Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

houdini1

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

which would be fine with me so long as the funds are specifically earmarked for roads and bridges.

Agree but the total fuel tax, federal and state, needs to be reserved for vehicular traffic roadways and bridges only.
I saw reports as much as 20% is going to other uses and not for the auto and truck roadways.

The loss of jobs due to the reduction in fracking production is going to slow the economy -- the low oil prices
are not without negative effects. And that's the exact reason for which OPEC is maintaining production. The goal is to put the fracking drillers out of business.

I know that putting the frackers out of biz is supposed to be the result of low oil prices, but how long would they stay out of biz if oil got back to $100. a barrel? Low oil prices are not hurting the big boys and even if some of the small drillers have to pull in their horns for a short time, well, they know how to cope. I think something else is at work here, though not smart enough to know what. Maybe just to derail Russia? Help Obama in the polls?

Mr_Shiftright

What's at work I think is geopolitical. Somebody wants to put the squeeze on somebody else.

driver100

abacomike said:

;But I must admit that this new survey was extensive and well organized in order to extract large amounts of info from the consumer to adequately and fairly assess the performance of every aspect of a customer's experiences at the dealership level.

I settled with Audi on the clutch matter but then I got this bright idea to write to Audi International and tell them about my experience. I wanted to tell them I wasn't impressed with their Canadian division. The idiots said they would look into the matter, sent my email on to the Cdn headoffice for a reply, and they said the case was closed. So, I wrote back and copied Audi Int'l that because they don't stand behind their cars they could have lost a few sales in the future. Nothing is for certain, but, doubtful my wife will want one, the Passat could get traded for something else - depends on what happens to the A4 and Passat, and if I was looking for a mid-size car I probably would have chosen an A4....but, that probably won't happen. Plus over 100 people know about my experience and they'll probably tell others. I called it shortsighted marketing. Car companies worry about their bottom line each quarter, and don't see the big picture.

driver100

imidazol97 said:

Since the collapse of the ramp span above the interstate in Cincinnati is being used for political fodder that we need more gas tax and spending to replace infrastructure..., the ramp had been replaced with a different exit pattern. This ramp was being removed as part of a renovation, so no need for mo' money for this as some "stupid" politicians claim: it was already being replaced.

I just hope I-75 is fixed when we head back the first weekend in April! :@

driver100

I've fallen in love with these little turbo motors in cars today. I think of the one in my car, 2.0L, 272 HP, 295 ft/lb, no turbo lag. That's not far off what a BMW i6 twin scroll turbo puts out. I'm getting 22 MPG just around town. I'm betting I'll get 27-28 MPG on any long trip....in an AWD car that will do 0-60 in less than 6 secs. Amazing.

A new gas tax won't solve anything....at least nothing that will be anywhere near cost effective. A booming economy, with efficient and clean cars, busses and trucks benefits almost everyone.....SIGNIFICANTLY!

GG, good synopsis of cars in general. I would agree cars have come a long way in the last few years. The 2015 is superior to the 2012 535 in so many ways, and yet who would think cars could advance that much in just 3 years, and that's when they were already pretty advanced. Can they keep improving at this rate over the next 3 years?

I have 340 hp and get 24 mpg in mixed driving, over 30 on the highway, and almost 34 in economy mode at a steady speed. My 2004 X3 only got about 20 mpg in mixed driving. That's a huge improvement. Todays cars have better GPSs, rear cameras, blind spot warning, automatic braking, auto light dimming and so much more. Todays cars probably cost less than comparable cars 20 or so years ago, especially if you consider all the extra features. Even the Honda Fit for about $18k has blue tooth, rear camera, heated seats, lots of airbags etc.

We've come a long way. Now if only Audi could come up with a customer satisfaction policy, we'd be set.

driver100

houdini1 said:

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

which would be fine with me so long as the funds are specifically earmarked for roads and bridges.

Agree but the total fuel tax, federal and state, needs to be reserved for vehicular traffic roadways and bridges only.
I saw reports as much as 20% is going to other uses and not for the auto and truck roadways.

The loss of jobs due to the reduction in fracking production is going to slow the economy -- the low oil prices
are not without negative effects. And that's the exact reason for which OPEC is maintaining production. The goal is to put the fracking drillers out of business.

I know that putting the frackers out of biz is supposed to be the result of low oil prices, but how long would they stay out of biz if oil got back to $100. a barrel? Low oil prices are not hurting the big boys and even if some of the small drillers have to pull in their horns for a short time, well, they know how to cope. I think something else is at work here, though not smart enough to know what. Maybe just to derail Russia? Help Obama in the polls?

One report I read said oil won't reach $100 a barrel for at least a decade. That could hurt a lot of the smaller guys...they could go bust. Then the banks could lose a bundle on loans. OPEC is like Wallymart, put everyone out of business until they are last man standing. Cheap oil seems like a good thing, but, it does have some disadvantages, which we don't know about yet.

driver100

fezo said:

Of course no one complains about the library tax but that's because it's a really good bang for the buck tax and librarians as a lot tend to be pretty scrupulous.

I am one person who will complain about the library tax. Here I am trying to make a buck by selling books, and one of my biggest competitors is the public library. What kind of free enterprise system is that?

I like libraries and they are probably a good thing, but, the government I pay taxes to is competing against me.
Maybe people only under a certain income level should be allowed to use libraries.

houdini1

driver100 said:

fezo said:

Of course no one complains about the library tax but that's because it's a really good bang for the buck tax and librarians as a lot tend to be pretty scrupulous.

I am one person who will complain about the library tax. Here I am trying to make a buck by selling books, and one of my biggest competitors is the public library. What kind of free enterprise system is that?

I like libraries and they are probably a good thing, but, the government I pay taxes to is competing against me.
Maybe people only under a certain income level should be allowed to use libraries.

I used to be in our local library on a weekly basis, but since I got one of those new fangled E readers I have only been once or twice in the last 4 years. If you look a little you can find almost any book you want for free or almost free. Bad for writers, good for me.

roadburner

I use our local library a lot for fiction books as well as to browse some of the magazines that I don't subscribe to.

henryn

I have been working in Big Oil for the last 42 years. Only in IT, but I see and hear quite a bit. If you really think that oil will be back at $100 per barrel by the end of this year, you should immediately move your portfolio into oil stocks. You will make a killing. If, that is, if…

The truth is, no one knows what oil prices are going to do. Some talking head on Fox Business News is just blowing hot air out of his nether regions. If he really knew what oil prices were going to do, he would be as rich as Warren Buffet and would have no need to be on TV.

@driver100 , not trying to start a fight, but you really shouldn’t put your personal interests above the general public. Libraries are a good thing. The fact of the matter is that you are in a dying business, and you need to wake up and smell the coffee. I myself like books (physical, hard copy books), but I am probably a part of the last generation who will feel that way. I’m afraid that hard copy books are going to go the way of the buggy whip.

abacomike

I'd be very interested in knowing how much gasoline and diesel fuel was consumed in the US last year in comparison to previous years.  That would shed light on the reason for declining prices on a barrel of oil.  Same would be true for world-wide consumption comparisons.

cdnpinhead

roadburner said:

I use our local library a lot for fiction books as well as to browse some of the magazines that I don't subscribe to.

Somebody needs to, but it'll be interesting to see if libraries go the way of newspapers -- not dead yet, but on life support.

driver100

henryn said:

The truth is, no one knows what oil prices are going to do. Some talking head on Fox Business News is just blowing hot air out of his nether regions. If he really knew what oil prices were going to do, he would be as rich as Warren Buffet and would have no need to be on TV.

@driver100 , not trying to start a fight, but you really shouldn’t put your personal interests above the general public. Libraries are a good thing. The fact of the matter is that you are in a dying business, and you need to wake up and smell the coffee. I myself like books (physical, hard copy books), but I am probably a part of the last generation who will feel that way. I’m afraid that hard copy books are going to go the way of the buggy whip.

henryn, I agree with you about oil prices. I have heard they won't get to $100 a barrel in the next decade, but then who knew it would be under $50 a barrel in 2015? Nothing is as bad as it seems, nothing is as good, and then there are the wild cards like OPEC and Russia. My friend with the Maserati said his wife is happy because they save $50 a week buying gas, he says he lost $100k in the market.

About libraries henryn, I am fully retired so it isn't my problem. The book business has changed dramatically in the last few years, and so has the DVD, CD, phot shop, retail business and many more. I still get industry news letter and E-Books seemed to have stalled at 20% of the market. Seems a lot of people, especially over 40 or 50, still prefer a physical book if they can get it. I have an e-reader but prefer a physical book for some reason.

I don't think libraries were really our competition. Some people like to own the books they read and they like to read them on their own schedule. I think the next generation will probably end up reading only E-books, that is what they will grow up with and know. It seems children's books may take awhile, hard to do sniff and scratch e-books.

driver100

cdnpinhead said:

roadburner said:

I use our local library a lot for fiction books as well as to browse some of the magazines that I don't subscribe to.

Somebody needs to, but it'll be interesting to see if libraries go the way of newspapers -- not dead yet, but on life support.

I never thought of that actually. Used bookstores have become almost extinct. Regular bookstores have to have other products to offer to survive. Do we really need libraries? Probably for awhile because older people still prefer actual books. People studying may not find all they need on the internet. The library can be a good place to do projects and work from. But, once people can find library books online we may not need actual physical libraries. btw, major publishing companies are having a real problem trying to figure out how to control the market and keep their authors signed on. With E-Books major authors can skip the giant publishing houses who made most of the money from their books.

I was reading the other day about whether we will need universities...with a campus. Great instructors could give lectures over the internet. Exams could be taken in one giant centre. Do we really need giant campus's with all those buildings and parking lots? We could save $billions. The best instructors could get huge paying contracts to get students to take their courses. I also read most of the jobs people think they will be doing when they graduate either won't exist or will change so much the knowledge will be almost useless by graduating time. It may be a whole different world in the next few years.

abacomike

driver100 said:

I use our local library a lot for fiction books as well as to browse some of the magazines that I don't subscribe to.

Somebody needs to, but it'll be interesting to see if libraries go the way of newspapers -- not dead yet, but on life support.

I never thought of that actually. Used bookstores have become almost extinct. Regular bookstores have to have other products to offer to survive. Do we really need libraries? Probably for awhile because older people still prefer actual books. People studying may not find all they need on the internet. The library can be a good place to do projects and work from. But, once people can find library books online we may not need actual physical libraries. btw, major publishing companies are having a real problem trying to figure out how to control the market and keep their authors signed on. With E-Books major authors can skip the giant publishing houses who made most of the money from their books. I was reading the other day about whether we will need universities...with a campus. Great instructors could give lectures over the internet. Exams could be taken in one giant centre. Do we really need giant campus's with all those buildings and parking lots? We could save $billions. The best instructors could get huge paying contracts to get students to take their courses. I also read most of the jobs people think they will be doing when they graduate either won't exist or will change so much the knowledge will be almost useless by graduating time. It may be a whole different world in the next few years.

I guess that would seem quite practical until an enemy or a group of idiots begin hacking university sites and disable their networks!!!

driver100

I guess that would seem quite practical until an enemy or a group of idiots begin hacking university sites and disable their networks!!!

Yeh but students won't be able to have frat parties, drink all night, do hazing, do protest marches, etc. I guess football and basketball games may have to change a bit.

Disabled computer networks could be a problem, but that is a problem that affects many facets of our lives, so we will just have to learn how to cope with it.

ab348

The city I live in just opened a $60 million central library. It was cost-no-object all the way, except they are now trying to raise $5 million to buy books, which they seem to have overlooked...




I think it was a ridiculous overspend given the comparatively small number of people who will ever use it. They loaded it up with public access computers, video games, a small auditorium, even a recording studio, justifying it all by repositioning it as a gathering place rather than just a place to get books, magazines and DVDs. I find that there is a hardcore group of library loyalists but most people I know never go near it.

graphicguy

Mike....here are some sources showing the demand for oil declining....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/12/12/oil-demand-slowing-production-booming/20309695/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-12/iea-cuts-global-oil-demand-forecast-for-4th-time-in-five-months.html

The Wall Street Journal has much the same forecast....lower oil demand, with production from shale continuing to erode demand for OPEC's production.

jayrider

I guess that would seem quite practical until an enemy or a group of idiots begin hacking university sites and disable their networks!!!

How about changing grades. Could have used that for my Experimental Psych class back in 1967.

fezo

ab348 said:

The city I live in just opened a $60 million central library. It was cost-no-object all the way, except they are now trying to raise $5 million to buy books, which they seem to have overlooked...




I think it was a ridiculous overspend given the comparatively small number of people who will ever use it. They loaded it up with public access computers, video games, a small auditorium, even a recording studio, justifying it all by re positioning it as a gathering place rather than just a place to get books, magazines and DVDs. I find that there is a hardcore group of library loyalists but most people I know never go near it.

That is the direction I see libraries going and I see it all the time. They seem to figure that making themselves this all purpose community center keeps them relevant. There's some truth to that but at the heart of it for someone seriously looking for things, to separate "well, I saw it on Google" from verifiable facts there's nothing like a librarian. Reference desks are as busy as ever. We had a guy who using only library resources built a multi-million dollar enterprise. Loads of kids from poor backgrounds who use the place as a jumping off point for moving up the ladder. None of that will change.

abacomike

graphicguy said:

Mike....here are some sources showing the demand for oil declining.... http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/12/12/oil-demand-slowing-production-booming/20309695/ http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-12/iea-cuts-global-oil-demand-forecast-for-4th-time-in-five-months.html The Wall Street Journal has much the same forecast....lower oil demand, with production from shale continuing to erode demand for OPEC's production.

Thanks, GG!

driver100

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Our little town got a new $7 million library....it is about 3 blocks from my home. It is also going to be a community centre. It is getting to the point that people used to go to the mall to get some social contact if they needed it....as the malls seem to be less busy maybe people will use the library as their source for social interaction.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

The city I live in just opened a $60 million central library. It was cost-no-object all the way, except they are now trying to raise $5 million to buy books, which they seem to have overlooked...

Wow. Lots of wide open spaces. Nice architectural design--was somebody's friend in the firm that designed it?

ab348

imidazol97 said:

Wow. Lots of wide open spaces. Nice architectural design--was somebody's friend in the firm that designed it?

They brought in architects from Denmark. Just another example of the spending.

abacomike

Wheeler Dealers is on for the new season on Velocity channel.  Mike bought a '57 Thunderbird for Ed China to restore.  Should be a great show.  It just started - take a peek.

Michaell

abacomike said:

Wheeler Dealers is on for the new season on Velocity channel.  Mike bought a '57 Thunderbird for Ed China to restore.  Should be a great show.  It just started - take a peek.

Don't give it away. I'm recording it and will watch it when I get home

sda

abacomike said:

Wheeler Dealers is on for the new season on Velocity channel.  Mike bought a '57 Thunderbird for Ed China to restore.  Should be a great show.  It just started - take a peek.

I'm watching as well. Waiting for some cheeky remark that demeans American cars. Not as bad as Top Gear, but have heard Mike complain about dodgy american electrics more than once. Kind of calling the kettle black? Lucas? I do enjoy these shows, however.

abacomike

sda said:

Wheeler Dealers is on for the new season on Velocity channel.  Mike bought a '57 Thunderbird for Ed China to restore.  Should be a great show.  It just started - take a peek.

I'm watching as well. Waiting for some cheeky remark that demeans American cars. Not as bad as Top Gear, but have heard Mike complain about dodgy american electrics more than once. Kind of calling the kettle black? Lucas? I do enjoy these shows, however.

They just polished the black paint.  They added power windows and power seats.  I really don't remember the '57 Thunderbird very much - I was only 13 years old at the time.

nyccarguy

I've got young children & we make excellent use of the library. My 8 year old reads a book every 1 - 2 nights. He gets into these series books (diary of a wimpy kid, captain underpants, magic tree house). For us to buy them would be expensive & a waste (he usually only reads them once) of money, paper, & space (we've got 5 people living in a 3 bedroom house). My 5 1/2 year old & my 3 year old love going and picking out books for us to read to them at night before bed. They have reading hours for little kids, DVDs & Blu Rays to take out, even passes to our local nature center, various childrens' museums...

abacomike

Next week (Wednesday at 9:00 EST) on the Velocity Channel on Wheeler Dealers, they are restoring an Audi TT.  That should be a hot car to see Ed China work on.

Tonight's show (Thunderbird) was great.  It will be repeated at midnight and again next Wednesday at 8:00 PM EST. 

I watch their show every week.  

thebean

Another vote for libraries.  I use ours an awful lot and love it.  I hate to buy books (I'm cheap), but love to read.  There are so many classics I have enjoyed from the library.  Just as an aside, the library in Marquette, Michigan is fantastic.  More magazines than I have ever seen before - probably 5 times as many as in my local library.  Our hotel was across the street from this library - it was a great place to hang out.

Just to keep this on topic, we took our 2001 Lexus ES300 on this road trip and it still only has 61,000 miles on the odo.

stickguy

I too have it taped. Downside of a very busy year end at work. I am way behind on my shows. I tape too many of the restore it shows now. Need to thin that out.'

Edd always seemed to like the American cars. Of course made fun of the size, but he loves a big V8, and how simple they are!

nyccarguy

Since I'm sticking with the Pilot, my mechanic noted that it needs new front pads & the rotors have to be resurfaced. Do I keep with Genuine Honda Pads ($60?) or go for Brembo Ceramic Pads ($79)?

stickguy

I always ended up going aftermarket for pads. partly because I was never impressed by Honda brake pads. plus I never had the dealer do it.

graphicguy

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

Since the collapse of the ramp span above the interstate in Cincinnati is being used for political fodder that we need more gas tax and spending to replace infrastructure..., the ramp had been replaced with a different exit pattern. This ramp was being removed as part of a renovation, so no need for mo' money for this as some "stupid" politicians claim: it was already being replaced.

I just hope I-75 is fixed when we head back the first weekend in April! :@

Driver....it's already reopened.

Michaell

Another vote for the local library. I'll go down every two or three weeks to pick up some reading material. I buy books, but only on specific subjects or from specific authors. Everything else, I borrow.

Hey, it's my tax money, why shouldn't I use it?

cdnpinhead

Glad to hear that several people are still making use of libraries. Newspapers still exist as well, but the trend is not your friend.

jayrider

nyccarguy said:

Since I'm sticking with the Pilot, my mechanic noted that it needs new front pads & the rotors have to be resurfaced. Do I keep with Genuine Honda Pads ($60?) or go for Brembo Ceramic Pads ($79)?

If the original pads were quiet and gave good service -- why change. When it comes to brakes, I stay with factory parts.

isellhondas

I'll stick with our neighborhood bar!

nyccarguy said:

Since I'm sticking with the Pilot, my mechanic noted that it needs new front pads & the rotors have to be resurfaced. Do I keep with Genuine Honda Pads ($60?) or go for Brembo Ceramic Pads ($79)?

I always stick with OEM pads. A lot of the aftermarket ones are too hard so they make noise. The original pads in my CRV lasted 75,000 miles and they still could have gone longer.

driver100

graphicguy said:

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

Since the collapse of the ramp span above the interstate in Cincinnati is being used for political fodder that we need more gas tax and spending to replace infrastructure..., the ramp had been replaced with a different exit pattern. This ramp was being removed as part of a renovation, so no need for mo' money for this as some "stupid" politicians claim: it was already being replaced.

I just hope I-75 is fixed when we head back the first weekend in April! :@

Driver....it's already reopened.

Thanks for the info GG. In a way I wish it was closed longer so we could stay in Florida until May

Mr_Shiftright

I see some of you understand exactly what a "cartel" does---it is organized not to raise prices, but to destroy competition.

[Deleted User]

nyccarguy said:

Since I'm sticking with the Pilot, my mechanic noted that it needs new front pads & the rotors have to be resurfaced. Do I keep with Genuine Honda Pads ($60?) or go for Brembo Ceramic Pads ($79)?

I've experimented with a variety of aftermarket parts and in most cases have been disappointed unless the manufacturer happens to be the vendor the OEM uses and I'm buying the same part without the OEM name. Unless the Honda pads disappointed you, I'd personally stick with OEM.

The only exceptions I came across were some quality German aftermarket parts for my VW, and a rare instance when an aftermarket designed a better part (such as an aluminum coolant pipe to replace a rusting OEM steel pipe).

henryn

I use Wagner ThermoQuiet brake pads. Look up the part number on Rock Auto, and then compare the price on Amazon, buy from whomever has the lowest total cost (shipping, sales tax, etc, etc). I've never had reason to regret choosing the ThermoQuiet pads. With that said, I highly doubt that you could go wrong with the OEM Honda parts either.

fushigi

Regarding gas taxes, as fuel economy rises, urban sprawl slows, and EVs and PHEVs gain in market share, I think per-gallon fuel taxes will start to give way to a use tax model. Be prepared for more toll roads in the short term and an annual tax based on miles driven in the long term.

Infrastructure & jobs will be needed to do the data collection but ultimately it's the most accurate way for people to pay for what they consume. The rich & the poor are charged at no different a rate than existed under a purely gas-driven tax structure so it can be considered fair.

Right now those who can afford EVs etc. are getting an effective tax break; they aren't paying for the maintenance of the roadway infrastructure that they use.

fezo

A vote for the Brembos here. When we redid the brakes on my wife's Camry we used ceramic pads and slotted discs, It might be a snoozer to drive but that sucker stops! Next time around I'll do the same for the Mazda.

graphicguy

fushigi said:

Regarding gas taxes, as fuel economy rises, urban sprawl slows, and EVs and PHEVs gain in market share, I think per-gallon fuel taxes will start to give way to a use tax model. Be prepared for more toll roads in the short term and an annual tax based on miles driven in the long term.

Infrastructure & jobs will be needed to do the data collection but ultimately it's the most accurate way for people to pay for what they consume. The rich & the poor are charged at no different a rate than existed under a purely gas-driven tax structure so it can be considered fair.

Right now those who can afford EVs etc. are getting an effective tax break; they aren't paying for the maintenance of the roadway infrastructure that they use.

I see where you're going. And it makes sense. Except, EV buyers buy them for the fuel economy and tax breaks. Take away the tax brakes by adding a user tax, and they may as well buy a gasoline powered car.

Besides, where are the tax dollars collected from license fees and taxes paid on car purchases? Those dollars are supposed to pay for our roads.

In short, no taxes raised willy nilly until the other taxes are accounted for and put in the correct hopper (road maintenance).

driver100

It is amazing how cars hold up down here in Florida. Today I saw a 1986 Chev Celebrity Eurosport that was in pretty good condition. I was drawn to it because I had a black 86 Eurosport. It made me think, probably the only thing Euro or sport about it was the name. But basically, it was a pretty good car in it's day.

stever

The number of Suzuki Sidekicks cruising around here is surprising.

roadburner

driver100 said:

It is amazing how cars hold up down here in Florida. Today I saw a 1986 Chev Celebrity Eurosport that was in pretty good condition. I was drawn to it because I had a black 86 Eurosport. It made me think, probably the only thing Euro or sport about it was the name. But basically, it was a pretty good car in it's day.

Back in 1983 when I was flipping my 1979 Arrow GT to buy my 1973 Bavaria, I wound up selling the Arrow to my local Chevrolet dealer. The owner asked what I was buying and I told him; "If you wait a couple of months we'll be getting in a Celebrity Eurosport!" he enthused.
I considered that for all of about one nanosecond...

abacomike

Just got home from having dinner with friends.  The topic of the evening's discussions centered around one of my friend's experiences in buying a new Jaguar XF over the holidays at the end of last month.

He started his research on line at the Jaguar site and then expanded his research to include Edmunds, "Motor Trend" and "Car and Driver."  He said he narrowed his search to the Sport Sedan with an MSRP $58,100.  The car comes fully equipped with no options to select except the paint color - Racing Red, or something like it.

He told me that every dealer he contacted wanted to sell the car for full sticker.  So he decided to go into the dealership closest to him and negotiate a deal at $3000 under MSRP.  The best he could do was $1000 off sticker at his local dealer.  He then went into the two other dealers in the Palm Beach and Broward Counties and got $1200 off sticker at the dealer farthest from where he lived.  The dealership in Northern Broward was willing to discount the car $1500 off sticker.  According to his research, that was below TrueCar's pricing.

He then went back to the dealer closest to him and shared with the manager he could buy the car for $1500 off sticker and said he would buy the car that night for $2000 off sticker.  After some back and forth give and take, he got the price he wanted - $56,000+++.  Since he had no trade, it was an easier transaction.

The reason I bring this up tonight is two-fold:

*It shows how important going out and doing the legwork is to get a reasonable deal on a car that seems to be holding close to MSRP pricing.  Phone calls to dealerships are not as effective as going into the showroom with checkbook in hand.

*Shopping on foot is still an effective modus operandi to buying new cars so long as you have done your research and driven the car.

Personally, I was amazed that the 3.0 L Jaguar XF supercharged V6 Sport Sedan was holding so close to MSRP.  I was of the impression that you could buy them for close to invoice.  I know they are getting improved ratings, but not even BMW and Audi and Mercedes are as difficult to get near invoice pricing as Jaguar.  Sure could have fooled me!