Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

xwesx said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Probably the transmission causing the delay.

I was going to say the same thing. On turns like that, it is the transmission being in the wrong gear that is causing the delay. I don't care what people say, auto trannies have yet to match the effectiveness of a manual.

Wes, so more like not a fault with the transmission....the car has chosen the wrong gear. Actually, that is exactly what if feels like. It feels like it is in about 3rd when it should have been in 2nd....and, if it was a manual that is what I would put it into.

explorerx4

If it was a manual, you would be replacing the clutch.

Mr_Shiftright

I think he meant that the transmission doesn't respond quickly enough to downshift--so the engine loses revs, and it's revs that spin the turbo. This is a problem that double-up turbos try to address--that is, compound turbocharging, with a small, quick-response turbo mated to a larger, higher pressure one.

This might be a situation where those paddle-shifters would come in handy--as you make a low speed turn, you can thumb your way to a lower gear?

abacomike

28firefighter said:

I was down in Highland Beach this weekend on a very quick turn trip (redeye Friday night, arrived Saturday midday into West Palm Beach, left 7am today) to celebrate a surprise birthday for my grandmother. 

I am not familiar with @abacomike’s hood that much, but given that I drove past Mercedes of Del Ray, I’m guessing I was pretty close!

My whole family flew in, so I rented a large SUV from Budget. Got a Toyota Seqouia that was absolutely trashed inside and out. No other options and the worst customer service I’ve encountered at a rental agency, so had to take it. But woof.  

I'm about 22 miles south of Highland Beach, FL. You are correct - I used to buy my Mercedes vehicles from Mercedes Benz of Delray - but no longer.

I always avoid PBI airport because they just don't have the services or assortment of flights that are available at FLL. As for MIA airport, I haven't been there in over 20 years - but on Decembers 20th, I am taking a friend of mine and his wife to MIA from Boca Raton at about 12:00 noon - thus I can avoid most traffic. They are going to Bolivia and then a quick shuttle to the coast and then a cruise of the eastern Pacific.

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think he meant that the transmission doesn't respond quickly enough to downshift--so the engine loses revs, and it's revs that spin the turbo. This is a problem that double-up turbos try to address--that is, compound turbocharging, with a small, quick-response turbo mated to a larger, higher pressure one.

This might be a situation where those paddle-shifters would come in handy--as you make a low speed turn, you can thumb your way to a lower gear?

Perfect Mr S. I think you nailed it. Sometimes I make a right turn from our side street on to a much faster roadway, I get the green arrow to turn right, but, if I am the last one through the cars to the left of me are ready to jump, and they are catching up to me while my turbo is trying to fire up. Yes, paddle shifters could help I would think. Maybe I should put the car in SPORT mode before the turn....see if that helps?

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

snakeweasel said:

Let's all thank imidazol for making sure the the forums post count stays high.

In the meantime, I'll delete the empty posts.

Do they get deleted from his number of posts too?

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

snakeweasel said:

Let's all thank imidazol for making sure the the forums post count stays high.

I just got banned for spamming. Can you believe that! Me! Spamming?
I hit the post button and no reaction. Waiting for edmunds...
Repeat. etc. Then I get banned for 300 seconds because I had posted 4 times within 60 seconds.
Perfectly sensible.

I had to wait it out to shrink the 3 extras! Sorry about that.

That’s something new. I better watch out and get all my thoughts together for one whopper post instead of a line here and there.

oldfarmer50

xwesx said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Probably the transmission causing the delay.

I was going to say the same thing. On turns like that, it is the transmission being in the wrong gear that is causing the delay. I don't care what people say, auto trannies have yet to match the effectiveness of a manual.

Don’t most auto trannies have adaptive learning functions these days? If driver100spends most of his time driving like a little old lady the tranny may learn not to make easy downshifts because it figures the old dear would never gun it coming out of a turn.

I know when I hypermile the Mustang to see what gas mileage I can squeeze out of it, the performance degrades noticeably because it doesn’t readily downshift. It’s then that I use sport mode until the transmission relearns.

explorerx4

Some cars start out in second gear under most circumstances. This was a few years ago that cars were doing this, so not sure that is still a strategy.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

xwesx said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Probably the transmission causing the delay.

I was going to say the same thing. On turns like that, it is the transmission being in the wrong gear that is causing the delay. I don't care what people say, auto trannies have yet to match the effectiveness of a manual.

Don’t most auto trannies have adaptive learning functions these days? If driver100spends most of his time driving like a little old lady the tranny may learn not to make easy downshifts because it figures the old dear would never gun it coming out of a turn.

I know when I hypermile the Mustang to see what gas mileage I can squeeze out of it, the performance degrades noticeably because it doesn’t readily downshift. It’s then that I use sport mode until the transmission relearns.

It seems at least newer cars learn your driving patterns, and adapt. I usually turn off my auto start/stop button on my E400 and now the engine rarely shuts off even if I forget and leave it on. I'm not sure if the auto transmission in a 2014 C250 is that sophisticated though. But check what Mr S said because I think it is the way the turbo works that causes the lagging. And, that explains why many car makers are now using two turbos.

stickguy

driver100 said:

Stick, I got lost there somewhere, but I gather you are considering selling your car to Carvana if you can get more from them than you would from the dealer when you consider the sales tax savings. How close would the dealer have to be....would you sell to Carvana if the difference was $50, $100, $200.....?

probably a few hundred dollars for the convenience of of just shaking hands, moving my crap, and driving off in the new car.

Mr_Shiftright

And perhaps even electric turbos one of these days--just to give the engine a little low-speed PUFF.

stickguy

For those of you trying to keep up, the wife made it clear that the Elantra needs to go. So, that is what is going. For what is not finalized yet, so you need to subscribe to the newsletter (for you kids, think of it as a printed podcast) if you want to see how that part turns out.

my plan is to nail down a deal that I am happy with, while having Carvana (and I will swing through Carmax too probably) offer in my back pocket. I will get a trade in quote (after the deal is set on the new car) and if they will match or come close enough, trade it in to save on sales tax. If not, I sell it outright to whichever dealer offered the most.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

For those of you trying to keep up, the wife made it clear that the Elantra needs to go. So, that is what is going. For what is not finalized yet, so you need to subscribe to the newsletter (for you kids, think of it as a printed podcast) if you want to see how that part turns out.

my plan is to nail down a deal that I am happy with, while having Carvana (and I will swing through Carmax too probably) offer in my back pocket. I will get a trade in quote (after the deal is set on the new car) and if they will match or come close enough, trade it in to save on sales tax. If not, I sell it outright to whichever dealer offered the most.

Why does your wife want to get rid of YOUR car? What’s wrong with it, such a new car.

explorerx4

@driver100,
Do the rpms build slowly or do they build quickly but the car doesn't accelerate?
Get an ecoboost and you won't have that problem.

ab348

oldfarmer50 said:

Why does your wife want to get rid of YOUR car? What’s wrong with it, such a new car.

I am similarly baffled.

roadburner

driver100 said:

<
It seems at least newer cars learn your driving patterns, and adapt. I usually turn off my auto start/stop button on my E400 and now the engine rarely shuts off even if I forget and leave it on. I'm not sure if the auto transmission in a 2014 C250 is that sophisticated though. But check what Mr S said because I think it is the way the turbo works that causes the lagging. And, that explains why many car makers are now using two turbos.

Twin turbos can be just as prone to lag as a single turbo. The torque curve of my N20 four makes maximum torque from 1450-4800 rpm, the N55 from 1400-4500 rpm. Twin scroll single turbos essentially eliminate lag. I would be surprised if the 1.8 liter four in your car doesn't have a similar torque curve. My guess is that when you take a corner you lift off the gas almost entirely- in which case the transmission probably upshifts a gear or two- so that the transmission has to downshift before you feel noticeable acceleration. If I put my X1 or 2 Series in Eco Pro mode it acts in a similar fashion.

Also, if you tend to "stomp" on the throttle after a corner you are almost certainly doing it wrong. You should carry neutral throttle on turn-in until you hit the apex of the corner- at which point you begin to squeeze on the throttle; as you unwind the wheel you simultaneously add more throttle.

roadburner

xwesx said:

I don't care what people say, auto trannies have yet to match the effectiveness of a manual.

I used to say the same thing- until I drove my M235i with the ZF 8HP. Around town in Comfort or Sport mode it works great, and on the track-with both the car and transmission in Sport+ mode-the autobox does exactly what I would do 99% of the time.

stickguy

my car is the primary family car that we use when travelling (and don't need extra cargo room) or are out together. And she does not care for it.

you do the math!

If she got a new car to replace the RDX (something fancy), then that would also become the family/travel truckster, and she would not care at all what my car was as long as she rarely if ever had to ride in it.

Hope that clears the confusion up.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Do the rpms build slowly or do they build quickly but the car doesn't accelerate?
Get an ecoboost and you won't have that problem.

Explorer, the E400 doesn't have the problem because it has twin turbos. The 2014 C250 has turbo lag, because when you go around the corner the engine isn't revving enough for the turbo to work. Yes, ecoboost may get rid of the problem but it won't be as much fun as driving the C250....the trade off though interesting isn't enough to make me want to switch. A better solution would be to get a C with a six, or get one with twin turbos. But, thanks for the suggestion.

driver100

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Why does your wife want to get rid of YOUR car? What’s wrong with it, such a new car.

I am similarly baffled.

+another one!

driver100

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

<
It seems at least newer cars learn your driving patterns, and adapt. I usually turn off my auto start/stop button on my E400 and now the engine rarely shuts off even if I forget and leave it on. I'm not sure if the auto transmission in a 2014 C250 is that sophisticated though. But check what Mr S said because I think it is the way the turbo works that causes the lagging. And, that explains why many car makers are now using two turbos.

Twin turbos can be just as prone to lag as a single turbo. The torque curve of my N20 four makes maximum torque from 1450-4800 rpm, the N55 from 1400-4500 rpm. Twin scroll single turbos essential eliminate lag. I would be surprised if the 1.8 liter four in your car doesn't have a similar torque curve. My guess is that when you take a corner you lift off the gas almost entirely- in which case the transmission probably upshifts a gear or two- so that the transmission has to downshift before you feel noticeable acceleration. If I put my X1 or 2 Series in Eco Pro mode it acts in a similar fashion.

Also, if you tend to "stomp" on the throttle after a corner you are almost certainly doing it wrong. You should carry neutral throttle on turn-in until you hit the apex of the corner- at which point you begin to squeeze on the throttle; as you unwind the wheel you simultaneously add more throttle.

Great explanation and I will try that. Driving is very treacherous here, so although I can turn on the green arrow I don't trust anyone,,,,,,I go a bit slower to make sure no one has gone through a light, no one is doing a U-turn (which is legal), no police cars or fire trucks are going through the lights, which happens, that the cars to the left actually stopped for a red light and 100 other things that could happen and I have probably seen happen.

Another factor is if I picked up speed too soon with my old Continentals they could slide on the pavement here, so I do take corners a bit slower now. But, I get the feeling the new Michelins will take corners faster.

So, I will try more gas earlier. Should I try sport mode going into the turn too?

driver100

stickguy said:

my car is the primary family car that we use when travelling (and don't need extra cargo room) or are out together. And she does not care for it.

you do the math!

If she got a new car to replace the RDX (something fancy), then that would also become the family/travel truckster, and she would not care at all what my car was as long as she rarely if ever had to ride in it.

Hope that clears the confusion up.

OK stick, ...got it!
Now, what are you hoping to buy or lease (I assume)

explorerx4

@driver100,
Seems like my conclusion of the transmission is now verified, really main culprit is how the computer is programmed to interact with the engine and transmission.
An ecoboost would be less interesting because you wouldn't be watching all those cars pass you while you are struggling up to speed.

explorerx4

If my wife didn't want to drive a different car and we needed something larger, I would sat 'Great we need a 3rd vehicle'.

abacomike

Interesting interview on “60 Minutes” this evening with Elon Musk.  Strange sort of guy who seems slightly affected by or with something I just can’t put my finger on.  He seems to “shoot from the hip”, so to speak.  Hope he succeeds in getting TESLA solvent and out of this serious debt.  So long as the Model 3 keeps selling, he has a fighting chance.

abacomike

Dolphins pulled out a miracle win over the Patriots with a final game play called “Boise” involving a couple of laterals after a successful pass reception with only 4 seconds left in the game.  Has to be the play of the season!

berri

Isn't Musk talking about buying some of the closing GM plants. Methinks he talks a lot!

That was quite the colorful play. I had heard that the Dolphins stadium sort of has a hex on the Patriots historically.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Probably the transmission causing the delay.

I will see what they say next time I take it in. If it is the transmission explorer, that is the only time that it doesn't work perfectly.

What type of transmission is it? Is it a traditional automatic or is it a dual clutch transmission? DCTs anticipates the next year and if it anticipates the wrong year it might be a second delay in getting into the correct gear. This can be eliminated by manually shifting the gears.

snakeweasel

explorerx4 said:

Some cars start out in second gear under most circumstances. This was a few years ago that cars were doing this, so not sure that is still a strategy.

Sort of defeats the purpose of having a first gear, doesn't it?

stickguy

Driver, my guess is it will end up being a lease. The budget to buy something would be about $25,000, and it is doubtful I will find something that pushes all the buttons CPO or slightly used.

used car shopping is just a mentally draining activity now. And practically a full time job. New might cost a little more, but so much easier!

roadburner

driver100 said:

Great explanation and I will try that. Driving is very treacherous here, so although I can turn on the green arrow I don't trust anyone,,,,,,I go a bit slower to make sure no one has gone through a light, no one is doing a U-turn (which is legal), no police cars or fire trucks are going through the lights, which happens, that the cars to the left actually stopped for a red light and 100 other things that could happen and I have probably seen happen.

Another factor is if I picked up speed too soon with my old Continentals they could slide on the pavement here, so I do take corners a bit slower now. But, I get the feeling the new Michelins will take corners faster.

So, I will try more gas earlier. Should I try sport mode going into the turn too?

Thanks! I was talking more about cornering than negotiating intersections.However, sport mode may help; as others have noted, the transmission is probably starting in second gear. Try sport mode; it will likely sharpen the throttle response and might cause the transmission to start in first gear. Funny thing; my wife had a complaint similar to yours when driving her Clubman(no turbo and S L O W)- specifically when pulling out on a main highway. I tried sport mode and that solved the issue. The MINI sport mode affects throttle response as well as the transmission's shift logic.

abacomike

berri said:

Isn't Musk talking about buying some of the closing GM plants. Methinks he talks a lot! That was quite the colorful play. I had heard that the Dolphins stadium sort of has a hex on the Patriots historically.

Could be - hex that is.  High scoring game and lots of fun to watch.  That last play of the game with the 2 laterals is a play they practice each week in training.  They talked about it at the local press conference after the game.  Interesting!

sda

In Sport mode will the trans shift to the highest gear? I like the more responsiveness of Sport mode but once cruising speed is reached it continues to rev too high. Once I put it back to normal, the revs drop.
That has been my exerience with VW and the CVT in my Honda.

roadburner

sda said:

In Sport mode will the trans shift to the highest gear? I like the more responsiveness of Sport mode but once cruising speed is reached it continues to rev too high. Once I put it back to normal, the revs drop.
That has been my exerience with VW and the CVT in my Honda.

It depends on the shift programming; BMWs tend to hold a lower gear.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

my car is the primary family car that we use when travelling (and don't need extra cargo room) or are out together. And she does not care for it.

you do the math!

If she got a new car to replace the RDX (something fancy), then that would also become the family/travel truckster, and she would not care at all what my car was as long as she rarely if ever had to ride in it.

Hope that clears the confusion up.

Here’s your chance to get a Corvette or a Tesla.

oldfarmer50

sda said:

In Sport mode will the trans shift to the highest gear? I like the more responsiveness of Sport mode but once cruising speed is reached it continues to rev too high. Once I put it back to normal, the revs drop.
That has been my exerience with VW and the CVT in my Honda.

In my car the transmission will shift eventually to the highest gear but will hold each gear longer so the engine is in a higher rev situation. Most automatics are programmed for gas mileage in normal mode.

stickguy

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

my car is the primary family car that we use when travelling (and don't need extra cargo room) or are out together. And she does not care for it.

you do the math!

If she got a new car to replace the RDX (something fancy), then that would also become the family/travel truckster, and she would not care at all what my car was as long as she rarely if ever had to ride in it.

Hope that clears the confusion up.

Here’s your chance to get a Corvette or a Tesla.

well, that is certainly 2 different ends of the spectrum! But yes, in theory, if she ends up in a snazzy new car, I can eventually work around to not needing 2 CUVs and convert the old one into a different car for the same price.

ab348

Edmunds made me log in again tonight on the iPad. Once again the login follies continued but this time it was different again. There was a newish screen that asked me to log in but it didn’t accept my (correct) password. So I went to the Edmunds main page, saw that I was logged in there but apparently not here, and clicked on the Automotive Forums link near the bottom. It took me to the old “Howdy Stranger” page. Just for fun I clicked on the login button there which we were told not to do previously. This time it popped up the Edmunds login box that we have had to use for the last few months and here I am. Only the good Lord knows how many variations of this we will have to endure before something actually makes sense and works like it is supposed to.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Seems like my conclusion of the transmission is now verified, really main culprit is how the computer is programmed to interact with the engine and transmission.
An ecoboost would be less interesting because you wouldn't be watching all those cars pass you while you are struggling up to speed.

Roadrunner should reply to that. I don't think the transmission was verified completely. Combination maybe of car not being in the best gear for taking off combined with an earlier turbo which only comes into play when the engine reaches high revolutions......which is hard to do when going around a corner. Turbos are better now, but at the time, that was a drawback - turbo lag.

cdnpinhead

Interesting discussion regarding whether the automatic transmission does what you want. I have a transmission that always does what I want, even if I'm going down a six-mile hill and don't want to use the brakes, or any of many other situations. I may have to keep this car forever.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:

@driver100,
Probably the transmission causing the delay.

I will see what they say next time I take it in. If it is the transmission explorer, that is the only time that it doesn't work perfectly.

What type of transmission is it? Is it a traditional automatic or is it a dual clutch transmission? DCTs anticipates the next year and if it anticipates the wrong year it might be a second delay in getting into the correct gear. This can be eliminated by manually shifting the gears.

It is a regular automatic. Could be selecting gears but it really seems to be no turbo power boost....from what I am finding out and if I understand RBs explanation....turbo can't work if RPMs are too low.

driver100

stickguy said:

Driver, my guess is it will end up being a lease. The budget to buy something would be about $25,000, and it is doubtful I will find something that pushes all the buttons CPO or slightly used.

used car shopping is just a mentally draining activity now. And practically a full time job. New might cost a little more, but so much easier!

Stick, agree and that would be a hard decision. $25,000 and the best car for the money. Lots of choices in that range, finding the best one will be hard. Better take Mrs. Stick with you to make sure she likes it too.

driver100

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

Great explanation and I will try that. Driving is very treacherous here, so although I can turn on the green arrow I don't trust anyone,,,,,,I go a bit slower to make sure no one has gone through a light, no one is doing a U-turn (which is legal), no police cars or fire trucks are going through the lights, which happens, that the cars to the left actually stopped for a red light and 100 other things that could happen and I have probably seen happen.

Another factor is if I picked up speed too soon with my old Continentals they could slide on the pavement here, so I do take corners a bit slower now. But, I get the feeling the new Michelins will take corners faster.

So, I will try more gas earlier. Should I try sport mode going into the turn too?

Thanks! I was talking more about cornering than negotiating intersections.However, sport mode may help; as others have noted, the transmission is probably starting in second gear. Try sport mode; it will likely sharpen the throttle response and might cause the transmission to start in first gear. Funny thing; my wife had a complaint similar to yours when driving her Clubman(no turbo and S L O W)- specifically when pulling out on a main highway. I tried sport mode and that solved the issue. The MINI sport mode affects throttle response as well as the transmission's shift logic.

SPORT MODE in the C250 makes a huge difference too, that will definitely put it into first gear from a start, in most cases a lower gear when in motion. Definitely worth a try.

If I am entering a highway the turbo usually gets it up to speed, if it is a short ramp or extremely fast traffic SPORT mode gives me a big boost too.

driver100

sda said:

In Sport mode will the trans shift to the highest gear? I like the more responsiveness of Sport mode but once cruising speed is reached it continues to rev too high. Once I put it back to normal, the revs drop.
That has been my exerience with VW and the CVT in my Honda.

Good question. Just from memory, it seems that SPORT mode is always one gear lower than regular driving in the C250. In the E400 lots goes on when I select SPORT mode, so I think it could probably jump down 2 or 3 gears if it had to. And, I go back to normal for regular driving so it can get into the highest gear. But what do I know, I am not mechanically inclined, but, it would seem to be the logical thing to do.

stickguy

Driver, Mrs. stick is tired of Mr. Stick I think. She doesn't understand the process of evaluating (over and over!) every option. And pays no attention to my spreadsheets. Especially when she thinks we have a car decided on, and I think of one I forgot about. She seems to think I have commitment issues!

I blame Honcker. Every so often it pops up another deal of the day I had not thought about, but after researching a bit, should be on the list. Got one more newbie for tomorrow. As a bonus, when I went to the dealer site to look at inventory, it popped up one of those "test drive and get a $50 gift card" offers. Seems like karma working to me!

driver100

Stick, You must have a short list, even if it is 10 cars long. What is it about the Elantra that Mrs. Stick doesn't like?
My friend who had a Maserati bought a Fiat for his winter beater......he loved it. His wife heard they didn't do well in the safety tests and she wouldn't go in it so he dumped it.
For what it is worth, I had a rental Elantra and I was really impressed...a lot of car for the money. But, these days I also like as much steel around me as possible too!
Lots to choose from in that mid range....maybe too much. Also, I don't know if buying because of the "deal" you can make is the best reason for buying. If you keep a car for 5 years $1000 or even $2000 more isn't a lot extra to pay, only $400 a year to drive what you really want to drive.
Good luck....sounds like a conundrum!

driver100

ATTENTION: Oldfarmer, I am thinking you probably have a turbo 6 in your Stang right? Try going around a corner and then see what it is like if you stomp it once you turn.
The turn should be one where you slow down to 10 or 20 mph, you coast around, and then give it the gas. See if you experience lag time before the turbo kicks in.

tjc78

FWIW... my wife hates my Elantra too. I don't hate it, but certainly don't love it either. Less than a year left with it. I can do it.

The car only has 13K miles after 25 months.

stickguy

Farmer has a GT, so a big honking V8.

the Elantra? She prefers something roomier (she liked the Sonata for that) and she finds the sport to have too rough a ride. She also complains about no power seats. But mostly, it is a little, high strung (relatively) sporty car with a raspy exhaust and you feel the bumps, that also rides low. Sticking like glue on turns is way down her list of important features.

Basically, everything that Roadburner would like about it, she dislikes.

I can see her point. But, I get to have the fun parts driving it, but recognize it is more basic in some ways, and you know you are on lousy roads when you are on them. On the plus side, it is quick and zippy, and gets really good MPG doing it. But for a 2nd, around town spare car, that (MPG) is not as much of an issue.

and our roads are so bombed out now, we both live in fear of potholes with the skinny little tires. Much more relaxing driving the RDX with big meaty sidewalls!

so a mid sized car/wagon/CUV, with a full boat of luxury features (dual power seats, auto CC, kick butt stereo, a good suite of safety features, a nice ride and relatively quiet, but having enough power to move out when needed would be a much better option for our primary use car now. Something she will be comfortable driving, help with her daily commute on the lousy highway she takes, and be enjoyable to use on long trips and when we are out bopping around. But not something too big, wallowy, or like an isolated marshmallow.