Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

bwia

Yes, it will likely require a monthly subscription for the cloud based system. 

What is even more important is faster internet connection as promised by 5G networks.

dino001

It may still able to tether it to the phone through some way, e.g. use phone's hotspot. Otherwise, it becomes another device that the phone company can charge you for access to your plan. Chaching, five/ten/twenty bucks. Or, just like you said, it comes with 3/4/5 years (depending on the warranty) included and then you buy it same way some people buy Onstar, or other manufacturer's plans. Can be part of their annual subscription, like I have on my 430. 4 years of map, traffic, emergency systems, and some useless apps and then they'll charge me per year, if I elect to buy it. When you switch to the Apple Play (I didn't buy it, but if you do), then the data exchange goes against your phone's data plan.

graphicguy

stickguy said:

Can’t read article now, but I assume this will require paying for a data subscription for that access.

That's what I was thinking. As it stands, any auto manufacturer that supports Apple Car Play or Android Auto will be able to transfer that data from your iPhone or Android phone to the car's infotainment system. For example, he auto manufacturers pay Apple a fee to license Car Play. They all seem to be adopting the model of letting the phone OS do the work of their in-house developed OS for infotainment.

Probably makes sense. The cost of developing all that infrastructure internally is huge. Then, you have to pay to support it, which is probably even a higher cost.

Just let the phone OS do the work. Manufacturers pay a fee and then wash their hands of any support.

The article's marketshare data is wrong, too. Android Auto and Apple Car Play are neck in neck for the adaptation in the car.

graphicguy

Regarding doc fees.....I've heard the dealer say they HAVE TO charge the doc fee to me because if they didn't, they could be sued for discrimination since they charge everyone else that fee.

My answer is always the same...."I don't care how you show the deal on paper. My offer stands. It's on number. Divide that number on paper however you want."

jmonroe1

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

The “law” is stated: “If you charge a dealer fee, it must be pre-printed on all buyer’s orders and bills of sales and charged to ALL buyers.”  There are no State laws that require dealer fees.

The way a dealer can bypass that fee is to lower the selling price by the amount of the fee.

Of course, Mike. It's good to know the fee value before, so you can prepare yourself to lower the "price" accordingly, if you're talking in that particular format.

My beef is mostly with the truth in advertising, not whether price is too high, too low, or if they "deserve" their "money for nothing" fee. You open newspaper with a screaming "starting at", "you pay", or whatever and you have to make all that math. I think it crossed the line where it's no longer just a "format", it's a clear lie. Screaming "you pay", then you need to add $3000 in trade (you still pay it, just in a different form, i.e. barter), $1000 in fee, sometimes another $1000 in manufacturer's destination, as it was excluded from "you pay" shout, THEN of course add all the taxes and registration. At some point it becomes ridiculous and completely useless.

Airlines used to do that, too (Fly New York from $59, one way fare based on round trip, taxes, fees not included), but they were finally prohibited. Today they have to advertise OTD price, they might be allowed break it into one-way I believe, but that's it. It's time similar laws are passed for the car industry, as it clearly has no interest in clearing itself from all that BS, if anything it keeps ratcheting it up. It may be a bit harder, but I still think they can manage - it's not that hard to add all the fees and even state government taxes and registration fees, based on a common scenario prescribed by the legislator, e.g. taxes, title and 1 year registration at jurisdiction specific to the dealer with disclaimer that people outside of the county may pay more or less. Same thing can be done with lease or loan payments - clearly stated jurisdiction, interest rate, down payment and other assumptions. But wait... people would be shocked cars are so expensive. People can't know how much they are actually paying. They'd stay home and the economy would collapse. We can't have that - deception is the only way to keep the economy rolling.

Doc fees seem to be one of the most disliked dealer add ons that a knowledgeable car buyer faces at time of purchase. Note that I said "knowledgeable car buyer" because most car buyers don't even know about this and just pay it. For the guys in here we account for it in our offer.

When I bought my '15 Genny it was from a dealer in Fairfax Virginia. I went there because this was the only dealer I could find (really found by Son #1) that had the car I wanted. A V8 in the exact color I wanted both exterior and interior, or so I thought at the time but that is another story I have since griped about but what is done is done so I have to live with that. I did my negotiating via phone calls after the initial internet visit which prompted the salesman to call. We had the typical back and forth negotiating via calls and as the salesman was off getting approval of the final number we agreed on, I noticed that the dealers internet page mentioned all prices did not include sales tax, plate fees, AND a doc fee of almost $600 (I think it was $580). Needless to say I missed that before but now that I knew it that got a rise out of me. I immediately called the salesman to tell him not to bother getting approval because we were not going to get to a deal now because of the high doc fee. He did the typical dealer song and dance about having to charge everybody that fee because it was preprinted on their sales document and it was a policy that could not be changed. I told him I understood it was their policy but my policy was not to pay an exorbitant doc fee. I also told him I didn't like them at all but at least in PA the doc fee was a more reasonable $138 (it is now $144) and the last time I bought a car in PA, I backed out the doc fee from the price of the car that the dealer wanted to allow for it. Just as I'm about to hang up I said something like, "I understand your position so I'll just call the dealer in Akron who has my second color choice (which should have been my first choice. Yes, I'm still griping about the color) and buy from him. Still hung up about wanting my first color choice I said, "I'll tell you what, since you have the color I want, if you drop your doc fee to $138 I'll buy your car but I doubt your boss will agree to this deal but if you want to try it I'll wait before calling the dealer in Akron. He said he'd get back to me within a half hour to let me know so "please don't do anything until I get back to you". I agreed. He calls back in 15 minutes and says we have a deal but the sales contract will still say $580. They will adjust the price of their car and show more for my trade ('09 Genny), however, they still have to decide how to break that up but he assures me the bottom line will be what we agreed to as the final price. I asked for and received an email confirming this. So they can do it when they want to and obviously they wanted to.

I pass this info on not so much to show that a dealer can do a reasonable deal when they want to but to point out to you guys, and once again remind myself, that as much as we THINK we know how to do a deal based on our research, we don't really know how much trunk money there is to play with. We only THINK we know. In the end, as long as the dealer meets our number (assuming we know something), we have nothing to complain about.

jmonroe

28firefighter

Am I the only one who is feeling withdrawal from the Sentra saga? I don't want to know, but I can't help it!

jmonroe1

28firefighter said:

Am I the only one who is feeling withdrawal from the Sentra saga? I don't want to know, but I can't help it!

Yes and you need help. :@

jmonroe

roadburner

28firefighter said:

Am I the only one who is feeling withdrawal from the Sentra saga? I don't want to know, but I can't help it!

It's just so bizarre that I can't help but follow it...

Mr_Shiftright

dino001 said:

driver100 said:

graphicguy said:

Lincoln Nautilus....makes me think of a wallowing vehicle. Not sure that's the marketing impression they were going for.

Sounds too much like the Lincoln Nauseous.

Really? Never read Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Sea?

I don't want my car attacked by a giant squid. Those sucker marks are very difficult to remove.

jwm40517

I just do not get the doc fee argument from dealers who say they have to charge the same amount to all buyers or be accused of discrimination. Why is the doc fee so sacred? Every other part of the deal from car price to interest rate, add-ons, extended service agreements and more varies from one deal to another and no 2 deals out of 100 are the same. If you apply the doc fee argument to every sale, every buyer would pay the same price.

28firefighter

I've all but stopped paying attention to doc fees. Similar to what @graphicguy does, I just adjust my offer based on the doc fee they give me in their first response. I truly don't care.

Luckily I live in a state where the doc fee is capped at $150 and bordered by a state where the doc fee is capped at $115.

venture

jwm40517 said:

I just do not get the doc fee argument from dealers who say they have to charge the same amount to all buyers or be accused of discrimination. Why is the doc fee so sacred? Every other part of the deal from car price to interest rate, add-ons, extended service agreements and more varies from one deal to another and no 2 deals out of 100 are the same. If you apply the doc fee argument to every sale, every buyer would pay the same price.

It is 100% profit for the dealer. No commissions are paid out of it. You have a better chance of getting into their holdback than you do their doc fee.

houdini2

graphicguy said:

Regarding doc fees.....I've heard the dealer say they HAVE TO charge the doc fee to me because if they didn't, they could be sued for discrimination since they charge everyone else that fee.

My answer is always the same...."I don't care how you show the deal on paper. My offer stands. It's on number. Divide that number on paper however you want."

I have heard dealers quote that too. I always ask them if they don't sell all their cars at the same price, throw in floor mats for one customer, or charge a higher interest rate, aren't they afraid of being sued for discrimination?

driver100

What happened? Now jmonroe1 is writing posts that are as long as jmonroes. I thought his cousin was going to be briefer.

houdini2

houdini2 said:

graphicguy said:

Regarding doc fees.....I've heard the dealer say they HAVE TO charge the doc fee to me because if they didn't, they could be sued for discrimination since they charge everyone else that fee.

My answer is always the same...."I don't care how you show the deal on paper. My offer stands. It's on number. Divide that number on paper however you want."

driver100

Is it just me or does the 2019 Lexus UX look very ugly?

driver100

Camaro sales are plunging by double digits, Mustang takes the lead.


The Chevrolet Camaro has lost pole position for the first time in five years to it’s biggest rival, the Ford Mustang, and even more embarrassingly, to the ancient Dodge Challenger. Q2 sales of the Camaro have dropped 36 per cent across all trackable markets, which includes Canada, the United States, and South Korea.

FULL ARTICLE

driver100

28firefighter said:

Am I the only one who is feeling withdrawal from the Sentra saga? I don't want to know, but I can't help it!

Me too.....what ever happened? Was that suppose to close yesterday?

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

What happened? Now jmonroe1 is writing posts that are as long as jmonroes. I thought his cousin was going to be briefer.

His gost made me do it.

jmonroe

xwesx

driver100 said:

Is it just me or does the 2019 Lexus UX look very ugly?

No more so than many of the vehicles out there today (particularly small crossovers like this). However, it *is* a Lexus and, like Acura, they make a point to polarize.

stickguy

A strange family front end is one thing. But that has some really awkward proportions and strange angles.

suydam

I actually think a lot of the small crossovers are very attractive. Not that one. The car it replaced, the CT200h, was actually very nice looking.

ab348

driver100 said:

Is it just me or does the 2019 Lexus UX look very ugly?

Are you sure that's not the Lexus "UG"?

ab348

driver100 said:

Camaro sales are plunging by double digits, Mustang takes the lead.


The Chevrolet Camaro has lost pole position for the first time in five years to it’s biggest rival, the Ford Mustang, and even more embarrassingly, to the ancient Dodge Challenger. Q2 sales of the Camaro have dropped 36 per cent across all trackable markets, which includes Canada, the United States, and South Korea.

FULL ARTICLE

Not really a surprise to me. When your all-new car looks like a 9/10s scale copy of the previous edition and prospective customers cannot tell them apart then you have made a serious error. Add to that the ridiculously poor visibility, unattractive dash design, poor space utilization and stiff pricing and you have a problem. I absolutely fail to understand what GM was thinking with this car's development.

PF_Flyer

driver100 said:

Is it just me or does the 2019 Lexus UX look very ugly?

They could have had a better backdrop. That might be influencing perceptions

dino001

venture said:

jwm40517 said:

I just do not get the doc fee argument from dealers who say they have to charge the same amount to all buyers or be accused of discrimination. Why is the doc fee so sacred? Every other part of the deal from car price to interest rate, add-ons, extended service agreements and more varies from one deal to another and no 2 deals out of 100 are the same. If you apply the doc fee argument to every sale, every buyer would pay the same price.

It is 100% profit for the dealer. No commissions are paid out of it. You have a better chance of getting into their holdback than you do their doc fee.

I think you hit it. By increasing the doc fees, dealers are trying to "lock in" more and more profit to themselves rather than sharing it with the employees. They think they are giving "motivation" to their workforce to hunt for the extra money from their customers. However, in current internet pricing era, we've reaching the point, where it doesn't work anymore. With knowledge on the "nominal spread" and faced with steep $1000 fee, customer who knows enough will simply refuse any decent markup, pay only X amount and you figure it out how you write it. The salesperson gets a mini anyway. Then why bother at all? A rational reaction would be to focus on volume, not price.

dino001

suydam said:

I actually think a lot of the small crossovers are very attractive. Not that one. The car it replaced, the CT200h, was actually very nice looking.

CT200h was a dog. I drove it, it had an acceleration of Geo Metro from 30 years ago. Very underwhelming.

berri

Isn't Florida notorious for dealer rip-offs?

imidazol97

dino001 said:

CT200h was a dog. I drove it, it had an acceleration of Geo Metro from 30 years ago. Very underwhelming.

It's rare to see a Toyota criticized. Refreshing.

stickguy

part of the problem might be that the compensation model no longer makes sense with the way pricing is done now. So it would be a lot easier to just move to a non-commission pay model. Basically a salary + bonus per unit? There are some dealers around here that advertise non-commissioned sales people. Probably like a waiter, the base would not be that high, but they would get a couple hundred maybe per unit. so there is still incentive to sell more.

sales people don't really care that much about the price I don't think, since most deals are minis anyway. So they sort of are on a volume pay plan.

seems counterproductive for dealers to work this hard to screw their employees, which mostly leads to constant turn over. Guess making it a better customer experience is not relevant to them.

abacomike

jwm40517 said:

I just do not get the doc fee argument from dealers who say they have to charge the same amount to all buyers or be accused of discrimination. Why is the doc fee so sacred? Every other part of the deal from car price to interest rate, add-ons, extended service agreements and more varies from one deal to another and no 2 deals out of 100 are the same. If you apply the doc fee argument to every sale, every buyer would pay the same price.

jwm, let me put it another way:

If a dealer makes a “decision” to charge a dealer fee, it must be charged to ALL BUYERS of cars/trucks/SUV’s equally, without exception, per state statute/law.  Proof of this charge being nondiscrimatory is the fact that the “fee” is preprinted on the dealership’s buyer’s order and bill of sale for “every” transaction.  

The very top line on a bill of sale is a figure known as the “selling price.”  That figure is not the MSRP, but rather the agreed price of that vehicle’s sale price.  That number can be reduced by the amount of the “fee” in order to circumvent legal problems associated with the statute requiring that all sales must include the “fee” as required by the State in which a dealer fee is charged.  The State does not require a dealer fee - just that if a dealer fee is charged, every customer must be charged the same amount at the point of sale.

Thus, when I buy/lease a car from a dealership and refuse to pay the dealer fee, all they do is reduce the “selling price” by the amount of the dealer fee.  Then, it (amount of dealer fee) is added back at the bottom of the bill of sale - just playing with numbers.  The net affect is that I did not pay the fee as it was backed out of the selling price.

That’s how it is done.

suydam

dino001 said:

suydam said:

I actually think a lot of the small crossovers are very attractive. Not that one. The car it replaced, the CT200h, was actually very nice looking.

CT200h was a dog. I drove it, it had an acceleration of Geo Metro from 30 years ago. Very underwhelming.

I didn’t say it was a good vehicle! I said it LOOKED good.
Say

tjc78

graphicguy said:

stickguy said:

tjc78 said:

So I was all primed to use WAZE with CarPlay! Downloaded IOS12, did all updates on the phone and gave it a shot in the Elantra.... FAIL!

The app isn’t recognized by the car. I’ll have to do some Google action to see what’s up. Hopefully, there is a software update for the car I can install.

when you find out, let me know! Not that I care about waze. though at some point, if they do add Google maps, that I would want.

Hmmm....Waze is working with my iPhone X running iSO 12 in my TLX. Tried Google Maps yesterday. It’s working fine, too. But, I had to upgrade to do an upgrade of Google Maps.

While the graphics of both Waze and Google Maps is no better (or worse) than Apple Maps, Waze does show construction, police speed traps, speed limit, etc data on my Acura’s screen. Acura’s NAV maps look better, but their voice command leaves a lot to be desired vs Apple Maps.

So far, so good!

Everything I read you need the newest Beta version of Waze to make it work. Really odd.... Google Maps does in fact work in my car, after I installed it.

Either is better than Apple Maps, but I'd really like Waze

tjc78

qbrozen said:

suydam said:

But in the end if it’s a good car it won’t matter. Lots of cars have dumb names. What the hell is an Encore or an Enclave?!

Well, encore is an extra entertaining bit that may happen spontaneoulsy after the real show is over. To me, as for a car name, I think "afterthought." So the Buick baby suv is merely an afterthought.

An enclave is kind of synonymous with sanctuary; an individualized space separated from the crowd. So that actually makes sense.

I drove by a sign for a housing development named "The Enclave". I thought it actually was a good name for a development.

I, for one, could care less what my car is called... I don't recall the name ever influencing my decision either way.

houdini2

xwesx said:

driver100 said:

Is it just me or does the 2019 Lexus UX look very ugly?

No more so than many of the vehicles out there today (particularly small crossovers like this). However, it *is* a Lexus and, like Acura, they make a point to polarize.

Color me polarized by that front end !

snakeweasel

venture said:

graphicguy said:

Why would any knowledgeable car buyer allow a car sales person to engage them in a discussion which the sales person intends to use to eliminate and/or identify perceived "objections"? The single most important component of a solid buying strategy is for the buyer to assume control of the process. An essential part of assuming control is control of the discussion.

Old school thinking. The old “I’ll control the sales process”. If control is what you want, roll into the showroom with a wad of Benjamins and yell to anyone who will listen “who wants to sell me a car?”. You want to waste time? Keep trying to work towards controlling instead of getting the car you want at the deal you want. I’ve said this time and again, if you walk into the dealership thinking you’re going to grind, you’ll lose. 1. You don’t know the price you’re going to pay before you walk in the door because you’re focused on grinding that last $50 instead of what you’ll be spending overall 2. What you save on the front end, you’ll give away on the back end. For the last 15-20 years, I figure out what the car is worth and what it can be sold for. I add in my “pre-figured” tax, title and license fees. And, then present that number to the sales person/manager. They can either accept it or reject it. If they reject it, I move on. If they accept it, I just bought a car. They get ONE NUMBER. I don’t care what their doc fee is. I don’t care what addies they may try to charge for. There’s no bumping for extraneous fees in F&I. The number is the number. Negotions are easy. No stress. I’m happy with the deal (since I penciled it) and the dealer is happy with the deal (since they accepted it). It’s quick, too.

I work from a similar standpoint. I usually get my numbers off TrueCar, add 6.25% sales tax, and $300 for license plates, doc fees, etc. That is the number, take it or leave it, thank you very much. The last new truck I bought actually wound up lower than TrueCar. The dealership had an online sales price which was several hundred lower than TrueCar. When I came in, they wanted to add about $1,000 for “dealer add ons” (wheel locks, door edge guards, etc). I politely declined, said, “I will pay your advertised price, plus 6.25%, plus $300. End of story.” After a few minutes of hedging around, they agreed, the deal was made. They had done one thing which I had not seen before. For all of their vehicles, they took the window sticker and laminated it, along with an extra piece with the dealer add ons, all laminated together to look like one document. I guess they think this will make the add ons look more “official”.

That works for me. I'll usually look at TrueCar. Look at their online ads. Nose around their lot after hours to see what their stock situation is (that tells me if they have a little or a lot of what I'm looking at). I don't care how they divy up my number either. Not so much any more, but I used to hear the dealers say that their "doc fee" was required by law. Every time I asked them which law they could point me to outlining that fee, they backed off. I don't even argue with them any more. I make the one offer. That's it.

The “law” is stated: “If you charge a dealer fee, it must be pre-printed on all buyer’s orders and bills of sales and charged to ALL buyers.”  There are no State laws that require dealer fees.

The way a dealer can bypass that fee is to lower the selling price by the amount of the fee.

Not to be argumentative, but I have never been able to find a law that says that. I understand the dealers are protecting themselves from being labeled as discriminatory if they don't charge everyone since, evidently, there have been lawsuits about it.

I did a quick look and couldn't find a law stating that they have to charge everyone the same amount with the doc fee. If someone knows the code please post it. 

If it was an issue of charging everyone the same or be accused of discrimination wouldn't that also apply to the price of the car? 

roadburner

imidazol97 said:

dino001 said:

CT200h was a dog. I drove it, it had an acceleration of Geo Metro from 30 years ago. Very underwhelming.

It's rare to see a Toyota criticized. Refreshing.

The only Toyotas I would consider owning are the 86 and the upcoming Supra. Nothing else is even the smallest blip on my radar...

abacomike

snakeweasel said:

venture said:

graphicguy said:

Why would any knowledgeable car buyer allow a car sales person to engage them in a discussion which the sales person intends to use to eliminate and/or identify perceived "objections"? The single most important component of a solid buying strategy is for the buyer to assume control of the process. An essential part of assuming control is control of the discussion.

Old school thinking. The old “I’ll control the sales process”. If control is what you want, roll into the showroom with a wad of Benjamins and yell to anyone who will listen “who wants to sell me a car?”. You want to waste time? Keep trying to work towards controlling instead of getting the car you want at the deal you want. I’ve said this time and again, if you walk into the dealership thinking you’re going to grind, you’ll lose. 1. You don’t know the price you’re going to pay before you walk in the door because you’re focused on grinding that last $50 instead of what you’ll be spending overall 2. What you save on the front end, you’ll give away on the back end. For the last 15-20 years, I figure out what the car is worth and what it can be sold for. I add in my “pre-figured” tax, title and license fees. And, then present that number to the sales person/manager. They can either accept it or reject it. If they reject it, I move on. If they accept it, I just bought a car. They get ONE NUMBER. I don’t care what their doc fee is. I don’t care what addies they may try to charge for. There’s no bumping for extraneous fees in F&I. The number is the number. Negotions are easy. No stress. I’m happy with the deal (since I penciled it) and the dealer is happy with the deal (since they accepted it). It’s quick, too.

I work from a similar standpoint. I usually get my numbers off TrueCar, add 6.25% sales tax, and $300 for license plates, doc fees, etc. That is the number, take it or leave it, thank you very much. The last new truck I bought actually wound up lower than TrueCar. The dealership had an online sales price which was several hundred lower than TrueCar. When I came in, they wanted to add about $1,000 for “dealer add ons” (wheel locks, door edge guards, etc). I politely declined, said, “I will pay your advertised price, plus 6.25%, plus $300. End of story.” After a few minutes of hedging around, they agreed, the deal was made. They had done one thing which I had not seen before. For all of their vehicles, they took the window sticker and laminated it, along with an extra piece with the dealer add ons, all laminated together to look like one document. I guess they think this will make the add ons look more “official”.

That works for me. I'll usually look at TrueCar. Look at their online ads. Nose around their lot after hours to see what their stock situation is (that tells me if they have a little or a lot of what I'm looking at). I don't care how they divy up my number either. Not so much any more, but I used to hear the dealers say that their "doc fee" was required by law. Every time I asked them which law they could point me to outlining that fee, they backed off. I don't even argue with them any more. I make the one offer. That's it.

The “law” is stated: “If you charge a dealer fee, it must be pre-printed on all buyer’s orders and bills of sales and charged to ALL buyers.”  There are no State laws that require dealer fees.

The way a dealer can bypass that fee is to lower the selling price by the amount of the fee.

Not to be argumentative, but I have never been able to find a law that says that. I understand the dealers are protecting themselves from being labeled as discriminatory if they don't charge everyone since, evidently, there have been lawsuits about it.

I did a quick look and couldn't find a law stating that they have to charge everyone the same amount with the doc fee. If someone knows the code please post it. 

If it was an issue of charging everyone the same or be accused of discrimination wouldn't that also apply to the price of the car? 

Florida does require that if a fee is charged, it “must “ be charged to everyone.  I tried looking up the requirement, but since I am not an attorney, I did not know where to look.  It must be in The State of Florida Statutes or it could be a requirement of the State of Florida Commerce Department.  But I do remember sitting in a legal conference sponsored by the State on due diligence in meeting the requirements of that dealer fee issue back when I was a sales manager.

There are several dealers down here that do not charge a dealer fee any more.  Many have used that in their dealer advertising.  JM Lexus discontinued the dealer fee this year.

dino001

I see lots of effort put by many companies into figuring out how to pay people less for the same effort, or if that's not possible, how to push the compensation on somebody else. Incentives always get "restructured" to give less, bonus plans always rise the threshold.

Whole tipping is turning into a sham - from what I heard, it used to be 10 percent, then 15 on value before tax, now they all want 20 on value with tax and in some places they'd still say it's not enough. What annoys me even more, I see now tip jars or some other kind of push in places you never saw it before. Panera Bread is trying to guilt you into tipping, when you make an order, take it yourself from the counter and return the dirty dishes to the station. I refuse, it should not be my responsibility to compensate the employee in any case, but in this one it seems outrageous. What's more, I bet if people start tipping in large numbers, Panera will simply reduce staff's compensation, as now they're tipped, so why they need to pay them. Then I'll be a bad guy for not tipping and denying an employee their rightful compensation. This whole thing is making me sick. Pay people right, figure out your price, say what it is, let me have my meal in peace, so I don't have to think of welfare of the guy who brought it to me. I just want my meal.

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

Guys, the only reason I presented the “overcoming buyer’s objections” is to educate you as to how salesmen are trained.  This way, you enter the new car showroom well prepared for the “modus operandi” of the well-trained salesman.

The question was asked: “How quickly or early on can you tell if a customer is truly a buyer or just a tire kicker?”  If the salesman follows his training model, I would presume he will know who is a buyer or not when there is more than one objection, other than price, that cannot be overcome.

All I was doing was to present to you what to look out for when working with a well-trained professional salesman.  Hope it was informative. 

When I last bought a new car I told the saleman that I wasn't buying that day as I was just curious about the new model. He offered a test drive just for fun which I appricated. Might have been a sales technique but it made me glad he didn't try to "sell" me.

When I came back months later ready to buy I asked for him specifically. I offered a final price which I had researched and thought fair. He balked on the price for the trade so I walked. Hecalled later and accepted the deal.

How much of that was show I don't know but I'd drive past my neighborhood dealer to give this one my business.

I wonder if salespeople are less likely to play games with us "mature" buyers.

abacomike

snakeweasel said:

venture said:

graphicguy said:

Why would any knowledgeable car buyer allow a car sales person to engage them in a discussion which the sales person intends to use to eliminate and/or identify perceived "objections"? The single most important component of a solid buying strategy is for the buyer to assume control of the process. An essential part of assuming control is control of the discussion.

Old school thinking. The old “I’ll control the sales process”. If control is what you want, roll into the showroom with a wad of Benjamins and yell to anyone who will listen “who wants to sell me a car?”. You want to waste time? Keep trying to work towards controlling instead of getting the car you want at the deal you want. I’ve said this time and again, if you walk into the dealership thinking you’re going to grind, you’ll lose. 1. You don’t know the price you’re going to pay before you walk in the door because you’re focused on grinding that last $50 instead of what you’ll be spending overall 2. What you save on the front end, you’ll give away on the back end. For the last 15-20 years, I figure out what the car is worth and what it can be sold for. I add in my “pre-figured” tax, title and license fees. And, then present that number to the sales person/manager. They can either accept it or reject it. If they reject it, I move on. If they accept it, I just bought a car. They get ONE NUMBER. I don’t care what their doc fee is. I don’t care what addies they may try to charge for. There’s no bumping for extraneous fees in F&I. The number is the number. Negotions are easy. No stress. I’m happy with the deal (since I penciled it) and the dealer is happy with the deal (since they accepted it). It’s quick, too.

I work from a similar standpoint. I usually get my numbers off TrueCar, add 6.25% sales tax, and $300 for license plates, doc fees, etc. That is the number, take it or leave it, thank you very much. The last new truck I bought actually wound up lower than TrueCar. The dealership had an online sales price which was several hundred lower than TrueCar. When I came in, they wanted to add about $1,000 for “dealer add ons” (wheel locks, door edge guards, etc). I politely declined, said, “I will pay your advertised price, plus 6.25%, plus $300. End of story.” After a few minutes of hedging around, they agreed, the deal was made. They had done one thing which I had not seen before. For all of their vehicles, they took the window sticker and laminated it, along with an extra piece with the dealer add ons, all laminated together to look like one document. I guess they think this will make the add ons look more “official”.

That works for me. I'll usually look at TrueCar. Look at their online ads. Nose around their lot after hours to see what their stock situation is (that tells me if they have a little or a lot of what I'm looking at). I don't care how they divy up my number either. Not so much any more, but I used to hear the dealers say that their "doc fee" was required by law. Every time I asked them which law they could point me to outlining that fee, they backed off. I don't even argue with them any more. I make the one offer. That's it.

The “law” is stated: “If you charge a dealer fee, it must be pre-printed on all buyer’s orders and bills of sales and charged to ALL buyers.”  There are no State laws that require dealer fees.

The way a dealer can bypass that fee is to lower the selling price by the amount of the fee.

Not to be argumentative, but I have never been able to find a law that says that. I understand the dealers are protecting themselves from being labeled as discriminatory if they don't charge everyone since, evidently, there have been lawsuits about it.

I did a quick look and couldn't find a law stating that they have to charge everyone the same amount with the doc fee. If someone knows the code please post it. 

If it was an issue of charging everyone the same or be accused of discrimination wouldn't that also apply to the price of the car? 

As for the price of a car, it is not a Fair Trade requirement that vehicles be sold at the same price.  MSRP means “Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price”.  So a car can be sold above or below MSRP.

tjc78

If you were to eliminate tipping at restaurants, service would go way downhill.   

I don’t believe any restaurants would want to pay the servers what they make in tips no matter how much they raise up food prices.  

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

Is it just me or does the 2019 Lexus UX look very ugly?

No, it's ugly.

berri

Ugly - let's raise it up a notch to "butt ugly"

oldfarmer50

tjc78 said:

qbrozen said:

suydam said:

But in the end if it’s a good car it won’t matter. Lots of cars have dumb names. What the hell is an Encore or an Enclave?!

Well, encore is an extra entertaining bit that may happen spontaneoulsy after the real show is over. To me, as for a car name, I think "afterthought." So the Buick baby suv is merely an afterthought.

An enclave is kind of synonymous with sanctuary; an individualized space separated from the crowd. So that actually makes sense.

I drove by a sign for a housing development named "The Enclave". I thought it actually was a good name for a development.

I, for one, could care less what my car is called... I don't recall the name ever influencing my decision either way.

I don't think I would have bought my Mustang if they had named it The Wimpy.

abacomike

oldfarmer50 said:

Guys, the only reason I presented the “overcoming buyer’s objections” is to educate you as to how salesmen are trained.  This way, you enter the new car showroom well prepared for the “modus operandi” of the well-trained salesman.

The question was asked: “How quickly or early on can you tell if a customer is truly a buyer or just a tire kicker?”  If the salesman follows his training model, I would presume he will know who is a buyer or not when there is more than one objection, other than price, that cannot be overcome.

All I was doing was to present to you what to look out for when working with a well-trained professional salesman.  Hope it was informative. 

When I last bought a new car I told the saleman that I wasn't buying that day as I was just curious about the new model. He offered a test drive just for fun which I appricated. Might have been a sales technique but it made me glad he didn't try to "sell" me. When I came back months later ready to buy I asked for him specifically. I offered a final price which I had researched and thought fair. He balked on the price for the trade so I walked. Hecalled later and accepted the deal. How much of that was show I don't know but I'd drive past my neighborhood dealer to give this one my business. I wonder if salespeople are less likely to play games with us "mature" buyers.

Car salespeople are in a different class of salesmen than 10-20 years ago.  They are trained to listen to the customer, determine the features the customer desires, identify objections to buying and are trained how to overcome those objections in a mild-mannered approach.  They are more client oriented than they used to be.  But there are still thousands of old school salesmen still out there trying to make a sale no matter what the customer says.

Modern day dealerships spend a large amount of dollars investing in training of their salespeople.  One large conglomerate of auto sales down here have their own “school” where they employ trainers and technology along with classroom accommodations at their headquarters.

I used to attend conferences in Houston, Chicago, Dallas and Phoenix designed specifically to train trainers.  I attended several each year.

cdnpinhead

The carp nose has been taken to its limit . . . or perhaps not.

qbrozen

Saw a commercial today for a car. I thought "that's not bad looking." Then saw a Toyota badge and thought "nah. I gotta see it again. Must be ugly." As I saw more of the commercial, I decided it is likely the best looking Toyota car in their current lineup. Anybody wanna venture a guess?

abacomike

I preface this post by stating there is nothing of a political nature contained within:


Don’t you just love the return of the daytime and prime time soap operas to TV?  On just about every 24 hour cable news channel and major network’s news programming, the Washington DC soap opera has taken many turns and reported true drama.

How often “art imitates life!”  One reporter stated that if Shakespeare was alive today, he’d be able to write several new Comedies and Tragedies based solely on the last 7 days’ occurrences.  LOL!

abacomike

qbrozen said:

Saw a commercial today for a car. I thought "that's not bad looking." Then saw a Toyota badge and thought "nah. I gotta see it again. Must be ugly." As I saw more of the commercial, I decided it is likely the best looking Toyota car in their current lineup. Anybody wanna venture a guess?

The Avalon, The Touring model.