Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

imidazol97

abacomike said:

They just opened a Wawa less than 1/4 mile from me.  Place is always jammed - but I won’t buy any gasoline, no matter how cheap, that is not TopTier rated - and Wawa is not a TopTier rated brand.  But, they will compete well with Costco gas because there is no membership requirement and many people could care less about the amount and kind of detergent additives in the gasoline they put in their cars.  If your car’s engine has direct injection and you plan on keeping it for a few years or longer, they should care.

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge.

The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary.

I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while.

I asked my service manager if they had to do any special cleaning for their direct-injected engines due to low quality fuels. His answer was "No." My Malibu 2.5 is DI and I thought my Cruze that is my son's was DI when I asked.

ab348

imidazol97 said:

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge.

The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary.

I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while.

Well, I'm not sure. Some brands (Shell comes to mind here, but others do it as well) not only state at the pumps that the various grades have various different amounts/types of cleaning additives, but send that message quite explicitly in their media advertising. Up here at least, that advertising would quickly be labeled false if that was not the case and there would be consequences.

One interesting local anecdote: we had am Imperial Oil (ExxonMobil) refinery operating locally up to 4 or 5 years ago (actually we used to have 2 but the Valero Ultramar refinery closed in the early '90s) which supplied all the brands locally except one. So now we just have a tank farm where gasoline refined elsewhere is brought in by ship and then doled out to the various brands. The additive package is added at that point when the 18-wheelers are filled with the fuel for distribution. Different brands get different additive packages. Two summers ago we had a situation where stations began running out of fuel and investigation in the media revealed that a tanker of fuel was rejected at the port because of quality concerns. The ship at the time was still sitting in the harbor waiting for that to be resolved. Meanwhile another tanker was en route but would take time to arrive and be offloaded. Someone had taken just-in-time inventory a little too seriously and had screwed up. But it was somewhat comforting to know that quality control tests on the fuel stock were done before it made its way into the pipeline and into vehicles.

andres3

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

They just opened a Wawa less than 1/4 mile from me.  Place is always jammed - but I won’t buy any gasoline, no matter how cheap, that is not TopTier rated - and Wawa is not a TopTier rated brand.  But, they will compete well with Costco gas because there is no membership requirement and many people could care less about the amount and kind of detergent additives in the gasoline they put in their cars.  If your car’s engine has direct injection and you plan on keeping it for a few years or longer, they should care.

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge.

The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary.

I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while.

I asked my service manager if they had to do any special cleaning for their direct-injected engines due to low quality fuels. His answer was "No." My Malibu 2.5 is DI and I thought my Cruze that is my son's was DI when I asked.

I think this is a good job for Consumer Reports to put an end to the speculation.

They could control all variables and run several different DI car engines (but 2 of each), with the only difference being one is run on bottom-tier gas, and the other on top tier gas. Let's see which is dirtier and needs more frequent cleaning and walnut blasting. If there is no discernible difference, CR can advise it is all snake oil.

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

They just opened a Wawa less than 1/4 mile from me.  Place is always jammed - but I won’t buy any gasoline, no matter how cheap, that is not TopTier rated - and Wawa is not a TopTier rated brand.  But, they will compete well with Costco gas because there is no membership requirement and many people could care less about the amount and kind of detergent additives in the gasoline they put in their cars.  If your car’s engine has direct injection and you plan on keeping it for a few years or longer, they should care.

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge.

The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary.

I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while.

I asked my service manager if they had to do any special cleaning for their direct-injected engines due to low quality fuels. His answer was "No." My Malibu 2.5 is DI and I thought my Cruze that is my son's was DI when I asked.

I think this is a good job for Consumer Reports to put an end to the speculation.

They could control all variables and run several different DI car engines (but 2 of each), with the only difference being one is run on bottom-tier gas, and the other on top tier gas. Let's see which is dirtier and needs more frequent cleaning and walnut blasting. If there is no discernible difference, CR can advise it is all snake oil.

I'm puzzled by the use of DI engines that need expensive matainance. The local BMW store reccommends walnut blasting every 30k miles. This requires removing the heads, I understand, a $1500 service. That's just crazy.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

They just opened a Wawa less than 1/4 mile from me.  Place is always jammed - but I won’t buy any gasoline, no matter how cheap, that is not TopTier rated - and Wawa is not a TopTier rated brand.  But, they will compete well with Costco gas because there is no membership requirement and many people could care less about the amount and kind of detergent additives in the gasoline they put in their cars.  If your car’s engine has direct injection and you plan on keeping it for a few years or longer, they should care.

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge. The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary. I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while. I asked my service manager if they had to do any special cleaning for their direct-injected engines due to low quality fuels. His answer was "No." My Malibu 2.5 is DI and I thought my Cruze that is my son's was DI when I asked.

I think this is a good job for Consumer Reports to put an end to the speculation. They could control all variables and run several different DI car engines (but 2 of each), with the only difference being one is run on bottom-tier gas, and the other on top tier gas. Let's see which is dirtier and needs more frequent cleaning and walnut blasting. If there is no discernible difference, CR can advise it is all snake oil.

How about a better idea, get another independent testing company other than CR. 

driver100

According to this article, and the picture if they show up, there is a difference

I don't know who wrote the article (could be fake news), but, I initially wrote I doubt if there is that much difference, otherwise why wouldn't dealers ask you when you trade in your car, if you used TT gas.
Full article, if true, is pretty convincing;
WHY USE TT GAS

qbrozen

except, even if the above is accurate, it doesn't apply to DI engines.

dino001

There are couple of Wawa stations around in Tampa. Their premium unleaded octane number is 92 as opposed to 93 on all other stations. Why is that?

fezo

I use nothing but top tier, and even at that throw in a bottle of Techron now and again. Synthetic oil.

Of course, it's really easy for me. The nearest gas to me is Costco.

Mr_Shiftright

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers (combined)?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

I will take a guess: 76%.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

According to this article, and the picture if they show up, there is a difference

I don't know who wrote the article (could be fake news), but, I initially wrote I doubt if there is that much difference, otherwise why wouldn't dealers ask you when you trade in your car, if you used TT gas.
Full article, if true, is pretty convincing;
WHY USE TT GAS

Nothing that an Italian tune up wouldn't fix.

dino001

fezo said:

I use nothing but top tier, and even at that throw in a bottle of Techron now and again. Synthetic oil.

Of course, it's really easy for me. The nearest gas to me is Costco.

So do I. I use Costco at home and Shell or BP when traveling. Would not get anywhere close to places like Wawa, FlyingJ, or Speedway. I might use them somewhere in backcountry when driving a rental car, if the fuel gauge shows low and the place is really remote. I heard their convenience stores are good, but I generally don't touch gas station coffee or prepared hot food, anyway (would rather make another stop at a Dunkin Donuts store or a similar establishment) and packaged candy is the same everywhere.

Mr_Shiftright

ab348 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

I will take a guess: 76%.

that's ballpark. Not bad.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers (combined)?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

I'll go with 58%

fintail

I've had a couple of unrelated indy MB mechanics tell me Chevron/Techron is the best for these cars - via that, I've used Chevron whenever possible for many years. A nearby station which gives a weekend 15 cent/gallon discount for cash makes it that much better (although with rising prices, the 4% credit card reward will soon be better) - no surcharge for cards, either.

fezo said:

I use nothing but top tier, and even at that throw in a bottle of Techron now and again. Synthetic oil.

Of course, it's really easy for me. The nearest gas to me is Costco.

coldinohio

the major auto manufacturers are pushing for one grade 95 octane -- due to turbo, DI, low displacement engines... they say initially gas $$ will go up, but ultimately will say refineries money as only one grade

sorry if this is duplicate post

driver100

ab348 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

I will take a guess: 76%.

I say 74%!

I know it is 3/4's.

driver100

dino001 said:

There are couple of Wawa stations around in Tampa. Their premium unleaded octane number is 92 as opposed to 93 on all other stations. Why is that?

I suppose in Florida most driving is downhill so the lower octane still works. Just joking!

My guess, and it is an uneducated layman's guess, is cars that require premium fuel usually require 91 Octane....they may go higher in warmer states because of this factor:

The higher the octane rating, the more branched the hydrocarbon chains are, which leads to a fuel which is more stable under heat and pressure

Probably Wawa figures 92 is good enough, and adds profit to their bottom line.

28firefighter

92 is the highest I can get here in the PNW.

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers (combined)?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

I was thinking about 62%, but I guess that's low by the answers so far.

stickguy

68%

stickguy

most of our the name brand stations (old time ones) disappeared around here. quite a few no name chains now with names like US Gas. I won't go to those.

Exxon, Mobil, Shell all rare as hens teeth now. Chevron, Hess, non existent. Plenty of Citgo and Valero. Plus we recently got some 76, 86, and Conoco stations. and a couple of Gulfs. Some just keep flipping brand to brand.

laurasdada

My Costco, at last fill of Premium, was .30/gallon lower than the two stations I use to compare. A Sunoco and a Speedway, whom pre-Costco were the low price stations of choice.

I was going to guess way too low on the SUV/Truck %, go ~46%.

fordfool

abacomike said:

I have heeded the advice of my fellow posters and have stopped drinking grapefruit juice effective yesterday.  Immunosuppressants worry me because the psoriasis I developed in the last year that affects my fingers, knuckles and elbows is an auto-immune disease.  So now I drink Crystal Light Grape Drink instead of my morning grapefruit juice.  Who knows - maybe something good can come of this - thanks to all of you guys.  Thanks.  

Thanks driver for your post as well about the grapefruit juice several days ago.

As a card carrying old geezer and Social Security recipient who takes more than my share of medications and a retired medical research doctor, I can attest that grapefruit juice (and some other fruit juices) do indeed interfere with many medicines. Among them are Lipitor, some antibiotics, immunosuppressants, and tranquilizers. The Internet doesn't lie, so here's Wiki for what it's worth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit–drug_interactions

dino001

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

There are couple of Wawa stations around in Tampa. Their premium unleaded octane number is 92 as opposed to 93 on all other stations. Why is that?

I suppose in Florida most driving is downhill so the lower octane still works. Just joking!

My guess, and it is an uneducated layman's guess, is cars that require premium fuel usually require 91 Octane....they may go higher in warmer states because of this factor:

The higher the octane rating, the more branched the hydrocarbon chains are, which leads to a fuel which is more stable under heat and pressure

Probably Wawa figures 92 is good enough, and adds profit to their bottom line.

Funny, the whole octane number thing. Minimum required on my car is 91, which is common now, as high compression turbos became ubiquitous in this segment. My previous 328 has a N.A. engine with minimum 89 octane. Florida stations sell 87-89-93 (Costco has only 87-93), but if you go to places like Colorado and other mountain states, and it drops by 2 points: 85-87-91. My understanding this drop is no meaningful fine for naturally aspirated engines, which simply cannot take advantage of higher octane gas due to thin air (they will of course suffer from lower power, but no real engine issues). Turbocharged engines, however, controlled by modern PLCs will attempt to compensate pump more more air to keep the power, making the octane drop actually meaningful for the engine. No problem for me, as I still have 91 minimum, but there used to be some some cars in the past (like MazdaSpeed 6) that had high performance turbos with minimum required 93 octane and you simply couldn't get it in some states. I think now manufacturers wised up and made minimum octane requirement to fit lowest "premium gas" number from all states, which I believe is 91.

Another thing I noticed the pricing spreads between RUG and PUG are widening. I think the demand for PUG is creeping up due to the modern engines, but the supply growth may be constrained, especially in some states that use those unique blend requirements and are "willing hostage" of single refinery or blending facility.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

They just opened a Wawa less than 1/4 mile from me.  Place is always jammed - but I won’t buy any gasoline, no matter how cheap, that is not TopTier rated - and Wawa is not a TopTier rated brand.  But, they will compete well with Costco gas because there is no membership requirement and many people could care less about the amount and kind of detergent additives in the gasoline they put in their cars.  If your car’s engine has direct injection and you plan on keeping it for a few years or longer, they should care.

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge.

The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary.

I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while.

I asked my service manager if they had to do any special cleaning for their direct-injected engines due to low quality fuels. His answer was "No." My Malibu 2.5 is DI and I thought my Cruze that is my son's was DI when I asked.

I think this is a good job for Consumer Reports to put an end to the speculation.

They could control all variables and run several different DI car engines (but 2 of each), with the only difference being one is run on bottom-tier gas, and the other on top tier gas. Let's see which is dirtier and needs more frequent cleaning and walnut blasting. If there is no discernible difference, CR can advise it is all snake oil.

I'm puzzled by the use of DI engines that need expensive matainance. The local BMW store reccommends walnut blasting every 30k miles. This requires removing the heads, I understand, a $1500 service. That's just crazy.

Remove the badge and the price goes down maybe even to zero.

As for the gas thing:

I use Sunoco 93 octane in the Genny (5.0 DI V8 engine) and the snowblower. The lawnmower gets 93 octane by default. Why the good stuff for the snowblower...because about 15 years ago a small engine shop told me when I couldn't find a fuel mixture adjustment on the two cycle Tecumseh engine to stop looking for it because it doesn't exist. He told me if I wanted to minimize the engine surging, use the highest octane gas I could find but not to use any octane booster stuff. That did it but since I still have gas left over from the Winter, the lawnmower gets the good stuff too.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

POP QUIZ ANSWER: The percentage of total USA vehicle sales that consists of CUVs, SUVs and trucks, is......

70%

explorerx4

With DI engines the fuel does not see the back of the intake valve unless somehow through EGR.
My F 150 has a DI and PI system similar to what Toyota/Lexus has for some of their engines.

driver100

qbrozen said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

POP QUIZ:

Of the 17 million vehicles sales in 2017 in the USA, what percentage were trucks, SUVs and crossovers (combined)?

Closest correction answer gets an official Edmunds ATTABOY!

I was thinking about 62%, but I guess that's low by the answers so far.

I have read at least 2 articles this week that said 75% of the cars sold are SUVs or trucks....that is why Ford is getting out of cars (in North America), GM is dropping quite a few, and Chrysler is dropping a few models.

I did find this statement:
By 2022, LMC Automotive estimates 84 percent of the vehicles General Motors sells in the U.S. market will be some kind of truck or SUV. Ford's ratio of domestic SUV and truck sales will hit 90 percent; Fiat Chrysler's will notch a whopping 97 percent.

"We have SUVs eventually crossing the 50 percent threshold by themselves in the near future," Schuster said.

And this: By 2017, that nearly even split between car and truck sales became lopsided, with 35 percent of sales going to cars and 65 percent to trucks and SUVs.

And this: Sport utes and pickups have made up around 70 per cent of total sales in Canada in 2017

*I wrote this before I saw the answer.

explorerx4

I kind of feel like sedans styled themselves out of favor. They look like 4 door fastbacks and rear headroom has been compromised.

tbirdmarco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=moK0qkSAqfI

oldfarmer50

I thought I'd heard all the telephone scams that were out there but I just got a call on my home answering machine that said my iCloud account had been "breached" and I should call them back right away. Even gave me a toll free number.

The only problem is that I don't have an iCloud account and if I did I wouldn't know how to access it.

Any of you get a call like this? It's only notable because most scam robo calls hang up on the answering machine.

xwesx

andres3 said:

They could control all variables and run several different DI car engines (but 2 of each), with the only difference being one is run on bottom-tier gas, and the other on top tier gas. Let's see which is dirtier and needs more frequent cleaning and walnut blasting. If there is no discernible difference, CR can advise it is all snake oil.

I wish it were true! However, my Fiesta ran like crap on anything other than TT fuel. I always filled my vehicles at the local Fred Meyer station (e.g., Kroger), and had for more than a decade. Within a few months of buying the Fiesta, it would stutter frequently. The local dealership rep suggested that I try premium instead of 87, but another rep who was walking by while we chatted stopped and suggested that I try Chevron instead. The price gap, at the time, was the same for Chevron 87 vs. Fred Meyer 91, so I gave it a try.

To my surprise, the car smoothed out on that very tank, and I never had an issue with it after that if I continued to use top tier! I tried going back to Fred Meyer 87, but it would immediately start hesitating again. During that whole time, we continued to use Fred Meyer for our Forester's fuel, and never any issues with that car.

driver100

People might start buying small sedans again....when Iran cuts off the oil supply - and prices jump!

abacomike

driver100 said:

People might start buying small sedans again....when Iran cuts off the oil supply - and prices jump!

Iran would be hurting itself financially if they cut oil shipments or curtailed oil shipments.  The US, Mexico and even Canada produce tremendous amounts of oil as does Venezuela through its Citgo operations.

Additionally, Saudi Arabia would increase oil production along with Kuwait to make up for any shortfalls caused by Iran - remember that Iran is an enemy of the UAE, Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries.  

abacomike

oldfarmer50 said:

I thought I'd heard all the telephone scams that were out there but I just got a call on my home answering machine that said my iCloud account had been "breached" and I should call them back right away. Even gave me a toll free number. The only problem is that I don't have an iCloud account and if I did I wouldn't know how to access it. Any of you get a call like this? It's only notable because most scam robo calls hang up on the answering machine.

All the time!  I get calls from “Microsoft” warning me that my Windows 10 is infected with a virus.  Also I get calls from auto warranty companies warning me that my 2017 BMW and my 2018 MB S450 is out of warranty.  Today, it was the IRS warning me I am being sued for non-payment of taxes.  I could go on and on, but it is a never-ending enslaught.

abacomike

explorerx4 said:

I kind of feel like sedans styled themselves out of favor. They look like 4 door fastbacks and rear headroom has been compromised.

I am not convinced that sedans are going to be a thing of the past through reductions in their manufacture.  The C Class Sedan is a huge seller for MB and BMW sells a lot of 3, 4, and 5 series sedans.  The Sonata, Camry, Accord, and Civic also have great market shares.  SUV’s are big profit items for the auto industry as are trucks.  But demand for sedans will remain fairly strong for years to come IMHO.  Ford’s Lincoln Division will continue manufacturing sedans and Lexus sells lots of sedans as well.

Mr_Shiftright

abacomike said:

driver100 said:

People might start buying small sedans again....when Iran cuts off the oil supply - and prices jump!

Iran would be hurting itself financially if they cut oil shipments or curtailed oil shipments.  The US, Mexico and even Canada produce tremendous amounts of oil as does Venezuela through its Citgo operations.

Additionally, Saudi Arabia would increase oil production along with Kuwait to make up for any shortfalls caused by Iran - remember that Iran is an enemy of the UAE, Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries.  




Rising gas prices sucks a HUGE amount of money out of the economy.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

There are couple of Wawa stations around in Tampa. Their premium unleaded octane number is 92 as opposed to 93 on all other stations. Why is that?

I suppose in Florida most driving is downhill so the lower octane still works. Just joking!

My guess, and it is an uneducated layman's guess, is cars that require premium fuel usually require 91 Octane....they may go higher in warmer states because of this factor:

The higher the octane rating, the more branched the hydrocarbon chains are, which leads to a fuel which is more stable under heat and pressure

Probably Wawa figures 92 is good enough, and adds profit to their bottom line.

Funny, the whole octane number thing. Minimum required on my car is 91, which is common now, as high compression turbos became ubiquitous in this segment. My previous 328 has a N.A. engine with minimum 89 octane. Florida stations sell 87-89-93 (Costco has only 87-93), but if you go to places like Colorado and other mountain states, and it drops by 2 points: 85-87-91. My understanding this drop is no meaningful fine for naturally aspirated engines, which simply cannot take advantage of higher octane gas due to thin air (they will of course suffer from lower power, but no real engine issues). Turbocharged engines, however, controlled by modern PLCs will attempt to compensate pump more more air to keep the power, making the octane drop actually meaningful for the engine. No problem for me, as I still have 91 minimum, but there used to be some some cars in the past (like MazdaSpeed 6) that had high performance turbos with minimum required 93 octane and you simply couldn't get it in some states. I think now manufacturers wised up and made minimum octane requirement to fit lowest "premium gas" number from all states, which I believe is 91.

Another thing I noticed the pricing spreads between RUG and PUG are widening. I think the demand for PUG is creeping up due to the modern engines, but the supply growth may be constrained, especially in some states that use those unique blend requirements and are "willing hostage" of single refinery or blending facility.

My Mustang will run on anything over 87 but with lower performance so I generally get 91. If I go with the Ford Power Pack CAI tune it will be 91 all the time but I'll get an extra 40 ft.lbs. of torque at 1500 rpm. Tempting.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

I kind of feel like sedans styled themselves out of favor. They look like 4 door fastbacks and rear headroom has been compromised.

I agree, they try to make every car look like a space ship.

BTW, I was watching the Mecum auction and a 1990 Mustang GT coupe went for over $10k. Not even a convertible.

imidazol97

driver100 said:

According to this article, and the picture if they show up, there is a difference

I don't know who wrote the article (could be fake news), but, I initially wrote I doubt if there is that much difference, otherwise why wouldn't dealers ask you when you trade in your car, if you used TT gas.
Full article, if true, is pretty convincing;
WHY USE TT GAS

Now let's be realistic. They give a portrayal of what an intake valve looks like with some gas that's not one of the Top Tier fuels. Did they search through and pick a fuel source from a particularly poor fuel source?

AND if your car is direct injected, the intake valve doesn't get the fuel mist going past it... So their portrayal isn't realistic.

The only, only difference is the additives. There are two tank farms on a pipeline near a city in the area. One is branded by the company owning it and some stations under other names of subsidiaries I guess they would be. The other tank farm apparently pulls from the same pipeline. Trucks go in and out of there delivering fuel to all kinds of stations. So the fuel that went to the Sunoco station and the Kroger station likely came from the same tank of unleaded or premium (there is no midgrade). The only different may be in the efficacy of the additive package dumped in to mix during the drive to the delivery point.

The clark howard link is odd because the AAA "study" doesn't really give information about sourcing of their fuels and the conditions for their testing. Were these engines on stands or cars being driven by real people?

I haven't seen AAA in Ohio complaining about lack of fuel quality testing standards and pushing for legislation, so I question their interest in fuel quality short of some lobbying money thrown their way for putting their name on a study to support a lobbyist's goal. Maybe AARP results will be next in line for the kickback dough?

The other odd thing in the text is that the clark.com claims that all grades of Shell gasoline must have the same additive package. That contradicts Shell's advertising that their super dooper premium is more additive laden than the regular and you should guy it because of that.

Disclosure: I use Shell exclusively when traveling. I mix Kroger fuel and United Dairy Farmers fuel and Shell for the rest of my use. I have not had an engine failure nor a fuel injector failure.

I think I'll call Kroger and UDF tomorrow and ask if they supply Top Tier fuel. I'll be back with a full report.

Mr_Shiftright

oldfarmer50 said:

explorerx4 said:

I kind of feel like sedans styled themselves out of favor. They look like 4 door fastbacks and rear headroom has been compromised.

I agree, they try to make every car look like a space ship.

BTW, I was watching the Mecum auction and a 1990 Mustang GT coupe went for over $10k. Not even a convertible.

What? Did it have like 12 miles on it or something? This is a $4K car usually.

explorerx4

I've seen some Fox body Mustang convertibles going for 20k+ on some of those auction shows.
Mine looks great, but I'm under no illusion it's worth a lot of money.

cdnpinhead

Mr_Shiftright said:

Rising gas prices sucks a HUGE amount of money out of the economy.

Generally true, but the "oil patch" guys look at it much differently. There's a lot of the U.S (and Canadian) economy that depends on petroleum, and they've been hurting for several years now.

driver100

abacomike said:

driver100 said:

People might start buying small sedans again....when Iran cuts off the oil supply - and prices jump!

Iran would be hurting itself financially if they cut oil shipments or curtailed oil shipments.  The US, Mexico and even Canada produce tremendous amounts of oil as does Venezuela through its Citgo operations.

Additionally, Saudi Arabia would increase oil production along with Kuwait to make up for any shortfalls caused by Iran - remember that Iran is an enemy of the UAE, Saudi Arabia and other OPEC countries.

 




Many sources say prices will rise if the US if there is an embargo on Iranian oil. Others say, production can be ramped up from other sources. Depends on who you believe, or more likely....no one really knows until it all actually happens.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

According to this article, and the picture if they show up, there is a difference

I don't know who wrote the article (could be fake news), but, I initially wrote I doubt if there is that much difference, otherwise why wouldn't dealers ask you when you trade in your car, if you used TT gas.
Full article, if true, is pretty convincing;
WHY USE TT GAS

Now let's be realistic. They give a portrayal of what an intake valve looks like with some gas that's not one of the Top Tier fuels. Did they search through and pick a fuel source from a particularly poor fuel source?

AND if your car is direct injected, the intake valve doesn't get the fuel mist going past it... So their portrayal isn't realistic.

I think I'll call Kroger and UDF tomorrow and ask if they supply Top Tier fuel. I'll be back with a full report.

It does say there is a website to get more details.
There is an *asterisk, that says it applies to certain brands.......maybe they used gas from Uncle Charlies Gas and Taco Stand.

fintail

Prices will rise with just a little added instability - look at prices right now, No embargo, no real issues, rising prices.

I suspect the decrepit Russian economy will be helped a little too, which might be a motivation behind these weird geopolitical moves.

driver100 said:

Many sources say prices will rise if the US if there is an embargo on Iranian oil. Others say, production can be ramped up from other sources. Depends on who you believe, or more likely....no one really knows until it all actually happens.

roadburner

oldfarmer50 said:

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

They just opened a Wawa less than 1/4 mile from me.  Place is always jammed - but I won’t buy any gasoline, no matter how cheap, that is not TopTier rated - and Wawa is not a TopTier rated brand.  But, they will compete well with Costco gas because there is no membership requirement and many people could care less about the amount and kind of detergent additives in the gasoline they put in their cars.  If your car’s engine has direct injection and you plan on keeping it for a few years or longer, they should care.

I doubt that any major supplier of gasoline under a brand name that moves a lot of fuel is going to use an additive package that is deficient. The top tier labeling, in my opinion,, served to increase awareness that additives were needed 2 decades ago. Gasoline suppliers met that challenge.

The only fuels I'd worry about would be the small station types who were alleged in the past to buy fuel on a spot market and they sometimes purchased fuel that was aged or below specs from suppliers who had to move it out of their inventory. I don't see those kind of stations in this area any more. Ohio doesn't have fuel testing while almost all other states do: proof of what good lobbying money can buy in our own version of deep state corruption here in Ohio--banking and insurance being primary.

I suspect most brands of fuel put the same additive package into their regular unleaded as they do in their premium fuel. Again, the advertising sells people on what they what to hear and to think they are buying. Top Tier did that for a while.

I asked my service manager if they had to do any special cleaning for their direct-injected engines due to low quality fuels. His answer was "No." My Malibu 2.5 is DI and I thought my Cruze that is my son's was DI when I asked.

I think this is a good job for Consumer Reports to put an end to the speculation.

They could control all variables and run several different DI car engines (but 2 of each), with the only difference being one is run on bottom-tier gas, and the other on top tier gas. Let's see which is dirtier and needs more frequent cleaning and walnut blasting. If there is no discernible difference, CR can advise it is all snake oil.

I'm puzzled by the use of DI engines that need expensive matainance. The local BMW store reccommends walnut blasting every 30k miles. This requires removing the heads, I understand, a $1500 service. That's just crazy.

There were some issues with some DI motors but most issues were sorted a decade ago. There are a bunch of flaky Luddites who run scared when DI motors are mentioned, and a lot of those old women hang out over on the Bob is the Oil Guy forums- lamenting the demise of hand crank starters, distributors, sealed beam headlamps, and carburetors.

My 2007 MS3 had a DI turbo and I never had the valves cleaned- it was running great at 158k when I sold it. The N55 in my 2er is also a DI turbo- it's running great at 40k- ditto for the NA DI motor in the Clubman at 110k.

And whoever told you that the heads have to be removed for walnut blasting is either terminally misinformed or attempting to screw customers- only the intake has to be removed. And I know my store never recommended a 30k walnut blasting service.

abacomike

fintail said:

Prices will rise with just a little added instability - look at prices right now, No embargo, no real issues, rising prices. I suspect the decrepit Russian economy will be helped a little too, which might be a motivation behind these weird geopolitical moves.

Many sources say prices will rise if the US if there is an embargo on Iranian oil. Others say, production can be ramped up from other sources. Depends on who you believe, or more likely....no one really knows until it all actually happens.

I agree that oil prices (per barrel) have been rising steadily over the past several months.  When gasoline/diesel prices rise, it causes a domino effect on the economies worldwide.  It causes prices on everything shipped to rise; airfares rise; food prices rise (transportation); cost of new housing rises (transporting lumber and building supplies); pharmaceuticals rise.

As inflation increases, the interest on the national debt rises.  Nasty stuff!