Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

In NY the seller has to sign a form that declares the selling price for tax purposes. Lot of cheating and “gifts” are declared. NY feels that if you can come up with a form that does the same thing (and that buyers forget to get signed) you can cause no end of frustration to the taxpaying public.

https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/st/dtf802.pdf

jipster

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

ab348

Up here the DMV compares the stated value of the purchase to various value guide databases. If it seems out of whack they will reject the stated value and order taxes to be paid on their number. You have the ability to present them with a certified appraisal if you disagree, but that is on your dime to obtain.

driver100

jipster said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

People try to pull that all the time. DOT will look it up....and can probably charge you with fraud or something if out of whack. There may be a specific form these days, I believe in our province you have to get a kit when you sell a used car, and it has a form with the purchase price stated. Here the car also has to pass a safety inspection before you can put on your plates....usually the seller has this done beforehand - good for 30 days, to show the car is roadworthy.

sda

My SIL gave us her TL as a gift to my daughter. No matter, the vehicle tax was based on the ‘black book’ or something similar. The state will get their $$, who knew.

explorerx4

We can transfer a vehicle to a family member without sales tax.
Did that with one that went from CT to WI and no money changed hands between us.
My kids are hoping that continues.

explorerx4

If the next gen of the Corvette is mid engine only and thus much more expensive than the current model, to me it's just an elegant way of killing off the model.
GM doesn't seem to value their 'heritage'. They killed off the Camaro for about a decade.
Corvette isn't immune either and I don't feel good about that.

stickguy

license rules vary by state. NJ is easy. Just need a signed title, and you take it to the DMV office and get transferred to your name. And they don't check, so literally anyone can sign the title and they won't care. bill of sale is just for the buyers piece of mind. And the sellers CYA. Sometimes I forgot to do one, it never mattered.

You technically don't need to have it on your insurance immediately, as long as you have coverage otherwise, I think you are good for a few days at least. Plates, well, let's just say that many cars go home on plates that don't yet belong to it. Heck, I have rolled some with no plates at all!

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

People try to pull that all the time. DOT will look it up....and can probably charge you with fraud or something if out of whack. There may be a specific form these days, I believe in our province you have to get a kit when you sell a used car, and it has a form with the purchase price stated. Here the car also has to pass a safety inspection before you can put on your plates....usually the seller has this done beforehand - good for 30 days, to show the car is roadworthy.

In 1977 I bought a 1975 Grand Prix via private party. It was in great condition. It had a 400 CID V8 engine with the GM 400 automatic transmission and less than 18K miles on it. Nice color combo too (burgundy with a white landau top and white vinyl seats). Just what I was looking for. The guy wanted $4,200 for it and we settled at $3,800. I told him the condition of the sale would be he would say the car was in fair condition and he was selling it for $2,500. He damn near fainted when I said that and he said, "ah, I don't know about that. I don't want to get in trouble". I told him it's done all the time and as long as the selling price was not ridiculous and was in line for the stated condition of the car, there wouldn't be any problem. He finally agreed.

Fast forward to when he met me at my bank (I was getting a small loan for about $1,200 IIRC) and the bank was going to do the paper work for the sale and the transfer of plates, taxes and stuff like that. I'll never forget this; when we got to the point about declaring the selling price, the bank guy pushed his chair away from the desk and said something like, "the two of you can now decide how much you want me to tell the state you are buying the car for. So I can collect the taxes for them. Don't get too crazy about what you are buying it for because I won't go along with that but if it's reasonable I'll go with that price. The state people are thieves when it comes to taxes. They collected taxes on this car when it was sold new, at the full state tax, and now when it is being sold used they are going to collect the same percentage of taxes again and they'll do this until the car is crushed and even that guy will pay the full state tax." The seller looked at me with a half smile on his face and said, "I guess this IS done all the time". Like I said above, we agreed on a selling price of $2,500 and that the car was in fair condition. Never had a problem with that or other purchases via private party or when I sold cars. You just can't get "crazy" about it.

jmonroe

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

People try to pull that all the time. DOT will look it up....and can probably charge you with fraud or something if out of whack. There may be a specific form these days, I believe in our province you have to get a kit when you sell a used car, and it has a form with the purchase price stated. Here the car also has to pass a safety inspection before you can put on your plates....usually the seller has this done beforehand - good for 30 days, to show the car is roadworthy.

Like I said above, we agreed on a selling price of $2,500 and that the car was in fair condition. Never had a problem with that or other purchases via private party or when I sold cars. You just can't get "crazy" about it.

jmonroe

I have recorded this and am sending it to the proper authorities.
Actually, this went on a lot in the beginning, but, I think most states if not all would have a way to figure this out, if people can scam their way out of taxes the government will try and find a way to stop them.

.....and it is unfair a car can be sold 10 times over it's life, and the government collects sales tax each time....who said life or taxes were fair?

driver100

stickguy said:

license rules vary by state. NJ is easy. Just need a signed title, and you take it to the DMV office and get transferred to your name. And they don't check, so literally anyone can sign the title and they won't care. bill of sale is just for the buyers piece of mind. And the sellers CYA. Sometimes I forgot to do one, it never mattered.

You technically don't need to have it on your insurance immediately, as long as you have coverage otherwise, I think you are good for a few days at least. Plates, well, let's just say that many cars go home on plates that don't yet belong to it. Heck, I have rolled some with no plates at all!

Stick, do they take your word on the selling price........for tax purposes? I think most have caught on and have plugged the loop hole.

stickguy

years ago, I sold my 626 (I really should have kept that one, but the rat belts drove me nuts) to my mailman. and I don't even recall if we did a bill of sale, and if so if it was shaved a smidge. But really not much (I didn't sell it for all that much with 90K on it). Either that, or he just claimed some silly low number on the form when he went to register it (they ask you for sales price, but don't require anything from the seller). Some time later, I actually got a letter from the state, flagging it as too low, and asking me to sign off on the price he claimed. Since I wanted to continue to get my mail, I responded that it was correct, and the car "needed a lot of work" or some such. I never heard more about it.

henryn

I don’t know whether this varies by state, but I do know where I live (Texas) I have 7 days to inform my insurance company and apply for coverage on the new car. During that 7 days, I am automagically covered.

Texas used to require a notary, but they dropped that quite a few years back. Now you just sign over the title, fill out and sign an “Application for Texas Title”. Downloadable as a PDF file, includes mileage (odometer statement) and “Sales Tax computation”.

Now as for the need for a bill of sale. Several years ago, I sold a 2008 Passat (back around 2014?). The guy showed up at my house, paid me in cash, I signed the title, filled in the PDF form on my computer, printed it, signed it, and gave it to him. Who needs a bill of sale, I had the cash money, right? Turns out I needed the bill of sale.

Approximately 18 months later, I get a certified letter in the mail. The Texas Toll Road Authority is going to bring suit against me if I don’t pay them $145 in fines and penalties for toll road violations. Huh? WTF? What toll road violations? Seems the guy who bought the Passat never transferred the title. And he has been driving the car with expired license plates (and most likely no insurance). And … going through the EZTag lanes on toll roads with no EZTag.

After going around and around with the toll road authority, and consulting a friend of mine who is a lawyer, it turned out $145 was the easiest way out. The lawyer did advise me to report him to the state, and told me how to do so. Which did pay off eventually. A few months later, the a__ contacted me, wanting to know if I would sign a post dated title transfer. I deleted his email.

stickguy

Driver, my story answers your question. They basically do everyone based on the word of the buyer.

Henry, at least in NJ the plates belong to you, and don't stay with the car. So once they take it away, up to them to register it but they won't be getting tickets on my plates! It is recommended to notify the state though that you sold the car, so they can update in their system just in case.

stickguy

Farmer, my wife hates the Soul (no offense to you!). Just the way it looks. But, I bet I could get her on board with a Venue. Kinda looks like an XC40 Volvo and she really liked that!

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

People try to pull that all the time. DOT will look it up....and can probably charge you with fraud or something if out of whack. There may be a specific form these days, I believe in our province you have to get a kit when you sell a used car, and it has a form with the purchase price stated. Here the car also has to pass a safety inspection before you can put on your plates....usually the seller has this done beforehand - good for 30 days, to show the car is roadworthy.

Like I said above, we agreed on a selling price of $2,500 and that the car was in fair condition. Never had a problem with that or other purchases via private party or when I sold cars. You just can't get "crazy" about it.

jmonroe

I have recorded this and am sending it to the proper authorities.
Actually, this went on a lot in the beginning, but, I think most states if not all would have a way to figure this out, if people can scam their way out of taxes the government will try and find a way to stop them.

.....and it is unfair a car can be sold 10 times over it's life, and the government collects sales tax each time....who said life or taxes were fair?

Unless the state does an immediate inspection of the car being bought, I don't know how they can "figure this out". Remember, these are state employees that just push paper around. If by chance an inspection is done 3 or 4 months down the road, all that you the buyer, has to say is, "I fixed this and I fixed this and I..." I have never heard of the state of PA doing that but if you get "crazy" about the buying price I guess it could happen but the state has to be pretty quick to prove anything.

jmonroe

stickguy

well, if the state tax people decide they want something, and ask for it, the burden is going to be fully on you to prove you don't owe it. And they are not going to make that easy.

jmonroe1

stickguy said:

well, if the state tax people decide they want something, and ask for it, the burden is going to be fully on you to prove you don't owe it. And they are not going to make that easy.

I was never worried about that because I never made up a ridiculous price. Now, did I save a ton of money by doing this? NO, but I got some satisfaction of not paying more tax than I had to.

Too bad you can't do this with dealers.

jmonroe

cdnpinhead

Mr_Shiftright said:

I wonder if he'll keep halving the distant to the wall without ever actually getting there?

Well, the mathematician will tell you that you'll never get there, but the engineer will tell you that you'll get close enough. The version of this I first heard had to do with the length of one's member, but of course, we shouldn't go there.

jipster

Thx for the comments everyone. I remember a 94 Nissan Altima I sold to a guy private party many moons ago. He.paid me in cash before the transfer.. When we went to the County Clerks office, he asked if I would mind.putting the purchase.price of the car something like $700 less,.so he could save.some tax.money. I was a young guy...so I did it.

Edmunds TMV is about 2 grand less than KBB on that Mercury Milan. So putting a.purchase price of a grand less, than my purchase price, shouldn't be unreasonable. Not sure where.bank loans values and taxable value come into play. And not that I'm advocating anything illegal...or saying I'll do so . I'm mainly just wanting to protect myself. ;-)

venture

Speaking of the state getting their money...

Pennsylvania decided to stop sending you a certificate and a sticker to put on your license plate when you register your car every year. After you paid the fee, you can print out your certificate. No more stickers on the plate. I don't know how the police were going to know if the car is registered or not; if they scan every plate they see?

Anyway - It was supposed to save $3million a year. It ended up costing $23million (or $32m, I don't remember) because people just didn't register their cars.

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

People try to pull that all the time. DOT will look it up....and can probably charge you with fraud or something if out of whack. There may be a specific form these days, I believe in our province you have to get a kit when you sell a used car, and it has a form with the purchase price stated. Here the car also has to pass a safety inspection before you can put on your plates....usually the seller has this done beforehand - good for 30 days, to show the car is roadworthy.

Like I said above, we agreed on a selling price of $2,500 and that the car was in fair condition. Never had a problem with that or other purchases via private party or when I sold cars. You just can't get "crazy" about it.

jmonroe

I have recorded this and am sending it to the proper authorities.
Actually, this went on a lot in the beginning, but, I think most states if not all would have a way to figure this out, if people can scam their way out of taxes the government will try and find a way to stop them.

.....and it is unfair a car can be sold 10 times over it's life, and the government collects sales tax each time....who said life or taxes were fair?

Unless the state does an immediate inspection of the car being bought, I don't know how they can "figure this out". Remember, these are state employees that just push paper around. If by chance an inspection is done 3 or 4 months down the road, all that you the buyer, has to say is, "I fixed this and I fixed this and I..." I have never heard of the state of PA doing that but if you get "crazy" about the buying price I guess it could happen but the state has to be pretty quick to prove anything.

jmonroe

All I know JM is they look it up and if the price doesn't sound logical they will charge you the printed rate....using KBB or some guide. I have seen people on Hot Bench that sold cars and greatly undervalue them to avoid taxes......and they look up the price if it looks suspicious. And if it looks like they are scamming the government, they get pretty annoyed and threaten to give the information to the State authorities....fraud! I learn a lot watching those judge programs.

Any jurisdiction that would take the word of the buyer or seller is naive....how many people are going to report the full cost and pay $200 or $300 more if they don't have to?

driver100

jipster said:

Thx for the comments everyone. I remember a 94 Nissan Altima I sold to a guy private party many moons ago. He.paid me in cash before the transfer.. When we went to the County Clerks office, he asked if I would mind.putting the purchase.price of the car something like $700 less,.so he could save.some tax.money. I was a young guy...so I did it.

Edmunds TMV is about 2 grand less than KBB on that Mercury Milan. So putting a.purchase price of a grand less, than my purchase price, shouldn't be unreasonable. Not sure where.bank loans values and taxable value come into play. And not that I'm advocating anything illegal...or saying I'll do so . I'm mainly just wanting to protect myself. ;-)

Are you going to get a bill of sale? If the figure you give for the cost of the car is different, and if you need to produce that bill of sale one day....you may get caught.

What happens if you buy a car for $10000, go to license place and say you paid $6000, you get your license, and then your car gets T-boned and totaled the next day. And you tell your insurance company the car has to be worth $10k because that is what I paid, but the official records show you paid $6000?

abacomike

venture said:

Speaking of the state getting their money... Pennsylvania decided to stop sending you a certificate and a sticker to put on your license plate when you register your car every year. After you paid the fee, you can print out your certificate. No more stickers on the plate. I don't know how the police were going to know if the car is registered or not; if they scan every plate they see? Anyway - It was supposed to save $3million a year. It ended up costing $23million (or $32m, I don't remember) because people just didn't register their cars.

Must be dyslectic?  23 or 33 - hmmm.  Better check that out venture! 

dino001

venture said:

Speaking of the state getting their money...

Pennsylvania decided to stop sending you a certificate and a sticker to put on your license plate when you register your car every year. After you paid the fee, you can print out your certificate. No more stickers on the plate. I don't know how the police were going to know if the car is registered or not; if they scan every plate they see?

You know there are such things as computers, databases, wireless transmission?

In the UK they have completely paperless vehicle registration system, so drivers don't carry any registration documents with them. The police have instant access to their databases. Not sure if it extends to the insurance, or if it's just registration.

imidazol97

I'm just appalled, appalled mind you, at the scamming on the purchase price for state sales tax purposes that has been mentioned here!

I recall when I sold the Mustang Pace Car, the payment was in the form of a cashier's check, so the purchase price was well documented. We did the transfer at the bank locally of the company that issued the cashier's check from the purchaser's father, who provided the money. The bank verified for me that the check was authentic.

I believe I received cash and took that to my own flavor or bank branch. I received more for it than it was declared for income tax purposes months earlier by my CPA. Thanks to him, wherever he is. He taught me well in the few years he did my taxes.

The transfer of a vehicle title within a family in Ohio is permitted with no sales tax up to $40,000 IIRC. That may be an annual limit. I'd have to do some research. I transferred the Cruze to my son and got it out of my name. I purchased it while he was at work. Having him go in to the dealer would have delayed the purchase. And he would have had to buy temporary plates to leave the store.

We met on a Saturday at the auditor branch office which is adjacent (almost) to a branch of the license plate office, so Imid Jr left with a title and new plates in his own name. No sales tax.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

driver100 said:

I forget.....did you actually take the car out for a test drive? I have seen Hot Bench shows where the car was driven slowly around the block, then didn't make it home once on the highway. I think it would be reasonable to take it on a really good test run before buying....if you haven't done that...like I say I forget what happened during the showing.

I agree with firefighter.........get a bill of sale, you may need that to register and pay tax. If they say "sold as is" on the bill of sale it will be hard to undo the sale. I wonder who is the actual owner....the TV lady or the guy?

You may have to have insurance lined up to drive the car home etc.

Better find out, my days of buying privately are way in the past.

Yes, I took car on test drive for about 20-25 minutes, about 15 minutes on the expressway. Drove well.

On the bill of sale, I believe that's suppose to be notarized, or recommended? If I remember correctly, last guy I bought private party had us meet at my bank, bank cut him a check, filled out a bill of sale, notarized, filled out title, title and keys handed to me, I then transferred car into my name at the county clerks office. I think that's how it went down. I trust the guy, but you never know.

Thx for comments everyone. And yes oldfarmer, the pretty young news anchor (turns out she's one of those "on the scenes" reporter) not being able to contain herself is my fear. ;-)

In NY I’ve never needed a bill of sale to register a car. The title is enough, even an out of state title. A bill of sale alone wouldn’t be accepted except on antiques maybe. Is it different in your state? I would think a bill of sale would only be relevant if there were other considerations besides a simple change of ownership.

The bill of sale is a good idea just to summarize the transaction. It lists the selling price which may be useful if you have to pay tax on the purchase, may be useful in case of a lawsuit. It gives the seller a chance to say "sold as is". It cements what the deal was and how much was actually paid, none of that appears on the ownership. Signatures can be forged, a bill of sale makes that difficult since both parties will have a copy. Nothing to lose by doing it, could be protection for one of the parties.

If the guy just signed the title, and nothing else, what would keep me from saying the .purchase price was $3,000 and.paying less in taxes?.Also, the guy still has Indiana plates on his car, so it will need.to be inspected by the Sheriffs office.

People try to pull that all the time. DOT will look it up....and can probably charge you with fraud or something if out of whack. There may be a specific form these days, I believe in our province you have to get a kit when you sell a used car, and it has a form with the purchase price stated. Here the car also has to pass a safety inspection before you can put on your plates....usually the seller has this done beforehand - good for 30 days, to show the car is roadworthy.

Like I said above, we agreed on a selling price of $2,500 and that the car was in fair condition. Never had a problem with that or other purchases via private party or when I sold cars. You just can't get "crazy" about it.

jmonroe

I have recorded this and am sending it to the proper authorities.
Actually, this went on a lot in the beginning, but, I think most states if not all would have a way to figure this out, if people can scam their way out of taxes the government will try and find a way to stop them.

.....and it is unfair a car can be sold 10 times over it's life, and the government collects sales tax each time....who said life or taxes were fair?

Unless the state does an immediate inspection of the car being bought, I don't know how they can "figure this out". Remember, these are state employees that just push paper around. If by chance an inspection is done 3 or 4 months down the road, all that you the buyer, has to say is, "I fixed this and I fixed this and I..." I have never heard of the state of PA doing that but if you get "crazy" about the buying price I guess it could happen but the state has to be pretty quick to prove anything.

jmonroe

All I know JM is they look it up and if the price doesn't sound logical they will charge you the printed rate....using KBB or some guide. I have seen people on Hot Bench that sold cars and greatly undervalue them to avoid taxes......and they look up the price if it looks suspicious. And if it looks like they are scamming the government, they get pretty annoyed and threaten to give the information to the State authorities....fraud! I learn a lot watching those judge programs.

Any jurisdiction that would take the word of the buyer or seller is naive....how many people are going to report the full cost and pay $200 or $300 more if they don't have to?

I don't know why you refuse to read what I said about claiming a car is sold for less than it actually was. I didn't say to go "crazy" (I keep using that word because that is what the bank guy said when I was buying my '75 Grand Prix used in 1977). As long as the buying price supports the condition of the car, you don't have anything to worry about. In my case I claimed the car was in "fair" condition (not excellent) and that is why I said I paid $2,500 and not the $3,800 I actually paid. In 1977 the PA tax rate was 6% (it's now 7% in the county I live in thanks to the two professional ball parks that were built in the early 2000's). So, I saved a whopping $91. Did I get rich doing that? Hell no, but it was enough to buy a couple nice dinners at that time and more importantly to me was the fact that I didn't want to give the state more money than I had to.

Now if you want to get paranoid about having the car totaled on the way home from the bank, yeah, I guess I might lose out if that happened. While I might be paranoid I ain't that paranoid. There are chances you have to take in life and that is one I'm willing to take and have taken a few times.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

stickguy said:

well, if the state tax people decide they want something, and ask for it, the burden is going to be fully on you to prove you don't owe it. And they are not going to make that easy.

In my experience tax collectors have to prove the tax is owed. When the tax man comes a knocking they usually have something that supports a tax being owed. The question then becomes how legit is that support. 

jmonroe1

venture said:

Speaking of the state getting their money...

Pennsylvania decided to stop sending you a certificate and a sticker to put on your license plate when you register your car every year. After you paid the fee, you can print out your certificate. No more stickers on the plate. I don't know how the police were going to know if the car is registered or not; if they scan every plate they see?

Anyway - It was supposed to save $3million a year. It ended up costing $23million (or $32m, I don't remember) because people just didn't register their cars.

I never heard that before but I can believe it. It almost sounds like the scofflaws got a lobby to represent them in getting that "no license plate sticker thing" through the PA senate. And to think, we pay taxes for that kind of intelligence. Well, at least when it comes to paying the PA DMV taxes, I have found a way to lessen that burden.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

jmonroe1 said:

I don't know why you refuse to read what I said about claiming a car is sold for less than it actually was. I didn't say to go "crazy" (I keep using that word because that is what the bank guy said when I was buying my '75 Grand Prix used in 1977). As long as the buying price supports the condition of the car, you don't have anything to worry about. In my case I claimed the car was in "fair" condition (not excellent) and that is why I said I paid $2,500 and not the $3,800 I actually paid. 

As a tax accountant and a CPA I do advise not going on a public forum and announcing to the world that you are committing tax fraud.

jmonroe1

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

I don't know why you refuse to read what I said about claiming a car is sold for less than it actually was. I didn't say to go "crazy" (I keep using that word because that is what the bank guy said when I was buying my '75 Grand Prix used in 1977). As long as the buying price supports the condition of the car, you don't have anything to worry about. In my case I claimed the car was in "fair" condition (not excellent) and that is why I said I paid $2,500 and not the $3,800 I actually paid. 

As a tax accountant and a CPA I do advise not going on a public forum and announcing to the world that you are committing tax fraud.

I'll take my chances. jmonroe is just my user name in here and I doubt that Edmunds is going to rat me out unless the state of PA makes it worth their while. At least I hope that's the case. And even then this type of fraud probably has a statute of limitation on it. Again, just hoping.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

We've already turned you in---nothin' personal.

henryn

Texas used to just "take your word" on the amount paid, but they stopped that practice many years ago. These days, it's very easy to find out the minimum amount that you can get away with.

https://txdmv.gov/spv-calculator

It's called the "standard presumptive calculator".

Texans who buy a used vehicle from anyone other than a licensed vehicle dealer are required to pay motor vehicle sales tax of 6.25 percent on the purchase price or standard presumptive value (SPV), whichever is the highest value.

SPV applies wherever you buy the vehicle, in Texas or out of state. A vehicle's SPV is its worth based on similar sales in the Texas region. The Texas Legislature passed the law in 2009 to raise additional revenue to fund Texas schools. Black Book, the national guide that provides the values, uses an average wholesale used vehicle value based on Texas sales data. You can preview the full SPV of a used vehicle by entering the vehicle identification number (VIN) and odometer reading (not needed for motorcycles) in the boxes below.

Values are updated weekly.
SPV should be used for estimation purposes only.
Actual sales tax due is calculated at the county tax office when the title transaction is submitted.
If a value for a late-model vehicle is not available, tax is based on the purchase price.
This SPV calculator does not contain mileage adjustments for vehicles older than 2005.
If you paid less than the standard presumptive value for your vehicle, you may pay sales taxes on an appraisal amount provided it is certified by a licensed insurance adjuster or a licensed motor vehicle dealer; and obtained within 20 working days of the date of purchase.

Mr_Shiftright

California DMV seems pretty blase if you don't try to really jack them. I have had to do appraisals for people on the sale of very expensive cars, but rarely is this necessary. They just don't challenge all that much.

But of course, when they see "Ferrari" their little ears go up like police dogs on the alert.

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

I don't know why you refuse to read what I said about claiming a car is sold for less than it actually was. I didn't say to go "crazy" (I keep using that word because that is what the bank guy said when I was buying my '75 Grand Prix used in 1977). As long as the buying price supports the condition of the car, you don't have anything to worry about. In my case I claimed the car was in "fair" condition (not excellent) and that is why I said I paid $2,500 and not the $3,800 I actually paid. 

As a tax accountant and a CPA I do advise not going on a public forum and announcing to the world that you are committing tax fraud.

I'll take my chances. jmonroe is just my user name in here and I doubt that Edmunds is going to rat me out unless the state of PA makes it worth their while. At least I hope that's the case. And even then this type of fraud probably has a statute of limitation on it. Again, just hoping.

jmonroe

I did read your earlier post and I did get it......I don't know where the cut off point is between paying the full tax and cheating a little bit. I doubt if the IRS sees a small scam as just taking back the money you overpaid on your other taxes.

I have sent the IRS as much information as I can....I am hoping they pay me a good bounty.

28firefighter

WA uses a book value to compare against sale price. As long as you're within the realm of what they consider reasonable, whatever you report is fine for tax purposes.

When I bought the Viggen, the WA DOL felt the sale price was too low and asked for a written justification from me. So I outlined all of the things it needed on the registration application and went on my way. Never heard any follow-up.

ruking1

We posted 41 mpg for 210 miles coming (mountains downgrade, computer) out of South Lake Tahoe, CA., normally 36 to 38 mpg. The A/C ran the whole time/mileage. So if I were to fuel solely for the trip, I would SWAG it at 39 MPG. The weather UP/BACK/there was terrific beyond description. Easter Day traffic was very good. The only bottlenecks were those created by the traffic authorities. I hope everyone had a great Easter holiday!

snakeweasel

well the Sebring is at the dealer as the top got stuck and needs to be fixed. I am hoping for a cheap and easy fix as I hate to put a lot into an 11 year old car especially if it's not to keep it running. 

28firefighter

@snakeweasel - Just get one of those umbrella hats and a parka for winter.

snakeweasel

28firefighter said:

@snakeweasel - Just get one of those umbrella hats and a parka for winter.

Well the top is up so no issues there. I would be OK driving it with the top up all the time but she who must be obeyed wants the top to go down.

stickguy

this weekend was talking to my BIL that has a Cobra kit car. It came with some crude erector set of a top that I don't think he has ever used. So, getting caught in the rain is less than desirable. He carries a big golf umbrella in the trunk for emergencies. He said it is actually just big enough to cover the whole cockpit. Just can't drive very fast with it up! But fine for waiting out a shower.

Can't imagine how squirrely that car would be in the wet (500+ HP and about 2,000 #s I think, and zero electronic helpers). Apparently a Rousch 427 engine can spin the tires in any gear at any speed.

ruking1

snakeweasel said:

28firefighter said:

@snakeweasel - Just get one of those umbrella hats and a parka for winter.

Well the top is up so no issues there. I would be OK driving it with the top up all the time but she who must be obeyed wants the top to go down.

??? Why would one have a convertible top that cannot go up/down? In my environs a convertible makes almost no sense.

snakeweasel

ruking1 said:

28firefighter said:

@snakeweasel - Just get one of those umbrella hats and a parka for winter.

Well the top is up so no issues there. I would be OK driving it with the top up all the time but she who must be obeyed wants the top to go down.

??? Why would one have a convertible top that cannot go up/down? In my environs a convertible makes almost no sense.

I dont want one where the top cant go up or down, but since the car is paid for and is running well I wont dump it just because the tops not working, especially since it practically is just a commuter car for me now.

ruking1

stickguy said:

this weekend was talking to my BIL that has a Cobra kit car. It came with some crude erector set of a top that I don't think he has ever used. So, getting caught in the rain is less than desirable. He carries a big golf umbrella in the trunk for emergencies. He said it is actually just big enough to cover the whole cockpit. Just can't drive very fast with it up! But fine for waiting out a shower.

Can't imagine how squirrely that car would be in the wet (500+ HP and about 2,000 #s I think, and zero electronic helpers). Apparently a Rousch 427 engine can spin the tires in any gear at any speed.

In addition to the car being super light, tires for it are normally NOT for all weather. Too bad no TREMEC 6/7 speed. Even with that 6 speed transmission, I drove a 2001 Z06 Corvette (hard top, 3,050 #’s 385 hp/# ft torque) from Las Vegas, NV to Grand Canyon, AZ in a full driving rain. Naturally I slowed down a bit😜👀. Puddles are BAD for tires made for massive DRY traction. I’ve had it in the CO Rockies (7,126 ft) during an unexpected snow/sleet storm. It doesn’t have rain or snow tires.

ruking1

snakeweasel said:

ruking1 said:

snakeweasel said:

28firefighter said:

@snakeweasel - Just get one of those umbrella hats and a parka for winter.

Well the top is up so no issues there. I would be OK driving it with the top up all the time but she who must be obeyed wants the top to go down.

??? Why would one have a convertible top that cannot go up/down? In my environs a convertible makes almost no sense.

I dont want one where the top cant go up or down, but since the car is paid for and is running well I wont dump it just because the tops not working, especially since it practically is just a commuter car for me now.

Thanks for the feed back. A 2008 car is a baby! I’ll be sure to bypass new/used Chrysler products. 😩 If we used it here for commuting, it would have app 198,000 miles. What’s the mpg?

Paid for cars are sweet music!

The last diesel’s we’ve had mpg ranges from 50, 42, 36, 32 mpg. One family member still has the 50 mpg, with us having the 36 mpg fuel guzzler. The 42, 32 mpg ones were bought back by VW.🤑😩

snakeweasel

ruking1 said:

ruking1 said:

28firefighter said:

@snakeweasel - Just get one of those umbrella hats and a parka for winter.

Well the top is up so no issues there. I would be OK driving it with the top up all the time but she who must be obeyed wants the top to go down.

??? Why would one have a convertible top that cannot go up/down? In my environs a convertible makes almost no sense.

I dont want one where the top cant go up or down, but since the car is paid for and is running well I wont dump it just because the tops not working, especially since it practically is just a commuter car for me now.

Thanks for the feed back. A 2008 car is a baby! I’ll be sure to bypass new/used Chrysler products. 😩 If we used it here for commuting, it would have app 198,000 miles. What’s the mpg? The last diesel’s we’ve had mpg ranges from 50, 42, 36, 32 mpg. One family member still has the 50 mpg, with us having the 36 mpg fuel guzzler. The 42, 32 mpg ones were bought back by VW.🤑😩

Nothing wrong with the mechanics of the car, it runs good for being 11 years old. Yes its showing its age but nothing you really wouldn't expect for over 135k miles. The only thing wrong is with the top operating, other than that it's working well.

As for MPG I am getting 21 or so in my suburban, 50%+ rush hour traffic driving. Most of my trips with it currently are under 15 miles. I haven't taken it on any significant highway driving in a few years but last long distance trip I took via the interstate I was on the low 30's.

Overall the car has been pretty good, just wish I had better gas mileage in the city.

ruking1

Thats great!

I’d leave the top up also! I would anyway, the majority of the time, if I had a convertible. I personally find the NON hermetically sealed feeling more tiring.

With diesel, we get 36 to 38 mpg in one of the most acknowledged horrendous commute traffic in the nation. 28 miles, which would/should take 30 minutes, (door to door) but @ normal commute traffic, 60 minutes closer to 120 minutes. X 2 per day.

We get app the same 36 mpg to 38 mpg in highway speeds/traffic. That’s only one reason why diesels work for us. Staying under 80 mph, we posted 41 mpg for app 210 miles highway traffic. (earlier post) I’m not sure what we’d get @ the sweet spot diesel RPM, speed limit (65 mph), or minus -5/10 mph under. zzzzzzzzzz😴

A TMI here. Cars run optimally @ HIGHWAY operation for 40 minutes to 60 minutes UNinterrupted. If a car is more of a convenience, battery charger use is better than the occasional start up to less than 1 hr. driving.

ab348

Speaking of government DMVs and the things they do, we have a story up here that just will not go away.

Nova Scotia has had a vanity plate program for many years. If you want to spend a few hundred dollars extra, you can request a license plate that instead of the regular letter/number combo has a word, a name, or an abbreviated phrase on it. Lots of other states and provinces have something similar.

Not all words or abbreviations are acceptable though. In NS there is a list of rejected applications. Since this software won't let me put in a live link any more, you can go here to see them:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5780119-TIR-Prohibited-Licence-Plates.html

Here's where it gets silly. There is a citizen here who has had his last name as his vanity plate for many years. He is of German ancestry and the family name is "Grabher", so that's what he had. When it came up for renewal last time around, the new Registrar of Motor Vehicles (a woman this time) rejected it as being offensive because "it supports sexual violence against women", as she read it as "Grab Her". He appealed, it was denied, so he took them to court. It has been dragging through the system for over two years. He has attracted lots of support, from people who have printed up bumper stickers and novelty front plates with the name, to taking out billboard ads himself showing billboard-sized images of his actual plate. Government being what it is, rather than sitting down and either saying they screwed up or working out some kind of deal, they have dug in their heels and are spending a fortune defending the decision. It's back in court this week:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4425485/lorne-grabher-hearing-postponed/

And we wonder why taxes are so high.

snakeweasel

ruking1 said:

Thats great! I’d leave the top up also! I would anyway, the majority of the time, if I had a convertible. I personally find the NON hermetically sealed feeling more tiring. With diesel, we get 36 to 38 mpg in one of the most acknowledged horrendous commute traffic in the nation. 28 miles, which would/should take 30 minutes, (door to door) but @ normal commute traffic, 60 minutes closer to 120 minutes. X 2 per day. We get app the same 36 mpg to 38 mpg in highway speeds/traffic. That’s only one reason why diesels work for us. Staying under 80 mph, we posted 41 mpg for app 210 miles highway traffic. (earlier post) I’m not sure what we’d get @ the sweet spot diesel RPM, speed limit (65 mph), or minus -5/10 mph under. zzzzzzzzzz😴 A TMI here. Cars run optimally @ HIGHWAY operation for 40 minutes to 60 minutes UNinterrupted. If a car is more of a convenience, battery charger use is better than the occasional start up to less than 1 hr. driving.

I rather like the open air feel, but since we got the motorcycle it's used in good weather over the convertible. So having the top down is rare now. 

Now as far as MPG goes the bike is great. Its sweet spot is right around 65MPH where I am getting 70+ MPG. Once I get on the interstate and keep up with traffic it starts to drop real quick. Overall I am just under 65 MPG since I got it. 

ruking1

So you are making a strong case for selling the car, & commuting in the motorbike? What stops you from doing the 12,000 miles per year, you put on the car to bike? @ 75 mpg you’d only use 160 gals.

For me, a motorcycle was not an option after I fully digested (I still love them, as I cut my helmet less chops on old school HD’s, touring bikes & so called crotch rockets) why my folks (54 years ago) were so against them. In my life, I’ve only known 3 folks that died due to motor vehicle operations. Three of them were due to motorcycles. Two died with FULL BIKE PROTECTION in use. RIP. Governments stats also indicate motorcycle operations have epidemic fatality & injury/accident rates. Most motorcycle drivers are woefully under insured.