You hit the nail right on the head with your price... that is the exact deal that I got on my 2004 EX-V6 W/Nav last month... $26,300.... here in Raleigh, NC. That price also included the mudflaps and the sunroof visor. Just to let you know that it can be done at that price.
There was a time many years ago that I was a lousy math student. No more! Anyway, I arrived at that price because it's essentially the same relative price I paid for my new, EX-L 4 cyl. no navigation. I paid $22.7 (including transportation) plus taxes and fees ($45 doc fee). It came to $24,876 out the door. There was no trade-in nor any financing. I think my deal was about $250 over invoice. Of course, the 2004 car was probably on the lot only a few days, so the dealer made all of the approximately $490, 2% holdback (if my math is still working right, the dealer made between $700 and $750, total). This seems to be a generally favorable deal--especially in the city of San Francisco where everything is expensive. Glad you were able to buy a superb car at a very competitive price!.......Richard
I don't think Bond paid 300 under invoice on a 2004 EX with leather and Nav. That is almost impossible this time of year. Its far more likely he has a manual transmission, which is -750 to invoice, and he thus paid 3 or 4 hundred over invoice. Sorry Bond -- you still got a great deal, just not an impossible deal.
Another error I've seen people make -- if your in California or NY, the dealers can only sell you a PZEV vehicle, which adds 100 or so to the invoice. So don't quote your invoice price to people who aren't from Cal or NY.
bond: We bought our Accord at Gwinnett Place Honda in Atlanta. They sell lots of Hondas. Third largest dealer in the country.
It's possible to get under invoice on an 04 if you know what you are doing and are willing to walk if you don't get the deal you want. We paid $22,800 for the car along including fog lights, decklid spoiler, splash guards, and fender trim. That works out to about $21,900 for the car if you use wholesale prices on the accessories. Not sure what the exact invoice on the car is but I think we were pretty close, if not under.
I said "If you must have an advertising or document or property tax or any other fee you need to include these in your price quote - do not try to add these in after we have set the price" In other words - if the dealership "must" charge a $350 advertising fee, $50 doc fee, $150 property tax fee disclose this at the time we are negotiating the price.
The dealership can "breakdown" the price of the car anyway they want - I could care less - just let me know up front.
Now really what is wrong with disclosing the fees that "must" be charged at the time the selling price is being negotiated?
We just picked up our Silver 2004 Accord EX-L 4DR auto with PZEV. We live in upstate NY. MSRP on the sticker was 24910, paid 22710 per the dealership and invoice is about 22460 per the web site carsdirect.com. So I think we got 2200 off the list price and about $250 above invoice. I say think because a trade-in was involved. I went to about 5 dealerships and everyone gave me a different quote on the trade-in and a different quote on the new car. The only way I could balance the two numbers was to add then up. In this deal I got $3500 on the trace in. Not the best and not the worst.
I have a question for anyone who has the XM radio. How many channels did you get for the 3 month trail period. I was playing with it last night and all I get a about 6 or 7 channels. The salesman had no clue on how to use it because their classes for this new product (XM radio) is not until November. So he couldn't tell me anything.
Thanks, Richard. You are probably right on the money in that they stated $2000 under the correct invoice price for the EX V6 NAV Sedan. To try to get the "official" invoice figure, I looked at various auto web sites (no luck), then went to consumerreports.org to order their new car buying guide (for $12) just so I can be 100% sure what the invoice is--But no luck there either, they don't have reports for any 2004 Honda vehicle yet. This implies that they (like all others except ConsumerGuide) don't have the invoices for 04 models yet. Since a few of the invoices listed in ConsumerGuide are probably wrong, I'll be negotiating with a probable but not confirmed invoice in mind, and I'm just a bit uncomfortable doing that. If a dealer says the invoice is actually higher than what I think it is, I can't call his bluff on it. In light of this, maybe I should wait until the official invoices are known everywhere before I start the process. Any thoughts/advice? Thanks.
If you take the factory MSRP (no dealer add-ons) and subtract the $460 transportation (might be a slightly different amount in the East), then take 90% of that and add back the transportation, you'll be VERY close to the invoice price. At least that's what I believe with respect to EX Accords. It seems that many deals described on this web site are made at invoice plus $250 to $400. The dealer will probably make approximately $700 to $900 after the holdback is paid. I'm not certain of this--I have no relationship with any dealer--but I think it's a good guess as well as a fair price to pay this early in the model year for a popular car........Richard
Thanks for confirming I got a great deal. I did indeed get a 2004 Auto-4L with NAV for the price.
Actually the way it worked was that I went to a diff. dealer and test drove the car (03 model), like it but not the color. It was a Black with Tan interior, would have preferred a Black with Black or Gray. The sales guy then gave me all the schmooze and asked me what I am willing to pay. People usually make the mistake by spilling out what they are willing to pay, for that becomes the baseline for the dealer to work with. I asked them to give me their invoice and what price they are willing to sell car. Initially the sales guy resisted and insisted on my price but when he realized that I am not biting the bait he called his manager who gave me their invoice and told me they were willing to sell it for $100+ invoice, which was a great price, specially with the 2.9% APR on 03's. I made sure they saw the paperwork (invoice prices, quotes etc.) I was carrying with me. The price became my baseline to work down from. But then I was not too keen on the color so I started contacting other dealers by phone. I gave them my price, which was invoice of 03 and asked them to beat it. Also visited another dealer, for face to face contact makes a huge diff., they know that you are in it for real. Then it was just a matter of luck and timing I guess, one of the dealers accepted the price and drove over and signed the papers, no haggling at all, the best experience I have ever had. I also beat the Sep. 30 deadline for CA registration, when the cost of registering went up by 3 times. Man the lic. fees in CA are already steep and now they are just exorbitant, I hope this recall succeeds and whoever gets elected revokes the hike.
Some sites show Honda dealer holdback at 2% and others at 3% of MSRP. Does anyone know what the actual holdback percentage is on the 2004 Accord?......Richard
I just received the out-the-door price of $21,484 for this car with 2.9% financing. This price does not include my trade-in. Anybody out there think this is a good deal or should I shop around more?
1. According to my dealer, invoice on this car was $25,612... which made invoice plus destination equal to $26,072.
2. The $26,300 that I mentioned included invoice and destination, as well as the mudflaps and visor.
3. The voice command works very well and does not require voice training. However, you will have to learn the commands that it is designed to look for, and use the exact syntax required. It is a very nice system.
I am enjoying my car and have not had any of the 'problems' talked about in this website. I have it in silver with black leather, and have also added the fog lights and spoiler. I hope your sales transaction goes as smoothly as mine did.
You got a fantastic deal. Enjoy that puppy! Thanks for answering my question about the navigation on the other site page. I'm looking for the V6 Coupe with Navi in the Desert Mist color. A rare bird on the lots-may have to order the car. I like the Ivory interior and prefer a lighter color on the exterior. I'm sold on the Navi as I do travel a fair amount. Do you get many stations with the XM? Your pricing info is very helpful.
Congrats Bond, you did get a very nice price. I am probably going to end up paying $26,100 out the door pricing for the same car. And that is without PZEV on my end, which jacked up your invoice by 100 since you are in Cal. I think. My price is like 275 over invoice, with NJ fees of like 110 plus around $125 in doc fees plus taxes. Please note that Cars Direct seems to add the $460 destination fee in to its invoice price, so if you are paying that separately, a mental adjustment is necessary. Not that this impacts your getting a great deal Bond, but it does impact just how far below invoice you are, which is relevant so the rest of know what to aspire too.
AS far as my deal, NJ taxes are 6%. I have spent a lot of time on this, and 26,100 is the price I'm ending up with. I do have two dealers willing to do that, so there is some hope of further reduction. I'm quite happy with my price, although I have to hand it to you for getting a significantly better one. What is the Cal. tax rate?
Hello I sell Hondas. If you would be so kind as to listen to what I have to say. I am here because I love the product that I sell and I was doing more research on them when I found these boards and wanted to know customer opinions. If you are worried about price look at the markup in every other car out there, and look at your 5 year retained value. This is where you got over on the other guy. By getting a Honda in the first place. If Honda over priced their cars like every one else. Then we would have rebates too. What do you think when you hear an ad for an $8000 rebate. Honda does not do this so you don't have to worry about a 50% drop in value, when you drive over the curb. I have been selling cars for 1 year now and I did my research before I got in to the business it was about customer satisfaction and reliability. May of 02 I bought a EXT LTZ Trail Blazer for my wife within a week we had Major Problems with the thing. after 1 year I was $2000 up-side-down. not to bad if you think about it. But I paid Invoice and put $12,000 cash down what do you think now. By the way a pilot EX-L RES (rear entertainment) comparable vehicle MSRP is less than invoice on that Trail Blazer. so what do you think about Honda now? I'm not saying that you shouldn't get a discount but if you have a sales person that is nice and treats you the way you deserve to be treated(I treat people the way I would want my mother, wife or daughter treated better yet the way I want to be treated) and knows their product are you going up the road to save a dollar and buy from a place that won't give you your keys back. I don't know about you but service means alot to me. Do you go to the local food store and ask for a discount. Probably not but most places have 50% or more mark up and you get no real service out of them. I'm the person thats greets you with a smile and sits down to help you decide what you want and need in your next car then pulls up the car you want at a price you can afford. I go over the things you want to know about (by the way I have Never shown a vanity mirror) do an all around test drive highways, curves, rough roads and braking. As well as nicely ask for the sale with out pushing. and do a compleat delivery of a car by going over the car, the manuals, and making sure your car is clean before you leave. I call after to see if you have any questions. I have even gone out to a customers job to install floor mats in a civic(they have brackets that need to be put in). If you are treated bad then go for broke get all the discounts you can. But if you are treated right, I just ask that you be nice and see that price for what it really is a good value for a really good car.
thank you _____X_______ your Friendly Honda sales person
You initially said you came on the board to learn customer opinions, but your email seems designed to attack the be educated and get-the-best value approach that this board is all about. I think you will find the people on these boards happy to give you any feedback on any questions you might have, but if you want to attack us for trying to educate ourselves and negotiate the best deal then you don't belong here. Rest assured that 95% of the people on this particular forum already think Hondas are great deals. Why else would we be shopping for one? We don't need a lecture any more then we need window etching or the interior & rust protection package.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. Its not my intent to attack you for your first post here. All I would ask is that you go back and read it and think about it from our perspective.
You will be welcomed here if you treat these boards as an opportunity to learn our opinions, and if, in exchange, you answer questions that only a honda dealer can answer. If you insist on speachifying, you'll inevitably get into harsh and pointless debates with people.
You have got to be kidding me! It's the consumer's right to shop and get the best price available on products. The dealer has the right not to sell the product for what a consumer wants to pay. It's called supply and demand. My goal as well as many other consumers is to get the best deal for our money. When I'm buying a car that means I want to purchase it for a close to invoice or less as possible. The dealer/salesman control the final outcome. Me the consumer either accepts their price or walks. Yes I do a lot of walking, but in the end I usually get the deal I'm after. Some people walk into a dealership and trade in a good car at wholesale and pay sticker for their new cars, so in the end it all seems to work out. As for me, I don't care about how nice the salesmen is or how good the service department is, they are not factors in my decision. I would rather agree to a price on-line and pick the care up with as little interaction with the dealership as possible. I do all of the maintenance myself and my goal is to purchase a car and never set foot on the dealership's lot again. And when I buy my next car I'll do the same thing again and the dealership with the best price gets my dollars even if it's a state away.
contrary to your belief... we are not out here to gouge Honda salesmen, we are out for all of them... j/k.
Anyway.. It's awesome to hear that you have a great repore with your clients, and even better that you are willing to go out of your way to help them and get them taken care of.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how great of a guy you are, sometimes money plays a HUGE factor, especially if you are upside-down. Yes, maybe if they are upside-down, they shouldn't be buying, but that's another conversation all together.
I'm a primo example. This is back in 11/01/02. Dropped by the local Honda dealer, after talking with him, he was a great guy, but his manager wouldn't let him sell me the '03 Accord for less than MSRP. Their used car guy wanted to give me ~19k for my Trailblazer 4x4 LS w/ 11k miles on it. So even with rolling as much of my neg eq into it, the best deal he could come up with was ~5k out of pocket.
I called the dealer across town. Upfront, 500 over invoice. trade? gotta bring it down... ok. brought it down, he put in the wholesale calls, guess what? 21k. great. All in all, he saved me ~2k on the car, and got me about an extra grand in my trade. Just to be fair, I had to think about it. Called the local dealer, and told him I had a written deal that just needed finalization, written online quote and all, and told him that if he could come within $500, I would buy from them. They came down to $4k out of pocket. So I went back across town. Financed MSRP(was preapproved at the CU and no one could beat it) and paid $1872.73 out of pocket.
Fact of the matter is how much would you rather take out of your bank account? 5k++ or 1872? they were both great guys, and I actually got a birthday card from the guy that sold me the car... (that was different). I will admit some people go for broke, but some SM's won't let cars go for the same as others. It's nothing a salesman can help, but 3k+ is a lot of money to save for 2hrs of inconvenience.
we have all kinds of possible taxes at the maximum possible rate here in California. Being the 5th largest economy in the "world" I would think that there will be sufficient revenues to cut down on certain taxes. People might say that we have low property taxes but then property prices are 4 times the national average so we again end up paying more than anyone in the country. BTW, to answer your question we have 8.5% sales tax. Now that we have "The Terminator" for governor I hope he would terminate atleast some of the taxes.
Richard, Thanks for your post. I calculated $25560 (as 90% of $28400 MSRP) for the 2004 EX V6 NAV and found this price very reasonable compared to the difference bet the 2003 MSRP and invoice. So thanks for the 90% guideline. Just to nail this down: I can't imagine the actual invoice will be $23551 (some $5000 less than MSRP) as ConsumerGuide listed, can you? And also, the 2004 Accords are all over dealers' lots, so I don't understand why the invoice price info is still not widely available at the auto web sites (including Edmunds).
Anyway, a dealer offered $25651 (just slightly above the 90% figure), and another a bit higher, but two other quotes were noticeably higher. I am thinking about arranging a test drive at the lowest price dealer tomorrow. Will update as I go through the buying process. Thanks again. Kevin.
Rueshan, Thanks for your reply. I only wish I can end up getting as good a deal as you did. This is a basic question (I have had a Civic for the last 12 yrs and by now am completely ignorant of car purchasing details): Do they figure the sales tax on the car price alone, or on the car price+freight figure? (I assume that title and tag fees are not subject to sales tax). Also, a dealer mentioned a processing fee of $100 in Maryland where I live. Did you have to pay a processing fee when you purchased, and if so, was it subject to sales tax?
I also read your post in the NAV system board. Glad to hear you (as well as almost everyone else) like the NAV and think it was worth the money. I'm looking forward to getting it. Thanks. Kevin
Hi, richards38 and others, I am just learning about manufacturer-to-dealer holdbacks. Is the holdback really 2% to 3%? And does it apply to all Accords regardless of trim and model?
In light of the holdback, I am considering trying to pay just the invoice price (rather than some amount above invoice). Is this a realistic strategy? (I'm shopping for 2004 Accord EX V6 NAV sedan). Thanks. Kevin
You state "If you are worried about price look at the markup in every other car out there, and look at your 5 year retained value. This is where you got over on the other guy. By getting a Honda in the first place. If Honda over priced their cars like every one else. Then we would have rebates too." Let me ask you a question about selling new 03's that, by Edmunds or KBB data, should depreciate $4.5K-5K as soon as they are driven off the lot.
Why do Honda salespersons pooh-pooh this point and respond with "look at the retained value," or "they might depreciate $1K-1.5K, but never $5K," or "Edmunds/KBB must be smoking their ganja belts - their data is all wrong?"
Doesn't Edmunds or KBB do their homework as well, and have the data to back it up? Why can't the dealer and buyer share the depreciation in a win-win way, instead of the buyer "maybe" getting some great "$1000-off deal, and (possibly) 1.9-2.9 financing?" It wasn't the buyers fault the 03's are still on the lot, and I'm not suggesting the dealer eat all the depreciation - but the fact is the car's a year old when it leaves the lot, and the buyer may be even further upside-down despite the financing special.
Tell me I'm all wet sbhonda, or let's hear comments from some buyers - is this a lost cause to argue about?
That post and the responses to it would be better placed in one of the discussions on our Smart Shopper board.
For those who are interested, click on that link and review the list of discussions - you'll find many in which this theme is being examined in great detail.
So after spending a few hours last night researching internet prices I called the dealer with what I thought was a good price $27,541 which I got from CarsDirect. The dealer automatically beat the price by $100. Now I've spent a chunk of time reading through this board and I find out that I could have gotten them to an even lower price. Richards38 has gotten one of the best deals so far with $26,300 before taxes and licensing, etc.. How do I approach the salesman with that price or a price like it? When I mentioned CarsDirect he was quick to make a deal. I'm in So.Cal. and with the hike in licensing fees I'd definitely like to save more money.
Also, I am going to trade-in my car and am wondering if anyone has any suggestions there? After reading "Confessions of a Car Salesman" I'm definitely looking out for my best interest and do not want to be controlled.
Lastly, can someone tell me what the standard security system is for this model. I have heard different things from different dealerships and I'd like the truth. I was told by one dealership that it would be $695 to "upgrade" my security system so that the alarm would go off if someone broke any of the windows. Well, $695 but they would give it to me for $495. I was told by another dealership that it was standard but the salesgal didn't seem to know what she was talking about. I got one of the small windows in my Explorer broken into and the alarm was what saved me from losing the contents of my car which at the time (Christmas) were valuable. If someone could clear this up for me I'd appreciate it.
I never have bought a new car and it's become sort of a hobby. Does that sound weird? It's actually fun for me! I'm sad about all of the deception that I've encountered though.
lkl, There is a security system that I would buy when I buy my new Accord next year. It's called LoJack. Basically what it is (and I'm no expert, don't get me wrong, I have only heard about it), it's a system that few people know about (especially thieves) and it acts kind of like a GPS security system. In other words, when a car gets stolen that has LoJack, a silent alarm or beeper goes off that the thief didn't know was there. That alarm is transmitted to the local police station and EVERY POLICE CAR WITHIN A CERTAIN RADIUS. The only way you can turn off the silent alarm is either through a professional or completely destroying the box, and even then I think it's hard. LoJack claims that most people (99%) find their car within 24 hours. Is that incredible or what? I would highly recommend it whatever the cost because it will save you money on insurance AND considering the fact that the Accord is one of the most stolen cars in America.
I would be very interested to see what will happen. with the '03's coming out with laser cut keys coupled with the engine immobilizer, they may slowly lose their infamous title(I hope)...
As for the break-in... luckily, I haven't had any of my cars broken into, but I also follow a couple of rules. Don't leave anything in the car. about the only thing you can see from outside my car is the few pieces of trash on the floor. All bags, shirts, etc(anything remotely of value) is either in the trunk or out of sight. If at night, park under a light and not too out of the way, park in a high foot traffic area, etc... ya know, the basics. =o)
The factory alarm simply monitors the ignition, door pins, and I believe the trunk pin. when it activates, a red LED under your fuel guage lights up and flashes, when the alarm is triggered, its the standard parking/headlight flash w/ the honk-honk deal. As far as I know, there is no "factory upgrade" available except for the hood pin. If they are going to put one in for you, ask them if all of your keyfob features will work on it(window roll-down, trunk release, panic, 2 stage unlock, etc) and also ensure that you will not have to pick up any other alarm fobs... Sometimes that is what an "upgrade" is, but then what's the point in having an "all in one" key? If they are going to send the car out to some other co. to install an aftermarket, you can most likely get it done for much cheaper than $500, and at least you will get to pick the one you want and the features you get...
the only problem with lojack is that it only covers 21 states, and Washington D.C. only 8 of those 21 states are statewide coverage, you have to pay $69/2years to have it inspected after you pay for the professional installation, and it isn't activated unless you initiate the activation.
Hehe... called 'em... so it's like $695 to have it installed, and can't be tranferred to another vehicle...
Personally, my Comprehensive on my accord is like $100/6mo, so if I get a $20 discount on my insurance/6mo, every couple of years I will save about $10. Chances are, some dude steals it... he/she isn't going to treat my car very nice, and personally, I would almost rather they not find it at all unless they find it in the same condition I left it. Especially because if it is not in the same condition(been in an accident, banged up, missing seats, etc) I will still have to file a comprehensive claim, and my rates will go up regardless...
Thanks for the info. Now that I know a little more about, maybe I won't get it. You do have valid points though. Just curious, but how much are you paying for insurance? I'm shopping around, and when I DO get my Accord, I'll pay between $1056-$1950 for 6 MONTHS! That's crazy considering I haven't had any accidents that past five years (I did have a small one that was my fault in '98) and I also have had one ticket.
Please note, lkl, that I didn't buy a V6 w/NAV--I responded to someone who wanted pricing direction and I suggested that a favorable deal would PROBABLY be invoice plus $300 or $400 for that top-of-the-line car. I estimated the invoice price (about 90% of MSRP less transportation) and added $300 to it to arrive at what I thought would be a good deal and would be roughly what I was able to get on my new (late August) Accord EX-L 4 cyl., no NAV. My pre-tax (including transportation) price was $22.7 and I think that was about $250-$300 over invoice and gave the dealer a total gross profit of about $750 after including a holdback estimated at 2% of MSRP. I'm still unclear about the holdback amount because some sites say it's 2% and some say 3% on Honda Accords (a higher holdback would add to the dealer's profit). I think my deal was good although some people have done a bit better. In my case there was no trade to complicate matters and the doc fee was $45, not the much higher fee that some buyers appear to have paid to some dealers. I'm in San Francisco where everything is costly, so I'd expect to pay more than the best prices you'll hear about on this site. For people living in the San Francisco area, I'd recommend San Francisco Honda which was a pleasure to deal with.......Richard
for 100/300 liab, and 100ded comp, 500ded coll, full coverage towing, rental, etc, I pay about $960/6mo. 24yo single, 1ticket, 1accident in '99 at fault w/ 40k in damage. =o(
Of course, in november when it renews, I should be looking at about 600/6mo because my ticket fell off in August(reeeal bad one, 26mph over the speedlimit... =o( 51 in a 25 i think that's like 8 points... =oP)
So here's some things to look at... costco has an insurance program thru amex, some work places have "group buys" with specific ins co's, and also some credit unions do the "insurance broker" thing...
My CU hooked me on Safeco, and they are a pretty reliable co, from what I can see.
Be aware of your credit report as well... Insurance companies have this huge thing with credit reports now in many states... some study came out that says that people who are financially secure are statistically "safer" drivers... so different ins co's put different amounts of weight into this... and the rates are accordingly.
You can go to Equifax.com and get a auto insurance score thingy and it will tell you how you rate, etc. what your downfalls are, etc. etc.
The security system that is standard is passive so it will only be set off if someone opens a door. You can get an upgrade to the "FULL" Security system that is a shock sensor so that if a car handle is jiggled it will give a warning and if the car is broken into (including windows) the alarm will sound. I was quoted $395 for this feature. That sounds like a good deal to me. I have become paranoid since I got my car broken into...NOW I follow all of the obvious rules and the nice thing about owning a car versus an SUV will be a trunk!
As for the pricing, if I follow the "Richards38 principle that puts invoice of the EX V6 W/ NAV at $26,050. So, if I pay $27,441 that's $1391 OVER invoice. That's not bad but do you think I could do better? Maybe I should try to get what I want for my trade-in and if I don't then try to get him to cut me a better deal on the price? Or both? I would really like to know if anyone else has paid a better price here in So. Cal than $27,441. I tried searching through all of the messages but it's difficult to find the right ones. So, please respond if you have gotten a better price.
Also, anymore comments on the security system are appreciated. The dealer that is supposed to have my car isn't getting it in until tomorrow so I have a little time to figure everything out.
I feel ignorant asking but could someone explain the "holdback" to me? I'm not familiar with the terminology.
Also, put "auto dealer holdback" into Google and you'll see more info.
Several sites, including Edmunds (my favorite) have shown a 3% holdback for Honda Accords--other sites say it's 2%. That extra 1% adds $200 to $270 to the dealer's profit if that's the case. So you should probably try to get a deal that's about $300 to $400 over the invoice price--the dealer might make close to $1000 after all is considered, but I'm really not sure of that--just an educated guess. With respect to a trade, it's almost always better to sell your old car yourself if you have the time to do that. The dealer has costs and then must make a profit on your old car, so you really can't do as well trading as selling the old car yourself. It really is more a matter of what your time is worth rather than what the car is worth.........Richard
Holdback could actually work to my advantage in negotiating then since the vehicle that I want isn't even on the lot yet, right? I put a fully-refundable-no-strings-attached deposit down on the vehicle so I have the first right of refusal. Since the vehicle will not even be on the lot for a day then the dealership will make ALL of the holdback. Since Honda is 3% of the MSRP will I have to see what the MSRP is at that specific dealership or is MSRP the same (28,890) everywhere? If I understand correctly the dealership would make the money that I pay over invoice AND the holdback? Am I getting that right or am I misunderstanding?
Thanks so much for educating me! I've been telling my friends everything that I've been learning!
That's right as far as I can tell. I still don't know whether Honda Accord holdback is 2% or 3%--I've seen it shown both ways on different web sites. Either way, you could make $300 over invoice-- probably a decent price on a popular car--your maximum price and walk away if you can't get that deal or better........Richard
After you get a quote which you know is X over invoice, you then need to get out the door pricing. You might want to do this before you go to the dealership if you are comparison shopping by phone or email. Dealerships all charge various fees, most common being the "document fee" and the fee to register with the state. The fee varies; even the fee to register you with the state, since they can make a profit on that. One dealer told me that they can split the fees up however they want, and what the consumer should really look at is the out the door price rather then any particular fee. Seems to make very good sense. In NJ, my offers all included registration and document fees that combined for about 2-300 give or take. Not a huge spread between dealers, but enough to impact which was the best offer. You can ignore window-etching -- many dealerships seem to try to sneak it in there to look like a fee, but you can get them to take it off -- its an option, not a fee.
Remember to evaluate which state's sales tax is lowest, which will impact whether you buy the car before or after your move. I almost missed this point and paid NY's 8+% rather then NJ's 6%. Thankfully, a NJ dealership pointed this out to me. Keep in mind that you pay the tax of the state where you are a resident, not the state where you buy. So its only moving that makes a difference -- you can't just drive to a state with lower tax and get a bargain.
Prob very obvious but since I almost screwed it up I thought it might conceivably help someone else to post.
Stopped by a Honda dealer today - I was interested in a white accord coupe with ivory leather interior. The ivory looks like tan to me - I love the accord coupe - but hate the interior colors - anyone else think the color selection on these fine autos could stand some improvement?
I'm getting the silver EX V6 only because I like the black leather interior with the brushed metal look versus the ivory (which IS tan) with the scary faux wood. I figure I'm going to be spending more time inside the car than outside admiring the color so...
There are silver cars everywhere and I had little desire to own anything so common; however, I really wanted a black leather interior that is available only with silver unless I chose a car other than the Accord. Alternatives to the Accord were not as good so I bought the 4 door silver/black combo and it's beautiful. My last car was white which I liked because it didn't show the light dust that's everywhere in San Francisco (lots of construction in the city and plenty of wind to spread the crud around). I think silver is even better than white with respect to hiding mild dirt, so it's a practical color. The black leather interior is very rich looking--the car looks like a luxury car costing much more. Remember that you'll spend more time looking at your car's interior than the exterior, so you'd be wise to buy the car that appeals to you the most on the INSIDE......Richard
OK great, it is nothing about yall and discounts I do my best and My GM jumps all over us about profit on the flip side next month he jump us about units the deals are out there you just have to work a little to get the best one. like one person said for two hours work its worth the money. I have seen all kinds of deals go out the door. but don't just shop the car. shop the trade too. the number that you want to look at is the trade difference. and stay away from payment till you have the price that you feel is right for you. most of the info that I see on-line about invoice prices are just about right on but not all of the have destination and handling. TMV from most sources are a little high. I get to see some of the numbers from auctions there are cars that we think we are in low and we end up taking a bath in them. basically your car is worth what some one is willing to pay for it(NEW as well as used) my best advice is get some trade values from dealers take the highest number sell it out right and try to do a little better then just deal on the car itself. __________security system ok the SYSTEM in Hondas is a key less entry opening a door (pin) with out using key or key less will set off the horn. the security system that Honda has is expensive at full price so work on that too but if you have problems it is covered under warranty. if you have an after market system it will not be covered or any system that it may effect. and they might have to disconnect it to fix a problem and not reconnect it.--------dealer profit and hold back -- hold back is not really a percentage as just a set number by Honda on a certain car. every penny over invoice is dealer profit but they have what they call a "Pack" advertising costs and other gen. costs if they don't cover this they call it a loss but that will not affect you as they go by the ave gross profit some are winners and some are losers.---I do some of the internet sales at my place and had a customer that sent E-mails from Chicago to Houston and said if you book a flight 2 weeks out you can get a flight cheap enough to cover a great deal on a car so spread out. it will help you get the best price. and just use their prices were you live. but the nicer you are the easier it is to get a good deal.**** if you do have alot of neg. equity then it doesn't hurt to look at a lease with Honda high resuidial value the payments are lower and don't forget you can work price there too. when you drop it off no more neg. equity****** Once again thank you for your feed back.
in my last message I said stay away from payment you do have to consider that for starters like don't try to get a $300 payment on a 28890 accord. but don't neg. for lowest payment they can change that with out changing the price by just extending the term. if you can't afford the payment at 60mo then 72 don't matter yes it will be lower but it will cost you a whole lot more in the end Have Fun & Drive Safe
About the security system...it sounds like the upgraded security system is really sensitive. It has the "Back away from the car" warning and will also go off if someone bumps into it, right? I just want it to go off if someone breaks the window. Is there an option like that?
Also, what exactly is your opinion about a "fair price" for the EX V6? If invoice is around $26,050 and I've been offered $27441 AND it wouldn't be on the lot for more than a few hours I definitely still have some room to negotiate. Right?
So they can't extend out the payments because we won't be dealing with them. We are going to bring our trade-in in the morning and after they give us a price for the trade-in I will know better how to negotiate.
As for the discussion of Accord colors and interior choices......
I'm looking for a V6 coupe with navigation in Desert Mist (Biege/Tan). I don't like the color options, too limited, with emphasis on DARK exterior with a dark interior. I DO like the Ivory interior and when I saw the coupe in Desert Mist I thought it had an elegant/sporty look. The silver ones are the only ones I see on the road-nice but too common. I hate the RED coupe color and would love to see the sedan Redondo red on the coupe body. The Redondo red is richer and classier IMO.
At this time of year that's a good price. The cars are coming in however there is lots of interest in the new model year. If you don't buy it someone else will. If you were talking about an '03 car that would be a high price but for one that will have significant demand that's a fair number for both sides. The most important word in the whole thing being fair.
So many people don't look at the value in a Honda, especially compared to other makes. They don't look at the years of enjoyment the vehicle will provide. They don't look at the lower cost of ownership compared to anything else in it's class. They don't look at anything except the price. I'm not suggesting it should be totally ignored however I'm suggesting that people look at it at least briefly in relation to their own business and consider what it would be like if everyone who dealt with your product or service only wanted to take you to a level below a fair profit.
A very long discussion could be made about "it's fair to pay invoice since there's holdback money" or "it's fair to pay invoice since there's incentive money" or "it's fair because" however there are factors that offset some of that money such as the cars that are on the ground over 90 days etc. In any business there are factors beyond the basics that everyone has access to. I understand and agree that $1000 is a significant sum of money however in 5 years, or 1826 days, of enjoying my vehicle that's a little over 50 cents a day to have and enjoy just what I want.
If the sales guy is a jerk and the managers treat me poorly then I will walk but if they treat me well and take good care of me then I don't mind them making a decent living just like I want to make. They don't deserve a decent living any less than I do. They may not all earn the right to make it with me however for the ones who do earn it that's the point, they earn it and I shouldn't make it a crusade to deprive them of as much of it as I possibly can.
I don't pinch pennies and turn into Scrooge when I'm buying a television or shoes or groceries or videos. I select what I want and pay a fair price for it. That's all anyone wants is a fair price and a fair profit and a fair income.
Comments
I don't think Bond paid 300 under invoice on a 2004 EX with leather and Nav. That is almost impossible this time of year. Its far more likely he has a manual transmission, which is -750 to invoice, and he thus paid 3 or 4 hundred over invoice. Sorry Bond -- you still got a great deal, just not an impossible deal.
Another error I've seen people make -- if your in California or NY, the dealers can only sell you a PZEV vehicle, which adds 100 or so to the invoice. So don't quote your invoice price to people who aren't from Cal or NY.
It's possible to get under invoice on an 04 if you know what you are doing and are willing to walk if you don't get the deal you want. We paid $22,800 for the car along including fog lights, decklid spoiler, splash guards, and fender trim. That works out to about $21,900 for the car if you use wholesale prices on the accessories. Not sure what the exact invoice on the car is but I think we were pretty close, if not under.
I said "If you must have an advertising or document or property tax or any other fee you need to include these in your price quote - do not try to add these in after we have set the price" In other words - if the dealership "must" charge a $350 advertising fee, $50 doc fee, $150 property tax fee disclose this at the time we are negotiating the price.
The dealership can "breakdown" the price of the car anyway they want - I could care less - just let me know up front.
Now really what is wrong with disclosing the fees that "must" be charged at the time the selling price is being negotiated?
MSRP on the sticker was 24910, paid 22710 per the dealership and invoice is about 22460 per the web site carsdirect.com. So I think we got 2200 off the list price and about $250 above invoice.
I say think because a trade-in was involved. I went to about 5 dealerships and everyone gave me a different quote on the trade-in and a different quote on the new car. The only way I could balance the two numbers was to add then up. In this deal I got $3500 on the trace in. Not the best and not the worst.
I have a question for anyone who has the XM radio. How many channels did you get for the 3 month trail period. I was playing with it last night and all I get a about 6 or 7 channels. The salesman had no clue on how to use it because their classes for this new product (XM radio) is not until November. So he couldn't tell me anything.
1. Do you know what the correct actual invoice price is (or where I can find it) for this particular 04 model?
2. Does the $26300 (you mentioned you paid) include the $460 freight?
3. Does the voice activation work well? i.e. Do you have to train it by talking to it several times to get it to recognize your voice?
Thanks. I'll certainly keep your price in mind when I start to negotiate.
Thanks for confirming I got a great deal. I did indeed get a 2004 Auto-4L with NAV for the price.
Actually the way it worked was that I went to a diff. dealer and test drove the car (03 model), like it but not the color. It was a Black with Tan interior, would have preferred a Black with Black or Gray. The sales guy then gave me all the schmooze and asked me what I am willing to pay. People usually make the mistake by spilling out what they are willing to pay, for that becomes the baseline for the dealer to work with. I asked them to give me their invoice and what price they are willing to sell car. Initially the sales guy resisted and insisted on my price but when he realized that I am not biting the bait he called his manager who gave me their invoice and told me they were willing to sell it for $100+ invoice, which was a great price, specially with the 2.9% APR on 03's. I made sure they saw the paperwork (invoice prices, quotes etc.) I was carrying with me. The price became my baseline to work down from. But then I was not too keen on the color so I started contacting other dealers by phone. I gave them my price, which was invoice of 03 and asked them to beat it. Also visited another dealer, for face to face contact makes a huge diff., they know that you are in it for real. Then it was just a matter of luck and timing I guess, one of the dealers accepted the price and drove over and signed the papers, no haggling at all, the best experience I have ever had. I also beat the Sep. 30 deadline for CA registration, when the cost of registering went up by 3 times. Man the lic. fees in CA are already steep and now they are just exorbitant, I hope this recall succeeds and whoever gets elected revokes the hike.
Cheers,
Enjoy the car
Thanks in advance for your input.
1. According to my dealer, invoice on this car was $25,612... which made invoice plus destination equal to $26,072.
2. The $26,300 that I mentioned included invoice and destination, as well as the mudflaps and visor.
3. The voice command works very well and does not require voice training. However, you will have to learn the commands that it is designed to look for, and use the exact syntax required. It is a very nice system.
I am enjoying my car and have not had any of the 'problems' talked about in this website. I have it in silver with black leather, and have also added the fog lights and spoiler. I hope your sales transaction goes as smoothly as mine did.
AS far as my deal, NJ taxes are 6%. I have spent a lot of time on this, and 26,100 is the price I'm ending up with. I do have two dealers willing to do that, so there is some hope of further reduction. I'm quite happy with my price, although I have to hand it to you for getting a significantly better one. What is the Cal. tax rate?
I'm the person thats greets you with a smile and sits down to help you decide what you want and need in your next car then pulls up the car you want at a price you can afford. I go over the things you want to know about (by the way I have Never shown a vanity mirror) do an all around test drive highways, curves, rough roads and braking. As well as nicely ask for the sale with out pushing. and do a compleat delivery of a car by going over the car, the manuals, and making sure your car is clean before you leave. I call after to see if you have any questions. I have even gone out to a customers job to install floor mats in a civic(they have brackets that need to be put in). If you are treated bad then go for broke get all the discounts you can. But if you are treated right, I just ask that you be nice and see that price for what it really is a good value for a really good car.
thank you
_____X_______
your Friendly Honda sales person
You initially said you came on the board to learn customer opinions, but your email seems designed to attack the be educated and get-the-best value approach that this board is all about. I think you will find the people on these boards happy to give you any feedback on any questions you might have, but if you want to attack us for trying to educate ourselves and negotiate the best deal then you don't belong here. Rest assured that 95% of the people on this particular forum already think Hondas are great deals. Why else would we be shopping for one? We don't need a lecture any more then we need window etching or the interior & rust protection package.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh. Its not my intent to attack you for your first post here. All I would ask is that you go back and read it and think about it from our perspective.
You will be welcomed here if you treat these boards as an opportunity to learn our opinions, and if, in exchange, you answer questions that only a honda dealer can answer. If you insist on speachifying, you'll inevitably get into harsh and pointless debates with people.
Anyway.. It's awesome to hear that you have a great repore with your clients, and even better that you are willing to go out of your way to help them and get them taken care of.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how great of a guy you are, sometimes money plays a HUGE factor, especially if you are upside-down. Yes, maybe if they are upside-down, they shouldn't be buying, but that's another conversation all together.
I'm a primo example. This is back in 11/01/02. Dropped by the local Honda dealer, after talking with him, he was a great guy, but his manager wouldn't let him sell me the '03 Accord for less than MSRP. Their used car guy wanted to give me ~19k for my Trailblazer 4x4 LS w/ 11k miles on it. So even with rolling as much of my neg eq into it, the best deal he could come up with was ~5k out of pocket.
I called the dealer across town. Upfront, 500 over invoice. trade? gotta bring it down... ok. brought it down, he put in the wholesale calls, guess what? 21k. great. All in all, he saved me ~2k on the car, and got me about an extra grand in my trade. Just to be fair, I had to think about it. Called the local dealer, and told him I had a written deal that just needed finalization, written online quote and all, and told him that if he could come within $500, I would buy from them. They came down to $4k out of pocket. So I went back across town. Financed MSRP(was preapproved at the CU and no one could beat it) and paid $1872.73 out of pocket.
Fact of the matter is how much would you rather take out of your bank account? 5k++ or 1872? they were both great guys, and I actually got a birthday card from the guy that sold me the car... (that was different). I will admit some people go for broke, but some SM's won't let cars go for the same as others. It's nothing a salesman can help, but 3k+ is a lot of money to save for 2hrs of inconvenience.
Cheers
Anyway, a dealer offered $25651 (just slightly above the 90% figure), and another a bit higher, but two other quotes were noticeably higher. I am thinking about arranging a test drive at the lowest price dealer tomorrow. Will update as I go through the buying process. Thanks again. Kevin.
I also read your post in the NAV system board. Glad to hear you (as well as almost everyone else) like the NAV and think it was worth the money. I'm looking forward to getting it. Thanks. Kevin
In light of the holdback, I am considering trying to pay just the invoice price (rather than some amount above invoice). Is this a realistic strategy? (I'm shopping for 2004 Accord EX V6 NAV sedan). Thanks. Kevin
Why do Honda salespersons pooh-pooh this point and respond with "look at the retained value," or "they might depreciate $1K-1.5K, but never $5K," or "Edmunds/KBB must be smoking their ganja belts - their data is all wrong?"
Doesn't Edmunds or KBB do their homework as well, and have the data to back it up? Why can't the dealer and buyer share the depreciation in a win-win way, instead of the buyer "maybe" getting some great "$1000-off deal, and (possibly) 1.9-2.9 financing?" It wasn't the buyers fault the 03's are still on the lot, and I'm not suggesting the dealer eat all the depreciation - but the fact is the car's a year old when it leaves the lot, and the buyer may be even further upside-down despite the financing special.
Tell me I'm all wet sbhonda, or let's hear comments from some buyers - is this a lost cause to argue about?
geo_cacher_fl
Here is a link from there that might help you with understanding holdback: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html.
You might want to follow some of the other links under that tab.
Good luck!
For those who are interested, click on that link and review the list of discussions - you'll find many in which this theme is being examined in great detail.
Have fun!
Also, I am going to trade-in my car and am wondering if anyone has any suggestions there? After reading "Confessions of a Car Salesman" I'm definitely looking out for my best interest and do not want to be controlled.
Lastly, can someone tell me what the standard security system is for this model. I have heard different things from different dealerships and I'd like the truth. I was told by one dealership that it would be $695 to "upgrade" my security system so that the alarm would go off if someone broke any of the windows. Well, $695 but they would give it to me for $495. I was told by another dealership that it was standard but the salesgal didn't seem to know what she was talking about. I got one of the small windows in my Explorer broken into and the alarm was what saved me from losing the contents of my car which at the time (Christmas) were valuable. If someone could clear this up for me I'd appreciate it.
I never have bought a new car and it's become sort of a hobby. Does that sound weird? It's actually fun for me! I'm sad about all of the deception that I've encountered though.
Thanks in advance!
There is a security system that I would buy when I buy my new Accord next year. It's called LoJack. Basically what it is (and I'm no expert, don't get me wrong, I have only heard about it), it's a system that few people know about (especially thieves) and it acts kind of like a GPS security system. In other words, when a car gets stolen that has LoJack, a silent alarm or beeper goes off that the thief didn't know was there. That alarm is transmitted to the local police station and EVERY POLICE CAR WITHIN A CERTAIN RADIUS. The only way you can turn off the silent alarm is either through a professional or completely destroying the box, and even then I think it's hard. LoJack claims that most people (99%) find their car within 24 hours. Is that incredible or what? I would highly recommend it whatever the cost because it will save you money on insurance AND considering the fact that the Accord is one of the most stolen cars in America.
As for the break-in... luckily, I haven't had any of my cars broken into, but I also follow a couple of rules. Don't leave anything in the car. about the only thing you can see from outside my car is the few pieces of trash on the floor. All bags, shirts, etc(anything remotely of value) is either in the trunk or out of sight. If at night, park under a light and not too out of the way, park in a high foot traffic area, etc... ya know, the basics. =o)
The factory alarm simply monitors the ignition, door pins, and I believe the trunk pin. when it activates, a red LED under your fuel guage lights up and flashes, when the alarm is triggered, its the standard parking/headlight flash w/ the honk-honk deal. As far as I know, there is no "factory upgrade" available except for the hood pin. If they are going to put one in for you, ask them if all of your keyfob features will work on it(window roll-down, trunk release, panic, 2 stage unlock, etc) and also ensure that you will not have to pick up any other alarm fobs... Sometimes that is what an "upgrade" is, but then what's the point in having an "all in one" key? If they are going to send the car out to some other co. to install an aftermarket, you can most likely get it done for much cheaper than $500, and at least you will get to pick the one you want and the features you get...
Hehe... called 'em... so it's like $695 to have it installed, and can't be tranferred to another vehicle...
Personally, my Comprehensive on my accord is like $100/6mo, so if I get a $20 discount on my insurance/6mo, every couple of years I will save about $10. Chances are, some dude steals it... he/she isn't going to treat my car very nice, and personally, I would almost rather they not find it at all unless they find it in the same condition I left it. Especially because if it is not in the same condition(been in an accident, banged up, missing seats, etc) I will still have to file a comprehensive claim, and my rates will go up regardless...
I dunno... just MHO
Of course, in november when it renews, I should be looking at about 600/6mo because my ticket fell off in August(reeeal bad one, 26mph over the speedlimit... =o( 51 in a 25 i think that's like 8 points... =oP)
So here's some things to look at... costco has an insurance program thru amex, some work places have "group buys" with specific ins co's, and also some credit unions do the "insurance broker" thing...
My CU hooked me on Safeco, and they are a pretty reliable co, from what I can see.
Be aware of your credit report as well... Insurance companies have this huge thing with credit reports now in many states... some study came out that says that people who are financially secure are statistically "safer" drivers... so different ins co's put different amounts of weight into this... and the rates are accordingly.
You can go to Equifax.com and get a auto insurance score thingy and it will tell you how you rate, etc. what your downfalls are, etc. etc.
As for the pricing, if I follow the "Richards38 principle that puts invoice of the EX V6 W/ NAV at $26,050. So, if I pay $27,441 that's $1391 OVER invoice. That's not bad but do you think I could do better? Maybe I should try to get what I want for my trade-in and if I don't then try to get him to cut me a better deal on the price? Or both? I would really like to know if anyone else has paid a better price here in So. Cal than $27,441. I tried searching through all of the messages but it's difficult to find the right ones. So, please respond if you have gotten a better price.
Also, anymore comments on the security system are appreciated. The dealer that is supposed to have my car isn't getting it in until tomorrow so I have a little time to figure everything out.
I feel ignorant asking but could someone explain the "holdback" to me? I'm not familiar with the terminology.
Thanks again!
:-)
http://www.carbuytip.com/dealer-holdbacks.html
Also, put "auto dealer holdback" into Google and you'll see more info.
Several sites, including Edmunds (my favorite) have shown a 3% holdback for Honda Accords--other sites say it's 2%. That extra 1% adds $200 to $270 to the dealer's profit if that's the case. So you should probably try to get a deal that's about $300 to $400 over the invoice price--the dealer might make close to $1000 after all is considered, but I'm really not sure of that--just an educated guess. With respect to a trade, it's almost always better to sell your old car yourself if you have the time to do that. The dealer has costs and then must make a profit on your old car, so you really can't do as well trading as selling the old car yourself. It really is more a matter of what your time is worth rather than what the car is worth.........Richard
Thanks so much for educating me! I've been telling my friends everything that I've been learning!
Prob very obvious but since I almost screwed it up I thought it might conceivably help someone else to post.
I do my best and My GM jumps all over us about profit on the flip side next month he jump us about units the deals are out there you just have to work a little to get the best one. like one person said for two hours work its worth the money. I have seen all kinds of deals go out the door. but don't just shop the car. shop the trade too. the number that you want to look at is the trade difference. and stay away from payment till you have the price that you feel is right for you. most of the info that I see on-line about invoice prices are just about right on but not all of the have destination and handling.
TMV from most sources are a little high. I get to see some of the numbers from auctions there are cars that we think we are in low and we end up taking a bath in them. basically your car is worth what some one is willing to pay for it(NEW as well as used) my best advice is get some trade values from dealers take the highest number sell it out right and try to do a little better then just deal on the car itself. __________security system ok the SYSTEM in Hondas is a key less entry opening a door (pin) with out using key or key less will set off the horn. the security system that Honda has is expensive at full price so work on that too but if you have problems it is covered under warranty. if you have an after market system it will not be covered or any system that it may effect. and they might have to disconnect it to fix a problem and not reconnect it.--------dealer profit and hold back -- hold back is not really a percentage as just a set number by Honda on a certain car. every penny over invoice is dealer profit but they have what they call a "Pack" advertising costs and other gen. costs if they don't cover this they call it a loss but that will not affect you as they go by the ave gross profit some are winners and some are losers.---I do some of the internet sales at my place and had a customer that sent E-mails from Chicago to Houston and said if you book a flight 2 weeks out you can get a flight cheap enough to cover a great deal on a car so spread out. it will help you get the best price. and just use their prices were you live. but the nicer you are the easier it is to get a good deal.**** if you do have alot of neg. equity then it doesn't hurt to look at a lease with Honda high resuidial value the payments are lower and don't forget you can work price there too. when you drop it off no more neg. equity****** Once again thank you for your feed back.
but don't neg. for lowest payment they can change that with out changing the price by just extending the term.
if you can't afford the payment at 60mo then 72 don't matter yes it will be lower but it will cost you a whole lot more in the end
Have Fun & Drive Safe
Also, what exactly is your opinion about a "fair price" for the EX V6? If invoice is around $26,050 and I've been offered $27441 AND it wouldn't be on the lot for more than a few hours I definitely still have some room to negotiate. Right?
I'm looking for a V6 coupe with navigation in Desert Mist (Biege/Tan). I don't like the color options, too limited, with emphasis on DARK exterior with a dark interior. I DO like the Ivory interior and when I saw the coupe in Desert Mist I thought it had an elegant/sporty look. The silver ones are the only ones I see on the road-nice but too common. I hate the RED coupe color and would love to see the sedan Redondo red on the coupe body. The Redondo red is richer and classier IMO.
So many people don't look at the value in a Honda, especially compared to other makes. They don't look at the years of enjoyment the vehicle will provide. They don't look at the lower cost of ownership compared to anything else in it's class. They don't look at anything except the price. I'm not suggesting it should be totally ignored however I'm suggesting that people look at it at least briefly in relation to their own business and consider what it would be like if everyone who dealt with your product or service only wanted to take you to a level below a fair profit.
A very long discussion could be made about "it's fair to pay invoice since there's holdback money" or "it's fair to pay invoice since there's incentive money" or "it's fair because" however there are factors that offset some of that money such as the cars that are on the ground over 90 days etc. In any business there are factors beyond the basics that everyone has access to. I understand and agree that $1000 is a significant sum of money however in 5 years, or 1826 days, of enjoying my vehicle that's a little over 50 cents a day to have and enjoy just what I want.
If the sales guy is a jerk and the managers treat me poorly then I will walk but if they treat me well and take good care of me then I don't mind them making a decent living just like I want to make. They don't deserve a decent living any less than I do. They may not all earn the right to make it with me however for the ones who do earn it that's the point, they earn it and I shouldn't make it a crusade to deprive them of as much of it as I possibly can.
I don't pinch pennies and turn into Scrooge when I'm buying a television or shoes or groceries or videos. I select what I want and pay a fair price for it. That's all anyone wants is a fair price and a fair profit and a fair income.