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  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    Cold-blooded creatures. Sort of nature's equivalent of an air-cooled engine.
    I learned all this from my Iguanas for Dummies book. :p As many of you may have surmised, I'm part reptile myself. I love hot weather. 100-105 is nothing to me. My seat heaters are always turned up to 11.
    Had my heated seats on this morning - nice feeling.  I only have 3 setting.  I also turn on my seat ventilation to blow the warmed air up my body whil I turn on the massage.  Kinky, huh!

    I lived in Palm Desert for 7 years and never complained about the dry heat in the summers - 105-110 degrees every day.  But if it was humid, one could perish!  :o

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342




    I think you're on to something! Shame on me! How a BMW could tell that I had committed a mortal sin by buying a bulb at NAPA instead of at the dealer I'll never know! It took the car a few hours to figure out it had been violated!
    I know that I’ve explained this before, but that issue has absolutely nothing to with whether the bulbs are OEM; the problem is the TYPE of bulb. European manufacturers use bulbs with a silver base instead of a brass base. BMW at that time had designed the bulb check system to monitor bulbs by sending a very low current to the bulbs to detect continuity. The copper bases corroded and or had too high of a resistance. BMW has yet to learn that US drivers never read the OM and will try to use the cheapest generic part whenever possible. 

    Except, a person shouldn't HAVE to read an Owner's Manual to determine which light bulb to use so, yeah, I'm guilty! I didn't read my manual. Also, I didn't try to buy the "cheapest generic part" I could find! I decided not to drive ten miles to the BMW dealer and, (shame on me) I figured a quality light bulb from a NAPA store would work just fine as they have done in EVERY other car I have ever owned!I don't know if the NAPA bulb had a copper base or not but I DO know that one day of usage wouldn't have been enough time for it to corrode!

    Face it, BMW's are wonderful cars in many ways but they are also fussy cars that love to drain wallets in ways other cars don't!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356

    ab348 said:

    Cold-blooded creatures. Sort of nature's equivalent of an air-cooled engine.

    I learned all this from my Iguanas for Dummies book. :p

    As many of you may have surmised, I'm part reptile myself. I love hot weather. 100-105 is nothing to me. My seat heaters are always turned up to 11.
    If you ever offed anyone you would get the chair because it would be in cold blood !

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 5,217
    15"-18" snow in my hood. Temps dropping into single digits, below 0 tonight/tomorrow. Roads were fine for the drive to work this morning. Cut our run a bit short (3 miles) at noon as we were thinking a bit about frostbite. It's New England in winter. It's cold and snows. Why is that such a shock and panic to some folks?!

    Jag has been good in the snow, love my heated seats and steering wheel. And, the car heats up relatively quickly. No problem driving even with only 4/32 this morning. Hoping Continental has a rebate/gift card promotion soon!

    Son is in Aspen to ski during his winter college break (because it's good to be the Prince), he said not enough snow, but they expect a storm tomorrow.

    Auto show next week, no Jag/BMW/MB listed as exhibitors. Bummer, was hoping Jag would be there with E-Pace. I'm still not an SUV guy, but maybe I'll compare XE and E-Pace later in the year. Nice to have the extra bit of utility of a CUV sometimes and if it drives well, maybe my mind can be changed.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    houdini1 said:

    qbrozen said:


    houdini1 said:

    ab348 said:

    suydam said:

    That happened to us many many years ago with a Plymouth (remember them) minivan. Stopped dead crossing a train track. Five years old. We had just had the car serviced. Neither Chrysler nor the dealership would admit to any problem. Turns out they knew their belts were wearing prematurely and had a silent dealer notice to replace them. End of buying Chrysler vehicles for me.

    Did that Plymouth minivan come equipped with a Mitsubishi engine as many of them did?
    There must be some connection between Chrysler and Mitsu. I remember my older brother bought a Chrysler Co. Lancer back in the early 1960s.

    There was. They shared many things. A version of the Sebring coupe had a mitsu engine. There was also the Dodge Colt that was a rebadged...some kinda crappy low-end mitsu I can't remember the name of. Not sure what mitsu got from chryco, if anything other than money for parts.
    Now I also remember those two twin sportcars, 90s?, one mitsu and one Chryco. I remember they always looked very wide to my eye. Can't remember the names though. EDIT- Dodge Stealth and Mitsu GT 3000. Google is my friend.






    I remember the Dodge Stealth and Mitsu 3000 GT. Cool-looking cars! Desireable to me at the time when I didn't care about reliability and thought man-kind had already figured out how to make a reliable car already (my parents purchased Hondas and Toyotas).

    Yes, I know some of the quality problems were deliberate, but some were incompetence too!

    http://www.autonotebook.com/the-12-reasons-to-hate-chrysler-cars/

    Can anyone figure out how to read the other 11 reasons? I'm dying to read them.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    abacomike said:



    ab348 said:

    Cold-blooded creatures. Sort of nature's equivalent of an air-cooled engine.

    I learned all this from my Iguanas for Dummies book. :p

    As many of you may have surmised, I'm part reptile myself. I love hot weather. 100-105 is nothing to me. My seat heaters are always turned up to 11.

    Had my heated seats on this morning - nice feeling.  I only have 3 setting.  I also turn on my seat ventilation to blow the warmed air up my body whil I turn on the massage.  Kinky, huh!

    I lived in Palm Desert for 7 years and never complained about the dry heat in the summers - 105-110 degrees every day.  But if it was humid, one could perish!  :o

    You should have put those comatose iguanas on your heated car seats to warm them up.

    Shame on you!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,963
    I read this from another website claimed to be written from a 20-year 1988-2008 Chrysler Engineer (I particularly like his idea of forcing executives to drive 5-year old Neons! I enjoyed some of the insights into a company that thought it was having a heyday in the 90's, while their customers were at rock-bottom during the same time period:

    I had a 20 year engineering career at Chrysler starting in 1988. I rose to Manager level, and due to the unique position that I was in, was often in meetings with VP’s, and on occasion, the COO and CEO. I was in large Product Executive Committee meetings in the 14th floor boardroom and in the Design Dome on multiple occasions. I got to see and do a lot of really cool things, and got to experience how top management worked through decisions. I loved my time at Chrysler. Chrysler gave its engineers a lot of responsibility and autonomy, which fit my style perfectly.

    That said, Chrysler had a lot of problems in the late 1980′s/early 90′s. Iacocca had become distracted with outside projects (particularly the Statue of Liberty restoration) and had fallen asleep at the wheel of product development. I was completely appalled at the state of the product line up (and new products under development) when I started there in late 1988. Almost the entire product line was K-car based and complete crap. I could write several long articles about the sad state of vehicle engineering back then. It was so bad in some areas that I thought people were pulling my leg when certain things were explained to me. One quick example: I started out as a design Engineer in seat hardware. When I asked the Design leader to provide a set of blueprints (really “sepias”) of the seat adjuster mechanisms that I was now responsible for, I received a set of prints without a single dimension on them. I asked “"what's this, there are no dimensions?” Ans: “"they're EMD’s” So I ask “"What's an EMD?” Ans: “"Engineering Master Drawing”. “What’s that?” Ans: “For dimensions, you scale the print”. I really thought they were pulling a joke on me at this point, but they weren’t. I could write a whole chapter just on this one ridiculous issue, but suffice to say that 3 different people scaling a drawing (literally placing a scale on the print to get dimensions) are going to arrive at three different dimensions on a part that is a relatively precise mechanism (or should be)!

    So I quickly became a change agent in my department and eventually got proper Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerancing (GD&T) applied to my drawings (with much resistance from the design leader).

    Chrysler made a big leap in the mid 90′s with the LH platform, Ram Truck, Grand Cherokee, and 3rd Gen Minivan, and finally started putting better development processes in place. The decision to build an all new technical center under one roof in Auburn Hills was a very good one (Iacocca’s last good decision) and was tremendously helpful in moving the company forward during the 90′s. Bob Lutz, Tom Stallcamp, and Francois Castaing were very hard chargers who really pushed the organization forward during this time. Iacocca’s decision to hire Bob Eaton instead of Lutz as his successor was a huge disappointment for most of us. Lutz, Stallcamp and Castaing were the kind of leaders that removed roadblocks to progress. Once they left or were ousted, this took a 180 and it almost seemed like it became a sport for the executives to place roadblocks in order to gauge how effectively their teams could overcome them. Chrysler culture took a big turn for the worse after the Daimler sell out. There had been a tremendous esprit de corps built during the 90′s. It was a great and exciting time to be a Chrysler employee.

    The sell out to Daimler was a terrible betrayal in the eyes of many long time Chrysler employees (our $11B rainy day fund went *poof*), and only got worse with the sale to Cerberus. Bob Nardelli, the new CEO who came from Home Depot really had no idea what he was doing, knew zero about the auto industry, and product development in the 2007–2009 timeframe kept getting delayed, with the focus on cost reduction. Fast forward to today and Chrysler has made nice strides in design (especially interiors), but still suffers with mediocre processes, quality and virtually no real research.

    One problem with the “"Big 3” is lack of diversity of thought and experience (not of gender or race). Chrysler is (and always has been) too “"Detroit centric” in its thinking. Behavior Based Structured Interviewing and all-day psychological testing became the norm for hiring new employees, which was highly successful in hiring automatons, and yes men with virtually zero professional accomplishments. You could literally go through several interviews not once being asked about what you produced in your career. It was maddening. Many executive level people are born and raised Detroiters. One quick example: As lead program manager on the 2007 Jeep Compass, I could not convince my Manager, the Product Planning Director and Vehicle Development Manager to mold a coin holder into the center console. It could have been done at zero cost. It's as if they'd never been on a toll road or drive through (there are no toll roads in the Detroit area).

    I used to frequently say “"The quickest way to improve quality in this company is to force every executive to drive a 5 year old Dodge Neon as their company car.” They all get a new car every year so have no idea what it's like for the typical owner who drives an older car. At least one executive (Jamie Bonini, who later went to run the Tritec Motors plant then left for Toyota Georgetown) was either listening (I believe that I mentioned this idea to him on a flight to the UK when he sat next to me and grilled me for the full 8 hour flight) or of the same mind, as he instituted a Neon vehicle buyback of 100,000 mile cars and had them disassembled and inspected in order to incorporate the learnings on the 1.6L engine that I was responsible to develop. This effort really paid off.

    Today, FCA does some things very well, but is still plagued by “loose” development processes, a lack of real research, and below average quality.

    It's exceedingly difficult to break into new technology effectively (such as EV’s, PHEV’s Fuel cells, etc) when you do almost no basic research. Chrysler has a history of taking half baked ideas and new design/engineering concepts and putting them on a production timeline. Sometimes this works, but more often than not, leads to unsurmountable problems, program cancellations and quality issues. So this problem must be fixed for FCA to have a viable long term future.

    Quality must be greatly improved. The high mileage vehicle buyback never went beyond the 1.6l engine program AFAIK and that's something that I’d do with every carline. The highly biased focus on “"J D Power initial quality survey” is very misguided, IMO. FCA has very high warranty costs as a result and low customer loyalty.

    Internal development processes are also woefully lacking in some areas, such as vehicle software development. FCA would be wise to benchmark some of their own suppliers and others who have much more discipline in this area. They (like most OEM’s) hold their suppliers to much more rigid quality and development standards than they do their own manufacturing plants and Engineering teams. For example, they will not source business to a supplier that is not certified to the ISO/TS-16949 standard, yet they have no internal requirement to do so in their own facilities, or to even informally meet the requirements of the standard sans official certification. This not only results in poor development and manufacturing processes, but sends a “"do as I say, but not as I do” message to their own suppliers. This is not unique to FCA, but changing this approach would be a big leap forward for them. I hope that they'll have the gumption to change this.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594




    I think you're on to something! Shame on me! How a BMW could tell that I had committed a mortal sin by buying a bulb at NAPA instead of at the dealer I'll never know! It took the car a few hours to figure out it had been violated!
    I know that I’ve explained this before, but that issue has absolutely nothing to with whether the bulbs are OEM; the problem is the TYPE of bulb. European manufacturers use bulbs with a silver base instead of a brass base. BMW at that time had designed the bulb check system to monitor bulbs by sending a very low current to the bulbs to detect continuity. The copper bases corroded and or had too high of a resistance. BMW has yet to learn that US drivers never read the OM and will try to use the cheapest generic part whenever possible. 
    Except, a person shouldn't HAVE to read an Owner's Manual to determine which light bulb to use so, yeah, I'm guilty! I didn't read my manual. Also, I didn't try to buy the "cheapest generic part" I could find! I decided not to drive ten miles to the BMW dealer and, (shame on me) I figured a quality light bulb from a NAPA store would work just fine as they have done in EVERY other car I have ever owned!I don't know if the NAPA bulb had a copper base or not but I DO know that one day of usage wouldn't have been enough time for it to corrode!

    Face it, BMW's are wonderful cars in many ways but they are also fussy cars that love to drain wallets in ways other cars don't!

    If you want to play you have to pay.

    I understand it not being worth it to most people, but, sometimes there is a cost to getting something so superbly engineered, it won't work with generic off-brand pr0ducts. My smoke detectors insist on Eveready batteries.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    driver100 said:

    abacomike said:



    ab348 said:

    Cold-blooded creatures. Sort of nature's equivalent of an air-cooled engine.

    I learned all this from my Iguanas for Dummies book. :p

    As many of you may have surmised, I'm part reptile myself. I love hot weather. 100-105 is nothing to me. My seat heaters are always turned up to 11.

    Had my heated seats on this morning - nice feeling.  I only have 3 setting.  I also turn on my seat ventilation to blow the warmed air up my body whil I turn on the massage.  Kinky, huh!

    I lived in Palm Desert for 7 years and never complained about the dry heat in the summers - 105-110 degrees every day.  But if it was humid, one could perish!  :o
    You should have put those comatose iguanas on your heated car seats to warm them up.

    Shame on you!

    You aren't supposed to pick up frozen iguanas. Everybody knows that.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,355
    I don't doubt that what the Chrysler manager said was true, but I find it odd that even in the glory days with Lutz and Castaing, Chrysler's quality was pretty poor also. They have had a rep for poor quality all the way back to the late 1950s.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,355
    andres3 said:


    Can anyone figure out how to read the other 11 reasons? I'm dying to read them.

    Hmm. I can't either, and the other articles noted at the bottom of the page with a number of reasons have the same problem. Yet people in the comments are referencing things that they read which I cannot find. Very odd indeed.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    I found reviews for the Corsica which are mostly good...but some are not good like this one:
    1994 Chevrolet Corsica
    Details
    By Visitor on 4/12/10 | Cincinnati, OH
    I owned a 1994 chevy corsica. I bought it when it was only four years old. It was by far the worst car I have ever owned. I spent a fortune repairing practically everything in the engine compartment including the engine. Everyone that I know that also owned one of these cars for a while says the same thing about this car. It is a lemon. I bought a 1993 corolla after this car, its 17 years old and we are still driving it.
    Seems they did get better in newer models

    Reviews Corsica

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    driver100 said:




    I think you're on to something! Shame on me! How a BMW could tell that I had committed a mortal sin by buying a bulb at NAPA instead of at the dealer I'll never know! It took the car a few hours to figure out it had been violated!
    I know that I’ve explained this before, but that issue has absolutely nothing to with whether the bulbs are OEM; the problem is the TYPE of bulb. European manufacturers use bulbs with a silver base instead of a brass base. BMW at that time had designed the bulb check system to monitor bulbs by sending a very low current to the bulbs to detect continuity. The copper bases corroded and or had too high of a resistance. BMW has yet to learn that US drivers never read the OM and will try to use the cheapest generic part whenever possible. 
    Except, a person shouldn't HAVE to read an Owner's Manual to determine which light bulb to use so, yeah, I'm guilty! I didn't read my manual. Also, I didn't try to buy the "cheapest generic part" I could find! I decided not to drive ten miles to the BMW dealer and, (shame on me) I figured a quality light bulb from a NAPA store would work just fine as they have done in EVERY other car I have ever owned!I don't know if the NAPA bulb had a copper base or not but I DO know that one day of usage wouldn't have been enough time for it to corrode!

    Face it, BMW's are wonderful cars in many ways but they are also fussy cars that love to drain wallets in ways other cars don't!
    If you want to play you have to pay.

    I understand it not being worth it to most people, but, sometimes there is a cost to getting something so superbly engineered, it won't work with generic off-brand pr0ducts. My smoke detectors insist on Eveready batteries.

    I for one don't want to play that game. Sophistication can be taken too far. Let's hope it doesn't come to the design of toilets where you have to register your DNA to a successful flush. Believe it or not that can be done.

    Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,769
    andres3 said:


    http://www.autonotebook.com/the-12-reasons-to-hate-chrysler-cars/

    Can anyone figure out how to read the other 11 reasons? I'm dying to read them.

    Considering the editorials on their homepage are from 2014, I wouldn't count on finding the rest.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,620
    Thankfully we didn't get ice or snow, a little breezy, cold enough this morning.

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • sdasda Member Posts: 7,620

    2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech

  • abacomikeabacomike Member Posts: 12,388
    jmonroe said:

    I think you're on to something! Shame on me! How a BMW could tell that I had committed a mortal sin by buying a bulb at NAPA instead of at the dealer I'll never know! It took the car a few hours to figure out it had been violated!
    I know that I’ve explained this before, but that issue has absolutely nothing to with whether the bulbs are OEM; the problem is the TYPE of bulb. European manufacturers use bulbs with a silver base instead of a brass base. BMW at that time had designed the bulb check system to monitor bulbs by sending a very low current to the bulbs to detect continuity. The copper bases corroded and or had too high of a resistance. BMW has yet to learn that US drivers never read the OM and will try to use the cheapest generic part whenever possible. 
    Except, a person shouldn't HAVE to read an Owner's Manual to determine which light bulb to use so, yeah, I'm guilty! I didn't read my manual. Also, I didn't try to buy the "cheapest generic part" I could find! I decided not to drive ten miles to the BMW dealer and, (shame on me) I figured a quality light bulb from a NAPA store would work just fine as they have done in EVERY other car I have ever owned!I don't know if the NAPA bulb had a copper base or not but I DO know that one day of usage wouldn't have been enough time for it to corrode! Face it, BMW's are wonderful cars in many ways but they are also fussy cars that love to drain wallets in ways other cars don't!
    If you want to play you have to pay. I understand it not being worth it to most people, but, sometimes there is a cost to getting something so superbly engineered, it won't work with generic off-brand pr0ducts. My smoke detectors insist on Eveready batteries.
    I for one don't want to play that game. Sophistication can be taken too far. Let's hope it doesn't come to the design of toilets where you have to register your DNA to a successful flush. Believe it or not that can be done. Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering. jmonroe
    jmonroe - I must confess that I do not always agree with your philosophy on various and sundry topics as I am sure you feel the same toward mine - but I completely agree with your assessment regarding extreme engineering.  It has become almost commonplace that almost every contact you have with a company or service over the phone results in dealing with an automated screening program - frequently frustrating, especially when the options provided by the voice automation do not apply to what you need.

    In automobiles, the advanced computer technology has taken control of the operation of the car from emergency stops for pedestrians and cross traffic to self steering or self parking.

    To be quite honest, I long for the days of a three speed manual transmission on the steering wheel and a clutch.  But those days are gone when you truly looked forward to driving your car.  This new car I have is a delight - but the technology is overwhelming and so difficult to manage.  Ride and handling are superb - but the fun is no longer there!

    2024 Genesis G90 Super-Charger

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    I respectfully disagree Mike. You have forgotten about carburetors, distributors, brushes, chokes, flooded engines, oil changes every 3000 miles, brakes that needed resetting, tune ups every 10000 miles, spark plugs, non heated seats, roll down windows, heat bars on the rear windows, no blind spot warning, no rear camera, no tire monitors, a bar under the seat for adjusting, I wouldn't call those things fun.

    New cars are still fun and they make life more enjoyable. I don't think cars are over engineered at all, some ideas work, others don't....we have to try them.

    JMonroe doesn't appreciate great engineering so he is satisfied with a Genesis.....comes close, but, it isn't the segment leader.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 5,084
    I disagree as well. Great engineering is complex but shouldn’t seem to be. True functionality with simplicity is really difficult to do well. Honda has known that for decades but they aren’t the only ones. Everything working well and in the right place makes for happy driving!
    '24 Kia Sportage PHEV
    '24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    Honda has that down really well. They never try to be the biggest seller, they build well engineered cars that are reliable and are enjoyable to drive. They do what they do really well.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • ventureventure Member Posts: 3,175
    abacomike said:


    jmonroe said:

    driver100 said:




    I think you're on to something! Shame on me! How a BMW could tell that I had committed a mortal sin by buying a bulb at NAPA instead of at the dealer I'll never know! It took the car a few hours to figure out it had been violated!
    I know that I’ve explained this before, but that issue has absolutely nothing to with whether the bulbs are OEM; the problem is the TYPE of bulb. European manufacturers use bulbs with a silver base instead of a brass base. BMW at that time had designed the bulb check system to monitor bulbs by sending a very low current to the bulbs to detect continuity. The copper bases corroded and or had too high of a resistance. BMW has yet to learn that US drivers never read the OM and will try to use the cheapest generic part whenever possible. 
    Except, a person shouldn't HAVE to read an Owner's Manual to determine which light bulb to use so, yeah, I'm guilty! I didn't read my manual. Also, I didn't try to buy the "cheapest generic part" I could find! I decided not to drive ten miles to the BMW dealer and, (shame on me) I figured a quality light bulb from a NAPA store would work just fine as they have done in EVERY other car I have ever owned!I don't know if the NAPA bulb had a copper base or not but I DO know that one day of usage wouldn't have been enough time for it to corrode!

    Face it, BMW's are wonderful cars in many ways but they are also fussy cars that love to drain wallets in ways other cars don't!
    If you want to play you have to pay.

    I understand it not being worth it to most people, but, sometimes there is a cost to getting something so superbly engineered, it won't work with generic off-brand pr0ducts. My smoke detectors insist on Eveready batteries.
    I for one don't want to play that game. Sophistication can be taken too far. Let's hope it doesn't come to the design of toilets where you have to register your DNA to a successful flush. Believe it or not that can be done.

    Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering.

    jmonroe

    jmonroe - I must confess that I do not always agree with your philosophy on various and sundry topics as I am sure you feel the same toward mine - but I completely agree with your assessment regarding extreme engineering.  It has become almost commonplace that almost every contact you have with a company or service over the phone results in dealing with an automated screening program - frequently frustrating, especially when the options provided by the voice automation do not apply to what you need.

    In automobiles, the advanced computer technology has taken control of the operation of the car from emergency stops for pedestrians and cross traffic to self steering or self parking.

    To be quite honest, I long for the days of a three speed manual transmission on the steering wheel and a clutch.  But those days are gone when you truly looked forward to driving your car.  This new car I have is a delight - but the technology is overwhelming and so difficult to manage.  Ride and handling are superb - but the fun is no longer there!

    Newer cars are a wonder of technology, that's for sure, but I remember my old cars with a manual transmission, no power steering, etc. as well as my Corvettes from the late 60's fondly.

    I can't say I regretted or missed any of the last 5 or 6 I traded in, including my BMW. No soul.

    2025 Forester Limited, 2024 Subaru Legacy Sport

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,144
    edited January 2018
    driver100 said:

    Honda has that down really well. They never try to be the biggest seller, they build well engineered cars that are reliable and are enjoyable to drive. They do what they do really well.

    I think that’s all any of us ask. Give us what we paid for. I understand cars are complex. Any one of a million things can go wrong with them. Just look at what can go wrong in the frozen tundras and snow fall some are going through right now. We expect our vehicles to perform and work in extreme conditions, every time.

    Things can and do go wrong. Just fix them (if under warranty) in a timely manner, and we’re a happy lot.

    Honda/Acura has that recipe down. Plus, while not sports cars, per se, they do perform well in everything they do. Our recent TLX purchases, and the reviews of the new Accord bare that out. The TLX is built very well with very nice materials, too.



    I was driving to dinner last night thinking that....given it was hovering near 0º, my Acura ran well, seat heated well, heater worked well, stereo blasted well, nothing creaked or groaned, steering worked well, drivetrain drove like it was 70º outside.

    To me, the safety nannies are a recent thing. Are they good? Absolutely! Then again, 5 years ago I didn’t have any of them. Something to be said about cruising down the interstate while the car stays in its lane, keeps a safe distance to the car in front of me, warning what’s behind or to the side of me.

    When I don’t want those features, I turn them off. Easy-peezy!

    The only other brand I’ve had that provided a worry free ownership experience similar to my Honda/Acuras were my BMWs (I’ve had three of them).
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    driver100 said:

    I respectfully disagree Mike. You have forgotten about carburetors, distributors, brushes, chokes, flooded engines, oil changes every 3000 miles, brakes that needed resetting, tune ups every 10000 miles, spark plugs, non heated seats, roll down windows, heat bars on the rear windows, no blind spot warning, no rear camera, no tire monitors, a bar under the seat for adjusting, I wouldn't call those things fun.

    New cars are still fun and they make life more enjoyable. I don't think cars are over engineered at all, some ideas work, others don't....we have to try them.

    JMonroe doesn't appreciate great engineering so he is satisfied with a Genesis.....comes close, but, it isn't the segment leader.

    So, now you know enough about engineering that you know I don't appreciate "great engineering". Since that happened to be my field, I say that is a pretty poor assessment of what someone thinks they know about someone else's knowledge of engineering especially coming from a book salesman.

    One last time...I can appreciate "great engineering" since I saw it first hand from that side of the net and the best engineers didn't try to make things difficult, they tried to design things that a book salesman could appreciate, and yes maybe even be impressed by it, without being overwhelmed by it.

    Lastly, "great engineering", when it comes to cars, is not being afraid to own one when it is out of warranty.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 264,225
    driver100 said:

    Honda has that down really well. They never try to be the biggest seller, they build well engineered cars that are reliable and are enjoyable to drive. They do what they do really well.

    For a while, though, they had missed the mark on styling, though that's a more subjective concept than engineering.

    Not that all Honda were perfect, mind you. They had some transmission issues in the early 00's.

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  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    edited January 2018
    For years, starting in the 70's we bought nothing but Honda, Toyotas, Acura and an occasional Nissan. During that time I also had various GM and Ford products as company cars, and the experiences I had with those soured me on those brands.

    In the late 80's and 90's (still driving GM company cars) I bought MB and BMWs. Nice cars, but enough niggling problems that made me miss those simple Hondas.

    We bought our first Lexus in 2000, and have owned 6 more up to the present time. Lexus is not perfect, but they are pretty close, at least for us. While I am not crazy about some of their styling, the cars are great, and while I know we pay for it, their customer service is head and shoulders above anyone else we have ever dealt with. About the only serious problem we have had was fading paint on the hood of a 2003 LX. It had been out of warranty for some time, but Lexus repainted the entire vehicle at a cost of over $7500. and didn't charge us a dime. We didn't have to beg or threaten to sue, either. Very hard to leave a company like that.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,562
    I think the engineering debate is more to do with designers/engineers that forget that someone has to live with the product day to day, and at some point, might have to fix it (or do routine maintenance). So designing in simplicity is an even more elegant, and sometimes difficult, thing to do.

    coming up with an amazing technical solution might be cool, but not if it doesn't work in the field. And sometimes, it seems like the German brands stray too far down that path.

    Then you get cases where they get too creative, or make stuff too compact. And you discover that if a headlight bulb burns out, you need to dismantle most of the front end of the car and remove the radiator to replace it. Not good design, regardless of how well it functions out of the box. I recall my Volvo, to replace the cabin air filter (a 2 minute job in the Acura, with 1.5 of them taking the crap out of the glove box) required removing the brake pedal assembly to get at it. What kind of dingbat would come up with that design? probably was all proud of how tight they packaged everything in, without occurring to them that someday, you might want to change it out.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,394

    driver100 said:

    Honda has that down really well. They never try to be the biggest seller, they build well engineered cars that are reliable and are enjoyable to drive. They do what they do really well.

    I think that’s all any of us ask. Give us what we paid for. I understand cars are complex. Any one of a million things can go wrong with them. Just look at what can go wrong in the frozen tundras and snow fall some are going through right now. We expect our vehicles to perform and work in extreme conditions, every time.

    Things can and do go wrong. Just fix them (if under warranty) in a timely manner, and we’re a happy lot.

    Honda/Acura has that recipe down. Plus, while not sports cars, per se, they do perform well in everything they do. Our recent TLX purchases, and the reviews of the new Accord bare that out. The TLX is built very well with very nice materials, too.



    I was driving to dinner last night thinking that....given it was hovering near 0º, my Acura ran well, seat heated well, heater worked well, stereo blasted well, nothing creaked or groaned, steering worked well, drivetrain drove like it was 70º outside.

    To me, the safety nannies are a recent thing. Are they good? Absolutely! Then again, 5 years ago I didn’t have any of them. Something to be said about cruising down the interstate while the car stays in its lane, keeps a safe distance to the car in front of me, warning what’s behind or to the side of me.

    When I don’t want those features, I turn them off. Easy-peezy!

    The only other brand I’ve had that provided a worry free ownership experience similar to my Honda/Acuras were my BMWs (I’ve had three of them).
    I haven't found my BMWs to be that expensive to run- even past 100k miles. I ran my Mazdaspeed 3 out to 158k and post 100k miles it essentially needed a suspension rebuild- something I didn't need to do on the X3 or Club Sport. Maintaining them properly is the key.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,534
    Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity. It even impacted some of their WW2 vehicles. Sometimes that will impact your wallet :)
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,394
    fintail said:

    Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity. It even impacted some of their WW2 vehicles. Sometimes that will impact your wallet :)

    Germans also tend to design a car assuming that all recommended maintenance will be performed on time and followed to the letter. In contrast, US and Asian brands almost always assume little to no maintenance-aside from oil changes-will be performed. It's just a different mindset; I once heard a European engineer explain the difference between European drivers and American drivers:

    "European drivers don't care if the brakes squeal- just as long as they stop the car."

    "American drivers don't care if the brakes stop the car- just as long as they don't squeal."

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    fintail said:

    Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity. It even impacted some of their WW2 vehicles. Sometimes that will impact your wallet :)

    The problem with the Germans is that they don't do their homework sometimes, releasing cars with defects that really should have been caught in testing. The Japanese seem better at post-engineering shake-down.

    Take Porsche for instance. They designed a new water-cooled engine block for their 1999 996 and Boxster and decide to ditch the pressure-fed shell bearings holding the intermediate shaft and use a sealed ball-bearing instead.

    OK, that didn't work! So what do they do in the year 2000? They switch from a double-row ball bearing to.....a single row!

    OK, that was WORSE. So in 2004 or so (!!) they make the ball bearing BIGGER.

    OK, that didn't work.

    They kept the same stupid design for ten years, up to 2009, and ended up losing a class action suit and paying out big bucks.

    It took an aftermarket engineering firm to fix the problem.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,534
    That's a good one, and true. When the fintail has been sitting for a long time and is cold (or sometimes if it just wants to), the brakes squeak for the first couple stops. As long as it feels normal and actually stops, I know it's OK.

    The cars do have sometimes rigorous maintenance schedules, even the diesels need adjustment now and then. It's not like a Civrolla where you can change the oil every 7-10K, change the timing belt every 80K, and never think of anything else. The driving experience is the reward.

    Still, some MBs and BMWs have real Achilles heel issues, systems that were over-engineered, and not always in a good way. There are some models I don't have the patience for, and really wouldn't take for free unless I wanted a garage ornament - one hobby car is enough, and if I have one, I want it to be vintage.



    Germans also tend to design a car assuming that all recommended maintenance will be performed on time and followed to the letter. In contrast, US and Asian brands almost always assume little to no maintenance-aside from oil changes-will be performed. It's just a different mindset; I once heard a European engineer explain the difference between European drivers and American drivers:

    "European drivers don't care if the brakes squeal- just as long as they stop the car."

    "American drivers don't care if the brakes stop the car- just as long as they don't squeal."

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,298
    abacomike said:


    jmonroe said:

    driver100 said:




    I think you're on to something! Shame on me! How a BMW could tell that I had committed a mortal sin by buying a bulb at NAPA instead of at the dealer I'll never know! It took the car a few hours to figure out it had been violated!
    I know that I’ve explained this before, but that issue has absolutely nothing to with whether the bulbs are OEM; the problem is the TYPE of bulb. European manufacturers use bulbs with a silver base instead of a brass base. BMW at that time had designed the bulb check system to monitor bulbs by sending a very low current to the bulbs to detect continuity. The copper bases corroded and or had too high of a resistance. BMW has yet to learn that US drivers never read the OM and will try to use the cheapest generic part whenever possible. 
    Except, a person shouldn't HAVE to read an Owner's Manual to determine which light bulb to use so, yeah, I'm guilty! I didn't read my manual. Also, I didn't try to buy the "cheapest generic part" I could find! I decided not to drive ten miles to the BMW dealer and, (shame on me) I figured a quality light bulb from a NAPA store would work just fine as they have done in EVERY other car I have ever owned!I don't know if the NAPA bulb had a copper base or not but I DO know that one day of usage wouldn't have been enough time for it to corrode!

    Face it, BMW's are wonderful cars in many ways but they are also fussy cars that love to drain wallets in ways other cars don't!
    If you want to play you have to pay.

    I understand it not being worth it to most people, but, sometimes there is a cost to getting something so superbly engineered, it won't work with generic off-brand pr0ducts. My smoke detectors insist on Eveready batteries.
    I for one don't want to play that game. Sophistication can be taken too far. Let's hope it doesn't come to the design of toilets where you have to register your DNA to a successful flush. Believe it or not that can be done.

    Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering.

    jmonroe

    jmonroe - I must confess that I do not always agree with your philosophy on various and sundry topics as I am sure you feel the same toward mine - but I completely agree with your assessment regarding extreme engineering.  It has become almost commonplace that almost every contact you have with a company or service over the phone results in dealing with an automated screening program - frequently frustrating, especially when the options provided by the voice automation do not apply to what you need.

    In automobiles, the advanced computer technology has taken control of the operation of the car from emergency stops for pedestrians and cross traffic to self steering or self parking.

    To be quite honest, I long for the days of a three speed manual transmission on the steering wheel and a clutch.  But those days are gone when you truly looked forward to driving your car.  This new car I have is a delight - but the technology is overwhelming and so difficult to manage.  Ride and handling are superb - but the fun is no longer there!

    Speaking of over engineering.

    As you know I've been dipping my toe back into the world of work and having not applied for a job in almost 3 decades it's been an eye opener. All computer applications with only one exception.

    Applied to Hertz for a car transporter position and filling out the application was beyond my and even my IPad's capabilities. I had to get my son to produce a file on his computer which was compatible with Hertz's format. This was required even though the information in the file was already given elsewhere in the application.

    Some of these companies use a one size fits all third party format which requires the same complexity whether you're applying for a job as janitor or CEO.

    Some interesting cultural assumptions too. One company program insisted on more than one previous job listing even though that was from the 1980s.



    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Exactkly. Why did BMW take so bloody long to fix their cooling system failures. My god, it just went on and on.

    And Subaru? They really couldn't figure out how to keep a head gasket on an engine?

    I really do get how difficult it is to perfectly engineer a new product, and I'll give any automaker some slack for the first year or two. But to not correct issues over the span of a decade---that's just inexcusable IMO.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594
    jmonroe said:

    driver100 said:

    I respectfully disagree Mike. You have forgotten about carburetors, distributors, brushes, chokes, flooded engines, oil changes every 3000 miles, brakes that needed resetting, tune ups every 10000 miles, spark plugs, non heated seats, roll down windows, heat bars on the rear windows, no blind spot warning, no rear camera, no tire monitors, a bar under the seat for adjusting, I wouldn't call those things fun.

    New cars are still fun and they make life more enjoyable. I don't think cars are over engineered at all, some ideas work, others don't....we have to try them.

    JMonroe doesn't appreciate great engineering so he is satisfied with a Genesis.....comes close, but, it isn't the segment leader.

    So, now you know enough about engineering that you know I don't appreciate "great engineering". Since that happened to be my field, I say that is a pretty poor assessment of what someone thinks they know about someone else's knowledge of engineering especially coming from a book salesman.

    One last time...I can appreciate "great engineering" since I saw it first hand from that side of the net and the best engineers didn't try to make things difficult, they tried to design things that a book salesman could appreciate, and yes maybe even be impressed by it, without being overwhelmed by it.

    Lastly, "great engineering", when it comes to cars, is not being afraid to own one when it is out of warranty.

    jmonroe
    Your the one who said you don't need really sophisticated engineering:
    I for one don't want to play that game. Sophistication can be taken too far. Let's hope it doesn't come to the design of toilets where you have to register your DNA to a successful flush. Believe it or not that can be done.
    
    Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering.
    
    jmonroe
    Anyone can appreciate the results of great engineering, just as a book salesman might appreciate a good painting, music, a good wine, fine jewelry etc...maybe even a good Scotch.

    Buy what suits you....if you like a fine watch and can afford it buy a Rolex, if you want something good but like to spend some money buy a Seiko, Citizen, Bulova etc., and if you just want cheap and dependable buy a Timex. But, even a book salesman probably knows the difference.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594

    fintail said:

    Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity. It even impacted some of their WW2 vehicles. Sometimes that will impact your wallet :)

    "European drivers don't care if the brakes squeal- just as long as they stop the car."

    "American drivers don't care if the brakes stop the car- just as long as they don't squeal."
    That says it nicely. I found similar when buying a dishwasher....back to that topic. European brands y don't garburate the food too well - there is a screen and it has to be cleaned out if you leave chunks in there. North American makers put in garburators to mulch up any particles because the users aren't as conscientious about taking solid materials off the dishes - and over here we actually use garburators. We were shown this by a salesman that knew the differences in makes.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,769
    Exactkly. Why did BMW take so bloody long to fix their cooling system failures. My god, it just went on and on. And Subaru? They really couldn't figure out how to keep a head gasket on an engine? I really do get how difficult it is to perfectly engineer a new product, and I'll give any automaker some slack for the first year or two. But to not correct issues over the span of a decade---that's just inexcusable IMO.
    Wait... BMW fixed the cooling system? When did this happen?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2018
    As long as the finely engineered watch also keeps the right time. People who pay a lot of money for something that doesn't work get really ticked off.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594

    fintail said:

    Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity. It even impacted some of their WW2 vehicles. Sometimes that will impact your wallet :)

    The problem with the Germans is that they don't do their homework sometimes, releasing cars with defects that really should have been caught in testing. The Japanese seem better at post-engineering shake-down.

    As the president of GM once said to his executives when GM was by far #1, If you don't make enough mistakes you aren't trying enough things". It is true in business in general, unless you try something new, and make a few mistakes, you don't find the things that do work.

    German brands usually introduce the new technology, then the others jump in once it has been used and perfected. Asian car makers are good at imitating....I think the last invention they introduced was the coin holder.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,594

    As long as the finely engineered watch also keeps the right time. People who pay a lot of money for something that doesn't work get really ticked off.

    You don't hear about too many watches not keeping accurate time these days....whether they are cheap or expensive.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,562
    expensive watches are not that because they keep better time. they are jewelry, or bling.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,823
    Hey Fezo, It's been a while. Happy New Year!
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    edited January 2018
    driver100 said:

    jmonroe said:

    driver100 said:

    I respectfully disagree Mike. You have forgotten about carburetors, distributors, brushes, chokes, flooded engines, oil changes every 3000 miles, brakes that needed resetting, tune ups every 10000 miles, spark plugs, non heated seats, roll down windows, heat bars on the rear windows, no blind spot warning, no rear camera, no tire monitors, a bar under the seat for adjusting, I wouldn't call those things fun.

    New cars are still fun and they make life more enjoyable. I don't think cars are over engineered at all, some ideas work, others don't....we have to try them.

    JMonroe doesn't appreciate great engineering so he is satisfied with a Genesis.....comes close, but, it isn't the segment leader.

    So, now you know enough about engineering that you know I don't appreciate "great engineering". Since that happened to be my field, I say that is a pretty poor assessment of what someone thinks they know about someone else's knowledge of engineering especially coming from a book salesman.

    One last time...I can appreciate "great engineering" since I saw it first hand from that side of the net and the best engineers didn't try to make things difficult, they tried to design things that a book salesman could appreciate, and yes maybe even be impressed by it, without being overwhelmed by it.

    Lastly, "great engineering", when it comes to cars, is not being afraid to own one when it is out of warranty.

    jmonroe
    Your the one who said you don't need really sophisticated engineering:
    I for one don't want to play that game. Sophistication can be taken too far. Let's hope it doesn't come to the design of toilets where you have to register your DNA to a successful flush. Believe it or not that can be done.
    
    Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering.
    
    jmonroe
    Anyone can appreciate the results of great engineering, just as a book salesman might appreciate a good painting, music, a good wine, fine jewelry etc...maybe even a good Scotch.

    Buy what suits you....if you like a fine watch and can afford it buy a Rolex, if you want something good but like to spend some money buy a Seiko, Citizen, Bulova etc., and if you just want cheap and dependable buy a Timex. But, even a book salesman probably knows the difference.
    So what point were you trying to make?

    I still maintain that, "Too much engineering is not good engineering...it's just too much engineering".

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Thank you. And you have four more days (the 10th) to congratulate me for my skill at remaining 66.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    fezo said:

    Thank you. And you have four more days (the 10th) to congratulate me for my skill at remaining 66.

    Another hit-and-run poster we have to deal with this year.

    Hey mods, sleeping on the job again? I thought Edmunds forbid that in 2018 :@

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,298
    fezo said:
    Leave it to the NYT to turn the Pope's message into a political hit piece.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ka_edmundska_edmunds Member Posts: 4
    Convertible - Mustang or not to Mustang that's the question.

    Hello everyone, first time posting on Edmunds. I am looking for a convertible. Drove a couple of them - Mustang (Ecoboost and GT), an Audi as well. I feel going the Mustang way because I liked the ride, GT's engine sound was awesome but also like the EcoBoost. I am not a muscle car or a big power car guy, and also never driven a rear wheel drive. Have heard about rear wheel cars being prone to skidding/slipping. I live in Georgia so may get occasional snow and definitely rain a few times a year.
    I want a fun car but not going to take it to track or anything like that. I know the 2015+ models of Mustangs have traction control. Would like to get some input from the car enthusiasts and knowledgeable people on the forum to help me understand if I drive moderately (not too fast but not too slow either), is the Mustang safe and fun at the same time?

    Thank you.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    driver100 said:

    fintail said:

    Germans like complexity for the sake of complexity. It even impacted some of their WW2 vehicles. Sometimes that will impact your wallet :)

    The problem with the Germans is that they don't do their homework sometimes, releasing cars with defects that really should have been caught in testing. The Japanese seem better at post-engineering shake-down.

    As the president of GM once said to his executives when GM was by far #1, If you don't make enough mistakes you aren't trying enough things". It is true in business in general, unless you try something new, and make a few mistakes, you don't find the things that do work.

    German brands usually introduce the new technology, then the others jump in once it has been used and perfected. Asian car makers are good at imitating....I think the last invention they introduced was the coin holder.

    Well, now, let's be kind and not the compact pickup truck, the AWD station wagon (early 1970s I think), electronic variable valve timing (Nissan) and the modern engine balancing shaft! (Mitubishi--licensed to Saab, Fiat and (gasp) Porsche.

    But you're right, the Japanese are very good at reverse-engineering. They even re-made an entire Mercedes S Class and called it a Lexus. Did it handle and brake as well? No. Did it have the Benz driving dynamics? No.

    Did it break? No.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,394
    edited January 2018

    Convertible - Mustang or not to Mustang that's the question.

    Hello everyone, first time posting on Edmunds. I am looking for a convertible. Drove a couple of them - Mustang (Ecoboost and GT), an Audi as well. I feel going the Mustang way because I liked the ride, GT's engine sound was awesome but also like the EcoBoost. I am not a muscle car or a big power car guy, and also never driven a rear wheel drive. Have heard about rear wheel cars being prone to skidding/slipping. I live in Georgia so may get occasional snow and definitely rain a few times a year.
    I want a fun car but not going to take it to track or anything like that. I know the 2015+ models of Mustangs have traction control. Would like to get some input from the car enthusiasts and knowledgeable people on the forum to help me understand if I drive moderately (not too fast but not too slow either), is the Mustang safe and fun at the same time?

    Thank you.

    If you leave all the traction control nannies(AKA fun eradicators) engaged you would have to be a complete and utter moron to get in the slightest bit of trouble with a GT. As for weather, I'd put Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires on it and you should be able to cope with all but ice or deep snow.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

This discussion has been closed.

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