I guess I'm not completely understanding this issue. I just bought an '02 EX-V6 Coupe a month ago. While at the dealer, I was looking at a Japanese-built EX-L 5-sp sedan, because I have read about this issue here before. To my eye anyway, I didn't see any differences. I even asked my salesman, who knew I wanted a Coupe, knew I wanted the V-6, and so knew I wasn't getting a car from Japan. He told me there wasn't a difference. I don't see what he had to gain by lying, and he's been selling the cars for at least a couple of years.
When did the US-built cars become inferior, exactly? Is this a problem that has crept up in the more recent Accords? Or has it always been there? And, I'm presuming that all Accords, be they Japanese or American in origin, are built using the same parts specifications, albeit different suppliers. How can the quality of the American cars be lower if the parts meet the same specifications? If they meet the same specifications, then they must go together the same way. If the American parts don't meet spec, then Honda has a bigger issue they're not acknowledging or rectifying, than poor assembly.
I'm not saying that there won't be the occasional defective part or poor fit. Maybe that is what it comes down to - numbers. The vast majority of Accords sold in this country are US-built cars. Therefore, it stands to reason that there will be more US-built cars with defects, simply because there are more of them. That doesn't necessarily mean that their inherent quality is lower.
1. He's a salesman. 2. You said he knew you were going to get an American-built Accord. Did you expect him to tell you the American ones were inferior? Next time when/if you buy a Japanese-built one, see what his tune is.
Why are US-built cars inferior? It all boils down to workers' attitude. The Japanese take pride in their work. Look at the crap put out by the Big Three. You don't think a company like GM has the manufacturing resources equal to the Japanese? But it's the workers on the front line that make all the difference. You can put in all the QC you want, but if the product is consistently lousy, what are going to do? Stop the production line? Result is QC standards are not enforced as strictly as they should be. And we all know, if the labour law (never mind unions), how difficult it is to fire a substandard worker.
I own a Honda Accord EXV6 coupe, 2000 year, that was made in Ohio. It's been a excellent cars. It has a few minor squeaks and tiny rattles. No big deal really. Overall, i've only been to the dealer for 2 problems, both quality problems. Not bad I would say. As for my bumpers, they both are installed on the car perfectly correct.
Maybe there should be topic started regarding this. This could be really interesting. With manufactures building new plants in countries like Mexico and England I wouldnt be surprised if quality will suffer. Wont this make that manufacturers reputation go down?? I know a car is engineered but the people who put the car together have a big influence on how that car will turn out. Or can companies like toyota and honda keep that tight of quality control in plants thousands of miles away.
I read where the quality control in Honda's Ohio plant that manufacturers Accords won the Silver Achievement Award in automobile manufacturing in North America. By the way, the Toyota plant in Kentucky also won the same award. The plant that won the Gold Achievement Award was the Corolla plant in Canada which was the best manufacturing facility in North America.
Now, I would love to see how these three plants stack up to the Japanese manufacturing plants that produce the same name plates. My money would be on the Japanese plants since their workers seem to take pride in what they manufacture.
I read about a year ago about the "state of the art" Chrysler plant in Missouri that has the latest technology in auto manufacturing. Unfortunately, what is produced in that plant is a lot of cars with quality control problems. Look at the fit and finish on any Chrysler and you will see what I mean.
I have also seen the gaps mentioned which are a characteristic mainly on 4 DOOR ACCORDS.
Sort of off-topic, but my old Dodge was built in Mexico at Lago Alberto plant. Very few problems in 100K miles. I would be pleased to buy a Mexican Dodge.
The assumption of poor quality I sometimes see expressed about Mexican plants is puzzling to me. The mechanics who fix the cars under warranty are quite often hispanic. That doesn't seem to bother anyone.
Sometimes I read of people who prefer German Volkswagens over Mexican VWs but I understand the German plants are mostly populated with Turkish migrants. Nothing wrong with that, but certainly a third world work force.
I suspect the differences between a plant with 'acceptable' quality and 'excellent' quality are based on a number of fairly subtle and hard to measure things, rather than stereotypes about Japanese workers 'caring' about the cars and North American workers 'not caring' about the cars.
Now if I was in Seattle-I would sniff around Honda dealerships till till I found isellhondas and then after a long haggling session say-Yeah but I want a Japan built w/o MXV4's.
By accident I got a J built-fit and finish are superb-hope I get lucky for my next one.
I have a "1" Accord 2-door and have no problems with it at 15k. I can not see any differences in gaps or any paint blemishes whatsoever. I am very anal in detailing my car and do it often and haven't had any better or worse experiences with paint chips. I had an American built Dodge that I sold with only 7000 miles on it after its 14th trip to the dealership for major repairs. After that, I will never buy another American (Big 3)vehicle. I have had 3 Fords, a Dodge, and 4 foreign vehicles to back up my statement.
I will definitely only look for a new Accord with the vin number that begins with the letter J. No ifs ands or buts with my decision.
Japanese built Accords are far superior to the Accords built in the USA. Just look at the paint for starters and that should convince you. An oil based paint is far superior to the water based EPA mandated paint as used in Ohio.
paulo3, I have read in the past that most of the paints that car manufacturer's use are manufactured by only a few companies, such as BASF. Yes, that is right, Honda does not go out and manufacture their own paint. It is purchased from someone else and applied on the product.
I think Honda paint overall is a little lower quality than Toyota, BMW, or Mercedes uses. But the quality difference is probabaly due to less coats being applied to the Honda's. As I said before I have a 2000 Accord Coupe(made in USA) in silver metallic with 26K miles and the paint is holding up well. I have very few stone chips and the paint still shines like new.
On post 1090 I tried to explain the paint issue but some of the posters still think that japanese paint is superior. You are right only a few companies make paint for the auto industry throughout the world and they are pretty much the same.
inkie, let people believe what they believe. You say it once, you can say it twice, but eventually you have to just let it go and let them believe what they believe, even though it may be false.
Someone mentioned one reason he prefers Japanese Hondas are the Japanese workers. I wanted to point out that the Japanese economy has been in the dumps for going on its second decade. Things aren't good over there, it's definitely effecting the people. How that effects the quality of the vehicles produced by those people is debatable.
My current Honda was built in Japan. Given the choice I would by one from Japan. That choice is less and less every year.
How much does it cost to replace these airbags, who else has gone thru this experience. Please share your stories, and remember to protect yourself. These things are expensive!
The economy hasn't been great in the USA either with all the down sizing in corporations. The "hayseeds" in Ohio that manufacture Hondas haven't been at it only for 20 years. The Japanese have been making Hondas for over 50 years. The only reason Hondas are made in the USA is to get around the auto tariffs imposed by the USA against Japanese auto imports.
The USA Honda worker thinks of his job as a job. Japanese workers incorporate their jobs into their life styles and make it the center point of their lives.
I remeber reading an article that the cost of an average airbag is around 800+ installed. Doesn't insurance cover some of it? Here is something you may be interested in. I purchased a Disklok for my accord it covers the steering wheel so you can't drive it or steal the airbag. I am well satisfied with it. Its one of the better ones on the market. It was originally made for the english market but they sell in the us and canada now. Here is the web address: www.disklok.com. You can get the info and the canadian address.
I would agree that the Japanese have a different view than the US about jobs, but that is quickly changing. The Japanese have become more "westernized" then they were 50 years ago. The Japanese autoworker of today is different than those from 50 and even 20 years ago.
Regarding economies. The US economy has only been down for ~2 years, as I mentioned the Japanese economy is going on it's second decade of being down. People who thought they had jobs for life are losing them, how do you think that will effect their productivity? I can't imagine it is much different from the "hayseeds" you refer to in Ohio.
And yes you are right about the reasons Honda builds cars in the US, tariffs have been a part of the US practically since our independence, whether related to cars or whatever. I'm sure you are aware of how much the US economy depends on auto production and can understand why the government does what it does.
I don't think 20 years is an insignificant time with respect to building a product and gaining the experience necessary to do it well.
Honda's reputation was built through the '80s and '90s, roughly the timeframe that Honda has been manufacturing at least a portion of its products in the United States. I've no idea of the relative proportions from year to year of domestically manufactured versus imported Hondas, sold in the United States. But, it would seem to me that if there was an actual, perceivable gap between the quality of domestically-produced Hondas and those imported from Japan, that Honda would not have been able to build its reputation into what it has today.
I won't debate that their is a difference (cultural or otherwise) in the mindset of American workers and Japanese workers. I'm sure the Honda workers in Ohio wouldn't appreciate being referred to as "hayseeds". People take pride in the product they help create. And with Honda plants, the UAW isn't there to create an atmosphere of entitlement.
I try and avoid issues regarding unions but I think you hit on one of the reasons domestic produced Hondas run circles (IMO) around the real domestics.
And to make two things clear, I did not refer to the Ohio workers in a negative manner, I was quoting someone else. And I do realize that there were no automobiles in 1776.
Man, why is everyone so spooked about even the tinniest possibilty of maybe offending someone,even unintentionally? Maybe we should all just shut up, log off and go to bed!
Honda's main reason for building a plant in Ohio was for two reasons. The first was getting around the US tariffs and the second was getting around the European import regulations. Japan is limited greatly on what it can export directly to Europe when it comes to automobiles. Daimler/Benz, Citroen, Renault, Fiat, BMW and Porsche/Audi don't want Japanese imports that compete with their products manufactured. Japan "back doored" Europe by producing the Accord in the USA which has a more favorable export arrangement with the European Common Market countries.
When Japan bought out the Sterling plant in England back in the late 1980's, it was for the same reason. Guess what guys, the Honda plant in England is going to be building the new Civic SI and exporting them to Europe and the United States. Nothing like those British built cars with a history of electrical and paint problems. Hope Honda limits each British factory working to only one pint of ale at lunch time.
I've only read the first and last page of this forum - so I apologize if I am simply reiterating what others have said. But, I bought one of the original "new" Accords in early 1998 and have had a very good experience so far! My 4-door 4-cylinder LX has almost 85,000 miles and has had rarely a problem. Early on, one air vent broke and was replaced by the dealer. Also, I have had some problems with the paint on the front air dam. Some deep rock chips caused a one square inch portion of paint to flake off. The dealer refused to fix this problem. Also, I have noticed sqeeks in the interior. The car has always made noise where the dash board and door panels come together. Other than those relatively minor problems, the car has held up amazingly well. It runs very well, the steering is still very tight and aligned and the suspension is just now showing some slight softening. It doesn't use a drop of oil and still gets great gas mileage. Other than the flaked rock chip, the paint still looks perfect. Furthermore, I just bought a brand new "built like a rock" Chevy Tahoe and the workmanship between it and my Honda can't compare. Everything about the Honda is better including: the seats (both quality and comfort/support), the quality of the plastic, the quality of the cloth, the instrument positions, cruise control operation, the sterio, the floor mats, and the feel of the door handles and various latches. You would be hard pressed to convince me that Honda doesn't make a good product that is very much worth the money (mine was only $17,800 brand new). (On the other hand, my parents bought a new Camry at the same time I bought my Honda - the Camry has also weathered the years very well and, other than the paint, the Camry was probably better built in the beginning).
I have meticulously maintained my 1995 Honda Accord EX since I bought it brand new in January of 1995. My car has been washed each week in the summer and waxed every other month with Zaino. In the winter time, I have my car hand car washed once a week at a detailers shop. He always made sure the under carriage was washed and around each tire well.
Last week I noticed rust above the rear driver's side wheel well where the plastic bumper and the metal meet at the seam. Took it to an award winning body shop in the area and the collision shop writer informed me that this was a common problem on 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997 Honda Accords. He informed me that it was an obvious design flaw on Honda's part due to an inner lip that collects water. He also told me it was a problem on earlier Accords as well. My estimate to get one side fixed and painted was $365.00 with the car being in the shop three days.
This is the first new Honda I owned and it looks as if it will be my last. VW has a 10 year 100K rust through warranty so it looks as if the Passat will be my next car. My question is, "do you think I should invest $365.00 to have my Accord fixed? My car has only 52K on it.
I've been wrestling with this as well. My '94 has started to exhibit the first signs of rust along that very section. I'll say that every single Honda I see that's rusted, that's where it is. It's definitely a design thing. Too bad, too, because the rest of my car has held up extremely well.
If a $365 is your biggest and maybe only problem with this vehicle-wow that's fantastic. You said you had it washed under neath. Used to live in Mpls and most of those people who did suspension washing used recycled water for this purpose. When I saw it coming out very dark in color as it was being sprayed on my undercarriage, I asked if it was recycled water and yes the guy said-"How do you get the salt out"-We filter it out.
Have a 97 and always clean it myself making certain to really clean that area. The price quoted is very good if they actually grind off the loose rust, kill off the remaining, seal it and then paint it to match. Sounds like a winner if they do a quality job.
Make your next car a ford or dc product-you will learn a lot about cars driving one of those.
I have a 2001 Accord LX with side airbags that I bought new a year ago. I've never had a problem with the side airbag light until now. It comes on for long periods and flickers sometimes when nothing is in the seat. I called my local Honda dealer and talked to the service manager and he told me there is nothing they can do about it. They have a service bulletin stating the light can come on anytime or all the time. He said there is nothing that can be done. In the past the light has worked as advertised, meaning it only came on when someone was sitting in the seat and moved out of proper position for the side airbag, as stated in the owner's manual. Now the Honda dealer tells me that the light can just come on whenever, and I should just ignore it. Gang this is not normal; it is a defect in design and Honda needs to come up with a fix. Comments Please on Honda's "Quality".
VW has always had an excellent paint job on all the cars they manufacture and back it up with the best warranty on rust in the business.
I also live in the "rust belt" of the northeast. Hondas are known to rust above the back wheels on Accords and Civics. Usually right after the rust through warranty is over.
Go to any collison shop and ask what they repair on 1994-1997 Honda Accords that were not in accidents. #1 answer is the rust above the rear wheel wells were the plastic bumper meets the sheet metal. I also suggest you start looking around at 1994-1995 Honda Accord for starters. If you live in an area where they salt the roads heavy, you will notice the rust on those models.
The rear passenger door makes a slight squeaking noise over bumps that is very annoying in an otherwise quiet car. I think it is coming from where the foam stripping at the top of the door (over the window) meets the body of the car.
I've tried lubricating the foam stripping with silicone spray but that does not seem to help. Is there any way I can have the door adjusted to shut tighter? I'm going to bring it back to the dealer, but I'm afriad I'll get the "there's nothing we can do" so I figured I'd ask here first.
Any insight would be great. Anybody else experience the noise?
Live in WI and a lot of accords have the rust problem on the rear fender where the fender and bumper meet just behind the wheel. The guy who sold me the car told me to always wash this area out carefully because they rust like hell.
Apparently the salt gets in between the metal and plastic bit and does a tune on the paint. Yeah Honda's rust-got rid of my last one when I could see through the floor board-it is still going with over 300K on it-the guy has a couple of layers of card board over the hole.
mikegold, Live in the NE and there are even plenty of older Accords, last generation I mean, I don't see what you speak of. Do I have to go and ask a body shop? Can't I just look around, boss?
I don't think you are looking to hard. The sunglasses have to come off max. Read other posts here---they verify what I am saying. Otherwise, stop by a body shop and ask. Where I live, 1994, 1995, and 1996 Accords abound with the problem. All in the same area. Look at the rear drivers side above the rear wheel.
Mike Gold is absolutely correct. I also live in the northeast and you see the rust above the rear tire wells. Noticed that it usually starts on the drivers side first. There is a ledge that traps water and salt which causes this to happen.
I guess my question is if you have a 6th generation Accord, will it start rusting in the same place after the warranty is up?
When your 5 year rust through warranty is over, that is usually when the rust shows up. So if you have a 1996 Accord, you should see rust forming right about now.
Usually in areas of the country where rock salt is used on roads in the winter months. isellhondas---you won't see this problem in the area that you live in. Northeast, Midwest and Rocky Mountain states where there is a lot of snow.
Definitely a Honda engineer design flaw that I hope is corrected on the 6th generation Accords.
The wheel wells do rust on Honda Accords. My best friend had the rust on his 94 just after the warranty expired. He called Honda Main office and they paid for the repair. He decided to trade the car on a new Honda. I was with him when he went to make the deal. When the used car manager appraised his trade the first place he inspected was the area just above the rear wheel wells. He then asked my friend if he had the rust fixed because he stated they all rust in that place.
My friend's 1996 Honda Accord has a huge rust hole on the rear driver's side above the rear wheel. Honda does have a problem in that area along with its V-6 transmissions. Sorry, isellhondas, I will tell it like it is cause it happened to me twice. As far as my friend's rust problem, that happens like clockwork also.
Even though your Accord is long gone and you bought a different kind of car, you hang around, telling the same old story ad nauseum.
It's almost like you look for a fresh audiance to tell your story to. Over and over and over....
As far as the rust issue is concerned, I haven't said anything because I have no experience with this.
I've spent my entire life in California and Western Washington. They don't salt the roads here so cars don't rust. It does rain all of the time however. I've never seen the rear wheel rust you're talking about but don't doubt it happens. I see lots of cars from back east with terrible rust.
We don't buy lease return cars from the salt belt area of any make or model.
Comments
When did the US-built cars become inferior, exactly? Is this a problem that has crept up in the more recent Accords? Or has it always been there? And, I'm presuming that all Accords, be they Japanese or American in origin, are built using the same parts specifications, albeit different suppliers. How can the quality of the American cars be lower if the parts meet the same specifications? If they meet the same specifications, then they must go together the same way. If the American parts don't meet spec, then Honda has a bigger issue they're not acknowledging or rectifying, than poor assembly.
I'm not saying that there won't be the occasional defective part or poor fit. Maybe that is what it comes down to - numbers. The vast majority of Accords sold in this country are US-built cars. Therefore, it stands to reason that there will be more US-built cars with defects, simply because there are more of them. That doesn't necessarily mean that their inherent quality is lower.
2. You said he knew you were going to get an American-built Accord. Did you expect him to tell you the American ones were inferior? Next time when/if you buy a Japanese-built one, see what his tune is.
Why are US-built cars inferior? It all boils down to workers' attitude. The Japanese take pride in their work. Look at the crap put out by the Big Three. You don't think a company like GM has the manufacturing resources equal to the Japanese? But it's the workers on the front line that make all the difference. You can put in all the QC you want, but if the product is consistently lousy, what are going to do? Stop the production line? Result is QC standards are not enforced as strictly as they should be. And we all know, if the labour law (never mind unions), how difficult it is to fire a substandard worker.
It has a few minor squeaks and tiny rattles. No big deal really. Overall, i've only been to the dealer for 2 problems, both quality problems. Not bad I would say. As for my bumpers, they both are installed on the car perfectly correct.
Now, I would love to see how these three plants stack up to the Japanese manufacturing plants that produce the same name plates. My money would be on the Japanese plants since their workers seem to take pride in what they manufacture.
I read about a year ago about the "state of the art" Chrysler plant in Missouri that has the latest technology in auto manufacturing. Unfortunately, what is produced in that plant is a lot of cars with quality control problems. Look at the fit and finish on any Chrysler and you will see what I mean.
I have also seen the gaps mentioned which are a characteristic mainly on 4 DOOR ACCORDS.
The assumption of poor quality I sometimes see expressed about Mexican plants is puzzling to me. The mechanics who fix the cars under warranty are quite often hispanic. That doesn't seem to bother anyone.
Sometimes I read of people who prefer German Volkswagens over Mexican VWs but I understand the German plants are mostly populated with Turkish migrants. Nothing wrong with that, but certainly a third world work force.
I suspect the differences between a plant with 'acceptable' quality and 'excellent' quality are based on a number of fairly subtle and hard to measure things, rather than stereotypes about Japanese workers 'caring' about the cars and North American workers 'not caring' about the cars.
By accident I got a J built-fit and finish are superb-hope I get lucky for my next one.
Japanese built Accords are far superior to the Accords built in the USA. Just look at the paint for starters and that should convince you. An oil based paint is far superior to the water based EPA mandated paint as used in Ohio.
As I walk our used car lot, all of the paint seems to hold up the same, at least to me anyway.
I can't tell the difference but then, maybe I don't see as well as others do.
I think Honda paint overall is a little lower quality than Toyota, BMW, or Mercedes uses. But the quality difference is probabaly due to less coats being applied to the Honda's. As I said before I have a 2000 Accord Coupe(made in USA) in silver metallic with 26K miles and the paint is holding up well. I have very few stone chips and the paint still shines like new.
My current Honda was built in Japan. Given the choice I would by one from Japan. That choice is less and less every year.
The USA Honda worker thinks of his job as a job. Japanese workers incorporate their jobs into their life styles and make it the center point of their lives.
Regarding economies. The US economy has only been down for ~2 years, as I mentioned the Japanese economy is going on it's second decade of being down. People who thought they had jobs for life are losing them, how do you think that will effect their productivity? I can't imagine it is much different from the "hayseeds" you refer to in Ohio.
And yes you are right about the reasons Honda builds cars in the US, tariffs have been a part of the US practically since our independence, whether related to cars or whatever. I'm sure you are aware of how much the US economy depends on auto production and can understand why the government does what it does.
Honda's reputation was built through the '80s and '90s, roughly the timeframe that Honda has been manufacturing at least a portion of its products in the United States. I've no idea of the relative proportions from year to year of domestically manufactured versus imported Hondas, sold in the United States. But, it would seem to me that if there was an actual, perceivable gap between the quality of domestically-produced Hondas and those imported from Japan, that Honda would not have been able to build its reputation into what it has today.
I won't debate that their is a difference (cultural or otherwise) in the mindset of American workers and Japanese workers. I'm sure the Honda workers in Ohio wouldn't appreciate being referred to as "hayseeds". People take pride in the product they help create. And with Honda plants, the UAW isn't there to create an atmosphere of entitlement.
And to make two things clear, I did not refer to the Ohio workers in a negative manner, I was quoting someone else. And I do realize that there were no automobiles in 1776.
When Japan bought out the Sterling plant in England back in the late 1980's, it was for the same reason. Guess what guys, the Honda plant in England is going to be building the new Civic SI and exporting them to Europe and the United States. Nothing like those British built cars with a history of electrical and paint problems. Hope Honda limits each British factory working to only one pint of ale at lunch time.
Last week I noticed rust above the rear driver's side wheel well where the plastic bumper and the metal meet at the seam. Took it to an award winning body shop in the area and the collision shop writer informed me that this was a common problem on 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997 Honda Accords. He informed me that it was an obvious design flaw on Honda's part due to an inner lip that collects water. He also told me it was a problem on earlier Accords as well. My estimate to get one side fixed and painted was $365.00 with the car being in the shop three days.
This is the first new Honda I owned and it looks as if it will be my last. VW has a 10 year 100K rust through warranty so it looks as if the Passat will be my next car. My question is, "do you think I should invest $365.00 to have my Accord fixed? My car has only 52K on it.
Have a 97 and always clean it myself making certain to really clean that area. The price quoted is very good if they actually grind off the loose rust, kill off the remaining, seal it and then paint it to match. Sounds like a winner if they do a quality job.
Make your next car a ford or dc product-you will learn a lot about cars driving one of those.
Here on the west coast, I don't see any rust.
bd21...I think I heard something about a service bulletin on the side airbag light.
I also live in the "rust belt" of the northeast. Hondas are known to rust above the back wheels on Accords and Civics. Usually right after the rust through warranty is over.
I've tried lubricating the foam stripping with silicone spray but that does not seem to help. Is there any way I can have the door adjusted to shut tighter? I'm going to bring it back to the dealer, but I'm afriad I'll get the "there's nothing we can do" so I figured I'd ask here first.
Any insight would be great. Anybody else experience the noise?
Apparently the salt gets in between the metal and plastic bit and does a tune on the paint. Yeah Honda's rust-got rid of my last one when I could see through the floor board-it is still going with over 300K on it-the guy has a couple of layers of card board over the hole.
I guess my question is if you have a 6th generation Accord, will it start rusting in the same place after the warranty is up?
Usually in areas of the country where rock salt is used on roads in the winter months. isellhondas---you won't see this problem in the area that you live in. Northeast, Midwest and Rocky Mountain states where there is a lot of snow.
Definitely a Honda engineer design flaw that I hope is corrected on the 6th generation Accords.
ah well even honda can improve-why so many years to do it though. At least it ain't their engines or trannies.
Does Honda galvanize its steel before it is painted?
Honda needs to address this at their manufacturing facility in Ohio.
It's almost like you look for a fresh audiance to tell your story to. Over and over and over....
As far as the rust issue is concerned, I haven't said anything because I have no experience with this.
I've spent my entire life in California and Western Washington. They don't salt the roads here so cars don't rust. It does rain all of the time however. I've never seen the rear wheel rust you're talking about but don't doubt it happens. I see lots of cars from back east with terrible rust.
We don't buy lease return cars from the salt belt area of any make or model.
Hopefully the 1998 model change fixed this.