Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

suydam

All the reviews say the Trax/Encore is slow to accelerate but I haven't found that to be the case at all. The turbo is really punchy -- and the HR V doesn't have one. It's kind of a headscratcher for me.

Michaell

I've heard that GM may be revamping the 1.4L turbo engine used in multiple models to make more power (150HP, IIRC)

bwia

Downloaded Windows 10 to my 2-year old Toshiba Laptop. It's an upgrade from Windows 8.1.

I am a little bit surprised as my desktop looks the same except for the addition of the Start button. So far it looks easy enough but the first prompt I had was to make Chrome my default browser. I want to make Edge (Explorer) my default browser but Chrome says Norton does not as yet support extensions so online browsing may not be safe with Edge.

Before making changes I will wait on my tech wiz kid, my granddaughter. She is so good at these that she makes me feel like a dinosaur. Will report on my progress later.

Mr_Shiftright

Nope, Mazda CX-3 took the prize. C&D found HR-Vs torque lacking as well. It has 21 less ft lb torque than the gutless Trax and the HR-V's torque peaks out way higher. The Soul placed second. I don't think VW markets a "tiny ute" right now.

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

Nope, Mazda CX-3 took the prize. C&D found HR-Vs torque lacking as well. It has 21 less ft lb torque than the gutless Trax and the HR-V's torque peaks out way higher. The Soul placed second. I don't think VW markets a "tiny ute" right now.

But the Golf Sportswagon gets excellent reviews....and is actually fun to drive!



4 Stars out of 5 for Golf Sportswagon

driver100

If I install Windows 10 do all my settings and cookies type things get saved or do I have to redo them?

stever

Cool, looking forward to seeing the CX-3. Glad to hear my favorite came in high. And I'm stubborn - the Soul is a hatch, LOL.

houdini1

driver100 said:

If I install Windows 10 do all my settings and cookies type things get saved or do I have to redo them?

All of mine were saved and it was seamless. I did have to import my bookmarks from Chrome to Edge, but I kept Chrome as my default. The installation is rather long, an hour plus. Frankly, I didn't have a problem with 8.1 and haven't noticed a lot of difference.

Mr_Shiftright

I think C&D were interested mostly in AWD vehicles as part of the comparo although the Soul isn't.

I've read a few other CX-3 vs. HR-V reviews and they all say the same thing. The CX-3 is fun and the HR-V isn't.

driver100 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Nope, Mazda CX-3 took the prize. C&D found HR-Vs torque lacking as well. It has 21 less ft lb torque than the gutless Trax and the HR-V's torque peaks out way higher. The Soul placed second. I don't think VW markets a "tiny ute" right now.

But the Golf Sportswagon gets excellent reviews....and is actually fun to drive!



4 Stars out of 5 for Golf Sportswagon

qbrozen

houdini1 said:

In todays autos most ACs will freeze you to death. I wonder if something was wrong with the HRVs AC.

The Fit's AC is weak, so I'm not surprised.

imidazol97

bwia said:

Downloaded Windows 10 to my 2-year old Toshiba Laptop. It's an upgrade from Windows 8.1.

I'm debating trying to upgrade my 9-year old HP Pavilion laptop(AMD Turion ML37 (2 GHz)) to 10 if it will try.
Currently Win XP Pro version used for Media Center. I have a copy of Win 7 that I can try installing on it first.

As for my other two laptops, I think I'll clone each one to a spare hard drive. Then if I don't like Win 10, I can just clone my original drive back onto each.

bwia

imidazol97 said:

bwia said:

Downloaded Windows 10 to my 2-year old Toshiba Laptop. It's an upgrade from Windows 8.1.

I'm debating trying to upgrade my 9-year old HP Pavilion laptop(AMD Turion ML37 (2 GHz)) to 10 if it will try.
Currently Win XP Pro version used for Media Center. I have a copy of Win 7 that I can try installing on it first.

As for my other two laptops, I think I'll clone each one to a spare hard drive. Then if I don't like Win 10, I can just clone my original drive back onto each.

No worries; you'll like (love) Win 10 but that 9-year old HP has to go. RIP

suydam

Can't comment since I'm a member of the Church of Apple.

stever

Funny, my wife has been reading up on the CX-3 (and revisions to the CX-5) and one theme is that the interior has gone minimalist.

Steve Jobs would like 'em, in other words.

Mr_Shiftright

Perhaps minimalist and a big snug but definitely not cheap-looking. Very nice interior from the photos I've seen.

Mr_Shiftright

XP to Windows 10? That would take a lot of work, basically a clean sweep then adding Windows 7 then crossing your fingers. I read it over and decided not to bother on my old XP and not to upgrade on my current Windows 7 until the service packs are out. (or are they?)

bwia said:

imidazol97 said:

bwia said:

Downloaded Windows 10 to my 2-year old Toshiba Laptop. It's an upgrade from Windows 8.1.

I'm debating trying to upgrade my 9-year old HP Pavilion laptop(AMD Turion ML37 (2 GHz)) to 10 if it will try.
Currently Win XP Pro version used for Media Center. I have a copy of Win 7 that I can try installing on it first.

As for my other two laptops, I think I'll clone each one to a spare hard drive. Then if I don't like Win 10, I can just clone my original drive back onto each.

No worries; you'll like (love) Win 10 but that 9-year old HP has to go. RIP

abacomike

 Just a test

abacomike

Carpet layers just left.  The place is magnificent!  It is so much brighter in the apartment and smells clean.  I picked the right color, for sure.  They did a terrific job.

Monday, I have a window treatment guy coming so I can order vertical blinds in my bedroom, the master bedroom and the living room and the kitchen.  Then a good paint job in my bedroom and I am finished.

I can then sit back and make decisions at a reduced speed.

I was supposed to go up to my brother's place next week, but he decided to fly to Costa Rica instead.  I guess it wasn't meant to be.

abacomike

The Windows 10 is still performing great.  I still can't believe how much faster my computer runs.

I don't use my PC that often - I mostly use my iPhone 6 for surfing, etc.

But I would recommend Windows 10.  They already had s major update last night after I installed the operating system.  At least they are keeping up with needed improvements.

stever

Mr_Shiftright said:

Perhaps minimalist and a big snug but definitely not cheap-looking. Very nice interior from the photos I've seen.

Yeah, the minimalist comments were compliments, as in how expensive and refined Mac products can look.

The snugness is a bit of a concern. Just priced out a Grand Touring with a few options and the MSRP is topping out at $27,065, so right in the middle of the ball park of the cars we are shopping. Looks like the passenger seat height isn't adjustable and that's a feature my wife likes. Be nice to get the touring and swap out the 18" alloys for the 16s.

laurasdada

Re: the CX-3; I've read favorable reviews which also noted that if you don't need AWD (or elevated driving position), the 3 is roomier, more cargo space and less expensive!

stever

Good, AWD isn't a priority. If I ever get to Taos in the winter to ride my mothballed snowboard, I'll be going up their mountain with friends in their Subaru.

Lots of people here think they need AWD to go play in the desert so they'll probably be plenty of those around too.

houdini1

abacomike said:

Carpet layers just left.  The place is magnificent!  It is so much brighter in the apartment and smells clean.  I picked the right color, for sure.  They did a terrific job.

Monday, I have a window treatment guy coming so I can order vertical blinds in my bedroom, the master bedroom and the living room and the kitchen.  Then a good paint job in my bedroom and I am finished.

I can then sit back and make decisions at a reduced speed.

I was supposed to go up to my brother's place next week, but he decided to fly to Costa Rica instead.  I guess it wasn't meant to be.

About 35 years ago (seems like yesterday) we had new carpet installed in the entire house. I had to trim about an inch off of every door in the house so they would close, etc. Set up on back deck with a couple of saw horses and started sawing. Probably had about 8 doors to do. Everything was working perfectly. Got down to last door, trimmed an inch off. It was an upstairs hall bathroom. Took the door up and realized that I had sawed the wrong end off %$#*&^. Did the first 7 perfectly and dropped the ball on the goal line. Thankfully the inch I trimmed off was in one piece so out came the Elmers wood glue. Sawed the other end off, glued the trimmed piece back on the top. Looked fine. Told wife about a week later what I had done and she couldn't tell it had been glued, so a close call and narrow escape !

Michaell

Mike - so glad the carpet install went well and that you're pleased with the results.

If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion - if it's not too late - on the window coverings. We did many of the windows in our house using a company called Stoneside. A little pricey - about $2500 for 5 windows - but the results look great. Custom fit and very versatile.

abacomike

Michaell said:

Mike - so glad the carpet install went well and that you're pleased with the results. If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion - if it's not too late - on the window coverings. We did many of the windows in our house using a company called Stoneside. A little pricey - about $2500 for 5 windows - but the results look great. Custom fit and very versatile.

Thanks for the referral.  I searched for a location here in South Florida.  The closest outlet is some 45 miles south of me.  The place I called is less than a mile away and they have done several apartments in my building - highly recommended.  I do not want to spend more than $1000 for 6 windows and the sliding glass doors that lead out to my terrace.  That would total $4500 I invested in this place and I really don't want to spend any more.

A realtor who lives in my building said that between the new carpeting and some vertical blinds, I've added $20,000 to the value of this condo.  That means I have gone from $80,000 to $100,000 with a small investment.  

If i decide to stay here, I will probably put in a new kitchen and a new bathroom in the master suite.

isellhondas

snakeweasel said:

abacomike said:

Just finished downloading Windows 10 from the Microsoft site. It seems to work quite well on this 6 year old HP computer. I have not run into any problems as yet, but knowing Microsoft and previous problems with their upgrades, I expect to have some difficulties. Will let you know if there are any complications.

Keep us updated, I have gotten some popups reminding me about Windows 10 and I am sort of thinking about it.

I have a friend who is a high level manager at Microsoft and one of the main guys involved with Windows 10.

According to him, and he has used Windows 10 for over a year that it is, by far, the most bug proof version EVER. He said it is flawless!

abacomike

isellhondas said:

Just finished downloading Windows 10 from the Microsoft site. It seems to work quite well on this 6 year old HP computer. I have not run into any problems as yet, but knowing Microsoft and previous problems with their upgrades, I expect to have some difficulties. Will let you know if there are any complications.

Keep us updated, I have gotten some popups reminding me about Windows 10 and I am sort of thinking about it.

I have a friend who is a high level manager at Microsoft and one of the main guys involved with Windows 10. According to him, and he has used Windows 10 for over a year that it is, by far, the most bug proof version EVER. He said it is flawless!

I've heard the term "flawless" used many times - but when it comes to computer software, nothing is flawless IMHO.  I agree it is a great operating system, but in computer software, there are always bugs.

But I will agree, it has improved the speed with which my computer starts up and goes from one app or site to another in lightning speed.

abacomike

Tomorrow, I am dropping my car off at the dealer so they can take care of my damaged wheels.  They are giving me an S Class Sedan to drive for the weekend.  I have a sneaky suspicion that there is some "slight of hand" going on here.  I know I can get a 2015 S Class (MSRP $107,000) for around $90,000 with my fleet discounts.  But there is no way I would buy one.  Just too big for my needs and it would take up too much space in my parking spot here at the condo.  Besides, I love the E Class.

Mr_Shiftright

E class has a better reputation, too.

fezo

driver - I have no doubt that the Golf Sportwagon is a lot of fun but Mazda does fun pretty well across the board. If I never get as far as that Tesla III there's good chance I'd never buy another car that wasn't a Mazda. Easy for me to say. If I get 10 years out of the 5, and I'd be shocked if I didn't, I'd be 74. Not that I'd stop driving at that point.

In three years the younger kids will have licenses. I'm thinking they could split a 3.

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

XP to Windows 10? That would take a lot of work, basically a clean sweep then adding Windows 7 then crossing your fingers. I read it over and decided not to bother on my old XP and not to upgrade on my current Windows 7 until the service packs are out. (or are they?)

bwia said:

imidazol97 said:

bwia said:

Downloaded Windows 10 to my 2-year old Toshiba Laptop. It's an upgrade from Windows 8.1.

I'm debating trying to upgrade my 9-year old HP Pavilion laptop(AMD Turion ML37 (2 GHz)) to 10 if it will try.
Currently Win XP Pro version used for Media Center. I have a copy of Win 7 that I can try installing on it first.

As for my other two laptops, I think I'll clone each one to a spare hard drive. Then if I don't like Win 10, I can just clone my original drive back onto each.

No worries; you'll like (love) Win 10 but that 9-year old HP has to go. RIP

My IT guy came over and he converted my wife's desktop to Windows 10. He checked mine and said it had XP and my Toshiba laptop is 9 years old too. He said not to convert it, just buy a new one. This Toshiba cost about $1000 9 years ago, he said I could buy one that would be better for $350 to $400. I think I have had my use from the old Tosh....and I am going to start looking for a new replacement, with Windows 10 installed.

driver100

fezo said:

driver - I have no doubt that the Golf Sportwagon is a lot of fun but Mazda does fun pretty well across the board. If I never get as far as that Tesla III there's good chance I'd never buy another car that wasn't a Mazda. Easy for me to say. If I get 10 years out of the 5, and I'd be shocked if I didn't, I'd be 74. Not that I'd stop driving at that point.

In three years the younger kids will have licenses. I'm thinking they could split a 3.

No arguement there fezo...Mazda is getting great reviews and owners I talk to love them...and they always mention they are fun to drive. The Golf wagon was more an example of a VW product that could be considered in the same category. The Golf also gets good reviews and one review said the seating position was exceptional....lots of good outward vision.....and that is something important to me. Also, rate the interior as top notch...but, I think I would trust that a Mazda would be more reliable.

nyccarguy

Mike - glad you are happy with the carpet job. Our kitchen is 75% done. New floors, radiant heat, & cabinets have been installed. They are coming Saturday to measure for the Granite, then the contractor has to put up the back splash & a few more lights and we'll be done.

oldfarmer50

More trouble for Chrysler?

Caught the tail end a news story that said if you slam the door on your Charger too hard the airbag could deploy. I sometimes wonder if we have added technology beyond our ability to control it.

Michaell

Any advice on a restoration project?

http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/36134/toyota/t100/restoring-my-t100#latest

fezo

The thing Mazda has over VW is reliability. I know some folks have had great experiences with VWs but they still seem a step behnd. Look at Sandman's Golf. All new and one thing after another. Of course we can say the same about GG's CTS. You could make a case for my 6 but that was at 150K and given what it was I suspect the first owner ran it on junk gas and didn't pay attention to maintenance.

robr2

Just back from a few days in Lake George, NY. With my son going off to college and planning to work in research labs in the summers, it may have been our last family vacation.

Nothing special of vehicular interest to note other than we went to a drive in movie and saw MI Rogue Nation. Lots of BMW's in the movie. The product placement was done well except when the center mounted parking brake was pulled in the M3.

oldfarmer50

robr2 said:

Just back from a few days in Lake George, NY. With my son going off to college and planning to work in research labs in the summers, it may have been our last family vacation.

Nothing special of vehicular interest to note other than we went to a drive in movie and saw MI Rogue Nation. Lots of BMW's in the movie. The product placement was done well except when the center mounted parking brake was pulled in the M3.

Hope you paid a visit to Frankenstine's House of Wax. Local landmark.

jpp75

houdini1 said:

In todays autos most ACs will freeze you to death. I wonder if something was wrong with the HRVs AC.

The AC in our S60 will freeze you to death. The AC in the Q50 is very weak, it can't keep the cabin cool on a warm day, and a "hot" day (>95) just prepare to sweat.

jpp75

graphicguy said:

Q...that's what frustrates me. I know you've loved yours and have had few, if any, problems. Caddy seems to be going out of their way to irritate and frustrate me, at not just one dealership, but two dealerships.

Sometimes I don't have a choice but to drive the CTS. Wife is going back to school and I'm going to have to use it more. I guess I should just be thankful it hasn't left me stranded. Yes, the power steering goes out every week or two, Yes, it stalls repeatedly every week or two (but starts up after a lot of cranking). Yes, now CUE has gone bonkers. But no! I have yet to be totally stranded. Thank the Deity for small favors I suppose.

I just wonder if it's a different assembly process and/or parts differences (aside from the obvious drivetrain differences) that could account for my "lemon" Cadillac?

I even asked the service writer if it's possible that CUE has some sort of "cache" that could be causing the operating system to crash? He looked at me like I was some sort of 3 eyed alien and had no idea what I was saying. I asked if they would "reflash" the CUE OS to see if that helped.

Guess what answer I got? Yep..."we can't do any work if we don't have a code".

The dealer experience is the deal breaker for me. I don't "love" the Q50 but the dealer has bent over backwards to fix any and all issues. They even provided a loaner when I messed something up. I don't expect any car to be flawless but if Cadillac wants to be a serious contender they have a lot of work ahead of them on the customer experience. They aren't giving anyone a reason to buy a Cadillac.

robr2

oldfarmer50 said:

robr2 said:

Just back from a few days in Lake George, NY. With my son going off to college and planning to work in research labs in the summers, it may have been our last family vacation.

Nothing special of vehicular interest to note other than we went to a drive in movie and saw MI Rogue Nation. Lots of BMW's in the movie. The product placement was done well except when the center mounted parking brake was pulled in the M3.

Hope you paid a visit to Frankenstine's House of Wax. Local landmark.

Nah - just walked past it. Not our thing.

We did a lot of eating and pool dipping. We went to the Glen Drive In - my kids had never been to one. We also did the Adirondack Extreme adventure course - that's our thing. I was exhausted after 3 hours of climbing trees, walking across rope bridges, swinging on ropes into cargo nets, and zip lines.

nelsonf

Looks like Lexus is going to try the Saturn method. No negotiations for new and used cars, plus parts and service.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/07/lexus-dealerships-ban-haggling-over-price.html?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity

[Deleted User]

nelsonf said:

Looks like Lexus is going to try the Saturn method. No negotiations for new and used cars, plus parts and service.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/07/lexus-dealerships-ban-haggling-over-price.html?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity

Wow, surprising development for Lexus, or at least surprising to me. I'm curious what kind of controls Lexus will put in place so the study isn't tainted by the other non-participating dealers. It'd be easy for a customer to go to the non-haggle place first, then use a quote from there as a starting point at another Lexus dealer to drive the cost lower. If this tactic becomes common it would be easy and expected for Lexus to call the experiment a failure.

graphicguy

jpp5862 said:

graphicguy said:

Q...that's what frustrates me. I know you've loved yours and have had few, if any, problems. Caddy seems to be going out of their way to irritate and frustrate me, at not just one dealership, but two dealerships.

Sometimes I don't have a choice but to drive the CTS. Wife is going back to school and I'm going to have to use it more. I guess I should just be thankful it hasn't left me stranded. Yes, the power steering goes out every week or two, Yes, it stalls repeatedly every week or two (but starts up after a lot of cranking). Yes, now CUE has gone bonkers. But no! I have yet to be totally stranded. Thank the Deity for small favors I suppose.

I just wonder if it's a different assembly process and/or parts differences (aside from the obvious drivetrain differences) that could account for my "lemon" Cadillac?

I even asked the service writer if it's possible that CUE has some sort of "cache" that could be causing the operating system to crash? He looked at me like I was some sort of 3 eyed alien and had no idea what I was saying. I asked if they would "reflash" the CUE OS to see if that helped.

Guess what answer I got? Yep..."we can't do any work if we don't have a code".

The dealer experience is the deal breaker for me. I don't "love" the Q50 but the dealer has bent over backwards to fix any and all issues. They even provided a loaner when I messed something up. I don't expect any car to be flawless but if Cadillac wants to be a serious contender they have a lot of work ahead of them on the customer experience. They aren't giving anyone a reason to buy a Cadillac.

jpp...couldn't have said it better. I think that's really what is doing Cadillac in. Yes, they have products that compete with BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. But, if you have people dogging your brand because of its unreliability, the lack of decent service, let alone premium service, you're going to be viewed as a poor value, no matter if your product is good or not.

Cadillac is having those issues, now. They pulled away from the geriatric set, building vehicle that are supposed to appeal to those who have, or had, one or more of the premium German or Japanese brands. They haven't delivered on the customer service end.

Might be able to get away with that if you're staring at competing with Lincoln. No way you can get away with that competing against Mercedes or BMW.

graphicguy

tyguy said:

nelsonf said:

Looks like Lexus is going to try the Saturn method. No negotiations for new and used cars, plus parts and service.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/08/07/lexus-dealerships-ban-haggling-over-price.html?__source=xfinity|mod&par=xfinity

Wow, surprising development for Lexus, or at least surprising to me. I'm curious what kind of controls Lexus will put in place so the study isn't tainted by the other non-participating dealers. It'd be easy for a customer to go to the non-haggle place first, then use a quote from there as a starting point at another Lexus dealer to drive the cost lower. If this tactic becomes common it would be easy and expected for Lexus to call the experiment a failure.

ty...I had just read that yesterday. I mentioned that a colleague just bought an IS350 F Sport. Beautiful car, impeccably built, and is a nice entre in the Luxury Performance arena. That it cost him a bit more than $46K, all loaded up, when you compare that to a loaded 3 series at about $10K more, I can see where Lexus might believe they can go to no haggle pricing.

That said, the MSRP on my colleagues Lexus was a hair shy of $50K, so he got a nice discount. No discount? I wonder if someone might not even walk into their showroom knowing they aren't going to get a "deal"?

isellhondas

Oh yeah, the no hagggle method really worked for Saturn didn't it?

Highly doubtful this will stay in place very long.

I do know the Lexus stores around here do not put up with mooch buyers very much. They may come off the price a bit but not much. They know the two or three other Lexus stores won't discount much so a determined Price Shopper isn't going to get much traction.

robr2

A few things on the Lexus pricing:

it is a pilot test of about 12 dealerships

it is being tested because Lexus dealers have found that customers hate negotiating

prices are set by the dealer and they don't have to be MSRP

the goal is to differentiate Lexus from BMW, Audi, MB in terms of ease of purchase and removing the stress from the car buying public

dino001

Oh yeah, the no hagggle method really worked for Saturn didn't it?

Actually, it did work when the product was decent enough (first generation models SL and SC). From what I read, it was a favorite place for shopping for women, young people, probably mostly because of the model profile, but also because their environment tended to be low-pressure, laid back. It all changed around introduction of larger models (LS), the haggling crept back, as the product became less and less appealing to the people.

Lexus has a potential to pull it off, if their dealer network has market carved out. If there are three shops in a given metro area, but all three are owned by the same guy/corporation, then they'll compete only against other brands, not each other. Another aspect of no-haggle is that it doesn't have to mean MSRP. It only means that if there is a discount today for a particular model, or even a unit, ($1000 off, 3% off, whatever the scheme may be), all customers will get it. When you shop at Best Buy, or Walmart, not everything is "MSRP", but everything is priced the same for everybody. There is a difference.

There are also the trade-in prices. This may be one workaround area for motivated buyers and salesmen/managers. I read somewhere that Saturn dealers during their no-haggle times were not paying top dollar. My interpretation was that they figured they already dealt with non-confrontation individuals, so why not get even more out of them.

BTW, I don't know if the article is correct saying no other brand set no-haggle policy. I though Scion had it, or at least attempted it at first.

isellhondas

I used to love the customers who claimed they hated negotiating.

So, they would come in under the Costco Program. I would sit down with them show them the deeply discounted "no haggle" Costco price.

Rarely would they say..." That sounds great, write it up" VERY rarely.

I would usually hear things like..." Can't you do better?" or " That sounds high"

The worst thing would be to give them a number only to have them smile, write it down and say "I'll think about it!" That meant they planned to shop my number all over town.

So, I would let them out by saying..." The number I gave you is the MOST I can charge you according to our agreement with Costco". If you hear anything better, at least give me a change to save you some money...I don't want to lose you over a few dollars"

I had to be VERY careful how I let them out if they didn't buy on the spot.

Now, this could work for Lexus since they don't have stores everywhere. They could target an area where it would be too far to drive hundreds of miles to try and do better.

graphicguy

Interesting discussion.....I buy a lot of high end electronics for my home theater. And, there was a point in time that all of it sold for one price, regardless of the venue you purchased from. Many times, there wasn't even a price tag on the gear. You had to listen to the sales pitch before finding the price. I sort of resented this given I had quite a bit of knowledge about the gear myself. I didn't need much of a sales pitch.

Anyway, along came the internet. Along with my knowledge, and competition not only with two stores in my burg, but any store in the country, and prices fell. End result? You'd be hard pressed to find any higher end, boutique type A/V Stores in anywhere save for the biggest cities in the country. Now, there are internet only brands of high end audio gear and they're doing quite well.

As a result, no reason for me to pay Best Buy/Magnolia prices. I can get better gear for less. Plus, a phone call will net me more quality information about the products that the Magnolia sales person could ever hope to have.

For cars, unless ALL the dealerships for Lexus agree to no haggle pricing (not a slam dunk given Lexus already admits there will be dealerships that will lose sales as a result, at least in the short term), the buyer will just happen over to the dealer in the next state who offers LOWER no haggle pricing than the dealer in his/her 'burg.

Saturn? They just didn't have a very good product. They were supposed to compete with Toyota, Honda, Nissan. Their build quality was woeful (look at the panel gaps of an early Saturn) and their reliability wasn't nearly as good as the Japanese brands. They still had the GM gremlins that the company can't seem to free themselves from.

We'll see if Lexus can pull it off. Regardless of how much you pay for a car, or how much money you have, everyone wants a "DEAL". No one wants to pay list price.