I actually really like them. Bring that green one down here and I would take it in a nano sec.

Here you go:

https://albany.craigslist.org/ctd/6206495053.html

Rare indeed, but neutered. IIRC, that had a 350 4bbl but only had 200 HP and "janky" smog equipment.

bwia

driver100 said:

I was paying for a dinner with family in a restaurant in Victoria B.C. At the last minute I was checking the before tax price so I could add 20% to the bill for the tip. Then I just noticed at the last minute the restaurant had added in a 15% tax. They lose on several counts and I won't go back, the food wasn't great, they didn't mention they added in a tip and I almost tipped on top of their tip, they added a 15% tip and I would have given 20%.

Sometimes we go out to a restaurant with friends who are older and I don't know if they would leave a 20% tip. It seems that a 10% tip is so ingrained into them, that they just couldn't bring themselves to leave 15 or 20%.

@driver, that 15% was not a tip, it was a mandatory gratuity or a service fee. On the other hand a tip is "to insure promptness" or to show appreciation for attentive service, good food, cleanliness and nice atmosphere.

Consider the following case:

In the United States, you can potentially be arrested for refusing to pay a mandatory “tip” as happened to Humberto A. Taveras when he dined at the Soprano’s Italian American Grill in New York.  He failed to leave sufficient funds to cover the mandatory tip of 18%, instead leaving a tip of 10% (the original bill was $77.43).  Taveras stated that his group didn’t feel the food was very good, so he didn’t feel like leaving a large tip.  This 8% discrepancy resulted in the owners of said restaurant, Joe and Tina Soprano, calling the police and having Taveras arrested and charged with “theft of service”.  On principle, Taveras went ahead and hired a lawyer, rather than just pay the discrepancy and fines and fought the charge.  He won without going to court as the District Attorney threw out the case stating that tips can never truly be mandatory, regardless of posted signs in a restaurant or restaurant policy. (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/09/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-tip-as-in-leaving-a-tip/)

fintail

Definitely. It is becoming a thing for takeout now, like you mention. I very seldom do that, unless at a mom and pop place where the cooks have a tip jar, as they do a good job. I have a co-worker who tips for take out at chain restaurants - even when not on the company card. I shake my head at her. Just more evidence of a need for wage reform, I suppose.

dino001 said:

I feel like that percentage "rule" keeps creeping up. Now you see those payment terminals at restaurants or taxi cabs (or websites) to prompt you with a tip with a choice of a number, where 18 percent is a minimum number, going to 20, to 25. Moreover, the tip used to be based on value prior tax - no more. Now it's based on value with tax. I was recently turned off in Panera Bread - they now have a "would you like to leave a tip? Yes/No" button at their registers (that's before they even hand the food to you). I refuse to be morally blackmailed - consistently press no.

thebean

bwia said:

I was paying for a dinner with family in a restaurant in Victoria B.C. At the last minute I was checking the before tax price so I could add 20% to the bill for the tip. Then I just noticed at the last minute the restaurant had added in a 15% tax. They lose on several counts and I won't go back, the food wasn't great, they didn't mention they added in a tip and I almost tipped on top of their tip, they added a 15% tip and I would have given 20%.

Sometimes we go out to a restaurant with friends who are older and I don't know if they would leave a 20% tip. It seems that a 10% tip is so ingrained into them, that they just couldn't bring themselves to leave 15 or 20%.

@driver, that 15% was not a tip, it was a mandatory gratuity or a service fee. On the other hand a tip is "to insure promptness" or to show appreciation for attentive service, good food, cleanliness and nice atmosphere.

Consider the following case:

In the United States, you can potentially be arrested for refusing to pay a mandatory “tip” as happened to Humberto A. Taveras when he dined at the Soprano’s Italian American Grill in New York.  He failed to leave sufficient funds to cover the mandatory tip of 18%, instead leaving a tip of 10% (the original bill was $77.43).  Taveras stated that his group didn’t feel the food was very good, so he didn’t feel like leaving a large tip.  This 8% discrepancy resulted in the owners of said restaurant, Joe and Tina Soprano, calling the police and having Taveras arrested and charged with “theft of service”.  On principle, Taveras went ahead and hired a lawyer, rather than just pay the discrepancy and fines and fought the charge.  He won without going to court as the District Attorney threw out the case stating that tips can never truly be mandatory, regardless of posted signs in a restaurant or restaurant policy. (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/09/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-tip-as-in-leaving-a-tip/)

I'm pretty sure I would never argue at a restaurant called "Soprano's".  

dino001

bwia said:

driver100 said:

I was paying for a dinner with family in a restaurant in Victoria B.C. At the last minute I was checking the before tax price so I could add 20% to the bill for the tip. Then I just noticed at the last minute the restaurant had added in a 15% tax. They lose on several counts and I won't go back, the food wasn't great, they didn't mention they added in a tip and I almost tipped on top of their tip, they added a 15% tip and I would have given 20%.

Sometimes we go out to a restaurant with friends who are older and I don't know if they would leave a 20% tip. It seems that a 10% tip is so ingrained into them, that they just couldn't bring themselves to leave 15 or 20%.

@driver, that 15% was not a tip, it was a mandatory gratuity or a service fee. On the other hand a tip is "to insure promptness" or to show appreciation for attentive service, good food, cleanliness and nice atmosphere.

Consider the following case:

In the United States, you can potentially be arrested for refusing to pay a mandatory “tip” as happened to Humberto A. Taveras when he dined at the Soprano’s Italian American Grill in New York.  He failed to leave sufficient funds to cover the mandatory tip of 18%, instead leaving a tip of 10% (the original bill was $77.43).  Taveras stated that his group didn’t feel the food was very good, so he didn’t feel like leaving a large tip.  This 8% discrepancy resulted in the owners of said restaurant, Joe and Tina Soprano, calling the police and having Taveras arrested and charged with “theft of service”.  On principle, Taveras went ahead and hired a lawyer, rather than just pay the discrepancy and fines and fought the charge.  He won without going to court as the District Attorney threw out the case stating that tips can never truly be mandatory, regardless of posted signs in a restaurant or restaurant policy. (http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/09/what-is-the-origin-of-the-word-tip-as-in-leaving-a-tip/)

Classic case of somebody wanting to have it both ways - post low price but say it's not as low as it's posted. To have audacity to call it a "theft" is beyond the pale. One thing makes me suspicious is "Soprano's". Seriously? Are you sure it's not an April's Fool article? BTW, service fee is more honest than "voluntary gratuity", but it's just another "dealer's fee" rather than honest pricing. Those things always bother me. If something is mandatory then how come you advertise "starting from" with value not including this. Just like they made airlines advertise full price (including all charges, surcharges and taxes), they should make it the law for other goods and services and get that "additional service charge" nonsense out. Price is the price is the price. I wish, anyway.

abacomike

Speaking of tipping angsts and vague concepts, I always have a problem in trying to come up with a fair and reasonable tip when I am out for dinner in a nice restaurant. An example of my ignorance on the subject of proper etiquette when tipping, here is what happened this past Monday evening when my older daughter and her male acquaintance (can't describe him any other way since they live 1500 miles apart) met me at the Steakhouse for dinner:

We were seated in a nice booth and were assigned a waiter that I have often used when I eat there. We started out with a double shrimp cocktail (for the 3 of us). My daughter had sea scallops for her main course, her acquaintance had a 10 oz fillet mignon, as did I, and as side dishes, we had asparagus and sautéed mushrooms w/garlic au jus. For dessert, we had two large bowls of fresh blueberries to share and the waiter brought whipped cream for the two of them to have with their blueberries. They also each had two glasses of house cabernet with dinner and I had two glasses of iced tea. The tab came to $320. I gave the waiter a credit card and left him a $60.00 tip. I had waited for someone to offer to pick up the tip, but I could have waited until purgatory froze over for that to happen.

I figured it out merely by giving a 20% tip, give or take a buck or two. When I related the episode to my brother, he said he subtracts the cost of alcoholic beverages and then multiplies by 20%. So, here's the dilemma - should the tip include the cost of drinks (both hard and soft) or is my brother correct in deducting the cost of the drinks before arriving at a 20% tip?

By the way, my brother laughed his derriere off when I mentioned that I waited for someone to offer to pick up the tip - he said when he takes his kids out for dinner, he gets the same response - no one offers anything. I guess that's what fathers are for - paying the whole tab all the time whether it's for college, summer camp or eating out in restaurants.

dino001

abacomike said:

By the way, my brother laughed his derriere off when I mentioned that I waited for someone to offer to pick up the tip - he said when he takes his kids out for dinner, he gets the same response - no one offers anything. I guess that's what fathers are for - paying the whole tab all the time whether it's for college, summer camp or eating out in restaurants.

If you had taught them their whole life that daddy takes care of everything, then how do you expect them suddenly to figure it out?

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

Michaell

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

dino001

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

Yes, $600. I would not have to for Volvo - that's a manufacturer-to-consumer transaction at a fixed price. BMW is a dealer-to-consumer, just like US stock delivery. Same rules apply. BTW, I just learned the secret of the discount on ED's MSRP - it's the holdback that's taken away from the dealer, which makes sense, as there is no inventory and marketing cost on the sold unit on the dealer's side, but narrows the spread. That's why they're are so much less prone to discount it any further and getting 2 grand off that price on 4-series is a decent deal - not blockbuster, but OK. Feeds the dealer a saves some money to the the customer. Of course I had to give back the $600, so it's really $1400 off.

abacomike

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

By the way, my brother laughed his derriere off when I mentioned that I waited for someone to offer to pick up the tip - he said when he takes his kids out for dinner, he gets the same response - no one offers anything. I guess that's what fathers are for - paying the whole tab all the time whether it's for college, summer camp or eating out in restaurants.

If you had taught them their whole life that daddy takes care of everything, then how do you expect them suddenly to figure it out?

I hate to admit this, dino, but you are right!!!

dino001

abacomike said:

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

By the way, my brother laughed his derriere off when I mentioned that I waited for someone to offer to pick up the tip - he said when he takes his kids out for dinner, he gets the same response - no one offers anything. I guess that's what fathers are for - paying the whole tab all the time whether it's for college, summer camp or eating out in restaurants.

If you had taught them their whole life that daddy takes care of everything, then how do you expect them suddenly to figure it out?

I hate to admit this, dino, but you are right!!!

I had a funny thing with my mom a few years ago. I was visiting my parents there in Poland and I was shopping for tea to bring it back to the US (black loose leaf tea is there so cheap, I just can't resists - it also offers better variety than here, especially in the South, where all people know is this terrible Lipton Brisk). So we are together in a store and she pulls the wallet out and wants to pay for that tea. Mind you I make multiple times of what she does, but she insists. What can I do?

pensfan83

Until I joined these forums I had no idea how much fees, taxation on leases, and in general how nuanced car sales were from state to state. When I found out PA added a 3% surcharge for auto leases I grumbled, but I suppose that's not as bad as getting hit with a huge doc fee or having the entire purchase price of the vehicle taxed on a lease.

abacomike

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

Most dealer fees here in the southern part of the State of Florida are around $699.00 - I always have to pay the dealer fee on the invoice but in reality, since I provide my dealer with an "Out-The-Door-Price" when I make an offer, the dealer fee is moot, in my opinion. What I mean by "moot" is that it doesn't matter. In order to come up with an offer on the new car, I first determine what invoice is by researching on several sites. Next, I subtract the trade value of my trade-in vehicle. I then add to that figure the payoff balance on my loan, if any. Finally, I add 6% sales tax to the difference between trade value and invoice of the car and then deduct any USAA discounts - usually between $2500 and $3500. I also add about $150 for State Title Fees and other miscellaneous fees. I then present the final figure to the manager. It's a take-it or leave-it offer. I have rarely had to negotiate more than 20 minutes. Remember, there is still trunk money and incentives I am unaware of and/or holdback where the dealer can earn a profit. Also, profit can be made on my trade if they can find a buyer for a high end trade.

Remember, in the State of Florida, if there is a dealer fee, it must be "pre-printed" on the bill of sale form(s) because the fee must be paid by everyone. But, in reality, that fee can be backed out of the net cost of the car and then re-added when the bill of sale is completed.

It's just a game we have to play - at least a game that knowledgeable buyers have to play. Ignorant or uninformed buyers don't play that game because they are unaware of how to play.

nyccarguy

Tipping - I always tip 20% of the bill including the tax and cost of alcoholic beverages.  Unless the service is awful, then I will leave less.

When I go out to dinner with my parents, they ALWAYS pay.  They'd almost get insulted if I offer to pay or split the bill, but I do work for them.  So who am I to argue with my boss?

With my inlaws, I always offer to split the check in my favor since there are 5 of us and 2 of them.  If they pickup the check, I always insist on leaving the tip.

Once a few years ago my wife bought a Groupon or Living Social for this restaurant we liked.  It included dinner off a Prix Fix menu and an autographed copy of a cook book from the chef.  I left a 20% tip on the total cost of the meal, not the discounted Groupon price.  As we are getting up to leave, the waitress asks if everything was ok.  We said yes!  Everything was delicious.  She then had the balls to ask us why we didn't tip her more.

Turns out she wanted a tip based on the full value of the meal PLUS the copy of the chef's cookbook.  No way sweetheart!  My wife and I left and haven't been back since.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

By the way, my brother laughed his derriere off when I mentioned that I waited for someone to offer to pick up the tip - he said when he takes his kids out for dinner, he gets the same response - no one offers anything. I guess that's what fathers are for - paying the whole tab all the time whether it's for college, summer camp or eating out in restaurants.

If you had taught them their whole life that daddy takes care of everything, then how do you expect them suddenly to figure it out?

I hate to admit this, dino, but you are right!!!

I had a funny thing with my mom a few years ago. I was visiting my parents there in Poland and I was shopping for tea to bring it back to the US (black loose leaf tea is there so cheap, I just can't resists - it also offers better variety than here, especially in the South, where all people know is this terrible Lipton Brisk). So we are together in a store and she pulls the wallet out and wants to pay for that tea. Mind you I make multiple times of what she does, but she insists. What can I do?

Shut up and let mom take care of you.

Some day you'll know why that's important to her.

thebean

@nyccarguy, that's a pretty brazen waitress. She should have been very happy with the 20% on the meal. Unless she printed the cookbook in her basement, she had no right to expect a tip on its value . Some people are so entitled that they make me ill.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

Yes, $600. I would not have to for Volvo - that's a manufacturer-to-consumer transaction at a fixed price. BMW is a dealer-to-consumer, just like US stock delivery. Same rules apply. BTW, I just learned the secret of the discount on ED's MSRP - it's the holdback that's taken away from the dealer, which makes sense, as there is no inventory and marketing cost on the sold unit on the dealer's side, but narrows the spread. That's why they're are so much less prone to discount it any further and getting 2 grand off that price on 4-series is a decent deal - not blockbuster, but OK. Feeds the dealer a saves some money to the the customer. Of course I had to give back the $600, so it's really $1400 off.

This may have been asked and answered before but why don't people just drive one state over to buy a car? At $1000 in Fl. vs $75 in NY I could see taking a road trip.

graphicguy

Tipping....my late Father subscribed to the theory it was not his responsibility to pay waitstaff for their services. He owned his own business and believed it was the responsibility of any buinsess owner to pay a fair wage. Couldn't disagree with him, but reality was very different than theory in his case.

Anyway, he'd always leave a dollar, regardless of the size of the check. If he only had coffee, he'd leave a nickel.

When dining with him, I'd either offer to pick up the check, or if he insisted on paying (which wasn't often, LOL), as he left the table, I'd leave a proper tip. He caught me doing so one time and was livid....saying I was undermining his wishes. Never did it again. Then again, he didn't dine repeatedly in the same restaurants, except for Bob Evans (family style restaurant chain in the U.S. Mid-West). Servers were loath to wait on him (except when I would stick a $ 5-er in their palm after he ate the "Senior Special").

I really don't like re-living the Cadillac experience, where things just never seemed to work the way they should. I was driving the TLX in the pouring rain last night. The wipers came on, no input from me, no chatter, no "gee, these wipers don't do a very good job", they just worked. The thought crossed my mind that it was nice to be driving a car where everything works the way it's supposed to. Simple thing, but something I've learned to appreciate, recently.

thebean

I really don't like to tip, so we don't eat at full service restaurants much. But when we do, we tip 15-25% of the total bill. I would not want to have to earn a living as a waitperson. They deserve a good tip if they do a good job. I seldom tip at counter-type places, unless (as someone noted earlier) it is a mom/pop place with staff I have come to know and like.

I would just as soon the places raise the prices and pay a living wage.

pensfan83

20% is usually my standard unless the service, not the kitchen, was awful. A nearby restaurant we frequent every Friday evening for HH takes care of us very well though...a free martini for the wife, a free craft beer for me are thrown in almost every week. They'll even comp small plates (we usually just do appetizers but sometimes augment with salad or soup) so I generally tip around 50% of the total bill.

And when dining with my parents I can forget about paying anything...they insist on picking up the check no matter the amount/venue. I've learned to just roll with it and not say anything.

Michaell

pensfan83 said:

Until I joined these forums I had no idea how much fees, taxation on leases, and in general how nuanced car sales were from state to state. When I found out PA added a 3% surcharge for auto leases I grumbled, but I suppose that's not as bad as getting hit with a huge doc fee or having the entire purchase price of the vehicle taxed on a lease.

It is very regional.

TX, MD, VA and GA tax the entire selling price of the vehicle, on a lease.

As you've noted, PA has a 3% sales tax surcharge for leases.

If you are lucky enough to live in Chicago, you really get hammered - you pay sales tax at the state level on the sum of the lease payments, then the city charges a full sales tax on the monthly payment. Total tax bite is something like 17%

Dealer fees - also vary from state to state. FL is the worst - we've seen fees as high as $899 or $999. CA caps it at $80, NY at $75, OH at $250. Around $500 here in CO.

No sales tax in NH or OR.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

Yes, $600. I would not have to for Volvo - that's a manufacturer-to-consumer transaction at a fixed price. BMW is a dealer-to-consumer, just like US stock delivery. Same rules apply. BTW, I just learned the secret of the discount on ED's MSRP - it's the holdback that's taken away from the dealer, which makes sense, as there is no inventory and marketing cost on the sold unit on the dealer's side, but narrows the spread. That's why they're are so much less prone to discount it any further and getting 2 grand off that price on 4-series is a decent deal - not blockbuster, but OK. Feeds the dealer a saves some money to the the customer. Of course I had to give back the $600, so it's really $1400 off.

This may have been asked and answered before but why don't people just drive one state over to buy a car? At $1000 in Fl. vs $75 in NY I could see taking a road trip.

In Florida, it may be several states, as most surrounding states have similar rules (or lack thereof) regarding fees.
So now you're talking flying/driving 1500-2000 miles to save on a fee, while large inventory (better choice) is in Florida. As I mentioned, ED is a special thing with somewhat different rules and smaller pricing spread overall. Taking a stock delivery is different and will likely work itself back to "normal" pricing, where you'd get a bigger "discount" on a price, but bigger fee will offset OTD price to likely same level, as you'd likely pay in a low-fee state. All those fees do is allow for screamer ads to suggest much lower prices than in reality, especially when combined with fine print "3000 cash or trade equity" required to get the "screamer price".

Mr_Shiftright

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

Isn't about 25% of the FL population Canadian snowbirds who don't tip? :@

driver100 said:

Yeh, I got more in common with the people in Florida than I do in Quebec, except we both like to get out of the cold in winter.

25% is probably about right......I think Florida would be in a lot of trouble without Canadian Snowbirds, might even need a state tax!
Tipping, I tip the same whether I am in Canada or the U.S. usually 20%.
One factor is restaurant workers are paid a lot less in the US than they are in Canada, so tips are more critical. If it is a problem restaurants should add in a tip, or pay staff more.
Canadians are lousy tippers may be true, or it may be an urban myth, I only know I would leave 20% tip unless service or the food was really bad.

I think you're on to something there. When our governor gave all waitstaff workers a 50% raise out of the pockets of their employers last year tip income dropped. Customers figured that since they were now so flush they didn't need big tips. Perhaps your fellow countrymen aren't as astute as you in knowing the wage difference.

My buddy who's a bartender says that the increased wage was netted out by the drop in tips but now his state and federal withholding is higher so he actually lost money.

Our worst ever Ontario government is raising the minimum wage from $11.40 an hour to $15 an hour over two years. Businesses will have to raise costs or get rid of staff. Raising the minimum to $15 is fine, but it should be done gradually. A 30% hike in payroll, equates to a 20% increase at one day care. Restaurants will have to cut staff to stay profitable. Easy for politicians to give away money, when it is the business person paying the taxes that has to come up with ways to survive.

Not raising minimum wage just shifts the responsibility of survival onto the social services net and off the backs of the businesses. It's a direct subsidy to business. Many minimum wage earners aren't kids--they have families.

So you'll either pay $10 for that hamburger, or you'll pay more taxes for social services. Can't win unless maybe you eat at a hamburger joint that the employees own themselves.

abacomike

graphicguy said:

Tipping....my late Father subscribed to the theory it was not his responsibility to pay waitstaff for their services. He owned his own business and believed it was the responsibility of any buinsess owner to pay a fair wage. Couldn't disagree with him, but reality was very different than theory in his case.

Anyway, he'd always leave a dollar, regardless of the size of the check. If he only had coffee, he'd leave a nickel.

When dining with him, I'd either offer to pick up the check, or if he insisted on paying (which wasn't often, LOL), as he left the table, I'd leave a proper tip. He caught me doing so one time and was livid....saying I was undermining his wishes. Never did it again. Then again, he didn't dine repeatedly in the same restaurants, except for Bob Evans (family style restaurant chain in the U.S. Mid-West). Servers were loath to wait on him (except when I would stick a $ 5-er in their palm after he ate the "Senior Special").

I really don't like re-living the Cadillac experience, where things just never seemed to work the way they should. I was driving the TLX in the pouring rain last night. The wipers came on, no input from me, no chatter, no "gee, these wipers don't do a very good job", they just worked. The thought crossed my mind that it was nice to be driving a car where everything works the way it's supposed to. Simple thing, but something I've learned to appreciate, recently.

I got a chuckle out of your post, GG, because my Dad, rest his soul, was a penny-pinching tipper.  I used to get upset with him when he would leave a $10 tip for a $200 tab.  After his eyesight got pretty bad due to macular degeneration, I stopped arguing with him about his poor tipping and just slipped the waiter or waitress another $10 to $20.

In the last 2 years of his life, I would pick up the tab and leave an appropriate tip because I was no longer contributing to the household upkeep.  I took him for dinner once each week for steak at NYY Steakhouse instead.  He would always ask me how much the tab was and how much of a tip I was giving the waiter.  Since he was legally blind, I just lied about the tab and the tip.  He was a happy camper for those last 2 years.  Still miss him a whole bunch! 

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

Isn't about 25% of the FL population Canadian snowbirds who don't tip? :@

driver100 said:

Yeh, I got more in common with the people in Florida than I do in Quebec, except we both like to get out of the cold in winter.

25% is probably about right......I think Florida would be in a lot of trouble without Canadian Snowbirds, might even need a state tax!
Tipping, I tip the same whether I am in Canada or the U.S. usually 20%.
One factor is restaurant workers are paid a lot less in the US than they are in Canada, so tips are more critical. If it is a problem restaurants should add in a tip, or pay staff more.
Canadians are lousy tippers may be true, or it may be an urban myth, I only know I would leave 20% tip unless service or the food was really bad.

I think you're on to something there. When our governor gave all waitstaff workers a 50% raise out of the pockets of their employers last year tip income dropped. Customers figured that since they were now so flush they didn't need big tips. Perhaps your fellow countrymen aren't as astute as you in knowing the wage difference.

My buddy who's a bartender says that the increased wage was netted out by the drop in tips but now his state and federal withholding is higher so he actually lost money.

Our worst ever Ontario government is raising the minimum wage from $11.40 an hour to $15 an hour over two years. Businesses will have to raise costs or get rid of staff. Raising the minimum to $15 is fine, but it should be done gradually. A 30% hike in payroll, equates to a 20% increase at one day care. Restaurants will have to cut staff to stay profitable. Easy for politicians to give away money, when it is the business person paying the taxes that has to come up with ways to survive.

Not raising minimum wage just shifts the responsibility of survival onto the social services net and off the backs of the businesses. It's a direct subsidy to business. Many minimum wage earners aren't kids--they have families.

So you'll either pay $10 for that hamburger, or you'll pay more taxes for social services. Can't win unless maybe you eat at a hamburger joint that the employees own themselves.

Those things are surely complicated. Artificially high price for low-value service is bad for obvious reasons. Non-living wage for large segments of populations is bad for obvious reasons. Contrary to what leading parties would like you believe, it's not easy to solve those things.

dino001

So the picture you guys are painting is, it looks there is an escalation of tip expectations as a percentage of the bill, which tells me the owners slowly and consistently take a stance they don't have to pay their "employees" anything and they are only responsible to set up a "hunting grounds" for them.

ab348

Up here, the local rep for the Restaurant Association lobby group has been going on for years about how the govt should have a lower minimum wage legislated for occupations where tipping is part of the deal. So wait staff wouldn't make minimum wage plus tips, but some lower "special" below-minimum wage plus tips. It seems rather odious.

Michaell

ab348 said:

Up here, the local rep for the Restaurant Association lobby group has been going on for years about how the govt should have a lower minimum wage legislated for occupations where tipping is part of the deal. So wait staff wouldn't make minimum wage plus tips, but some lower "special" below-minimum wage plus tips. It seems rather odious.

Many states in the US have that policy.

Here in CO, the minimum wage is $9.30. However, for employees who are tipped (like I was when I was delivering pizzas), the minimum wage is $6.28.

Here is a good article on the subject:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_the_United_States

(also includes a table that shows the state level information, as well)

cdnpinhead

oldfarmer50 said:

This may have been asked and answered before but why don't people just drive one state over to buy a car? At $1000 in Fl. vs $75 in NY I could see taking a road trip.

Precisely, then you have the opportunity to get used to the new vehicle on something besides city streets.

nyccarguy

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

Yes, $600. I would not have to for Volvo - that's a manufacturer-to-consumer transaction at a fixed price. BMW is a dealer-to-consumer, just like US stock delivery. Same rules apply. BTW, I just learned the secret of the discount on ED's MSRP - it's the holdback that's taken away from the dealer, which makes sense, as there is no inventory and marketing cost on the sold unit on the dealer's side, but narrows the spread. That's why they're are so much less prone to discount it any further and getting 2 grand off that price on 4-series is a decent deal - not blockbuster, but OK. Feeds the dealer a saves some money to the the customer. Of course I had to give back the $600, so it's really $1400 off.

This may have been asked and answered before but why don't people just drive one state over to buy a car? At $1000 in Fl. vs $75 in NY I could see taking a road trip.

It isn't that easy. Florida has big doc fees, but neighboring Georgia isn't much better. I live in CT, where our dealers charge "conveyance fees" of $199 - $499, so I usually car shop in NY which has $75 doc fees.

thebean

ab348 said:

Up here, the local rep for the Restaurant Association lobby group has been going on for years about how the govt should have a lower minimum wage legislated for occupations where tipping is part of the deal. So wait staff wouldn't make minimum wage plus tips, but some lower "special" below-minimum wage plus tips. It seems rather odious.

I'd be in favor of a maximum wage for all lobbyists. Something on the order of $2.00/hr and no benefits. Since they serve no purpose at all, this seems to be a fair wage.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

@dino001 - there are some restaurants here in Denver that have abolished tipping, but have increased menu prices to compensate.

That's how it should be. Calculate the price and tell me what it is. I can take it. "Plus tip" is not a price, it's a "starter". Sort of my other non-favorite, dealer fee on the car.

So the doc fee on a car is really a "tip" of $600 for them waiting on you.

Seems that way, doesn't it? BTW, unlike the restaurants, it seems the magnitude is inversely proportional to the price of the vehicle itself. Luxury brands here charge usually a bit smaller fees, while popular brands, especially Asian provenience, are just pushing (or crossed already) $1000.

I'm astounded at the size of the dealer fees in Florida.

Did you have to pay it for your recent ED purchase?

Yes, $600. I would not have to for Volvo - that's a manufacturer-to-consumer transaction at a fixed price. BMW is a dealer-to-consumer, just like US stock delivery. Same rules apply. BTW, I just learned the secret of the discount on ED's MSRP - it's the holdback that's taken away from the dealer, which makes sense, as there is no inventory and marketing cost on the sold unit on the dealer's side, but narrows the spread. That's why they're are so much less prone to discount it any further and getting 2 grand off that price on 4-series is a decent deal - not blockbuster, but OK. Feeds the dealer a saves some money to the the customer. Of course I had to give back the $600, so it's really $1400 off.

This may have been asked and answered before but why don't people just drive one state over to buy a car? At $1000 in Fl. vs $75 in NY I could see taking a road trip.

In Florida, it may be several states, as most surrounding states have similar rules (or lack thereof) regarding fees.
So now you're talking flying/driving 1500-2000 miles to save on a fee, while large inventory (better choice) is in Florida. As I mentioned, ED is a special thing with somewhat different rules and smaller pricing spread overall. Taking a stock delivery is different and will likely work itself back to "normal" pricing, where you'd get a bigger "discount" on a price, but bigger fee will offset OTD price to likely same level, as you'd likely pay in a low-fee state. All those fees do is allow for screamer ads to suggest much lower prices than in reality, especially when combined with fine print "3000 cash or trade equity" required to get the "screamer price".

I figured as much. Everybody pays in the end. We're like lambs to the slaughter.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

Isn't about 25% of the FL population Canadian snowbirds who don't tip? :@

driver100 said:

Yeh, I got more in common with the people in Florida than I do in Quebec, except we both like to get out of the cold in winter.

25% is probably about right......I think Florida would be in a lot of trouble without Canadian Snowbirds, might even need a state tax!
Tipping, I tip the same whether I am in Canada or the U.S. usually 20%.
One factor is restaurant workers are paid a lot less in the US than they are in Canada, so tips are more critical. If it is a problem restaurants should add in a tip, or pay staff more.
Canadians are lousy tippers may be true, or it may be an urban myth, I only know I would leave 20% tip unless service or the food was really bad.

I think you're on to something there. When our governor gave all waitstaff workers a 50% raise out of the pockets of their employers last year tip income dropped. Customers figured that since they were now so flush they didn't need big tips. Perhaps your fellow countrymen aren't as astute as you in knowing the wage difference.

My buddy who's a bartender says that the increased wage was netted out by the drop in tips but now his state and federal withholding is higher so he actually lost money.

Our worst ever Ontario government is raising the minimum wage from $11.40 an hour to $15 an hour over two years. Businesses will have to raise costs or get rid of staff. Raising the minimum to $15 is fine, but it should be done gradually. A 30% hike in payroll, equates to a 20% increase at one day care. Restaurants will have to cut staff to stay profitable. Easy for politicians to give away money, when it is the business person paying the taxes that has to come up with ways to survive.

Not raising minimum wage just shifts the responsibility of survival onto the social services net and off the backs of the businesses. It's a direct subsidy to business. Many minimum wage earners aren't kids--they have families.

So you'll either pay $10 for that hamburger, or you'll pay more taxes for social services. Can't win unless maybe you eat at a hamburger joint that the employees own themselves.

Those things are surely complicated. Artificially high price for low-value service is bad for obvious reasons. Non-living wage for large segments of populations is bad for obvious reasons. Contrary to what leading parties would like you believe, it's not easy to solve those things.

It's even more complicated than we think. $10 burgers combined with layoff for the working poor is probably the worst outcome. I'm not a total laissez-faire capitalist but it seems when you mess with the laws of supply and demand things go sideways.

http://www.seattletimes.com/business/uw-study-finds-seattles-minimum-wage-is-costing-jobs/

fintail

Of course, Another study finds the opposite - something something lies and statistics

Just tie minimum wage to what it was in 1968, linked to CPI/inflation numbers. Good enough for the ones who came before, should be good now, right?

cdnpinhead

When the minimum wage goes up, the unions love it because many of their wage calculations are related to it. Do you ever wonder why there is so much support, in the form of rent-a-mobs, for this sort of thing.

Either way, a $15/hr minimum wage simply accelerates the use of robotic technology. Hide and watch.

It's not just the minimum-wage people who are affected. If the dishwasher gets a $2/hr raise (for this year -- it'll go up next year and the year after that), then then next people in the ladder want a raise as well, as do the ones above. The net is that these places will raise their prices, use more robotics, or go out of business. The so-called entry-level employees will suffer.

But the unions will have gotten what they wanted. Oh boy.

laurasdada

Hello, Laurasdada here. Perhaps you remember me from such cars as '09 Jag XK or '13 Jag XF...

No offense intended, and I will grant the quality and reliability heritage of the British auto industry. But, from the outside looking in, to me it is ironic that folks that are currently driving GM products are leery of Jag's reliability!

Full disclosure, after 3+ years of no issues, the "Keyless Vehicle Module" did retire on me earlier this year putting the Jag offline for a bit. But, props to Jaguar and my local dealer (i.e. Warranty!) for no out of pocket costs and loaner Land Rovers for that time (and why do they always give the loaner F-Type to the client just prior to me! Same at Acura, the loaner NSX always went to the prior service customer!). XK only had one issue, and it was a recall that the prior owner obviously did not take care of. And wasn't a show stopper. But, soon I will be out of warranty on the XF...

Wonder if the new XF wagon will gain any traction here in Los Estados Unidos?

nyccarguy

cdnpinhead said:

When the minimum wage goes up, the unions love it because many of their wage calculations are related to it. Do you ever wonder why there is so much support, in the form of rent-a-mobs, for this sort of thing.

Either way, a $15/hr minimum wage simply accelerates the use of robotic technology. Hide and watch.

It's not just the minimum-wage people who are affected. If the dishwasher gets a $2/hr raise (for this year -- it'll go up next year and the year after that), then then next people in the ladder want a raise as well, as do the ones above. The net is that these places will raise their prices, use more robotics, or go out of business. The so-called entry-level employees will suffer.

But the unions will have gotten what they wanted. Oh boy.

They keep raising minimum wage here in NYC. I have a guy who works for me I employ (work is too strong of a word) that makes more than MW, so every time MW gets a bump, he gets a raise. I used to have him come in early and have him work every Saturday (for OT). MW raised. We've been slow, so I cut his OT out and only have him working coming in every other Saturday.

dino001

Talking tipping... Uber just rolled out tipping on their app. Lyft already has it. These things were supposed to be "the price you see is one you get". That was part of the sale. You press the button, is says the price is x, done. It lasted, what three years?

Everybody does everything to obscure the real price from you and make you believe you'll pay less - then they extend their hand saying it wasn't enough. Then they make it structural, by cutting wages, benefits of those who are in front of you and actually make you feel guilty about it. They're not guilty of paying s..t to people, you are. You wanted low price. We gave you "low price", but not really. We got paid, but the poor sap in front of you - well, that's your business. What's next? Paying a tip at supermarket's register, cause the cashier didn't get paid yet? Remember, our prices are low..., so low we don't pay people who do this for you? Or perhaps there will be an envelope to send one to a tomato farmer, too, as he didn't get paid yet, either?

I simply can't stand it.

28firefighter

Interesting talk on tipping. My default is 20% unless someone really screws up. While I'd rather pay higher prices and have it included, I don't see the practice going away anytime soon. 

Going out out with my parents or in-laws, I'll make an attempt to pay but they never allow it. Same with offering to pay tip. But I believe in making the gesture anyway. 

It it looks like having blood work done was a mixed bag in terms of being a good idea, but it's landed me at the hospital for a 48 hour visit while they work me up. I feel like I'm in jail. 

graphicguy

laurasdada said:

Hello, Laurasdada here. Perhaps you remember me from such cars as '09 Jag XK or '13 Jag XF...

No offense intended, and I will grant the quality and reliability heritage of the British auto industry. But, from the outside looking in, to me it is ironic that folks that are currently driving GM products are leery of Jag's reliability!

Full disclosure, after 3+ years of no issues, the "Keyless Vehicle Module" did retire on me earlier this year putting the Jag offline for a bit. But, props to Jaguar and my local dealer (i.e. Warranty!) for no out of pocket costs and loaner Land Rovers for that time (and why do they always give the loaner F-Type to the client just prior to me! Same at Acura, the loaner NSX always went to the prior service customer!). XK only had one issue, and it was a recall that the prior owner obviously did not take care of. And wasn't a show stopper. But, soon I will be out of warranty on the XF...

Wonder if the new XF wagon will gain any traction here in Los Estados Unidos?

LD....I think once TaTa finaly allowed Jaguar to "do their thing", the products became better. My sister had a Ford era Jag, and loved it (S-Type). She drove it 100K miles and gave it to her son. He drove it another 50K miles. Neither of them had anything go wrong and only completed routine maintenance. He traded it for one of those new Civic coupes some around here deride. I road in it. The new Civic is a really good car. I like it.

Anyway, if it hadn't been for the local dealer's sales person who pulled a "bait and switch" on me to get me into the showroom, I probably would have forgone a lot of my Cadillac fiasco and had a Jag in the garage right now.

My sister ended up getting a C300 to replace the S-Type and every few months begins to toss around the idea of another Jag.

So, you'll hear no denigration from me about Jags. You're proof that not only do they make beautiful cars, they're reliable, too.

dino001

My understanding is Jaguars were mixed bag. Some models had very solid reliability and Jaguar also made some goodwill efforts when things did not go well, like significantly extending warranties on some components that did not perform to expectations. I think they diluted the brand when introduced X-type - not necessarily a bad idea, but fairly underwhelming execution. From what I read, Ford-era S-type and its Lincoln LS half-brother were most underappreciated/underrated vehicles - very solid, just did not catch the attention of magazine writers and customers alike. I think it was pre-Ford Jags that had disastrous "British-style" reliability, legacy from clashes with near-communist militant unions in 70s and 80s, when sometimes they'd bolt things backwards on purpose and could not recover from that mindset for years.

I think current crop of Jags looks very sharp and I heard they are good reliability, too. I was recently joking that I just found my next car (i.e. one after this 430 GC I just picked up) in the new $70k+ XF-wagon (supercharged six-cylinder). It looks fantastic.

stickguy

I think Jag also went big on the no cost ownership plan. Long warranty with all service included. I will take a look at the XE (that's the small one, right?) in the fall, but not holding out hope that the lease offer will make sense, unless they are sitting on a bunch of 2017s to blow out the door in November.