Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

Michaell

I like Dallas Car Sharks as well, for the same reason.

What bugs me is that they assume they will get their asking price once the work is complete.

I enjoy seeing the work done; the rest I could do without (but, without the drama, staged or not, these shows wouldn't be on the air).

stickguy

I think graveyard is probably the most realistic. With mark actually being a nut. But that and fantom works are the 2 that are just showing a shop working on customer cars, not buying and flipping.

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

Yuck. The ruined it.

Too bad the Bad Taste Police arrived too late to save the victim.

Mr_Shiftright

houdini1 said:

graphicguy said:

stever said:

One of our ex-editors got one years ago - more in the $150,000 range iirc though.

I remember that. I followed his story with the GT. He had moved from his CA home and cashed in before the tech bubble. Can't recall his name off the top of my head. Enjoyed reading his blogs about the GT, though.

I saw a few for sale some time ago. Used, but they were almost affordable. Looks like they've appreciated quite a bit over the last few years.

EDIT...looks like I'm late to the party...it was Karl and yes there was real estate involved. Great story, though!

I have it from a very reliable (but anonymous) source that all the moderators here are really independently wealthy playboys who actually pay Edmunds to let them exercise their gigantic egos and lord it over all us regular poor folks. The secret little game they play is to act as poor as the rest of us in order to gain sympathy, etc.

I'll have my personal assistant respond to that attack....I'm off to a board meeting, then a session with my tennis coach, and then I have to prepare the Edmunds yacht for the upcoming regatta.

stever

@iluvmysephia1, sorry if we rained on your parade. Could be worse - if you scroll back a few pages in that discussion you'll find the number pegged for our Grand Caravan (it's too painful for me to go look up the link. )

PF_Flyer

I like BOLD. While I was waiting on a little preventative maintenance this morning, I had my camera along and walked around a nearby farm taking pics, but at the dealer, this truck was talking to me...



Fortunately for me, it was saying, "Hey genius, you don't got the $58K, so don't even think about it!"

graphicguy

Michaell said:

I like Dallas Car Sharks as well, for the same reason.

What bugs me is that they assume they will get their asking price once the work is complete.

I enjoy seeing the work done; the rest I could do without (but, without the drama, staged or not, these shows wouldn't be on the air).

Michaell...that's the criticism I have too. They post what they HOPE to sell the cars for, not the actual selling price. Shows how an old car can really break you if you gauged the condition wrong at auction.

What I do like is you get a behind the scenes look at how these neighborhood used car lots operate. Clearly, the less they have to do to a car, the better. But, as I've heard more than once, you make money on the buying end. Like anything else, they'll sell for whatever anyone else is willing to pay.

I also wonder if they take into account the fixed costs in the sale price. I cost labor, opening the doors, turning the lights on, etc. So, it's not just the restoration cost involved.

ON Misfit Garage, they also split the profits between the 3 partners on each car.

There was one episode where the vehicle (I believe a Chevy Blazer) wasn't tied down to the flatbed and actually fell off. That had to be a total write off.

One Gas Monkey episode they restored a beautiful early Mustang. Some guy with no insurance hit it when they were test driving the car with the work they had done. As Rawlings said, insurance wouldn't cover the true value of the car, and it was hit so badly, the amount to repair it would never get the money back they put into it.

iluvmysephia1

stever - ah, it's better to hit me with the truth about my car's true value so I know. Saves me a trip to DEN.

stever

It's frustrating 'cause you know the dealer is going to put your price on the car on the lot. And maybe even get it.

driver100

I thought these comments in Driving by David Booth were interesting, regarding the new Tesla 3:

*While Musk points out that the Model S was the highest rated car in the history of Consumer Reports testing. What he fails to mention is that, despite the Model S garnering an almost perfect score from CR’s notoriously difficult-to-please testers, the organization nonetheless recommends you don’t buy one, citing numerous reliability issues.

*Most issues have to do with to do with hard parts such as motors, charging equipment and door handles (the latter of which, for some reason, seem to be a particular Tesla frailty) — are not as easily dismissed. Edmunds.com, another respected U.S. testing organization, replaced its Model S’s electric motor three times and its main battery once (not to mention manifold other smaller issues such as repeated touchscreen power outages and a broken sunroof) in just 18 months of driving. Indeed, the litany of reliability issues Edmunds suffered would make owners of old Jaguars blanch.

*What makes these reports even more incredible is that Consumer Reports says the Tesla has the most loyal following in the luxury sedan segment, 97 per cent saying they plan to buy another.

Booth says the well to do like our moderators probably have 2 or 3 other cars so they can live with their Tesla being at the service department a lot of the time, but will people buying a $40k model feel the same?

And, then he closes by saying:
*plug-ins powered by nothing other than electric motor and battery — remain very much a novelty, accounting for just 0.4 per cent of the 17.1 million light vehicles sold in the U.S. last year. More telling is that the total market share of all electric cars — EVs, plug-in hybrids and conventional hybrids — has declined; the 498,426 sold in the States last year represents a 2.9 per cent market share, down from 3.5 per cent in 2014.

henryn

driver100 said:

*plug-ins powered by nothing other than electric motor and battery — remain very much a novelty, accounting for just 0.4 per cent of the 17.1 million light vehicles sold in the U.S. last year. More telling is that the total market share of all electric cars — EVs, plug-in hybrids and conventional hybrids — has declined; the 498,426 sold in the States last year represents a 2.9 per cent market share, down from 3.5 per cent in 2014.

I would expect that to be directly related to the price of gas being so low for so long now.

thebean

oldfarmer50 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

IMO, the only reality show that is truly a reality show (with no scripted crises) is "The Incredible Dr Pol", which is about a Michigan vet.  One of my favorite shows.

My wife loves that show. I find it sweet that you think it's unscripted.

Yeah, I'm kinda naive that way.  

Sorry if I came off as snarky in that post. I'm a sucker for those puppies and kittens he treats. I use to love 'Storage Wars' until it was revealed that they were salting the units with valuable items to make it interesting.

No, not at all.  I've been following the forum long enough to know snarky and this was not.  Besides, I figured if anyone knows about farm animals, it would be you.

andres3

I suppose Tesla gets some forgiveness because they reinvented the automobile in essence with their Model S. I can't give the Big 3 the same forgiveness as there was nothing that new, fancy, or different about the lemons they were making regularly in the 90's.

Mr_Shiftright

That market share may bob up and down according to fuel prices, but I doubt it will ever break 6% until the magic formula appears---a 300 mile range 'normal-looking" vehicle you can buy for the price of a Versa or Cruze. ..with or without tax credits.

Michaell

Mr_Shiftright said:

That market share may bob up and down according to fuel prices, but I doubt it will ever break 6% until the magic formula appears---a 300 mile range 'normal-looking" vehicle you can buy for the price of a Versa or Cruze. ..with or without tax credits.

And the ability to recharge that battery for another 300 miles of range in less than 5 minutes.

driver100

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

That market share may bob up and down according to fuel prices, but I doubt it will ever break 6% until the magic formula appears---a 300 mile range 'normal-looking" vehicle you can buy for the price of a Versa or Cruze. ..with or without tax credits.

And the ability to recharge that battery for another 300 miles of range in less than 5 minutes.

That's a big one.....people have "range anxiety", and that is a big deal killer. Even locally, what if you just happen to get stuck in one of those 3 hour traffic tie-ups, just when you have 10 miles left with your last charge?

PF_Flyer

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

That market share may bob up and down according to fuel prices, but I doubt it will ever break 6% until the magic formula appears---a 300 mile range 'normal-looking" vehicle you can buy for the price of a Versa or Cruze. ..with or without tax credits.

And the ability to recharge that battery for another 300 miles of range in less than 5 minutes.

My gut says that that's a high hurdle

stickguy

I get antsy if my gas gauge drops to 1/4 tank. An EV might put me in the funny farm.

graphicguy

Guess I'll be the devil's advocate here. I know people who used to have "phone anxiety" because they were afraid they'd run out of power and wouldn't be able to text. Result? Nothing! They still sell a ton of iPhones and Andriod phones every year.

Electric cars sold....(all manufacturers)
2010-2011 17,425
2012-52,607
2013-97,507
2014-122,713 (U.S.) 320,713 (Worldwide)
2015-116,099 (U.S.) 550,297 (Worldwide)

So, the oil and gas industry can spin it any way they'd like. The numbers say the electric car market is growing rapidly with no foreseeable slow down.

PF_Flyer

Just sayin'... an iphone doesn't leave you waving people past you as you try to squeeze the last drop of juice out of your Leaf because you miscalculated on getting back to the charger at your house. I went around this guy the other day.

oldfarmer50

henryn said:

driver100 said:

*plug-ins powered by nothing other than electric motor and battery — remain very much a novelty, accounting for just 0.4 per cent of the 17.1 million light vehicles sold in the U.S. last year. More telling is that the total market share of all electric cars — EVs, plug-in hybrids and conventional hybrids — has declined; the 498,426 sold in the States last year represents a 2.9 per cent market share, down from 3.5 per cent in 2014.

I would expect that to be directly related to the price of gas being so low for so long now.

Interesting, the major spikes are tied to some world event except when gas went to $4.45. Something stinks.

[Deleted User]

People run out of gas and diesel, too. Same will happen with hydrogen. The key is figuring out to quickly get people back on the road again. I'm an advocate for standardized battery packs that insert where the rocker panels are. Then a "rescue" truck could easily swap in a charged battery.

Michaell

tyguy said:

People run out of gas and diesel, too. Same will happen with hydrogen. The key is figuring out to quickly get people back on the road again. I'm an advocate for standardized battery packs that insert where the rocker panels are. Then a "rescue" truck could easily swap in a charged battery.

I expect that to be the way large-scale adoption will occur. I know I'd be interested .. and, the price point has to be competitive as well.

At one point, Tesla was advocating a plan where the entire battery pack would be swapped out in a couple of minutes. Wonder what happened to that idea?

andres3

I'm sure there are a lot of feasibility concerns with the swapping the battery pack idea. What if you get a high-performer that gives you 300 miles, whereas the low-performer that went through a desert at 120 degrees F is now only giving 220 miles. They'd have to be awfully consistent and equal. Imagine if you got 20% less miles out of a gas tank for no reason. I do that all the time when my foot is heavy, but that's a good reason.

oldfarmer50

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

That market share may bob up and down according to fuel prices, but I doubt it will ever break 6% until the magic formula appears---a 300 mile range 'normal-looking" vehicle you can buy for the price of a Versa or Cruze. ..with or without tax credits.

And the ability to recharge that battery for another 300 miles of range in less than 5 minutes.

That's a big one.....people have "range anxiety", and that is a big deal killer. Even locally, what if you just happen to get stuck in one of those 3 hour traffic tie-ups, just when you have 10 miles left with your last charge?

It's not just that. What if you drive your Jeep up into the mountains and you run out of fuel. You could backpack in a can of gas but your electric Jeep is out of luck.

Mr_Shiftright

graphicguy said:

Guess I'll be the devil's advocate here. I know people who used to have "phone anxiety" because they were afraid they'd run out of power and wouldn't be able to text. Result? Nothing! They still sell a ton of iPhones and Andriod phones every year.

Electric cars sold....(all manufacturers)
2010-2011 17,425
2012-52,607
2013-97,507
2014-122,713 (U.S.) 320,713 (Worldwide)
2015-116,099 (U.S.) 550,297 (Worldwide)

So, the oil and gas industry can spin it any way they'd like. The numbers say the electric car market is growing rapidly with no foreseeable slow down.

Yeah but what if your iPhone could only be charged at a) your house or b) an iPhone charging station?

Can't we just address the elephant in the room. If you plan to travel any distance in an EV, you are not planning your trip from hotel to hotel, or from your house to their house, or from home to Disneyland....you are going to be planning your trip from charging station to charging station, which means, along major routes only or in large metro areas.

stever

>What if you drive your Jeep up into the mountains and you run out of fuel.

Oh man, an electric motor at each wheel? Think of the torque....

oldfarmer50

stever said:

>What if you drive your Jeep up into the mountains and you run out of fuel.

Oh man, an electric motor at each wheel? Think of the torque....

Yeah, that would be cool.

Maybe carry a 10 mile long extension cord.

[Deleted User]

A couple of electric challenges have been brought up. When alternative fuels are mentioned, I've noticed people tend to argue assuming that every vehicle will have to be electric. I don't think that needs to be the case. Semi trucks will likely be diesel for a long time to come, and hopefully those will switch to biodiesel. Watercraft are unlikely to go electric.

No reason offroad purpose vehicles need to go electric. How many vehicles would that represent? Five percent that actually offoad? Although, I have to say, electric motors would be far better for off-roading, but I understand that range is an issue with the current battery tech. Weight would be problematic, too. But I sure would love the torque, simplicity, and instant power delivery that comes with an electric motor.

Regarding being limited to charging stations, I agree, but that's assuming today's install base of chargers. Imagine if 90% of gas stations were converted to electric charging. Then gas-based vehicles would be limited in range the way electric vehicles are today. Progress will take time.

It's all guesswork at this point, but I do believe I'll live to see a time when gas plays a minority role and those that still use it will pay dearly for the limited supply available since fuels require certain economies of scale to be as cheap as they are now.

driver100

PF_Flyer
Just sayin'... an iphone doesn't leave you waving people past you as you try to squeeze the last drop of juice out of your Leaf because you miscalculated on getting back to the charger at your house

Deleted

I pressed "quote" instead of "lol".

But, while here, I like that example of the off roading Jeep that runs out of juice. Maybe they will have gas powered Jeeps for real off-roading, and electric Jeeps for people who drive a Jeep so people will think they go off-roading.

PF_Flyer

tyguy said:

People run out of gas and diesel, too. Same will happen with hydrogen. The key is figuring out to quickly get people back on the road again. I'm an advocate for standardized battery packs that insert where the rocker panels are. Then a "rescue" truck could easily swap in a charged battery.

From a practical standpoint, the swapable packs make sense. And it has to be easy and quick. Ideally I would not want to put cars up on a rack to swap it out. Just pull the used up pack out and slide the new one in. Now I SEE the problem with looks. Who wants a "battery door" on the outside of their car. And getting a standardized pack across brands would be a lot of fun too I bet.

oldfarmer50

tyguy said:

A couple of electric challenges have been brought up. When alternative fuels are mentioned, I've noticed people tend to argue assuming that every vehicle will have to be electric. I don't think that needs to be the case. Semi trucks will likely be diesel for a long time to come, and hopefully those will switch to biodiesel. Watercraft are unlikely to go electric.

No reason offroad purpose vehicles need to go electric. How many vehicles would that represent? Five percent that actually offoad? Although, I have to say, electric motors would be far better for off-roading, but I understand that range is an issue with the current battery tech. Weight would be problematic, too. But I sure would love the torque, simplicity, and instant power delivery that comes with an electric motor.

Regarding being limited to charging stations, I agree, but that's assuming today's install base of chargers. Imagine if 90% of gas stations were converted to electric charging. Then gas-based vehicles would be limited in range the way electric vehicles are today. Progress will take time.

It's all guesswork at this point, but I do believe I'll live to see a time when gas plays a minority role and those that still use it will pay dearly for the limited supply available since fuels require certain economies of scale to be as cheap as they are now.

Hippie! :@

I hope I don't live to see the day when drag racers long to hear the whine of their tourqey electric motors. For all that acceleration I'd miss the roar of a hydrocarbon motor.

driver100

PF_Flyer said:

tyguy said:

People run out of gas and diesel, too. Same will happen with hydrogen. The key is figuring out to quickly get people back on the road again. I'm an advocate for standardized battery packs that insert where the rocker panels are. Then a "rescue" truck could easily swap in a charged battery.

From a practical standpoint, the swapable packs make sense. And it has to be easy and quick. Ideally I would not want to put cars up on a rack to swap it out. Just pull the used up pack out and slide the new one in. Now I SEE the problem with looks. Who wants a "battery door" on the outside of their car. And getting a standardized pack across brands would be a lot of fun too I bet.

I think the battery has to be loaded from the front or the back. What if you are on the side of a major highway...where will the battery delivery truck stop?

[Deleted User]

oldfarmer50 said:

Hippie! :@

I hope I don't live to see the day when drag racers long to hear the whine of their tourqey electric motors. For all that acceleration I'd miss the roar of a hydrocarbon motor.

LOL. I love it, Farmer. Around Fort Collins that Hippie exclamation is a compliment, even more so in Boulder

In reality I lean more towards yuppie and environmentalist :-)

I grew up off-roading with my family along hardcore boulder strewn trails. I actually wonder if electric range would really be a problem for that type of off-roading provided you could charge at the trail head. Most of our fuel was consumed idling the motor while we examined our approach, and then while waiting for others to make it through the same obstacle. Electricity consumption would be minimal in that situation, aside from the blaring radio and maybe the lights if we get caught on the trail at night when something goes wrong. If we went 50 miles in a day, that was practically a marathon.

For racing I don't see liquid fuels going away anytime soon. I don't think racing will stop the majority of mundane daily drivers switching away from gas, though. I could be wrong. It's just a judgment call.

[Deleted User]

PF_Flyer said:

From a practical standpoint, the swapable packs make sense. And it has to be easy and quick. Ideally I would not want to put cars up on a rack to swap it out. Just pull the used up pack out and slide the new one in. Now I SEE the problem with looks. Who wants a "battery door" on the outside of their car. And getting a standardized pack across brands would be a lot of fun too I bet.

I was envisioning the rocker panels swinging up to allow battery access, as well as providing a locking function with the batteries installed so theft would be less likely.

The other part of my idea is that we wouldn't own the packs in most cases. We would buy cars with empty battery slots, and then sign up with a lease company for the batteries. The leasing companies own the batteries and we simply use them for a monthly fee, plus a swap charge if we use that option. That way battery degradation would be less of an issue. The cost would be built into the lease and the leasing company would guarantee a minimum percentage charge capacity. Cars would actually be pretty cheap to buy without the batteries.

We could also buy the batteries for those that want to avoid the lease or for those who would mainly charge at home or at stations and not swap batteries.

[Deleted User]

driver100 said:

I think the battery has to be loaded from the front or the back. What if you are on the side of a major highway...where will the battery delivery truck stop?

That could work. The bumpers would hide the batteries and then swing out to provide access.

The other option, especially with fast charging becoming more the norm, is the rescue truck could have a massive onboard capacitor to rapid charge the stranded car enough to get them to the next station.

jmonroe

'driver said:

I think the battery has to be loaded from the front or the back. What if you are on the side of a major highway...where will the battery delivery truck stop?
___________________________________________________________________________

'driver'...you sure are trying to take all the fun out of this, huh ?

jmonroe

stever

Just stick the traction battery in the frunk.

driver100

jmonroe said:

'driver said:

I think the battery has to be loaded from the front or the back. What if you are on the side of a major highway...where will the battery delivery truck stop?
___________________________________________________________________________

'driver'...you sure are trying to take all the fun out of this, huh ?

jmonroe

I come from a family of doubters. If Christopher Columbus was my ancestor he would have just said "what's the point in going all that way just to look for some vacant land?"

driver100

tyguy said:

driver100 said:

I think the battery has to be loaded from the front or the back. What if you are on the side of a major highway...where will the battery delivery truck stop?

That could work. The bumpers would hide the batteries and then swing out to provide access.

The other option, especially with fast charging becoming more the norm, is the rescue truck could have a massive onboard capacitor to rapid charge the stranded car enough to get them to the next station.

Maybe drones could deliver emergency battery packs

jwm40517

Farmer, I saw a car magazine article probably 25 years ago about an early Camaro with two battery powered fork lift motors that ran high 9 second quarter miles.

[Deleted User]

driver100 said:

Maybe drones could deliver emergency battery packs

I ate breakfast with one of my co-workers yesterday, and she mentioned that after she and her husband relocated to Colorado, for the first couple of months she would come home ever day to a new package on the doorstep from Amazon courtesy of her husband. Everything they needed was delivered, even the lawn mower. I pictured what the world would be like if those Amazon drones actually became reality. Talk about liability.

Hey, Driver, the world needs doubters. My favorite scene from the movie World War Z was when the Israeli was explaining the 10th man rule. If 9 people agree, it's the duty of the 10th person to disagree and provide an alternative opinion. I encourage that kind of thinking in my own team of managers at work so we're less likely to be blindsided.

Mr_Shiftright

Removable battery backs remind me of stagecoach technology in the 1870s in the Old West, where you had to switch teams of horses in order to get anywhere.

That didn't last long, either.

henryn

I beg to differ.

By the mid 17th century, a basic stagecoach infrastructure had been put in place.[6] The first stagecoach route started in 1610 and ran from Edinburgh to Leith. This was followed by a steady proliferation of other routes around the country.

…

The development of railways in the 1830s spelt the end for the stagecoaches and mail coaches.

…

United States

Beginning in the 18th century crude wagons began to be used to carry passengers between cities and towns, first within New England in 1744, then between New York and Philadelphia in 1756.

What, 250 years approximately? Automobiles have a long way to go to match that record.

explorerx4

I'm not sure how comfortable people would be, at least at first, switching battery packs. How do you know the new one is any good? Also, people can be possessive.
When you fill up with gas nothing is being taken away from you, other than some cash.

oldfarmer50

tyguy said:

driver100 said:

Maybe drones could deliver emergency battery packs

I ate breakfast with one of my co-workers yesterday, and she mentioned that after she and her husband relocated to Colorado, for the first couple of months she would come home ever day to a new package on the doorstep from Amazon courtesy of her husband. Everything they needed was delivered, even the lawn mower. I pictured what the world would be like if those Amazon drones actually became reality. Talk about liability.

Hey, Driver, the world needs doubters. My favorite scene from the movie World War Z was when the Israeli was explaining the 10th man rule. If 9 people agree, it's the duty of the 10th person to disagree and provide an alternative opinion. I encourage that kind of thinking in my own team of managers at work so we're less likely to be blindsided.

I like that management style as it encourages innovation. My job is the opposite where management is top down and all independent thought is punished. My business on the other hand is nothing but innovation because my bottom line depends on it.

I might like working on your team where someone always has to disagree seeing that on any given day I can be pretty disagreeable.

oldfarmer50

Mr_Shiftright said:

Removable battery backs remind me of stagecoach technology in the 1870s in the Old West, where you had to switch teams of horses in order to get anywhere.

That didn't last long, either.

You might be confusing that with the Pony Express which lasted only about 18 months.

driver100

tyguy said:

driver100 said:

Maybe drones could deliver emergency battery packs

Hey, Driver, the world needs doubters. My favorite scene from the movie World War Z was when the Israeli was explaining the 10th man rule. If 9 people agree, it's the duty of the 10th person to disagree and provide an alternative opinion. I encourage that kind of thinking in my own team of managers at work so we're less likely to be blindsided.

Ty, I like that example and I think there is a lot of value in looking at a problem from all angles. When I worked in publishing some of the best ideas came from criticism, if something could be improved why not listen to the underlings....they are probably closer to the problem than management anyway.

But, at some point you can't just go on criticizing everything. You have to have optimism to move forward and try new things, and if you fail that was just part of the fun to eliminate something that doesn't work, and lead you to your goal.

oldfarmer50

Quite a difference in valuations between Edmunds and KBB on this car:



2005 Grand Prix GT 23,000 miles asking $7250.

Ran it through both appraisers for excellent condition and got $7700 for KBB and just over $5000 for Edmunds.

Wonder what a fair private party price would be if it checked out to be in perfect condition.

driver100

explorerx4 said:

I'm not sure how comfortable people would be, at least at first, switching battery packs. How do you know the new one is any good? Also, people can be possessive.
When you fill up with gas nothing is being taken away from you, other than some cash.

Personally speaking, when I am at Tim Horton's/Dunkin' Donuts I always ask for a paper cup, just in case their dishwasher isn't working that well. But milk, beer, or anything else that comes in recycleable containers doesn't bother me....maybe I am naive but I think they must sterilize those. But a battery, what is the problem...it can get bed bugs or someone spit on it? I am just renting it, and it really belongs to the battery company....kind of like a rented car.