Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

driver100

henryn said:

sda said:

henryn said:

qbrozen said:

you are leaving out the interest on that down payment if you roll it into the payment, plus the fees they gloss over (acquisition, title, doc), which I am estimating to be about $1200 (actually probably even higher than that).

So I'm adding $3500 to the top line, which is about $105/mo on a 36-mo lease.

And this is all before tax, mind you.

I usually don't pay much attention to leases, as I don't think they make sense in my state (Texas). You have to pay 6.25% sales tax (around $1,500 right there), and you don't even own it. At the end of the lease, if you wanted to buy it, you would have to pay sales tax (again). Crazy, and I'm not going there.

Although there are some who would say I'm already there, but you should discount those stories. After all, I'm hanging out here with all of you perfectly fine, sane people, right?

Any nibbles on the DTS? That is a sharp looking car.

And as the car is owned by the leasing company, not you, then when the lease is up, if you want to buy it, then you pay 6.25% on the residual. So if the negotiated price is $25,000, and the residual is $15,000, you have to pay 6.25% up front against the $25,000, or $1,562.50. Then, in 3 years, if you want to keep the car, you have to pay 6.25% against the residual $15,000, or another $937.50 in sales tax.

Like I said, crazy.

That would be crazy if you have to pay sales tax on the total price of the car. You'd have to get an incredible lease deal to make up for that scam... would only make sense to the government.

Michaell

oldfarmer50 said:

In NY, you pay tax on the sum of the payments. Up front, or you can add that amount to the cap cost that is subject to interest. Really? Not the total MSRP? So on that $99 36mo Fusion deal the sales tax would be only on the aprox $3600 total of payments? Stickguy's method has it's merits.

Plus the tax on the down payment as well. But yes, 8% or so on the $3600. 

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

In NY, you pay tax on the sum of the payments. Up front, or you can add that amount to the cap cost that is subject to interest.

Really? Not the total MSRP? So on that $99 36mo Fusion deal the sales tax would be only on the aprox $3600 total of payments?

Stickguy's method has it's merits.

And that is the way it should be

stickguy

driver100 said:

Stick - to be consistent, I gave them all the same terms. 3/36, and I would write a check for $1,000 at drive off. So from my standpoint, the only variable was what the 35 other payments were going to be!

Stick, isn't another variable the buy back price?

I found that can vary a lot, and the monthly can change considerably.....if people only look at the monthly they may actually end up paying more.

not sure what you mean. If the residual, I don't care since I am not buying it out at the end. If you mean the give it back to them fee (a total scam idea IMO), that I do look at to make sure it is reasonable, but that I believe is fixed by the car company and the dealer can't fiddle with it.

Michaell

Correct - residual value is set by the bank. Dealer cannot modify. Better to lease a car with a high residual. Lower trim levels often have a higher residual value - think Accord LX vs EX-L. 

snakeweasel

PF_Flyer said:

I'm just sayin'... if it keeps raining, I'm either gonna build a boat or shop for one of these..

I often wonder about the legalities of those things. Boats and cars have different registration requirements. In the water does that "car" still have to have a visible hull registration number?

snakeweasel

jmonroe said:

Subie salesman when she took her car in for an oil change the other day at the dealership. It seems that he was at the Subie service dept. and saw it was a 6 cylinder and inquired who owned the car because he had a customer who wanted a used 6 cylinder Legacy in good shape with low miles. Her car is a '12 Legacy Limited with just a few ticks under 25K miles. The salesman said he could give her a knock out price for it after he took it for a test drive and it ran as good as it looked. Her response was "no thanks, I don't want another car". The salesman said, "maybe your husband would want to hear what I can give for the car. Shouldn't he should be in on the decision"? That did it, she said she told him that it was her car and that I had nothing to do with selling her car.

Damn, all of a sudden she's the boss and can kill a deal whenever she wants to. :@

jmonroe

I wonder if the salesman was just saying that to get a sale. Last time I was car shopping I had a few salesmen tell me they just had someone in their showroom looking for the exact car I was going to trade in.

driver100

stickguy said:

driver100 said:

Stick - to be consistent, I gave them all the same terms. 3/36, and I would write a check for $1,000 at drive off. So from my standpoint, the only variable was what the 35 other payments were going to be!

Stick, isn't another variable the buy back price?

I found that can vary a lot, and the monthly can change considerably.....if people only look at the monthly they may actually end up paying more.

not sure what you mean. If the residual, I don't care since I am not buying it out at the end. If you mean the give it back to them fee (a total scam idea IMO), that I do look at to make sure it is reasonable, but that I believe is fixed by the car company and the dealer can't fiddle with it.

Even if I thought I was going to hand the car in at the end of the lease I would want an option to buy. What if we suddenly needed a second car, what if a friend or a kid wanted to buy it at the end of the lease? What if I loved the car or if my financial situation changed......it could give me a good option. I might find my job changed so I have a 3 year old car with only 10k miles on it.....or if I put excess miles on it I may find it better to buy it than pay for the mileage.

Just leaves you an extra option in case of the unexpected.

driver100

Michaell said:

Correct - residual value is set by the bank. Dealer cannot modify. Better to lease a car with a high residual. Lower trim levels often have a higher residual value - think Accord LX vs EX-L. 

When I leased my 1995 Jeep Cherokee Limited the second dealer I went to was $25 a month less for the lease, and the buy back was $400 less. I bought from the second dealer, though the first dealer did all the work selling me on the Jeep. The second dealer got the Jeep from the first dealer in a trade.

Michaell

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

Correct - residual value is set by the bank. Dealer cannot modify. Better to lease a car with a high residual. Lower trim levels often have a higher residual value - think Accord LX vs EX-L. 

When I leased my 1995 Jeep Cherokee Limited the second dealer I went to was $25 a month less for the lease, and the buy back was $400 less. I bought from the second dealer, though the first dealer did all the work selling me on the Jeep. The second dealer got the Jeep from the first dealer in a trade.

It's possible that dealer 2 used a different bank than dealer 1. Chrysler has been known to do that.

Ally bank has very different numbers than Chrysler Capital.

stickguy

well, I could buy it out. and if my use doesn't change, it will only have about 20K on it. no clue at this point if the $ will make sense (I think the residual is close to 18K) or not. But what is the fun of keeping it instead of getting something else? There are lots of options for that much money!

tjc78

@driver100
I love HUD and really miss it on the Enclave.  The Lacrosse display wasn't color but pretty much gave you info on everything. Speed, signals, RPM, GPS, song titles etc

@stickguy
Once you know you have a decent selling price on a lease then you can work out the payment game.  When I got the Enclave I negotiated a great selling price but the payment didn't make sense from my numbers.   Ahh....  they were marking up the MF.  No no there, but in the end it all worked out and I was really happy with the deal.  They were surprised I caught it, guess they forget about sites like Edmunds with published numbers! 

driver100

Michaell said:

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

Correct - residual value is set by the bank. Dealer cannot modify. Better to lease a car with a high residual. Lower trim levels often have a higher residual value - think Accord LX vs EX-L. 

When I leased my 1995 Jeep Cherokee Limited the second dealer I went to was $25 a month less for the lease, and the buy back was $400 less. I bought from the second dealer, though the first dealer did all the work selling me on the Jeep. The second dealer got the Jeep from the first dealer in a trade.

It's possible that dealer 2 used a different bank than dealer 1. Chrysler has been known to do that.

Ally bank has very different numbers than Chrysler Capital.

That sounds possible. But, could there be other variables...sometimes companies like Chrysler finance their own deals if they have cash and want to move some metal? Also, in 1995 there wasn't much internet, so dealers could make up their own lease prices. In my case the lower price was from a dealer in a less prosperous town.

driver100

Stick, I usually like a change too, but sometimes it is nice to have the option to buy back.

Ty: I don't think I have heard a negative about HUD, in fact a lot of praise. I wonder if it is offered on MB or European cars? Never saw it offered or talked about.

js06gv

@henryn, I am currently in a Texas lease and, as you state, I paid sales tax up front on the full purchase price. I had heard something similar about what happens if the vehicle is purchased for the residual a at lease end. But did a little research and found this:

"Texas state laws consider the sale of a vehicle by a lease company at lease-end to be a separate sale, although a special one, and the lessee is not charged sales tax again if the correct amount of tax was paid originally at the beginning of the lease."

So still worse than most states, but I guess not as bad as it could be. Doesn't matter for me either way as I'll be ready for something different in Feb. and am not purchasing.

The ridiculous part to me in Texas is when a vehicle is sold, say, five times in its lifetime. If these transactions happen legitimately and according to the law, every buyer pays sales tax again even though the original purchaser paid full sales tax on the original price. I'm unsure if this works the same way in other states.

graphicguy

Driver...Mike...I felt the same about the CLA.....farily underwhelming.

That said, it is a looker., at least on the outside. Inside is sort of a mish-mash of shapes and hard plastic. I get it. They're hitting a price point. But, for less same (probably a lot less) money, I'd get an Accord and be much, much happier.

Once the CLA breaks into the $35K-$40K realm, it makes no sense whatsoever.

graphicguy

Sales tax....In Ohio you just pay sales tax on the monthly lease amount, or on a purchase with a trade, the delta between the trade price and the purchase price.

Yet, when you sell the new car you just bought, somewhere down the road, the new purchaser pays tax on the transaction again. And, it keeps repeating itself until the car is deemed to be worth nothing.

States get a LOT of tax revenue, over and over and over again, on just one car. Doesn't seem right, does it?

houdini1

When I was younger we leased a few cars and never had a problem when turning them back in. Then in the mid 90's we leased a Lexus RX. We had leased thru the manufacturer always before, but this time went thru a bank because the monthly payment was $10,/$15. less.

Long story short, the bank made up the diff. when we returned the car. They hired a company to come out and inspect the car, and this guy had a camera that could focus extremely close up and make the smallest little scratch or ding look like the Grand Canyon. Cost me an extra $350. bucks. :@ The thing about experience: You never get it until right after you needed it.

driver100

graphicguy said:

Driver...Mike...I felt the same about the CLA.....farily underwhelming.

That said, it is a looker., at least on the outside. Inside is sort of a mish-mash of shapes and hard plastic. I get it. They're hitting a price point. But, for less same (probably a lot less) money, I'd get an Accord and be much, much happier.

Once the CLA breaks into the $35K-$40K realm, it makes no sense whatsoever.

I was thinking about the CLA and I would prefer the $23000 Passat to the CLA if it had a turbo. It is more comfortable with a huge backseat area, and it looks a lot nicer inside. The GPS screen in the CLA looks like they forgot to work it into the design. It is actually held in place by a bracket! I can see why Mike was glad to get back into his own car.





My car was supposed to be ready at 5 p.m. yesterday but they had trouble getting the software updates done. So, I can use the CLA until that is all caught up later today.

[Deleted User]

driver100 said:

Stick, I usually like a change too, but sometimes it is nice to have the option to buy back.

Ty: I don't think I have heard a negative about HUD, in fact a lot of praise. I wonder if it is offered on MB or European cars? Never saw it offered or talked about.

Hey Driver. Yes, MB is offering HUD along with BMW and Audi. GM and Lexus are offering it, too. I love the concept but have only experienced it on a BMW 3 series test drive, so can't attest to whether or not I'd use it long term. I think my acceptance of it would be dependent on the design of the dash and windshield such that there was still plenty of open space around the HUD. If the dash were particularly tall and the windshield short, then I'd probably turn off HUD.

driver100

States get a LOT of tax revenue, over and over and over again, on just one car. Doesn't seem right, does it?

Lots of things don't seem right when the government is involved:
Gambling is ok if the government is involved.
No proof red light cameras cut down on accidents, but the government can make lots of money from them.

By the way, I read about a way that really cuts down on traffic light corner accidents, but you can't generate money from it. One is to have longer amber lights...just need 2 or 3 extra seconds, and the second is to have a red light in both directions for an extra two seconds. Those two things actually make a big difference.

stickguy

No money in that driver. Like you noted, they are more interested in revenue than safety.

[Deleted User]

driver100 said:

States get a LOT of tax revenue, over and over and over again, on just one car. Doesn't seem right, does it?

Lots of things don't seem right when the government is involved:
Gambling is ok if the government is involved.
No proof red light cameras cut down on accidents, but the government can make lots of money from them.

By the way, I read about a way that really cuts down on traffic light corner accidents, but you can't generate money from it. One is to have longer amber lights...just need 2 or 3 extra seconds, and the second is to have a red light in both directions for an extra two seconds. Those two things actually make a big difference.

So much truth here.

oldfarmer50

You think you had a bad day. How about this guy?



http://www.motortrend.com/news/new-owner-mclaren-650s-crashes-ten-minutes-delivery/?_wcsid=803D36F0164E42D5126522EAB2C8C7A990F2B5DA035E5582

PF_Flyer

snakeweasel said:

PF_Flyer said:

I'm just sayin'... if it keeps raining, I'm either gonna build a boat or shop for one of these..

I often wonder about the legalities of those things. Boats and cars have different registration requirements. In the water does that "car" still have to have a visible hull registration number?

I'm pretty sure they do. Saw a show about restoring one of them. I think it was a British show. Was interesting, but I can't imagine owning one for anything other than the curiousity value. I might as well get a racehorse while I'm at it. nothing like an "investment" that has to eat

stickguy

Wheeler dealers. And yes, needs both registrations and full boat inspection.

jmonroe

'tyguy' said:

Dealers still think and speak like that? That's terrible. I'd encourage my wife to call the general manager and let him/her know to never contact us again.
______________________________________________________________________________

After Mrs. j let him know in no uncertain terms that she did not want to hear anymore about his giving her a good deal on her car, he put his business card back in his pocket and that was the end of the conversation.

This all happened on Monday morning and I have not gotten a call yet but it is early in the month so who knows? He may still call at the end of the month if he needs his bogey. The only way for him to call is to get our phone number from the service dept. If he does this I WILL call the sales manager. I hope it doesn't come to this but if it does, the sales manager will probably say something like..."C'mon Mr. jmonroe, our salesmen work on commission, so he is just trying to be sure you haven't changed your mind. I'll make sure he doesn't call you again".

TO BE CONTINUED (but I hope not)

jmonroe

jmonroe

'snake' said:

I wonder if the salesman was just saying that to get a sale. Last time I was car shopping I had a few salesmen tell me they just had someone in their showroom looking for the exact car I was going to trade in.
______________________________________________________________________________

'snake', that is possible and I have heard of this tactic before. In fact, in the 70's a close friend at work had it happen to him while trying to buy a Chevy but it didn't work.

If that ever happened to me, I would dig in and want more for my trade. When the salesman would ask where I got my number, I would say, "from you. You're going to have an easy sale of my car so why shouldn't I get more money for it" ? I'm sure he/she wouldn't like to hear that but that's the way I would handle it.

jmonroe

jmonroe

'js06gv' said:

The ridiculous part to me in Texas is when a vehicle is sold, say, five times in its lifetime. If these transactions happen legitimately and according to the law, every buyer pays sales tax again even though the original purchaser paid full sales tax on the original price. I'm unsure if this works the same way in other states
__________________________________________________________________________

In PA you pay sales tax on a car every time it is sold just like in Texas.

Let me tell you a story about this:

In 1977 I bought a '75 Grand Prix as a private sale. When we agreed on the price, I told the guy that when we do the paper work at the bank I wanted him to say that he sold the car to me for less than the actual agreed upon price so that I would save money on taxes. He was very hesitant about doing this but I assured him it's done all the time and as long as he wasn't saying he sold it for some ridiculous low price there would be no problem. I bought his car for $3800 and I'm pretty sure I wanted him to say he sold it to me for $2800 because he should say the car was only in fair condition vs. the very good condition that it was in. Like I said the guy was hesitant but he finally agreed.

Fast forward to when we are sitting at the bank and the loan guy pushes himself away from his desk and says to me and the seller, "now, I'm not supposed to hear what you say to each other but what price do you want me to show as the selling price. This is a pet peeve of mine because the state will get tax money on this car until it goes to its grave. They have already collected taxes when it was sold the first time and now they want more and they are going to get more. So, it's up to you two to determine how much they get this time". The seller looks at me and says, "I guess this does happen all the time" and he tells the bank guy $2800.

This is my favorite story when it comes to collecting taxes on car.

jmonroe

js06gv

@jmonroe,that tactic used to work for years in Texas too but the municipalities got wise to it and now they determine the amount on which the buyer pays sales tax "per their system" regardless of the transaction price, made up or real (even with documentation).

This is their way of punishing us, the consumers, for all our tricks over the years. Now, even when I truly pay $2,000 for a $4,000 car and can prove it, I'll still have to pay taxes on $4,000 if that's what the county, city, etc determines the market value is.

I, of course, agree with your 1970s banker.

stever

Texas even has their own version of a TMV calculation tool, but you gotta have a VIN.

My $1,700 minivan is worth $4,225 in Texas.

stickguy

Jersey is the same (tax every time sold). But since you get a trade in credit (which makes no real sense), on a pricier car @ 7% tax rate, you have to get a big bump on the private sales price to make it worthwhile.

I remember once I sold a car to my mailman, and he went off and registered it (the seller has nothing to do with that part, so no clue what they claim to have paid). He must have been "aggressive" with his #, because a few months later, I got a letter in the mail from the state tax dept. asking me to verify. Since I wanted my mail to continue, I BS'd a story about it needing work and confirming the price. if it had been a random stranger, I would have told the truth to stay out of it.

that was a long time ago. maybe it is what I actually got for it? I do know I got way less than I originally wanted for it!

fezo

Back when I bought that Celica I pulled the tax trick. It was around $5000. I had the seller sign a little note saying it was $500 and needed work. Sure enough the state sends me a "why so little" note. I never actually responded and since this was many years ago I'm not worried.

Mike, how are the little men playing ninepins in the hills?

explorerx4

@sStever, Everything's bigger in Texas

stever

Hey, that means it's worth $10,436 in Alaska. Road trip!

abacomike

explorerx4 said:

@sStever, Everything's bigger in Texas

I'm packing my bags as quickly as I can! 

Mr_Shiftright

explorerx4 said:

@sStever, Everything's bigger in Texas

Does that include people's heads? Wow.....

Texas says my MINI is worth $2,300. I told Texas "$4,000 and it's yours".

oldfarmer50

Mr_Shiftright said:

explorerx4 said:

@sStever, Everything's bigger in Texas

Does that include people's heads? Wow.....

Texas says my MINI is worth $2,300. I told Texas "$4,000 and it's yours".

Wonder what my van is worth down there? Do they have a NY rust factor in that calculator?

explorerx4

Sad garage picture. Needs to be fixed.

stickguy

I am so glad that I don't have a post in the middle of my 2 car garage. But still better than not having a garage at all!

explorerx4

My garage has 2 posts. The doors are 8 1/2 feet wide, so a single door would be close to 20 feet across.
I shot that from the 3rd bay.

murphydog

So we put my dad's Ghia on The Samba (a VW site) for sale. While I did not expect hundreds of emails I was hoping for a few. So far crickets.
Any feedback on my ad from the group would be appreciated!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1918143

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

Sad garage picture. Needs to be fixed.

How do you get out of the car?

oldfarmer50

murphydog said:

So we put my dad's Ghia on The Samba (a VW site) for sale. While I did not expect hundreds of emails I was hoping for a few. So far crickets.
Any feedback on my ad from the group would be appreciated!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1918143

Can't comment on the price as I don't know valuations. Ad is spot on. If that site provides no leads have you considered a collector/antique site like Hagarty?

explorerx4

@oldfarmer50, It's my wife's car, so I don't know how you get out. Open the door? The post is not as close as it looks in the picture.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

explorerx4 said:

Sad garage picture. Needs to be fixed.

How do you get out of the car?

Power mower gets the larger space!

stever

murphydog said:

Any feedback on my ad from the group would be appreciated

I think your ad is fine too, just a bit of a limited buyer's pool for this vehicle. There's a EV Karman Ghia conversion here that's been on the market for almost two years that I know of, hanging out for the one "right" guy.

Yours is the one that has hydraulics? Maybe lift it up to "road" height for the pics?

stickguy

didn't realize you had 3 bays. That would require a post for sure. Just gotta pad them well and be careful.

snakeweasel

stickguy said:

Wheeler dealers. And yes, needs both registrations and full boat inspection.

I would hate to do a boarding of one of those.

Mr_Shiftright

murphydog said:

So we put my dad's Ghia on The Samba (a VW site) for sale. While I did not expect hundreds of emails I was hoping for a few. So far crickets.
Any feedback on my ad from the group would be appreciated!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1918143

Not a good car for The Samba IMO. I would try www.cars-on-line.com and tag it as "VW" as well as "Street Rod" and "Custom".

Pricing would be about $20K for a stock and correct #2 Ghia convertible, so your pricing might be ambitious. Best Ghia converts in the world are maybe $35K