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Oldsmobile Aurora Maintenance & Repair

17810121388

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    garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    I've looked at this and with the engine really good and hot at about 200 or maybe just a little under it will read 13 or 14 psi - have to probably translate that to kPa. I think that's 96 or 97 kPa. When it reaches full temp, it's around 17 psi (117 kPa). Let it idle in traffic a bit and get hotter and it goes to 14 (97 kPa). I use Mobile 1 10-30 oil. Hope that helps.

    I would like to visit again. Kracow is beautiful, the restored part of old old town Warsaw is unbelievable. It is amazing that everything was restored like that after the war. Salt mine was really cool. An entire church (big church) (chandeliers too) carved with the finest detail from salt hundreds of feet below ground. Unbelievable. Sorry, had to add the off topic cool Poland stuff.
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    mbiernackimbiernacki Member Posts: 11
    I've bought Aurora'95 Owners Manual but there is no word about correct pressure. My DIC shows me values between 190 kPa (about 27.5 psi) and 400 kPa (58 psi) !!! Are you talking about Owner's Manual or Service Manual?

    Regards
    Mike
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    mbiernackimbiernacki Member Posts: 11
    Thanks a lot for your help. I think that the problem is because of my oil (Mobil 1 0W50). I think that I have to change it to 10W50. After all there is 140 kmiles on my odometer:)

    Regards
    Mike
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    I guess my shop screwed me. They replaced ONE coil-set, ignition wires, and plugs...and charged me $545. And then they told me the stalling problem was something they couldn't/wouldn't even attempt to find..."Take it to the dealer". Which I did, and was told there that the PCM was bad. They just called me to tell me the PCM was in, but the car still stalls. I've mentioned the fuel pressure regulator but they insist that that is not the problem. Now what? This may be the last Americam made vehicle I ever buy.
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    garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    Changing from 0-50 to 10-50 will only give you oil that resists flow a little more at a cold start up. It will behave as 10w instead of 0w. When hot, both oils will behave the same - like 50w.

    I would use 10-30 as the manufacturer says. 0 or 5-30 if it is very cold. If it is worn and burns a lot of oil, you can maybe go heavier than 30 to help, but I only did that stuff on really old worn beaters.

    I would not use 50w anything. It may resist flowing as it should to protect your engine and cause wear. A more viscous oil like 50w doesn't necessarily mean more protection. It could mean less if the oil isn't getting where it needs to be.

    Just my thoughts. Any other motor oil experts please add or correct anything.
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    homer2000sseihomer2000ssei Member Posts: 159
    The other day, its minus 20 celcius overnight, so when i started her up in the morning, i did expect to get a lot of white tailpipe smoke - that lovely heat vapour cars give off . . . (you southerners may not experience this)

    Anyways, i pop back inside for aminute to slap on the rest of my winter gear and grab my coffee, return outside and see huge plumes of white exhaust and think it loks just a little too much. kinda like the vapour trails left by jets, it was huge. thte idle sounded wierd too . . i get in the car and tap the gas pedal hoing to bring down the idle. . it went funyy . .
    when i put itin gear, i had to two foot the brake and gas to keep it going and feather the pedal to get any momentum. it felt like an older car with a carb choking out. i made it about 2 miles and had to turn it back home -there was always a huge plume of vapour (white) and some blue mixed in.
    Thinking the worse, i made my appointment at the dealer, and had it towed there today for looking at.

    the car has 200,000KM on it- and leaks some oil, as well as some coolant that slowly disappears (im guessin into the engine). so im prepared for bad news . .

    the called and heres the story

    3 bad injectors - yup, three - they retail at $155 canadian each.
    plus, i need a some new plugs (now its a tune-up special with platinum plugs ($200Canadian)
    labour - all comes to about $1000

    the good news, i get dealer cost plus 10 since i am a mamber of a car club that has a deal set up with a few dealerships . .so i saved 250 off list from my $40 membership in the f-body club up here . .

    theres been a few part added to the green monster lately, including 4 new tires, alternator, water pump, belts etc . .

    hope i get a break for a while . . .
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    rjs200240rjs200240 Member Posts: 1,277
    Man, that sucks. I hope the 'Roara is good to you after that. But that is the cheapest dealer tune-up I've ever heard of! $200 (and Canadian dollars at that) is unbelievably low for a dealer. They always charge a boatload for stuff like that (especially on an 8-cylinder).
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    HenryHenry Member Posts: 1,106
    I got a total cost of $750.00 Canadian
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    Sorry....didn't mean to bash. I really do love my Aurora, but this stalling thing is driving me crazy. And the fact that a GM certified mechanic can't even find the problem really makes me wonder. A friend of mine with an Explorer was having the same stalling/surging problem. Turned out it had something to do with the exhaust temp sensor as well as the oxygen sensor and mass air flow sensor. Do these relate in any way to my Aurora's problem?
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    pizza442pizza442 Member Posts: 110
    Are both of these screwed into the pan/lower crankcase? I just bought the cheap, little gasket for the level sensor 'cause it was a little wet, but now I wonder if the unit I was looking at was the pressure sensor and not the level sensor. It sticks out of the "pan" pointing towards the pass side fog lamp (which is out again :-). I would think the pressure sensor is somewhere else, in the block itself.
    Jay
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    sinatra2sinatra2 Member Posts: 65
    The oil pressure sensor is located on the front lower section of the engine block.
    The oil level sensor is located on the upper front side of the oil pan.
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    kayaman420kayaman420 Member Posts: 207
    I have a 95 Aurora. I was cleaning the interior and got some window cleaner on my gear shift selector. This faded the color and now it looks horrible. My interior is Beige.
    Does anyone know how to repair this or is there a place that anyone knows to by aftermarkets for the Aurora.
    Also does anyone know how to get behind the clear window in front of the guages. Mine is dirty and I would like to clean it up. I know this is really small stuff , but we all know that small details is what seperates a good car from a great car.

    Thanks for any help Aurorians.
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    kayaman420kayaman420 Member Posts: 207
    If anyone has this problem please let me know what it was or how you fixed it. If you have this problem you will know what Im talking about.

    Sometimes when making a prolonged soft right turn i get a chirping/squeling sound from the right front wheel area. I can never get it to do it for the mechanic so I cant get it fixed because there are no visible problems. I am thinking it is either a strut mount or wheel bearing.

    Please Help
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    Two more things I need mention that were forgotten in the midst of this stalling problem. About a minute or so after starting the car ('98), I hear this high-pitch squeal or tone around 2000 Hz, coming from the left side of the engine as you face the car. This tone doesn't change pitch with engine rpm fluctuation. After about 3 minutes, goes away. Also, if I put the car into neutral before coming to a complete stop, I feel this mild "clunk" just before, at around 5 mph. Does this every single time without fail.
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    HenryHenry Member Posts: 1,106
    I had a squeal coming from the engine thta turned out to be the compressor.

    Just a thought.
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    larryfllarryfl Member Posts: 214
    ckirkpatric: I'd have to guess your squeal is coming from a pully when you first start it. You might try spraying some WD40 on the pully bearings -- not the fan belt :-) -- and see if that makes a difference. Otherwise, it sounds like a noise my traction control makes now when it engages. But, who knows - just a guess.

    The clunking of the tranny when comming to a stop if you're in neutral is normal, I think. I have a '95 and mine does the same thing. In fact, I think that came up on this board some time ago and it's something that every classic does.

    It's amazing how -after a while- you can get $$ signs in front of your eyes every time one of these cars hiccups, isn't it?
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    larryfllarryfl Member Posts: 214
    GO BUCS!!!!!
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    fdion1fdion1 Member Posts: 28
    Usually from a belt that is worn or has some oil or grease on it, or is simply too loose. There is a tensioner for the serpentine belt, it might also be in need of replacing.

    When did the serpentine belt last get changed?
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    ...Is DEFINITELY not the belts. They are in very good shape. The sound is almost electronic - no waver of pitch relative to rpm change. I suspect some kind of resonating in either hydraulic, A/C, or fuel line....
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    Well, I took the plunge and changed my FPR. Can't believe how easy it was to do! Caution: when you pop the clamp, some fuel will spray - not enough to worry about, but you don't want it in your eyes. Do this with ENGINE COLD!! Make sure you get the old rubber donut (the tiny one) out of the inner fitting. I didn't and spent 3 minutes trying to force the fpr with its new donut on top of the old one before I realized what was wrong. The bad news: my engine is still stalling. Now what? Mass air flow sensor? Oxygen sensor? EGT sensor? Help!!
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    What controls the engine speed at idle? Isn't there a sensor somewhere that maintains constant rpm when the A/C compressor engages and disengages, and when the engine is 'loaded' by the power steering pump if you turn the steering wheel? What if that sensor somehow became 'confused'...sent wrong signals to PCM/ECM? This stalling thing has become a crusade and I am going to get to the bottom of the problem somehow. Also, I've noticed that when coasting to a stop in neutral, the engine idles at about 1000 rpm until the 'clunk' at around 5 mph, then drops off to 600 rpm.
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    sinatra2sinatra2 Member Posts: 65
    ckirkpatrick...............the part you question is called the Throttle Position Sensor. Sends info to the pcm. If it is out of spec it could send incorrect info to the pcm causing a higher idle speed and even allow the torque converter clutch to operate in a strange way on the tranny.This is probably the clunk you hear as the TCC disengages. Everything is interlinked on these cars today. Question does it stall when warm , hot or all the time..........and does it do it a low throttle or when you juice it? Is your engine lite on to indicate a trouble code? A culprit for this problem can also be the EGR valve which is located by the water pump on top of the engine under that lovely plastic cover. If that is stuck open...the car will stall when the rpm drops to idle.

    Roger
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    Sinatra, thanks for the tip. I'll change that next. But I should tell you that the engine does idle fine at 600 rpm until the stall. The stall comes first as a drop in rpm (200-300rpm)for just a second or two. If I'm in gear, it usually dies. If in neutral, it will either die or surge up to about 1200rpm and then settle back. Today, after changing the FPR, I let the engine run (car in "park") for about 5 minutes, after which there was the drop in rpm and then a slight surge. A test drive after that revealed the same problem. A previous post indicates that the coasting-in-neutral-to-a-stop "clunk" happens on all Auroras. Thanks for your response.
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    homer2000sseihomer2000ssei Member Posts: 159
    Henry - yea, the posted items dont add to $1000 - i didnt include the $89 per hour labour to do the injectors - and the testing fee (they tried to charge me).

    They had the car over the weekend, cause no injectors could be found on Sat -
    Monday morn the shop calls - injectors are in, BUT, the started motor was badly in need of replacing (making noise the tech heard when trying to start) and the work sheet says failed. My friend said the drive end was all messed up, and in danger of breaking teeth off the flywheel (if it hadnt already). Good news? no bad teeth on flywheel - bad news, another 2.5 hours and suggested list if $395 for the motor, PLUS they had to remove the top covers to get in and gaskets where needed. He gave me my usual discount and i paid $225 for the starter - they slapped it all back together, and including the oil change - total damage was $1400 - my parts discount saved me about $400 - so it could have been worse.

    On the upside, car ran goog for the drive home - and i got a free car wash (hope my doors dont freeze overnight. It going to something like minus 15 or 20 celcius . .
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    sinatra2sinatra2 Member Posts: 65
    Your further explanation does indicate an EGR problem......at least it won't be a $600 fix.It should lite up the Service Engine Soon lite though.
    Glad to be of help....good luck
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    rjs200240rjs200240 Member Posts: 1,277
    While a bad TPS could probably affect the idle, it isn't what controls the idle. The TPS tells the computer how far open the throttle is. This is used to determine how much you are stepping on the gas to determine shifting and engine timing. The idle is controlled by the Idle Air Controller. It is a little round motor with a plunger on it that attaches to the throttle-body. The TB has a little passageway in it for air to get by when the throttle plate is closed (i.e. idling). The little plunger runs in this passageway and moves back and forth to change how much air is allowed through. The computer uses the stepper motor to adjust this little plunger to achieve the idle that it wants. The motor can conk out over time, and also the plunger can start to stick and such. This can lead to an erratic idle as the computer tries to adjust it and the motor doesn't respond. Then it eventually gets over adjusted and so on. I believe a bad MAF can also lead to a poor idle. I've had that happen on the Corvette. I think it's because the computer doesn't send the right amount of fuel since it is getting bad info on how much air is coming in. Does the SES light come on? That would be great because it may help you narrow down the culprit.
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    I genuinely appreciate the response here. As for the SES light, it has not come on through any of this. The only time it came on was when last week, I disconnected a sensor on the air cleaner housing - and I'd be curious to know which sensor this is - just to see what would happen. No noticeable changes in performance - she still stalled - but the SES did come on and stay on for about a day, then went out. Where is the Mass Airflow Sensor located? And I think I know where that idle-air controller is. If I watch that, will I perhaps see some movement relative to the engine's stalling? Thanks again, guys.
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    HenryHenry Member Posts: 1,106
    Why can't I sign into the Owners club like I used to do it? Before the change in appearance, I was able to bookmark the Aurora Owners club page and then autologin. Now when I try it, I start on the Aurora Owners listing and then get kicked out to the general owner club listing and have to search for Oldsmobile and then find Aurora. Whats up with that???

    Henri
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    chstr1000chstr1000 Member Posts: 32
    I've read some discussions about oil. People wondering what weight of oil to use. Talking about using W-50 etc,. Further back in discussion, cars are using alot of oil. 1 quart every 1000 or 1500 miles. I've noticed the cars that are using oil seem to be using synthetic oil. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that oil, but you won't catch me using it. If the manufacturer wanted synthetic oil in it, they would suggest that. Owners manual, and oil filler cap, says 10W-30! I use Havoline 10-W30 in my 96. It has yet to use any oil between changes. 80,000 miles on my car, change oil every 3000 miles.

    I have a Ford Ranger that calls for 5W-20 synthetic blend. That's what I use. I've heard that Ford will not cover engine components if they find you have used something different.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, you are better off to use what manufacturer calls for.
    At least, that's my opinion. Just wanted to get that of my chest.
     
    David
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    What I thought was the IAC was not. The thing I was looking at was connected to the transmission. Still waiting to hear from anyone about Mass Air Flow Sensor regarding the stalling.
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    sinatra2sinatra2 Member Posts: 65
    This is located on top of the throttle body. It measures the amount of air which passes through the throttle body. Feeds the signal to the pcm to control fuel mixture delivery.
    The manifold pressure sensor is located on top of the intake manifold and measures the pressure and sends data to the pcm to help operate the EGR valve.
    The throttle position sensor is on the throttle body and sends info to the pcm indicating the throttle valve angle. Then there is the idle air control which controls the throttle angle. As you can see any one of these items not working correctly will have an effect on the proper fuel/ air ratio and flow. I recommend you have a scanning tool plugged in to retrieve any codes.They will indicate what the problem is.
    I have the service manuals if you need the code explanation in the future.
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    homer2000sseihomer2000ssei Member Posts: 159
    ah.
    the ages old debate - dino or synth.

    you made a point about manufacturers wanting it or not . .

    Corvettes and Camaros have basically the same engine. Vettes come factory installed Mobil 1, Camaro's dont . . .

    There is a loaded webforum for oil, - i dont go there, cause i dont care about it alot -
    Rule #1 - reg driving and change intervals - anything will likely do it . .
    harsh or extreme, best read up on oil..

    i think it is bobistheoilguy - or bobtheoilguy
    dot com . . . try it . . one should work, and then bore you to death . .
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    blkboyinazblkboyinaz Member Posts: 10
    So, my 1996 Olds Aurora bought BARELY a month ago.
    First started with the SES light coming on now and then with a stalling.
         Now...my car completely shutdown today while I was driving. Just filled it up with gas, was turning a cornor going about 15 mph, and it died. No lights...no warning, nothing. All the power options in the car work. When you go to start it...it almost turns over...but never does.
    I was 2 days from having the money to buy a warranty! DANG IT!
    anyhow.....any ideas as to what i tcould be?
    It's sitting at the repair shop now....gotta call them and find out what THEY found wrong also.
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    blkboyinazblkboyinaz Member Posts: 10
    So, my 1996 Olds Aurora bought BARELY a month ago.
    First started with the SES light coming on now and then with a stalling.
         Now...my car completely shutdown today while I was driving. Just filled it up with gas, was turning a cornor going about 15 mph, and it died. No lights...no warning, nothing. All the power options in the car work. When you go to start it...it almost turns over...but never does.
    I was 2 days from having the money to buy a warranty! DANG IT!
    anyhow.....any ideas as to what i tcould be?
    It's sitting at the repair shop now....gotta call them and find out what THEY found wrong also.
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    Thanks, Sinatra2. Gonna look into those things. But as I mentioned before, my local Olds dealer's GM certified tech found nothing, even after replacing the PCM - and I have to assume he had the diagnostic computer hooked up to my Aurora. To repeat my symptoms: the car runs perfectly, shifts smoothly, does not hesitate or miss when hard accelerating, starts instantly every time. Only at a standstill and idling (600 rpm)does the stalling occur. If in gear and brakes applied, the rpm suddlenly drops, then it stalls. If in neutral, rpm will drop and then surge up to about 1200 then immediately back to 600. I am watching the battery voltage when this happens to see if there is any severe drop indicating a short/heavy load on alternator, but there is none. Voltage remains at a steady 14.8 to 15.0. Same with oil pressure which usually drops to around 10lb at idle. I get no warning lights, no SES light. Re-starts are instantaneous.
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    Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    Check your email. :-)
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    HenryHenry Member Posts: 1,106
    My guess is the fuel pump. the reason I say this is because you said that you just filled up the tank. When my pump went, I had just filled up my tank. The tech told me that the cold fuel will cause the pumps to burn out because of the sudden change in temperature from the cold fuel.

    Its kind of like turning on a light bulb. Bulbs normally blow when you turn them on because of the sudden surge of heat. They can burn out while on, but that is usually not how a bulb burns out.

    Now ask me how I know this.

    See my postings about getting stuck in the middle of the Hudson River (Holland Tunnel) cause my fuel pump went out without warning. Unfortunity, a fuel pump fails without warning. Its kind of like the car having a heart attack. Heart attacks come without warning.
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    garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    I'm not aware that the Aurora or any other car calls specifically for non-synthetic oil. Please tell us where that is.

    Also, a good synthetic does not volatilize as much and therefore does not burn off as much. What does burn, leaves little to no deposits as there are no impurities to be left behind. My 98 uses a little oil. With the M1 the oil usage decreased to about 3/4 to 1 quart at most in 3000 miles.

    I do agree with homer though - regular change intervals for regular driving and they are all good.

    This is a good article on oil that explains the performance qualities of oil and then documents how various oils compare. You can see how well synthetic oil does - a good one at least. For me the best feature is its flowability in the cold. This can be seen comparing two bottles in your garage. The more flowable, the more protection at start-up - especially in winter.

    http://www.f-body.org/oldfaq/html/tech/sect2.html#chooseoil
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    larryfllarryfl Member Posts: 214
    My '95 classic's in the shop again. It started with an intermittent skip under acceleration about 3-4 weeks ago when I happen to be taking my son to our mechanic to pick up his car. My first thought was the fuel pump - since I'm closing in on 100K w/ the original. BUT, the mechanic thought it more likely electrical from my description. (and I would agree)

    It got more frequent over the weeks until finally yesterday it developed a full-time severe skip. Towed to the shop today. We'll see.

    Even more worrisome, the rear main seal seems to be leaking (pouring) buckets of oil - and now I'm getting a burnt-oil smell in the car.

    Oh well, and all this after I just put on the new exhaust and then last week had her painted. Damn, she looks and sounds good!

    Gotta love these cars!
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    HenryHenry Member Posts: 1,106
    No need to put it on ebay.

    What do you think guys?

    Is he going to be the new SHOP KING?
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    rjs200240rjs200240 Member Posts: 1,277
    Larryfl said he had Dynomax mufflers installed, not a Corsa. Why don't you just break down and buy one? You obviously want it.
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    larryfllarryfl Member Posts: 214
    Amazing what a new set of plugs and wires will do for a car. All eight of each installed for $231. Delco replacements.

    Now if I can just find some way to gum up that leaking oil seal, I'll be back in high cotton.

    Oh yeah, the exhaust is Dynamax Super Turbos, not the corsa.

    GO BUCS!!!
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    garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    "back in high cotton" Never heard that one. But I like it.

    Henry - yeah, come on. Just do it. If you get a 99, you can transfer it to that car. Just keep the original (even cut up) and have it welded back together if you sell it. Or put the 99's original on the 95. It's really not loud.

    I think I sent you pictures of the installation. Let me know if I'm imagining this and never got anything. The pictures may help when discussing it with an exhaust shop (that works with 304 SS).
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    mindseye97mindseye97 Member Posts: 25
    Hey gang-

    My '97 continues to use about 1 quart of Mobil 1 about every 1000 miles. Looking at previous posts it seems I'm not alone. I was wondering if anyone has had success switching oil brands? She runs great and does not leak or burn oil visibly. This has been the case from when I bought it last year @ 60K miles to the current 73K miles. Not sure if its valve stem seals (no smoke on start up so probably not), deposits on rings keeping them from wiping the oil back (see caddyinfo.netgetgoing.com/howtooilfix.htm), etc?
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    garnesgarnes Member Posts: 950
    I don't know if this would help, but according to that oil article I posted, AMSOIL seems to resist volatilizing and thus burning more than any other oil. You can't buy it in stores. You have to buy it from a private distributor. You could probably find it easy on the web.

    I don't know, maybe you are loosing the oil for some other reason. 1 per 1000 is a bit annoying, but not the end of the world. If it is burning, at least it's M1 which supposedly doesn't leave any deposits to foul the engine.
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    ckirkpatrickckirkpatrick Member Posts: 25
    Does the '98 Aurora use a "lock-up" type torque converter?
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    hardestyhardesty Member Posts: 166
    The 4T80E Transaxle, used in all V8 Auroras, does have a "lock-up" converter. The torque converter clutch (TCC) can activate in 3rd and 4th gears. The action is so smooth that you need to look at the tach to see it engage or disengage.
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    pizza442pizza442 Member Posts: 110
    I am testing a claim that we might actually be overfilling the crankcase and that the excess burns off quickly through the PVC system. This info came out on the caddyinfo.com board from a caddy engineer that worked on the developement of the Northstar. Long story short, we need to make sure to read the dipstick correctly or we end up putting in too much oil when we think it is low, which burns off rapidly. The Northstar cyl. walls are honed " in a rather agressive pattern and process to ensure sufficient oil retention on the cyl. wall to keep the upper rings lubricated at high RPM", ie. the more aggressive the grooves, the more oil retained and the more consumed. (Ask any Ferrari owner about this!) As the honing stone wears over thousands of blocks, you get diff. oil consumption characteristics between engines. He says "the good news here is that the rings, pistons and cyl. wall will last virtually forever due to the oil reaching them". On the subject of oil capacity, he says the North. was designed for 7 quarts (add 1/4 for the filter). (I notice that the Caddy dealer puts in 7.5 in all their oil changes, including the Aurora.) Our friend goes on to say if we are checking it cold and filling it to the fill mark, we are overfilling it. His advice is check it hot (10 miles or so, engine off for a couple of minutes) and when you change/fill it, fill it with a KNOWN 7 quarts, check it hot and note the position on the dip stick. Don't add above this now known mark as the engine will "aerate the excess oil" out the PVC. "Many fill volume ref. account for a dry engine so this is why they may read higher. We put about 8.5 qts. in the engine at the factory for its first fill because it is dry." After the engine is "wetted" and all the nooks and crannies that trap oil are filled, 7 qts. is all that will remain in the sump. I stopped adding oil every time it seemed a qt low and let it get to the bottom of the stick. Still there after 2000 miles now' just touching and no warning indicators yet. I'm due for a change so I will measure how much oil comes out and try the 7 qt method next.
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    HenryHenry Member Posts: 1,106
    I think I beeen putting in about 8 or 9 per oil change. I need to check this with my mechanic, but I am sure it is about 9. This would be the same amount that he puts in his 2000 Deville
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    larryfllarryfl Member Posts: 214
    Henry, I'd have to agree with pizza442. I've always had 7 1/2 quarts put back in mine at oil changes.

    I have to say, though, that if dip-stick markings were so important they should have made one easier to read!!@#@&*
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