By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I have no idea myself...
Personally, I don't think this is that big of a deal in the first place. I have yet to hear from EVEN ONE customer about this.
I guess that to you, anyway, the double wishbones are more important than interior space and crash test ratings?
BMW uses struts too and I think we would all agree that these will out handle a Civic.
As far as cost cutting...why not? as a shareholder in Honda I'm looking at that bottom line too.
Probably not. But you know why this is important? Because Honda kept on bragging in the early to mid nineties about what great handlers Hondas and Acuras were because of this "race inspired double wishbone suspension". Now we hear that it was not all that important after all. I have trouble swallowing that.
I'm just saying that my customers don't seem to care one way or the other. The car either handles well or it does not.
It just bothers me when someone jumps to the conclusion that the change was simply a cost cutting decision.
And I think it's great that Honda's engineers were able to make the change without affecting the handling of the car.
By the way, yes the BMW has struts but so does the Dodge Neon, Chevy Cavalier and the Ford Taurus. Also, you should note their resale value on the open market. You build a car cheaply and that's what happens. Next time a customer comes in isellhondas, tell them you are a Honda share holder and I bet they look for another salesman that isn't!
I drove an Accord with the double wishbone suspension for 13 years. I now drive a vehicle with front struts. Hasn't made a bit of difference to me. And I am the target consumer, not the gearheads who would notice if they changed a bolt on the underside of the oil drain pan.
As to equating resale value with McPherson struts, puhleeeze.
And finally, again lugwrench, et al. If you feel Honda has sold you out and now builds cheap vehicles----buy something else. Stop whining about it, it has happened. They aren't going back to your beloved double wishbones.
Wow! I better call my broker and sell it!
I guess as a customer I would trust a salesperson who believes in his product enough to invest in the company that makes it.
What am I missing here...?
Most of us did the same thing.
I never heard a customer say " We better not shop at Sears!...The employees are shareholders!"
And...I've never been able to do a good job of selling a product I don't believe in. As an example, I am no fan of anything Volkswagen and I'll try to steer my used car buyers away from them. If they are determined to buy one anyway, I'll be happy to write up the sale!
"The ride is less supple than the previous model, and the road noise is pronounced." Conclusion---Struts don't give you a great ride like the double wishbone". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out guys!
isellhondas---you would still sell a VW for the all mighty buck? Sears--no wonder they are no longer the number #1 retailer in the USA! To many of the employees invested in the company!!!
That is a joke by the way!!!
>latest Consumer Reports regarding the new Civic.
>"The ride is less supple than the previous
>model, and the road noise is pronounced."
>Conclusion---Struts don't give you a great ride
>like the double wishbone". It doesn't take a
>rocket scientist to figure this out guys!
In making that statement concerning ride and road noise did CR address these questions: Same tires? Same tire size? Same wheel size? Same air pressure? Same loading? Same type of suspension bushings (rubber vs urethane)? Same road surface? Amount of sound insulation on car? Same Civic model (comparing EX to EX, LX to LX, etc.)? Was an older generation Civic with wishbone suspension there for direct comparison or was CR going off of memory? etc., etc., etc..... My point is I can take any of those variables above and apply them to the same identical car and alter ride quality and road noise dramatically.
I'm not a rocket scientist either, just an engineer. Take what CR says with a grain of salt, there are just too many variables here, especially for something as subjective as ride quality.
Only way to find out if the strut suspension compares to the wishbone is to drive it yourself and see if it is acceptable. Some will say yes, some will say no.
Tires tested are OEM which is the standard issue on Honda Civics. I suppose you could put a old set of Firestone 500's on a Lexus LS 430 and get a lousy ride. I think your hypothesis is flawed with subjective reasoning.
In conclusion, I think you are another one of the Honda fanatics that believes Honda can do no wrong. Well, they cheapened up the vehicle so what do you expect? A ride not comparable to the old double wishbone.
>Reports utilizes engineers in all their testing.
>They keep extensive records on all their tests
>and have thousands of customer responses to the
>annual auto survey that they utilize. As any
>engineer (even train) realizes, they take the
>some of all the surveys, tests, road tests, and
>extensive documentation to formulate their
>conclusions
First let me clear this up: I'm a licensed professional engineer and not a train operator. Second, I fully understand how CR puts together their data, as well as the use of empirical test data. They put together valuble information with this data, especially when it is something that is clearly definable, such as component failures, gas mileage, etc. However, I also understand that when putting together results/conclusions on a subject that is 100% subjective, (and yes, ride quality is 100% subjective) you have to assume that the results drawn are NOT conclusive. One person's good ride quality is another person's harsh ride quality versus another one's soft ride quality.
>Tires tested are OEM which is the standard issue
>on Honda Civics. I suppose you could put a old
>set of Firestone 500's on a Lexus LS 430 and get
>a lousy ride. I think your hypothesis is flawed
>with subjective reasoning.
My reasoning is NOT flawed, however yours clearly is. I do thank you for reinforcing my point that lousy tires CAN influence ride quality. That's my whole point. In your assertions that strut suspensions have a inferior ride quality compared to double wishbone you are placing blame only on the suspension type. There are DOZENS of other components in a vehicle suspension that influence ride quality. Until you remove all other variables, i.e. make everything else identical, blaming the strut suspension alone carries as much weight as saying that a car's color has an impact on it's ride quality.
>In conclusion, I think you are another one of
>the Honda fanatics that believes Honda can do no
>wrong.
I conclude that you are another Honda basher. Does that statement really prove anything thing? No. Once again, rhetoric replaces facts and common sense.
No, I am not a Honda fanatic, and have had numerous brands of vehicles in my lifetime. I do presently own 2 Honda vehicles, but I buy the best overall vehicle for my needs, whoever makes it. I would be making the same arguments if it were a Toyota, VW, GM, or whatever we are talking about.
>Well, they cheapened up the vehicle so
>what do you expect? A ride not comparable to the
>old double wishbone.
Do you have any facts (besides the rhetoric you continue to spout) that Honda cheapened up the vehicles? What are the cost savings per vehicle on using a strut suspension versus using a double wishbone suspension? Let's suppose they did save $20 per vehicle, but they were able to improve other aspects such as crash safety, increased interior room, etc. Does that still make a "cheapened vehicle"? I don't know that as a fact one way or the other, and my guess is neither do you.
Look, as far as I'm concerned the new Civic may have an inferior ride quality compared to the last generation of Civics. I really could care less as they are not vehicles that I consider for my personal needs. However, equating struts with inferior ride quality and cheapening a vehicle is wrong. There are PLENTY of vehicles on the market that have a good ride quality and are not cheap that use a strut suspension. Yes, the new Civic has a strut suspension, and yes, the ride quality of the new Civic may have suffered in some people's opinions. However, placing blame solely on the struts is wrong, and equating that to cheapening a vehicle is wrong as well. Period.
From my vantage point, 99 out of 100 people could care less about wishbones vs. struts! I never hear about this.
People do want, however five star safety ratings and increased interior space. They also want a car that rides and handles well.
And that is exactly what they get!
Well it seems that Honda changes opinions like the wind changes direction. That's how we humans are. What we cherish today, we despise tomorrow.
Now Honda is tauting its switch to McPherson struts as the right thing to do..LOL.
Quite honestly I have owned 6 Honda Accords (1989-1996) and 2 Acuras (1995-2000) and after having driven all these cars with *superior* double wishbones and now driving a vehicle with *inferior* McPhersons, I just don't see the difference and all the hoopla surrounding Double Wishbones.
I am sure Double Wishbones are great in the race track, but real life everyday driving, come on!
YES SIRE!!!!, YES SIRE!!!!!!
Are you a Boot Camp Sargeant???
Hey, I guess if someone thinks this change is so horrible, they can go buy something else.
Like an Impala or something...
Wow--McPhearson Struts---I just will have to go out and buy a new Civic or Focus--what a selling point! At 80K, I can go to Sears and have them install the replacement struts and get a wheel alignment to boot!
You got to love those McPhearson Struts guys!
Too bad Honda won't Import the Type-R Accord sedan.
Honda NA......never ending blandness and boredom....
I guess grandma's Impala is a whole lot more exciting!
And lugwrench...you forgot to mention BMW and a few others.
I bet deep down inside you would love to sell BMW's over Honda Accords ? Is this BMW a Freudian slip isellhondas?
Other "great" cars that utilize struts are the Chevy Cavalier, the Ford Contour, and the infamous Yugo!
Also, I like that statement for years Honda highlighted their double wishbone suspension as a selling point. Various posters say that people don't care about good handling? It must be true then, because the new Civic doesn't handle as well as the old "double wishbone" Civic and people don't care?
The next thing Honda posters will start saying are 12 inch wheels give a better ride than 16 inch wheels on the new 2003 Accord!
The change has been made, move on. Obviously Honda isn't for you anymore, be an adult and deal with it instead of whining about it.
Car and Driver didn't seem to have a problem with the MacPherson (yep that's how it is spelled, even I had it wrong) set-up on the RSX. They said the RSX was a vast improvement over the Integra and named it one of their 10 best. So you know more than them?
Quit whining and move to another manufacturer since Honda has let you down. Geesh, this doesn't take too many gray cells to figure out or does it? Or are you a masochist?
You are speculating about a design change we have no solid reason to believe will take place in a car that will not be introduced for months.
There is already a thread to discuss the 2003 Accord. Perhaps your bad attitudes and magical crystal balls will be of more relevance there.
twist
Everyone has a right to share their opinion. carguy62---I read in Consumer Reports Auto issue that the new Civic didn't handle as well as the old. I think that was what MikeGold was referring to.
Lets get back to talking about the Honda Accord.
Anselmo1 understood right away that Civic handling comparison between the new and old was indicated from the April auto issue from Consumer Reports.
Had to vent and promise I will never bring up the Civic suspension again in a Honda forum. Sadly, it would really be nice if posts from carguy were left blank.
That's the beauty of this forum, everyone can express an opinion. Sorry you don't like it. I don't like your posts but I don't go crazy over them. Life is too short.
I think it's pretty simple. You don't like Honda's suspension, buy something else. No rocket science there that I can see. You are complaining about something that is a fait accompli, I would think you have better things to do, but I guess I am wrong.
And I know other automakers use a version of the double wishbone, so I would think if that system is important to you (no problem with that) that's what you'd be looking at, but again I guess I am wrong. You'd rather complain that the Civic doesn't have it. Like I said, life is too short.
last, this is just fawked up. that's all i can say.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
I have a friend that is a salesman at a Porsche dealership. (No Audi included). He makes over 100 grand a year plus perks. Not bad for a guy that is only 28 years old!
Completely different from what I expected!
FWIW, one salesperson I spoke with claimed to have seen pictures of the '03 Accord. And she didn't exactly gush over it. She said simply that it looks better than the Camry (wouldn't take much) and that people will accept it! Hmmm...
isellhondas--commission on an Accord vs. BMW? You can make a heck of a lot more selling BMW's!
Is it that luxury car salesperson make more on commission?
Just curious.
I'm happy. I work for great people, family owned. They treat me very well and the store is six minutes from my home.
I doubt very much if I would make more selling BMW's. Besides, I'm done wearing a suit and tie to work. Did that too many years.
My point is, until you have experienced the quality of other makes to compare, you don't know how great you have it. You don't need extended warranties if you:
a) buy Honda OR
b) lease for the term of the warranty