Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

@oldfarmer50,
I think that Mustang was some kind of factory car, not a loaner.
My wife's MKC has the 2.3. It seems pretty peppy.
I liked my Mom's Fiesta, except the DCT transmission.
Not opposed to a small car.

Yeah on further review I see the Fiesta is a sharp little turbo too. 192hp in a light car could be fun. It would depend on the weight. Tougher choice except the drop top would still sway me towards the Mustang.

Throw a low ball at the Mustang and if they don't bite take the Fiesta. Any regrets will be covered by the money you save.

henryn

@oldfarmer50
On that Mercury, it’s worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. There aren’t going to be very many out there with low mileage, in pristine condition. If I were interested, I would go by and look at it, make sure it really is that nice in person, and then make an offer.

And if it is as nice as they say, then I wouldn’t expect to get it for less than $4k.

@murphydog
Your ad for the Ghia looks fine, but I suspect there are not going to be very many people interested in exactly what you’re trying to sell there. This could be a matter of having lots of patience. And as you’re trying to find that one person who wants what you have, then you should post your ad in as many places as possible. Autotrader, Cars.com, anywhere, everywhere.

@abacomike
With your liver, you should not make a habit out of consuming that much alcohol. But you already know that. I’m glad you enjoyed it. Scotch is never going to be my thing, I just don’t like the taste.

oldfarmer50

js06gv said:

oldfarmer50 said:

explorerx4 said:

Considering this to replace the push mower in the garage.
http://www.mitchellseligford.com/new/Ford/2016-Ford-Fiesta-fe7a082e0a0e0a1704ec476abbc200ca.htm?searchDepth=9:99

Also this:
http://lombardford.com/Hartford-Ct/For-Sale/Used/Ford/Mustang/2015-EcoBoost-Premium-Gray-Car/43491371/

You know where I'm going...the Mustang. Have you driven it yet? They say the turbo is pretty impressive with that instant torque. Price seems high. Hard to believe the MSRP was over $30k. (Wait, I see it's a convertible. That explains it.) Funny that they would have a car like that as a service loaner. How many people could drive a manual shift.

Guess it comes down to the practical vs. the exciting. If you can get that Stang down to $25k it might be worth while.

Re your comment about hard to believe over 30K, I built an Ecoboost Mustang Premium on Fords site, fairly loaded but still not with everything, and it was 38K. This was a coupe too, not a convertible. Basically it had the same options as my '15 GT Premium, which listed for $42,600. 

I remember seeing pics of your ceramic interior (which I love) and thought it was leather too, which would indicate a GT Premium, and I know yours is also an automatic so even without a lot of other options your GT must have been pushing 40K list?

No, mine is a base model. Stickered at $34,865. I ended up paying about $4k less. No leather but I saw one once with the ceramic leather and it was beautiful. Couldn't afford the upgrade to Premium so sucks to be me.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

Yes, but the big difference is murder isn't a totally arbitrary rule of law that only began 10 years ago. Murder is considered wrong and unethical in addition to a law that hasn't changed in centuries. When cars of 10 or 20, or 30 years ago are treated differently for no reason other than being "grandfathered" it creates a general feeling of ridiculousness.

Sort of like 55 MPH speed limits.

So because you don't personally agree with a law or rule, you think it can be ignored? Good luck with that.

Yes, it's cost me several tickets over the years but a wise person once said it is immoral to obey and follow unjust laws.

At least with the 55 MPH speed limits, the vast majority of Americans have voted with their left foots, and I'm not alone. Now if we could just get politicians to follow the will of the people.

But the law is unjust based on what standards?

Traffic engineers agree the 85th percentile is the safest standard to set speed limits at, and 55 is not supported in most locations.

Also, if the majority of people ignore the law, maybe there's something wrong with the law?

A lot of traffic engineers will tell you that the 85th percentile is arbitrary and the true number can vary due to many influences.

The number of people following a law or not has no bearing on the justfullness of a law. We must be very careful about saying it is immoral to follow an unjust law to justify disobeying laws we don't like.

No, what is arbitrary is picking a number lower than the 85th percentile due to some obscure outside influences (OK; lets be honest; corrupted made-up reasons to generate revenue). Other than school zones, there really isn't a legitimate public interest in breaking from accepted convention for the safest way to set limits.

No, the 85 percentile number is arbitrary, it could be the 80 percentile or the 90 or any number someone chooses. There is no real rational for that number (or any other). What isn't arbitrary is setting a limit based on something like the line of sight (i.e. a speed at which one can reasonably stop within their sight distance), or based on congestion or other factors.

thebean

snakeweasel said:

If your only experience with scotch before this was Cutty Sark and JB then you are in for a treat. Those two are pretty poor choices and there are some wonderful scotches out there that you can get for under $35-40/bottle.

@snakeweasel, how about some recommendations?  I used to drink scotch, but switched to bourbon because I thought it was a better value (good 100 proof bottled in bond for ~ $20).  I'd really be interested in some good scotches for $35-40.  Thanks.

Larry

houdini1

graphicguy said:

fezo said:

Mike - the little men playing ninepins was in response to your thunder and lightning post.

The price of gas actually went down two cents at Costco. I sure hope this is a sign of things turning around. It's gone up 60 cents from where it was a couple of months ago.

Still, RUG topped out under $2 a gallon which I can't complain about.

Roadburner probably considers being personally responsible for global warming a badge of honor.

Demand on oil is still soft, with little sign of recovery. Shell, Exxon, et al decided to let supplies dwindle. This pricing is, at best, temporary and an attempt to artificially prop up prices. Production hasn't been curbed, so that oil has to go somewhere. It will eventually end up in the storage tanks, regardless of the attempts to draw down inventories.

And this is all before the more stringent CAFE restrictions hit, which will drive demand down. If I were big oil, I'd be building charging stations at all of their gas stations to raise profits instead of this sort of cat and mouse game with oil supply.

Like that Mustang that's being sold as a used car. I don't know....something about a muscle car having a 4 cyl just doesn't sit right with me. I know it's 300+HP. And, I do love me some 4 cyl turbo performance. A proper muscle car needs a V8.

My son has decided to trade his Fiesta. It's been a good car (aside from the rough shifting DSG trans that has been mentioned many times before). But, he's jonesing for a GTI. He's asked me to help with the deal. Any time my son says he wants me to help him, I beam. Should be a fun afternoon.

What if he meant to help with the cash?

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

You can get a British accent on Garmin---man's voice. I'd love to have John Gielgud telling me where to go

I don't much like that "Mrs. Henderson's 2nd grade" kind of voice" they give you by default. There's another female voice that's a bit too chipper for me.

You don't need john Gielgud to tell you where to go! Any of us can do that!

isellhondas

snakeweasel said:

oldfarmer50 said:

I was driving the van the other day and while not a hot rod it was kind of fun going through the gears....until I hit traffic and a string of always red stop lights. Then the thrill vanished real quick. I can't imagine driving through 7-8 gears only to hit a light and then having to do it all over again.

Which is why I tend to shy away from manuals, they're a PITA in the heavy rush hour traffic that is my daily hell commute.

I once owned a 1964 Impala SS that had a 409 and a four speed. The clutch had a VERY heavy feel to it and sitting in heavy traffic was brutal!

ab348

thebean said:

snakeweasel said:

If your only experience with scotch before this was Cutty Sark and JB then you are in for a treat. Those two are pretty poor choices and there are some wonderful scotches out there that you can get for under $35-40/bottle.

@snakeweasel, how about some recommendations?  I used to drink scotch, but switched to bourbon because I thought it was a better value (good 100 proof bottled in bond for ~ $20).  I'd really be interested in some good scotches for $35-40.  Thanks.

Larry

I'm not @snakeweasel but I have a good-sized whisky collection. Most of it is scotch but over the last year or so the prices of most scotch have gone up as the quality has declined thanks to the advent of no-age-statement products, which is a little old scotch mixed with a lot of young spirit. They can come close to replicating the taste of older scotches with this method, mostly, but it is never quite the same, and I don't like them. As a result I am buying almost no scotch now and have switched to bourbons or Canadian whiskies, both of which are much better values. I opened a bottle of Buffalo Trace last night, trying it for the first time, and it is pleasant enough. I really like some of the better Forty Creek Canadian whiskies, though I don't know how widely available they are in the USA.

iluvmysephia1

The Mrs. and I are driving the Kia Soul south to Hot Springs, Arkansas right now. We're in Mt. Ida, AR, as I type this out. Cost of living is low and hot springs are a' plenty here, we're scoping out retirement locations and like this idea. 

We're on a 2-lane highway with twisties all over it....the '11 Kia Soul is takin' 'em like a champ. stever, take note, these cars are Highway Stars on the twisties. What a ball I'm having!

abacomike

I've been carefully researching the new 2017 Mercedes-Benz E300 due into showrooms next month.  There is only one engine available - a 4-cylinder 2.0 liter turbo which is the same engine standard in the C300.  It delivers 241 hp with 268 ft lbs of torque and fuel economy is 22/34 city and highway.  0-60 in 6.4 seconds.  Weight is just over 3900 lbs.  Wheelbase is being increased 2.4 inches and actual length goes up 1.3 inches.

There will be a 6-cylinder E43 AMG-type sedan introduced in Nov/Dec but priced in the $75K - $80K range with about 390 hp.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why Mercedes-Benz would introduce the most technogically sophisticated sedan in the world with an underpowered power plant.  Are they trying to kill the E Class line?  The current E350 delivers 302 hp in the 3.5 liter V6.  The current E400 has a twin turbo 3.0 Liter V6 and delivers 329 hp and 354 ft lbs of torque (my CLS has that engine).  They are discontinuing the E400!

Mercedes-Benz is going to lose tremendous market share to BMW, Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and Audi by this reduction in power.  I am completely dumbfounded by this move. 

graphicguy

houdini1 said:

graphicguy said:

fezo said:

Mike - the little men playing ninepins was in response to your thunder and lightning post.

The price of gas actually went down two cents at Costco. I sure hope this is a sign of things turning around. It's gone up 60 cents from where it was a couple of months ago.

Still, RUG topped out under $2 a gallon which I can't complain about.

Roadburner probably considers being personally responsible for global warming a badge of honor.

Demand on oil is still soft, with little sign of recovery. Shell, Exxon, et al decided to let supplies dwindle. This pricing is, at best, temporary and an attempt to artificially prop up prices. Production hasn't been curbed, so that oil has to go somewhere. It will eventually end up in the storage tanks, regardless of the attempts to draw down inventories.

And this is all before the more stringent CAFE restrictions hit, which will drive demand down. If I were big oil, I'd be building charging stations at all of their gas stations to raise profits instead of this sort of cat and mouse game with oil supply.

Like that Mustang that's being sold as a used car. I don't know....something about a muscle car having a 4 cyl just doesn't sit right with me. I know it's 300+HP. And, I do love me some 4 cyl turbo performance. A proper muscle car needs a V8.

My son has decided to trade his Fiesta. It's been a good car (aside from the rough shifting DSG trans that has been mentioned many times before). But, he's jonesing for a GTI. He's asked me to help with the deal. Any time my son says he wants me to help him, I beam. Should be a fun afternoon.

What if he meant to help with the cash?

Excellent point.

Actually, he asked for no cash....no loan.

We had a fun afternoon. It's been a long time since we did "Father/Son" activities.....even if it was an innocuous car shopping adventure. I took him out for a late breakfast.

We stopped at VW dealer #1, closest to the restaurant, to look at GTIs. It was dead. Salesperson, although older, wasn't real clear on the GTI's features. My son is looking for an S (base) model with the performance pack and LCD lights, with a manual transmission. With the sales person, we perused the lot. They had either "S" models with no Perf Pack or LCD lighting, or the full boat Autobahn Package with everything, including leather, sunroof....all loaded up.

Salesman tried to convince my son that the Performance Package came with all GTIs. My son, having done his homework, knew better.

Then the dance began...nothing on the lot he liked, but the salesman "invited" us into the dealership to search for exactly what my son wanted. He found it at a dealership about 40 miles north of us (S model, with Performance Pack and LCD lights). He said he'd be happy to get it for us if my son gave the dealership $100 to go and get it. He also wanted my son to fill out a credit app. All this, and we hadn't found a car he liked, nor a car he wanted.

Needless to say, we left in a hurry. Terrible experience.

Onto the Honda Store. Busy on a pretty Saturday afternoon. I've got a guy I deal with all the time there. He's been there 20 years. Looking at Civics. He wants an SI, but the new one isn't out yet. And, the previous gen is hard to come by. My sales guy said he'd search and let us know if he finds a previous gen.

Next, the Ford store, to look at the Focus ST (at least I think that's the sport version with the 4 cyl turbo). Fun car to drive....lots of torque...also lots of torque steer to go with it. Kind of chintzy inside, but a lot of performance for the money (mid-high $20s). Rode kind of harsh, too.

Onto Mazda....found a Mazda 6, 6 speed, base. It was a real hoot to drive. I really liked it. My son felt it was too big. But, for low $20s, that's a really nice car. Mazda 3s, again nice car, but they didn't have any manual trans models.

VW store is in the same general area. We walk in, and every car on display was white. It was also a modern looking showroom. As my son said..."This looks like an Apple Store". Anyway, one of the sales managers came out of his office to ask if we had been helped. My son said he was looking for a GTI. SM asked if we'd driven one yet. We said "no". He slapped the tags on a silver one (base S with no Perf Pack).

What a great drive it was. Lots of Audi interior parts on it. Quick, good steering, strong brakes, excellent shifter and a light clutch (although it engaged kind of high). I now see why so many people here like it.

My son asked about an S with Perf Pack and LCDs. SM looked at inventory, but didn't have one. He saw the one at the dealer north of us. He asked my son if he was serious about it. My son said "yes". SM made a quick call on his cell phone. He came back to us and said "I'll have it here Monday night if you really want to test it." My son asked if there was any charge to get the car from the other dealer. SM said the car was something of a "unicorn", but if my son didn't buy it, he said he knew he could sell it, no problem.

So, gives my son the weekend to think about it. We have a good idea of what they're selling for around here. So, unless someone is being unrealistic, I expect my son will have a GTI Monday night.

thebean

ab348 said:

I'm not @snakeweasel but I have a good-sized whisky collection. Most of it is scotch but over the last year or so the prices of most scotch have gone up as the quality has declined thanks to the advent of no-age-statement products, which is a little old scotch mixed with a lot of young spirit. They can come close to replicating the taste of older scotches with this method, mostly, but it is never quite the same, and I don't like them. As a result I am buying almost no scotch now and have switched to bourbons or Canadian whiskies, both of which are much better values. I opened a bottle of Buffalo Trace last night, trying it for the first time, and it is pleasant enough. I really like some of the better Forty Creek Canadian whiskies, though I don't know how widely available they are in the USA.

Thanks @ab348.  Bourbons are losing age statements also - Elijah Craig is the latest (12 YO to no age statement).  I like some Canadian whiskys also - Wisers Legacy is one of my favorites.  I'll give Forty Creek a try - it's available here in Texas.

I can't imagine what Mike's $1,300 bottle of scotch tasted like.  I don't think I'm worth a drink of that caliber.  

stickguy

mike, BMW, Audi, Caddy sell plenty of 4 cyl models. My guess is that MB knows (assumes?) most buyers don't care that much, as long as it drives nice. and has a star! 6.4 is not slow for most people, and those motors tend to have lots of usable torque. Plus probably the cheapest one to introduce. and of course, it gets better MPG (at least on the sticker).

Maybe trying to get people used to the idea, since the "gotta have the newest thing" types will probably be fine with that.

stickguy

GG, I am afraid to drive a GTI. The launch edition Golf stick I drive was already a hoot to drive. The GTI must be a blast.

Michaell

stickguy said:

mike, BMW, Audi, Caddy sell plenty of 4 cyl models. My guess is that MB knows (assumes?) most buyers don't care that much, as long as it drives nice. and has a star! 6.4 is not slow for most people, and those motors tend to have lots of usable torque. Plus probably the cheapest one to introduce. and of course, it gets better MPG (at least on the sticker).

Maybe trying to get people used to the idea, since the "gotta have the newest thing" types will probably be fine with that.

Exactly -- base GS, Q50, 5-series, A6 and CTS all have turbo 4's. MB is just following the crowd.

And, the CAFE regs are sort of forcing the manufacturers into this.

But, as stick noted, most people don't notice ... or care. Only a small fraction of the population make an issue out of it.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

houdini1 said:

graphicguy said:

fezo said:

Mike - the little men playing ninepins was in response to your thunder and lightning post.

The price of gas actually went down two cents at Costco. I sure hope this is a sign of things turning around. It's gone up 60 cents from where it was a couple of months ago.

Still, RUG topped out under $2 a gallon which I can't complain about.

Roadburner probably considers being personally responsible for global warming a badge of honor.

Demand on oil is still soft, with little sign of recovery. Shell, Exxon, et al decided to let supplies dwindle. This pricing is, at best, temporary and an attempt to artificially prop up prices. Production hasn't been curbed, so that oil has to go somewhere. It will eventually end up in the storage tanks, regardless of the attempts to draw down inventories.

And this is all before the more stringent CAFE restrictions hit, which will drive demand down. If I were big oil, I'd be building charging stations at all of their gas stations to raise profits instead of this sort of cat and mouse game with oil supply.

Like that Mustang that's being sold as a used car. I don't know....something about a muscle car having a 4 cyl just doesn't sit right with me. I know it's 300+HP. And, I do love me some 4 cyl turbo performance. A proper muscle car needs a V8.

My son has decided to trade his Fiesta. It's been a good car (aside from the rough shifting DSG trans that has been mentioned many times before). But, he's jonesing for a GTI. He's asked me to help with the deal. Any time my son says he wants me to help him, I beam. Should be a fun afternoon.

What if he meant to help with the cash?

Excellent point.

Actually, he asked for no cash....no loan.

We had a fun afternoon. It's been a long time since we did "Father/Son" activities.....even if it was an innocuous car shopping adventure. I took him out for a late breakfast.

We stopped at VW dealer #1, closest to the restaurant, to look at GTIs. It was dead. Salesperson, although older, wasn't real clear on the GTI's features. My son is looking for an S (base) model with the performance pack and LCD lights, with a manual transmission. With the sales person, we perused the lot. They had either "S" models with no Perf Pack or LCD lighting, or the full boat Autobahn Package with everything, including leather, sunroof....all loaded up.

Salesman tried to convince my son that the Performance Package came with all GTIs. My son, having done his homework, knew better.

Then the dance began...nothing on the lot he liked, but the salesman "invited" us into the dealership to search for exactly what my son wanted. He found it at a dealership about 40 miles north of us (S model, with Performance Pack and LCD lights). He said he'd be happy to get it for us if my son gave the dealership $100 to go and get it. He also wanted my son to fill out a credit app. All this, and we hadn't found a car he liked, nor a car he wanted.

Needless to say, we left in a hurry. Terrible experience.

Onto the Honda Store. Busy on a pretty Saturday afternoon. I've got a guy I deal with all the time there. He's been there 20 years. Looking at Civics. He wants an SI, but the new one isn't out yet. And, the previous gen is hard to come by. My sales guy said he'd search and let us know if he finds a previous gen.

Next, the Ford store, to look at the Focus ST (at least I think that's the sport version with the 4 cyl turbo). Fun car to drive....lots of torque...also lots of torque steer to go with it. Kind of chintzy inside, but a lot of performance for the money (mid-high $20s). Rode kind of harsh, too.

Onto Mazda....found a Mazda 6, 6 speed, base. It was a real hoot to drive. I really liked it. My son felt it was too big. But, for low $20s, that's a really nice car. Mazda 3s, again nice car, but they didn't have any manual trans models.

VW store is in the same general area. We walk in, and every car on display was white. It was also a modern looking showroom. As my son said..."This looks like an Apple Store". Anyway, one of the sales managers came out of his office to ask if we had been helped. My son said he was looking for a GTI. SM asked if we'd driven one yet. We said "no". He slapped the tags on a silver one (base S with no Perf Pack).

What a great drive it was. Lots of Audi interior parts on it. Quick, good steering, strong brakes, excellent shifter and a light clutch (although it engaged kind of high). I now see why so many people here like it.

My son asked about an S with Perf Pack and LCDs. SM looked at inventory, but didn't have one. He saw the one at the dealer north of us. He asked my son if he was serious about it. My son said "yes". SM made a quick call on his cell phone. He came back to us and said "I'll have it here Monday night if you really want to test it." My son asked if there was any charge to get the car from the other dealer. SM said the car was something of a "unicorn", but if my son didn't buy it, he said he knew he could sell it, no problem.

So, gives my son the weekend to think about it. We have a good idea of what they're selling for around here. So, unless someone is being unrealistic, I expect my son will have a GTI Monday night.

That's exactly how I would get a GTI; as I've noted before, all of my local VW dealers are hopeless, so I never seriously considered one. When I asked one dealer about availability of a manual Golf R the SM treated me like an 18 year old looky-loo with a 200 credit score. Screw 'em.

explorerx4

The same 5.0 V8 Mustang has been sitting in my garage for over 25 years, so I'm not hung up on getting a V8.
We like our Ecoboost turbos, so I'm ok looking at vehicles that have that.
When looking up something on the Ford website, a popup appeared offering $750 private cash, so I registered.
Could skew toward buying something new, instead of CPO.

abacomike

@Michaell
@stickguy

Both of you are making sense, however all the luxury brands all offer an optional 6 cylinder engine for another $2500 or so - Mercedes-Benz does not.  Even if you wait until Nov/Dec for the E43, the premium for a 6 cylinder engine is $30,000+.  That's ridiculous!  I will test drive the E300 next month to determine if the 4 cylinder engine provides enough power for the E Class.  My guess is that many MB customers used to a 300+ hp engine will switch to Audi or BMW or even the CT6 (Cadillac) for the added power.

To be continued..,

Michaell

abacomike said:

@Michaell
@stickguy

Both of you are making sense, however all the luxury brands all offer an optional 6 cylinder engine for another $2500 or so - Mercedes-Benz does not.  Even if you wait until Nov/Dec for the E43, the premium for a 6 cylinder engine is $30,000+.  That's ridiculous!  I will test drive the E300 next month to determine if the 4 cylinder engine provides enough power for the E Class.  My guess is that many MB customers used to a 300+ hp engine will switch to Audi or BMW or even the CT6 (Cadillac) for the added power.

To be continued..,

I've got to believe that MB will offer and "in between" 6-cyl engine in the E-class at some point. I agree that not making it available immediately may be a strategic error.

I'll go on the record and state that you'll be underwhelmed with the performance of the new E300 when you do test drive it.

The three cars in my household have 148, 181 and 256 HP. Can't imagine a daily driver with more than 300 HP - I can see why you'd be hesitant to go back to "only" 241.

oldfarmer50

Just took my wife's relative out for a spin in the Mustang. If you have a good memory you might recall me telling how he delt with a hurricane ruining his daughter's wedding in Palm Beach by renting an entire island in Key West. Could afford most any car in the world.

He was very impressed to say the least. I'm sure some of it was just massaging my ego but he did say he was going to see if his wife would let him get one.

28firefighter

graphicguy said:

Excellent point. Actually, he asked for no cash....no loan. We had a fun afternoon. It's been a long time since we did "Father/Son" activities.....even if it was an innocuous car shopping adventure. I took him out for a late breakfast. We stopped at VW dealer #1, closest to the restaurant, to look at GTIs. It was dead. Salesperson, although older, wasn't real clear on the GTI's features. My son is looking for an S (base) model with the performance pack and LCD lights, with a manual transmission. With the sales person, we perused the lot. They had either "S" models with no Perf Pack or LCD lighting, or the full boat Autobahn Package with everything, including leather, sunroof....all loaded up. Salesman tried to convince my son that the Performance Package came with all GTIs. My son, having done his homework, knew better. Then the dance began...nothing on the lot he liked, but the salesman "invited" us into the dealership to search for exactly what my son wanted. He found it at a dealership about 40 miles north of us (S model, with Performance Pack and LCD lights). He said he'd be happy to get it for us if my son gave the dealership $100 to go and get it. He also wanted my son to fill out a credit app. All this, and we hadn't found a car he liked, nor a car he wanted. Needless to say, we left in a hurry. Terrible experience. Onto the Honda Store. Busy on a pretty Saturday afternoon. I've got a guy I deal with all the time there. He's been there 20 years. Looking at Civics. He wants an SI, but the new one isn't out yet. And, the previous gen is hard to come by. My sales guy said he'd search and let us know if he finds a previous gen. Next, the Ford store, to look at the Focus ST (at least I think that's the sport version with the 4 cyl turbo). Fun car to drive....lots of torque...also lots of torque steer to go with it. Kind of chintzy inside, but a lot of performance for the money (mid-high $20s). Rode kind of harsh, too. Onto Mazda....found a Mazda 6, 6 speed, base. It was a real hoot to drive. I really liked it. My son felt it was too big. But, for low $20s, that's a really nice car. Mazda 3s, again nice car, but they didn't have any manual trans models. VW store is in the same general area. We walk in, and every car on display was white. It was also a modern looking showroom. As my son said..."This looks like an Apple Store". Anyway, one of the sales managers came out of his office to ask if we had been helped. My son said he was looking for a GTI. SM asked if we'd driven one yet. We said "no". He slapped the tags on a silver one (base S with no Perf Pack). What a great drive it was. Lots of Audi interior parts on it. Quick, good steering, strong brakes, excellent shifter and a light clutch (although it engaged kind of high). I now see why so many people here like it. My son asked about an S with Perf Pack and LCDs. SM looked at inventory, but didn't have one. He saw the one at the dealer north of us. He asked my son if he was serious about it. My son said "yes". SM made a quick call on his cell phone. He came back to us and said "I'll have it here Monday night if you really want to test it." My son asked if there was any charge to get the car from the other dealer. SM said the car was something of a "unicorn", but if my son didn't buy it, he said he knew he could sell it, no problem. So, gives my son the weekend to think about it. We have a good idea of what they're selling for around here. So, unless someone is being unrealistic, I expect my son will have a GTI Monday night.

That car is an absolute unicorn. Last I heard on the VW boards there was only a handful of S models with Performance Pack and Lighting Pack in the country. I'm surprised the dealer that had it was willing to give it up. 

Its even hard to find what I have, which is an S with Lighting Pack. 

That in mind, I wouldn't expect the normal VW fire sale prices on this particular car. Maybe a few hundred over invoice less incentives. If you sign up for SCCA for a year you can get 500 under invoice less available incentives. Can keep it in your back pocket in case the dealer offers it for less for some reason - which I'd be shocked. 

Good luck to your son! That'll be an incredible car. 

explorerx4

One of my kids got a dog.
It's a female, so it's named Lulu (after Lou Gehrig).
If it was a male, it would have been be Thurman(named after my Dad's favorite player).

driver100

abacomike said:

@Michaell
@stickguy

Both of you are making sense, however all the luxury brands all offer an optional 6 cylinder engine for another $2500 or so - Mercedes-Benz does not.  Even if you wait until Nov/Dec for the E43, the premium for a 6 cylinder engine is $30,000+.  That's ridiculous!  I will test drive the E300 next month to determine if the 4 cylinder engine provides enough power for the E Class.  My guess is that many MB customers used to a 300+ hp engine will switch to Audi or BMW or even the CT6 (Cadillac) for the added power.

To be continued..,

I really don't think I could go back to a 4 cylinder engine with over 20% less horsepower. I tried the bmw 328 and 528 with 4 cylinder engines and they did nothing for me.

Sure hope they'll keep the 330 hp engine in the line-up. I would probably switch brands if all that was offered was a 4.

abacomike

driver100 said:

@Michaell
@stickguy

Both of you are making sense, however all the luxury brands all offer an optional 6 cylinder engine for another $2500 or so - Mercedes-Benz does not.  Even if you wait until Nov/Dec for the E43, the premium for a 6 cylinder engine is $30,000+.  That's ridiculous!  I will test drive the E300 next month to determine if the 4 cylinder engine provides enough power for the E Class.  My guess is that many MB customers used to a 300+ hp engine will switch to Audi or BMW or even the CT6 (Cadillac) for the added power.

To be continued..,

I really don't think I could go back to a 4 cylinder engine with over 20% less horsepower. I tried the bmw 328 and 528 with 4 cylinder engines and they did nothing for me. Sure hope they'll keep the 330 hp engine in the line-up. I would probably switch brands if all that was offered was a 4.

I don't know about Canadian MB's.  They still might offer an E400 up there - but not in the US!

stickguy

with that big of a price delta, I assume there is a huge difference in equipment level. Like the base car comes in a strippo model, and the big engine starts loaded? So you can start with the 4, and add packages until the difference makes more sense for the engine alone.

I drove the RDX a bit for the last few days. I still consider that to be quite a hot rod. so a C class 4 cyl should do me just fine!

driver100

GG, Nice of the salesman to bring the car in....sometimes they don;t discount much once they wet your beak by showing you the actual car.
GTI is hot but VW is desparate for sales.....so hang tough.

berri

all the luxury brands all offer an optional 6 cylinder engine for another $2500 or so - Mercedes-Benz does not.

Sometimes successful organizations get cocky - and then usually stumble before waking up. Plenty to look at besides MB.

andres3

oldfarmer50 said:

You think you had a bad day. How about this guy?



http://www.motortrend.com/news/new-owner-mclaren-650s-crashes-ten-minutes-delivery/?_wcsid=803D36F0164E42D5126522EAB2C8C7A990F2B5DA035E5582

You're supposed to break in a car for about 1,000 miles before you crash it at least! A lease buyer perhaps who doesn't care about long term durability?

andres3

I'm not the one that broke the Parking Police laws; this is how the car was delivered to me.

stickguy

snazzy looking car.

andres3

driver100 said:

States get a LOT of tax revenue, over and over and over again, on just one car. Doesn't seem right, does it?

Lots of things don't seem right when the government is involved:
Gambling is ok if the government is involved.
No proof red light cameras cut down on accidents, but the government can make lots of money from them.

By the way, I read about a way that really cuts down on traffic light corner accidents, but you can't generate money from it. One is to have longer amber lights...just need 2 or 3 extra seconds, and the second is to have a red light in both directions for an extra two seconds. Those two things actually make a big difference.

I think most studies that haven't been corrupted or doctored show that red light cameras actually increase accidents, rather than reduce them. Also, in actuality, as little as 1 second extra yellow light time is plenty to drastically reduce red light running and make intersections safer. Also, drivers should be trained to only go forward on green when it is safe to do so; not just blindly go when the light turns green.

Some NMA members recently got a Philadelphia Traffic Engineer (PE) to admit the reason they added lots of wide bike lanes wasn't due to the number of bicyclists, but to slow people down with purposely poor traffic engineering.

I'm with the NMA on this issue, bicyclists should thank motorists for the roads and bike lanes the car and fuel taxes pay for. In other words, bicyclists are leeches on the roadways they don't pay for.

graphicguy

RB...my son really likes the S and Perf pack. He likes the"sport" models of cars, as does his Dad!

We'll see Monday how the numbers line up. I have a number in mind. Trade involved, so probably some horse trading involved.

We'll see how this plays out.

One of the most impressive cars I've ever driven....GTI! I've driven some impressive cars, too!

andres3

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

qbrozen said:

andres3 said:

Yes, but the big difference is murder isn't a totally arbitrary rule of law that only began 10 years ago. Murder is considered wrong and unethical in addition to a law that hasn't changed in centuries. When cars of 10 or 20, or 30 years ago are treated differently for no reason other than being "grandfathered" it creates a general feeling of ridiculousness.

Sort of like 55 MPH speed limits.

So because you don't personally agree with a law or rule, you think it can be ignored? Good luck with that.

Yes, it's cost me several tickets over the years but a wise person once said it is immoral to obey and follow unjust laws.

At least with the 55 MPH speed limits, the vast majority of Americans have voted with their left foots, and I'm not alone. Now if we could just get politicians to follow the will of the people.

But the law is unjust based on what standards?

Traffic engineers agree the 85th percentile is the safest standard to set speed limits at, and 55 is not supported in most locations.

Also, if the majority of people ignore the law, maybe there's something wrong with the law?

A lot of traffic engineers will tell you that the 85th percentile is arbitrary and the true number can vary due to many influences.

The number of people following a law or not has no bearing on the justfullness of a law. We must be very careful about saying it is immoral to follow an unjust law to justify disobeying laws we don't like.

No, what is arbitrary is picking a number lower than the 85th percentile due to some obscure outside influences (OK; lets be honest; corrupted made-up reasons to generate revenue). Other than school zones, there really isn't a legitimate public interest in breaking from accepted convention for the safest way to set limits.

No, the 85 percentile number is arbitrary, it could be the 80 percentile or the 90 or any number someone chooses. There is no real rational for that number (or any other). What isn't arbitrary is setting a limit based on something like the line of sight (i.e. a speed at which one can reasonably stop within their sight distance), or based on congestion or other factors.

You could go to the 80th or 90th percentile, but there are a lot of studies and vast history of data that show 85 to be the sweet spot safety wise. Line of sight is a good one, I seriously doubt any speed limits are set with that much sophistication or thought; and some cars stop faster than others. Congestion is variable; remember speed limits are a limit, not an "average recommended travel speed."

andres3

graphicguy said:

houdini1 said:

graphicguy said:

fezo said:

Mike - the little men playing ninepins was in response to your thunder and lightning post.

The price of gas actually went down two cents at Costco. I sure hope this is a sign of things turning around. It's gone up 60 cents from where it was a couple of months ago.

Still, RUG topped out under $2 a gallon which I can't complain about.

Roadburner probably considers being personally responsible for global warming a badge of honor.

Demand on oil is still soft, with little sign of recovery. Shell, Exxon, et al decided to let supplies dwindle. This pricing is, at best, temporary and an attempt to artificially prop up prices. Production hasn't been curbed, so that oil has to go somewhere. It will eventually end up in the storage tanks, regardless of the attempts to draw down inventories.

And this is all before the more stringent CAFE restrictions hit, which will drive demand down. If I were big oil, I'd be building charging stations at all of their gas stations to raise profits instead of this sort of cat and mouse game with oil supply.

Like that Mustang that's being sold as a used car. I don't know....something about a muscle car having a 4 cyl just doesn't sit right with me. I know it's 300+HP. And, I do love me some 4 cyl turbo performance. A proper muscle car needs a V8.

My son has decided to trade his Fiesta. It's been a good car (aside from the rough shifting DSG trans that has been mentioned many times before). But, he's jonesing for a GTI. He's asked me to help with the deal. Any time my son says he wants me to help him, I beam. Should be a fun afternoon.

What if he meant to help with the cash?

Excellent point.

Actually, he asked for no cash....no loan.

We had a fun afternoon. It's been a long time since we did "Father/Son" activities.....even if it was an innocuous car shopping adventure. I took him out for a late breakfast.

We stopped at VW dealer #1, closest to the restaurant, to look at GTIs. It was dead. Salesperson, although older, wasn't real clear on the GTI's features. My son is looking for an S (base) model with the performance pack and LCD lights, with a manual transmission. With the sales person, we perused the lot. They had either "S" models with no Perf Pack or LCD lighting, or the full boat Autobahn Package with everything, including leather, sunroof....all loaded up.

Salesman tried to convince my son that the Performance Package came with all GTIs. My son, having done his homework, knew better.

Then the dance began...nothing on the lot he liked, but the salesman "invited" us into the dealership to search for exactly what my son wanted. He found it at a dealership about 40 miles north of us (S model, with Performance Pack and LCD lights). He said he'd be happy to get it for us if my son gave the dealership $100 to go and get it. He also wanted my son to fill out a credit app. All this, and we hadn't found a car he liked, nor a car he wanted.

Needless to say, we left in a hurry. Terrible experience.

Onto the Honda Store. Busy on a pretty Saturday afternoon. I've got a guy I deal with all the time there. He's been there 20 years. Looking at Civics. He wants an SI, but the new one isn't out yet. And, the previous gen is hard to come by. My sales guy said he'd search and let us know if he finds a previous gen.

Next, the Ford store, to look at the Focus ST (at least I think that's the sport version with the 4 cyl turbo). Fun car to drive....lots of torque...also lots of torque steer to go with it. Kind of chintzy inside, but a lot of performance for the money (mid-high $20s). Rode kind of harsh, too.

Onto Mazda....found a Mazda 6, 6 speed, base. It was a real hoot to drive. I really liked it. My son felt it was too big. But, for low $20s, that's a really nice car. Mazda 3s, again nice car, but they didn't have any manual trans models.

VW store is in the same general area. We walk in, and every car on display was white. It was also a modern looking showroom. As my son said..."This looks like an Apple Store". Anyway, one of the sales managers came out of his office to ask if we had been helped. My son said he was looking for a GTI. SM asked if we'd driven one yet. We said "no". He slapped the tags on a silver one (base S with no Perf Pack).

What a great drive it was. Lots of Audi interior parts on it. Quick, good steering, strong brakes, excellent shifter and a light clutch (although it engaged kind of high). I now see why so many people here like it.

My son asked about an S with Perf Pack and LCDs. SM looked at inventory, but didn't have one. He saw the one at the dealer north of us. He asked my son if he was serious about it. My son said "yes". SM made a quick call on his cell phone. He came back to us and said "I'll have it here Monday night if you really want to test it." My son asked if there was any charge to get the car from the other dealer. SM said the car was something of a "unicorn", but if my son didn't buy it, he said he knew he could sell it, no problem.

So, gives my son the weekend to think about it. We have a good idea of what they're selling for around here. So, unless someone is being unrealistic, I expect my son will have a GTI Monday night.

The GTI is an excellent car. There is something magical about the new MK7 platform/Chassis VW/Audi have produced, and it all starts with being light, strong, and balanced. The '15+ GTI reminds me of my '06 A3; VW has caught up in every way (and the price too!). In a base "S" trim with the nice plaid cloth seats, it is probably very light and nimble. I like the base model too, but you can't get it with the "Fender" audio. To me that would be the only reason to upgrade to a higher trim, but then your forced to go leather along with a lot of other high priced gizmos.

andres3

stickguy said:

GG, I am afraid to drive a GTI. The launch edition Golf stick I drive was already a hoot to drive. The GTI must be a blast.

And then if you really want to tart it up. there's the Golf R, leather seats, no sunroof, no spare tire. Good luck trying to find one to test drive at a dealer that doesn't act like it is lined in platinum.

andres3

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:

houdini1 said:

graphicguy said:

fezo said:

Mike - the little men playing ninepins was in response to your thunder and lightning post.

The price of gas actually went down two cents at Costco. I sure hope this is a sign of things turning around. It's gone up 60 cents from where it was a couple of months ago.

Still, RUG topped out under $2 a gallon which I can't complain about.

Roadburner probably considers being personally responsible for global warming a badge of honor.

Demand on oil is still soft, with little sign of recovery. Shell, Exxon, et al decided to let supplies dwindle. This pricing is, at best, temporary and an attempt to artificially prop up prices. Production hasn't been curbed, so that oil has to go somewhere. It will eventually end up in the storage tanks, regardless of the attempts to draw down inventories.

And this is all before the more stringent CAFE restrictions hit, which will drive demand down. If I were big oil, I'd be building charging stations at all of their gas stations to raise profits instead of this sort of cat and mouse game with oil supply.

Like that Mustang that's being sold as a used car. I don't know....something about a muscle car having a 4 cyl just doesn't sit right with me. I know it's 300+HP. And, I do love me some 4 cyl turbo performance. A proper muscle car needs a V8.

My son has decided to trade his Fiesta. It's been a good car (aside from the rough shifting DSG trans that has been mentioned many times before). But, he's jonesing for a GTI. He's asked me to help with the deal. Any time my son says he wants me to help him, I beam. Should be a fun afternoon.

What if he meant to help with the cash?

Excellent point.

Actually, he asked for no cash....no loan.

We had a fun afternoon. It's been a long time since we did "Father/Son" activities.....even if it was an innocuous car shopping adventure. I took him out for a late breakfast.

We stopped at VW dealer #1, closest to the restaurant, to look at GTIs. It was dead. Salesperson, although older, wasn't real clear on the GTI's features. My son is looking for an S (base) model with the performance pack and LCD lights, with a manual transmission. With the sales person, we perused the lot. They had either "S" models with no Perf Pack or LCD lighting, or the full boat Autobahn Package with everything, including leather, sunroof....all loaded up.

Salesman tried to convince my son that the Performance Package came with all GTIs. My son, having done his homework, knew better.

Then the dance began...nothing on the lot he liked, but the salesman "invited" us into the dealership to search for exactly what my son wanted. He found it at a dealership about 40 miles north of us (S model, with Performance Pack and LCD lights). He said he'd be happy to get it for us if my son gave the dealership $100 to go and get it. He also wanted my son to fill out a credit app. All this, and we hadn't found a car he liked, nor a car he wanted.

Needless to say, we left in a hurry. Terrible experience.

Onto the Honda Store. Busy on a pretty Saturday afternoon. I've got a guy I deal with all the time there. He's been there 20 years. Looking at Civics. He wants an SI, but the new one isn't out yet. And, the previous gen is hard to come by. My sales guy said he'd search and let us know if he finds a previous gen.

Next, the Ford store, to look at the Focus ST (at least I think that's the sport version with the 4 cyl turbo). Fun car to drive....lots of torque...also lots of torque steer to go with it. Kind of chintzy inside, but a lot of performance for the money (mid-high $20s). Rode kind of harsh, too.

Onto Mazda....found a Mazda 6, 6 speed, base. It was a real hoot to drive. I really liked it. My son felt it was too big. But, for low $20s, that's a really nice car. Mazda 3s, again nice car, but they didn't have any manual trans models.

VW store is in the same general area. We walk in, and every car on display was white. It was also a modern looking showroom. As my son said..."This looks like an Apple Store". Anyway, one of the sales managers came out of his office to ask if we had been helped. My son said he was looking for a GTI. SM asked if we'd driven one yet. We said "no". He slapped the tags on a silver one (base S with no Perf Pack).

What a great drive it was. Lots of Audi interior parts on it. Quick, good steering, strong brakes, excellent shifter and a light clutch (although it engaged kind of high). I now see why so many people here like it.

My son asked about an S with Perf Pack and LCDs. SM looked at inventory, but didn't have one. He saw the one at the dealer north of us. He asked my son if he was serious about it. My son said "yes". SM made a quick call on his cell phone. He came back to us and said "I'll have it here Monday night if you really want to test it." My son asked if there was any charge to get the car from the other dealer. SM said the car was something of a "unicorn", but if my son didn't buy it, he said he knew he could sell it, no problem.

So, gives my son the weekend to think about it. We have a good idea of what they're selling for around here. So, unless someone is being unrealistic, I expect my son will have a GTI Monday night.

That's exactly how I would get a GTI; as I've noted before, all of my local VW dealers are hopeless, so I never seriously considered one. When I asked one dealer about availability of a manual Golf R the SM treated me like an 18 year old looky-loo with a 200 credit score. Screw 'em.

I was using the Edmunds App (which is very cool and good) to locate Golf R's anywhere, even 500 miles away. A salesman in the bay area of CA didn't even want to go to the manager with my "Audi club discount of 6%" offer on a Golf R." Didn't even try; said she couldn't go to the manager with that. I think the car's still sitting collecting dust too. Silly.

28firefighter

The alternative to getting the SE with Fender is to get the S with a soundbox in the hatch. A plug-and-play accessory that replaces the spare and adds an amp and sub to the stock radio. Supposedly the door speakers are the same between the stock and fender audio, so this fixes the stock audio shortcomings. 

Its on my list after tint, which I'm doing in two weeks. 

stickguy

no spare tire? No sale.

andres3

stickguy said:

no spare tire? No sale.

If you told the salesman that I'm sure they'd throw one into the cargo area for you. Now does it have to be "hidden" from view?

28firefighter

Yeah. I mean the S comes with a donut I believe. So you'll have it when you replace it with the soundbox. Just won't be in the car unless you just keep it in the hatch. 

I shouldn't be so cavalier. I'm sure as soon as I yank the spare I'll get my first flat in 13 years of driving. 

andres3

28firefighter said:

The alternative to getting the SE with Fender is to get the S with a soundbox in the hatch. A plug-and-play accessory that replaces the spare and adds an amp and sub to the stock radio. Supposedly the door speakers are the same between the stock and fender audio, so this fixes the stock audio shortcomings. 

Its on my list after tint, which I'm doing in two weeks. 

I find that hard to believe, but it's possible; the stock sound system didn't suck which is nice, and I have high sound quality standards. That being said, I carefully compared and listened to the base vs. Fender in '15 Sportwagens, and I'd bet money the tweeters on the A-pillar are different (besides just the fancy grill covers). The highs sounded much better w/ Fender.

TTS Report:

1) I love the LED headlights, white and bright at night! (hey that rhymes). The LED brake lights are cool too.
2) There are some white colored accent lights in the interior at night (cool).
3) The Bang and Olufsen Audio at $950 is a vast improvement over the $850 version in the S4. This was a very pleasant surprise! That $100 upgrade is well worth it.
4) The engine seems to have no friction loss or engine braking even at high speed RPM; maybe the low Coefficient of Drag helps assist that feeling.
5) You can't tell the engine is on at idle in any way shape or form. A hound couldn't hear, smell, or feel the engine vibration at idle from inside; completely balanced and isolated from the cabin. Idle's at 750 RPM.

Michaell

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

GG, I am afraid to drive a GTI. The launch edition Golf stick I drive was already a hoot to drive. The GTI must be a blast.

And then if you really want to tart it up. there's the Golf R, leather seats, no sunroof, no spare tire. Good luck trying to find one to test drive at a dealer that doesn't act like it is lined in platinum.

In the Golf R lease discussion, just had a poster tell me that their local dealer (Portland, OR), is asking $47K for their one and only car in inventory.

28firefighter

Michaell said:

GG, I am afraid to drive a GTI. The launch edition Golf stick I drive was already a hoot to drive. The GTI must be a blast.

And then if you really want to tart it up. there's the Golf R, leather seats, no sunroof, no spare tire. Good luck trying to find one to test drive at a dealer that doesn't act like it is lined in platinum.

In the Golf R lease discussion, just had a poster tell me that their local dealer (Portland, OR), is asking $47K for their one and only car in inventory.

That's absurd. You can buy an S3 for that money. 

Michaell

28firefighter said:

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

GG, I am afraid to drive a GTI. The launch edition Golf stick I drive was already a hoot to drive. The GTI must be a blast.

And then if you really want to tart it up. there's the Golf R, leather seats, no sunroof, no spare tire. Good luck trying to find one to test drive at a dealer that doesn't act like it is lined in platinum.

In the Golf R lease discussion, just had a poster tell me that their local dealer (Portland, OR), is asking $47K for their one and only car in inventory.

That's absurd. You can buy an S3 for that money. 

Yeah, that's quite true. Told the OP to expand the search area. They're rare, but not that rare.

28firefighter

Michaell said:

Michaell said:

GG, I am afraid to drive a GTI. The launch edition Golf stick I drive was already a hoot to drive. The GTI must be a blast.

And then if you really want to tart it up. there's the Golf R, leather seats, no sunroof, no spare tire. Good luck trying to find one to test drive at a dealer that doesn't act like it is lined in platinum.

In the Golf R lease discussion, just had a poster tell me that their local dealer (Portland, OR), is asking $47K for their one and only car in inventory.

That's absurd. You can buy an S3 for that money. 

Yeah, that's quite true. Told the OP to expand the search area. They're rare, but not that rare.

One dealer around Portland has 3 and another has 2. I'm 99% sure I know which dealer he is at and he should look elsewhere. 

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

One of my kids got a dog.
It's a female, so it's named Lulu (after Lou Gehrig).
If it was a male, it would have been be Thurman(named after my Dad's favorite player).

That is one cute pup!

sda

stickguy said:

mike, BMW, Audi, Caddy sell plenty of 4 cyl models. My guess is that MB knows (assumes?) most buyers don't care that much, as long as it drives nice. and has a star! 6.4 is not slow for most people, and those motors tend to have lots of usable torque. Plus probably the cheapest one to introduce. and of course, it gets better MPG (at least on the sticker).

Maybe trying to get people used to the idea, since the "gotta have the newest thing" types will probably be fine with that.

I haven't driven a BMW, MB or Audi with a 4 cylinder turbo. Turbos typically have good midrange power and feel. I know my 06 Passat 2.0t did. My question is are these new engines as refined (NVH) as the 6 cylinders? It would be a disappointment to me if I was spending that much on a premium car and find the engine, though powerful, not sound as nice or be as smooth as say a lesser car with a V6.

stickguy

they do a pretty good job with isolation these days. And the sound seems to be all artificially piped in anyway, so can make it sound like anything they want!

GG has the 2.0T in his CTS, and seems to love the motor.

ab348

stickguy said:

they do a pretty good job with isolation these days. And the sound seems to be all artificially piped in anyway, so can make it sound like anything they want!

GG has the 2.0T in his CTS, and seems to love the motor.

That engine is also in my ATS. It is remarkable how much power it produces - rated at 272HP. Makes the ATS into a little hot rod. Funny how there is such a disparity in output from the various 2L 4-cyl engines from various manufacturers. From just a little over 200HP in some to nearly 300 or more from others. It is very smooth so no issues on that score. The sound is still a typical 4-cylinder sound, different from the "motorboat" warble of a lot of V-6s and the rumble of V-8s. That is something some people don't like, but in my case I figure a Cadillac should be quiet, so it doesn't bother me.