Honda CR-V vs Saturn VUE

varmit

Af_X - Thanks. I thought it was a bit odd that Saturn would dumb down the system that far. I think Healey is just showing his strong bias for full-time AWD again.

dindak

Don't think you will get much off a CR-V for quite some time. Demand will be strong and even at year end it's questionable. Honda dealers are pretty sticky with prices (at least in Ontario they are).

As for Vue pricing, a well equipped 2WD with VTi and power package comes in around C$25,500 freight in and a AWD will be just under C$28K. The cheapest CRV with auto would be C$28900 plus freight and air tax (so around C$29,800). Given I don't need AWD, a CR-V looks pretty expensive. Even with AWD, the prices are a little more comparable, bit CRV is still almost C$2K more.

I like the CR-V, but I've had bad experiences with Honda sales and service. Saturn is rated very high in these areas so I assume it can only be better. Still want to take another look at the Tribute/ Escape.

sdolven

First, I will say that I used to own a Saturn '93 SL2, and it ran flawlessly. My brother and sister owned Honda Accords. Flawless as well. So not much bias here.

But I have been talking w/the Saturn and Honda dealers in my area, getting (or rather trying to get, in the case of Honda) information on delivery, pricing, etc.

Saturn: As to be expected, very friendly and easy going; up front about delivery, availability, and very even handed when talking about the new CR-V.

Honda: Some of the lines they used to discourage me from even looking at the VUE (even after I told them I was a previous Saturn owner) - "Why would you want to buy a plastic car?", and "Can you trust Saturn with a SUV? They have only made sedans up till now". The most blatant line was "It rides on a car chassis. The Accord's, in fact".

I love Honda cars but I ABSOLUTELY HATE the way they treat customers. I never had a single problem with Saturn dealerships, and since I moved a bit, there were several. I honestly can't recall one single Honda dealership where I left happy with what I was told.

If these two vehicles are very similar (and on paper, they appear to be) Saturn will win with me hands down, solely due to dealership experience.

The Honda dealership also left me with the impression that they know people are looking at these two models side by side (since the RAV is too small and the Tribscape has Q issues)and are feeling the pressure, unlike when the first CRV debuted.

Just my opinion

dindak

I have had similar experiences with Honda dealers. Very arrogant sales people and poor service departments. I used to own an Accord and part of the reason I didn't go back to Honda was just because of those two points. Of course, it may be different elsewhere, you can't generalize.

Anyone taken delivery of a Vue yet?

carguy62

Motorweek will be reviewing the VUE on this weeks show. On line too I suppose.

varmit

A VUE, that is. The dealer down the road has at least one on display. I drove by last night and saw it parked up on a "mound" above the other cars in the lot. I only got a drive by glance, but my first impression was not as favorable as those I've gotten from the pics in magazines and on the Internet. The stance of the vehicle seems lower and the front end looked too much like an L series wagon. In fact, there were a few wagons parked next to it and the only way I could tell them apart was the rear quarter (which looked good).

Obviously, I need a closer look, but this quick glance makes me wonder about if the front fascia should have been a bit more bold.

dindak

Was it a 4 or a 6? What were your driving impressions?

I drove a 6 and still want to hear what the 4 bangers are like.

varmit

Driving impressions? Very familiar... but I was in my '99 CR-V. Sorry, I think you misread the post. I didn't get to drive it. I just saw one as I was driving by the dealershi...er... "retail center". I do hope to stop by tonight and give it a good inspection.

artdecho

i agree, varmit.....front end already looks dated, like the original small saturn....should have gone with lights similar to those on the new saturn coupe, for example......like the rear view and the hatch though.

varmit

In pictures, I thought that the front end looked okay. Typical of Saturn, but not bad. I need to give it a better look, but it just seemed too small and not "SUVish" enough for my tastes.

The RAV4 and CR-V both use large headlamps to give the front end a more truckish appearance. Other vehicles like the Forester and Escape use a blunt front end to get a more aggressive effect. The VUE has neither. I'm sure other folks will like it more, it just doesn't do anything for me.

varmit

Just got back from the Saturn dealer. Overall a decent experience. There's too much to post all at once, so here's the not-so-short list.

Likes: The engine (V6) is quiet and powerful. The sticker reports 19-25 mpg. Not too shabby for a V6. Front seats had plenty of leg room. Head room was good. *Might* be tight for me (6'1") with a moonroof. The gear selector and most controls were well laid out. It cornered flat and steering was light. It still felt like a tall vehicle, but was good enough. Each door closed with a solid thunk. The cargo organizer is a nice gimmick. Styling from the side and back is nice.

Indifferent: The front seats were nice and large, but felt odd. They just didn't fit my frame very well. Interior materials were neither good nor bad. The gauge cluster in front of the driver was easy to read, but nothing to write home about. Cargo space was adequate. The cargo floor height was a bit high, but has a nice squarish shape. The wheel wells do not intrude too badly. The seats fold flat enough, but not perfectly flat. A touch of wind noise. Front end styling. Not as bad as my impression from last night, but the front doesn't do anything for me.

Dislikes: The handle used to fold the rear seats flat is on the back of the seat. Rather hard to reach from the passenger doors. You can get it from the very back. The rear seats have adequate legroom, but the seats are too low to the floor. You have room for your legs, but your knees are up in the air. Panel gaps. Especially the big gaps where the side of the hood meets the front quarters. The brake pedal was stiff (not much travel), but the gas was loosey goosey. I had to press it way down to get a response. When I pressed hard, it got up and went, but I had to kick it a little. If I hadn't given it 3/4 pedal, I'd have thought it was a four banger. Steering was light, but I felt like I was driving a larger vehicle.

varmit

The Sales Manager spent a little time with me. I suspect that was partly because the salesman was new to the job (both were very friendly). He advised that VTi will not be available anytime soon. Here's his version of that story...

The VTi system operates on pressure. The pressure is provided by the engine. This is fine and dandy as long as the car is running. If it stalls while moving, the car will glide without any pressure in the VTi. This causes extensive damage. In his words, "It'll blow up". Kudos to the Sales Manager for being so honest. He expects that Saturn will offer a regular 4 speed automatic instead. His guess was sometime in late Spring or early Summer.

Take the story with a grain of salt. This is just a retail guy. I'm repeating it because it sounds plausible.

What does this mean? The only way to get a 4cyl is with the 5 speed and no AWD. That deserves repeating, IMHO. No AWD! An AWD with modest amount of goodies (power gizmos, ABS, CD, floor mats, and side airbags) will cost you 24K+ (US dollars). It's not a bad price, but it's not a good price either.

dindak

From the reviews I've read, the VTi seems to be getting good reviews and I have heard of no major tech glitches with it, just some extra testing. Maybe he is right, but maybe he just wanted you to buy a V6.

As for your review, much of it rings ok. I thought it was a good overall package and it will sell well. Keep in mind Honda has a 4 or 5 year head start in perfecting the CR-V. I think the Vue is an excellent first effort for Saturn.

I'm kind wondering if I should put off an SUV purchase for another 3 year lease. Great deals on some cars right now and our little girl doesn't take up much space (yet). My current lease can be broken with basically no penalty now if needed.

artdecho

I hadn't heard about it blowing up, Varmit, but I know it will be awhile before they roll it out.
V6's only for the first month or so and then the 4's will come online.....sounds like it may be a bit of a wait for the AWD/VTi. One thing I did read (which made me kinda nervous about it) was that GM engineers hadn't figured out the service intervals for the VTi yet and how often transmission flushes should be done or if they should be done at all.....you'd think that would've been figured out long ago, but then it is GM, famous for doing their product development only after the vehicle comes to market.

artdecho

i also seem to remember reading that the four won't fit with a conventional automatic, that's why they went with the VTi.....a more compact design......so at least that part of the sales guy's explanation seems wrong.......don't think it's possible to do a four with a conventional auto. (remember, it's an inline four, a longer engine than the v6)

varmit

Dindak - I liked it. I know the list of dislikes was pretty long, but a number of them are little things. The indifferent list are just things that I noted because they were odd or didn't leave any impression at all. There's more to each list, but, as you can tell, I'm wordy enough as it is. :-) If you're going to look at other types of vehicles, you might like the Matrix or Vibe.

More on the VTi: One of the other things that I was told is that the VTi is an off-the-shelf product. It's been developed by a European company for general application. It was not designed for the VUE and Saturn has been working on making it fit (mechanically speaking). Among the problems mentioned was the stalled engine and the egnine's torque. CVT type transmissions can only handle so much torque. Maybe I'll call another dealer and see if I can verify some of this.

The manager did say that they will have the VTi for another car as well. He was probably talking about the Ion. But the way he talked about the VUE made it sound like it was a lost cause for quite some time and may not ever happen. The impression I got was that they hoped to have it worked out for April or May. Otherwise they would scrap the idea and get another transmission. They were able to work a manual 5 speed into the chassis along with the I4. An automatic would be slightly larger, but I have a hard time believing that it cannot fit.

Now, as Dindak noted, these guys may have just been trying to sell me the V6. But I made it pretty clear that I wanted the I4. When we priced out the I4 (VTi) at $21,770, I made smiley faces. When he gave me the $24,125 damage for the V6, I grimmaced and starting talking about the 2002 CR-V. In other words, I was clear that the VTi was a deal breaker, yet he continued to tell me bad things about it.

dindak

artdecho is right, these transmissions are not new technology but applying it to an SUV is new. I think a conventional 4 or 5 speed would fit (it's not that much bigger), but the performance will suffer a little. The local Saturn guy drove a VTi and was very impressed with the smoothness and acceleration. He was quite the opposite of varmit's guy in saying it will be worth the wait.

I guess if you can wait and don't want the V6, spring is not that far off. If you need an SUV soon, buy an Escape or a CR-V (2 best alternatives IMO).

artdecho

Here's the link where I remember reading about the size constraints of the engine/tranny combo in the VUE......has quite a bit of info re: the VTi in general.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/previews/02vue.htm

artdecho

Check out Ward's Auto (wardsauto.com) and search under "VTi"......the link wouldn't post because it was too long but in the article,the key line is:
"Moreover, VTi will require a special mineral-based fluid and possibly unique service intervals."
Another article I read went further, saying GM engineers hadn't yet determined what those service intervals would be.
Most of the VTi driveability reports have been quite positive, as Dindak points out, with the exception of when you "floor it" and the engine holds at 5,600 Rpm or so.......not so bad if it was a Honda four but I imagine a Saturn would be loud and thrashy

dindak

Actually, the 2.2L Ecotec is pretty smooth and quiet. It's not the best, but it's quite good and a big improvement from the old QUAD4 days.

Take a L-series for a drive and see for yourself.

varmit

Those are good links. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens with the VTi. Does any one know why they don't offer AWD with the manual? I would think that if they cannot get the VTi working on time, they would invest in that alternative. No doubt the V6 will account for the largest number of sales, but the lack of a 4 cyl AWD model will put Saturn at a disadvantage price-wise.

afk_x

I have driven the Accord 4 cyl and the L 2.2 4 cyl back to back.

The only difference is the that the L is a little bit louder and has a little bit more pull.

dindak

Hopefully Saturn can get through the technical problems.

It seems to me Saturn rushed the Vue project a little. That's not to say it will be a bad truck, but not having the full line up available off the start and delaying the launch of the truck a couple of time certainly gives you the feeling they were rush to get this to market. I suspect mother GM waited longer than expected to give the project the green light.

I'm likely not buying till spring so I can wait for the VTi.

varmit

I dunno. I think that Saturn's timing was okay. Maybe they would've been better off releasing before the '02 CR-V, but that's not too big a deal. My suggestion would've been to keep the VTi all hush-hush and just release the V6 automatic and I4 5 speed. Wait until the VTi looked like it was going to be perfected, then start making noise about it.

Honda has plans for a IMA hybrid CR-V if the hybrid Civic takes off. However, they aren't making promises until they see fit to put the plan in motion. IMHO, this is a better way to go.

dindak

I agree. The VTi promise was a risky move and now Saturn may pay the price if they can't get it working in production soon. The local dealer says they will have them in January, but I'm not holding my breath.

I would like to try out a 5-speed when they have one. If I can convince my wife, I would love to have one. I miss having a manual transmission and it would save money also!

varmit

VUE information. Not really a review, but it provides another in depth description of the VTi.

http://edmunds.yellowbrix.com/pages/edmunds/Story.nsp?story_id=26307073&ID=edmunds&scategory=Auto&

dindak

Cool, thanx.

apatia

Has anyone made a decision and purchased one or the other? I'm having some serious problems deciding b/c I have some issues with both of them.

My CR-V issues: No ABS available on LX. Too much standard equipment on the EX - I don't need/want it, so I'm reluctant to pay for it. No armrest on 5-speed. Rear door swing opens, Spare mounted on rear door. Pompous Honda sales people. So-so service.

My Vue issues: Maybe somwhat underpowered (143 hp). A loaded V6 is expensive w/ "options" that are standard on CR-V (ABS, airbags, 6 CD). No way to haggle on price. So-so emissions.

A friend commented to me that I should be entirely (mostly) happy w/ a vehicle for the money I'm spending on it ($20-25K). Though I know no vehicle is absolutely perfect, I agree with my friend.

On one forum (not edmunds), someone commented that comparing the VUE with the CR-V was like comparing apples and oranges. I disagree. They are vehicles in the same class that have similar dimensions and features. They are competing against each other. Comparison of the two in valid and inevitable.

varmit

I agree. Saturn had the CR-V locked firmly in their sites when they designed the VUE. The idea was to out-Honda the guys at Honda. They even bought a dozen CR-V's to use as test mules for the CVT transmission.

Saturn may be late to the game, but they have the experience of seeing what succeeded and what has failed.

dindak

It's a tuff call. The ABS should have been standard on the Vue, I agree. Both vehicles have their pluses and minuses and I think sales for both will be strong. I still have not seen a 4 cyl Vue which is what I will buy if I get one. For me, the CR-V is pretty much out now as I am reluctant to pay for AWD I don't want / really need.

dindak

Where did everyone go here?

logic1

For those of you who have not already, check out the Saturn Vue forum. Today afk_x posted a link to a detailed comparison and contrast of the Vue, CRV and Escape. The Vue and the CRV came out pretty close with differences that will be important to people looking to buy. Both came out ahead of the segment leading Escape.

dindak

Unfortunately of the 3, VUE is the only one to offer a 2WD version with auto.

Of course, there are other possibilities. ;-)

logic1

I think for just that reason my wife will wind up getting a Vue later this Spring. I was also interested to see an article in auto.com which reported that more women than men (more than 50%) prefer and suv over an automobile. This should bode well for both the Vue and the CRV, and maybe a lot of the new suv-like product finding its way to market.

carguy62

Unless I am misreading you are saying only the VUE can be equipped as 2WD with an auto transmission. If you are referring to a CVT true, but:

The 2WD CR-V can only be had with an auto transmission.

dindak

Not sure about the U.S., but a 2WD 02 CR-V is not available in Canada. Not sure why, but there isn't a lot I can do about it. While we do get snow here, I have never felt the need for 4WD or AWD system.

2WD VUE is available with CVT and 5-speed here.

carguy62

Should have looked at the flag. I do know the CR-V in Canada has a few things we don't get here, which makes it that much more appealing, IMO. But if you don't need 4WD....

dindak

No problem. I guess some manufacturers think that because most of Canada gets snow in the winter that everyone wants 4WD. While most people do want 4WD, you will definitely loose sales if you don't sell 2WD.

onelucky7

Let me share my experience . . . I was extremely thorough in my search for a new SUV. I read Consumer Reports and Edmunds and any other reviews I could find in car magazines and from owners. I had a Saturn SL-1 and was quite pleased with the Saturn after-sale experience. The service is outstanding! I outgrew the little SL-1 however and wanted an SUV or something larger and sporty looking with limited off road capability. (Still being single, I was NOT looking for a mommy-mobile.) I looked hard at the CR-V but was put off by the 4 cylinder engine, the limited cargo space and the priciness as well as the uppitiness (sp) of the sales staff at the Honda dealer. I also tested and even took home the Jeep Liberty for a day. Again cargo room was extremely limited. The ride was rough, even with the front wheel independent suspension. If you aren't tackling the Rubicon most every day, you really don't need the rough feel of this one. I also drove the Tribute and Escape. I was least impressed with them. They feel cheap inside and the door handle felt like it would break in my hand if yanked too much. The driver's seat was VERY uncomfortable. So feeling dejected over my options, I decided to head over to Saturn and search for a used SUV. When I pulled up, there was a brand-new Orange Vue out front. It was stunning looking with beige interior. Once I test drove it, (probably when I first saw it actually) I knew it was ME. I bought it that day and drove it off the lot. I will separately post what I think of the first 800 miles on the VUE Board but I can tell you it's mostly good.

carguy62

Well you are the targetted demographic for Saturn so it makes sense that it is right for you. Enjoy.

akekesi

Hi. I've been following this discussion and find myself in the same dilemma as many of you. I currently own a '92 Isuzu Amigo, which has been a wonderful car since I purchased it. I've only had one major repair since I bought it and have over 178,000 miles on it, but it's time for me to get a new vehicle. -I have lots of little things about to go wrong (as expected with older/high-mileage cars) and I've been looking for a slightly larger SUV (specially now that I have a family, plus 2 large dogs), with 4 doors, and better gas mileage (this is my main commuter vehicle). My search has led me to a cross-roads where I have narrowed down the field to the VUE and the CRV. I have test driven both, and find the rides to be very similar. (I felt that both rides were very car-like. MUCH BETTER than the Rav4. Did NOT like the ride of that vehicle! -And remember, I have an Amigo, which doesn't have a very smooth ride either.) Acceleration for both was about what I expected for a 4 cylinder. I have to agree that the VUE 6 cyl. seemed rather sluggish to me. Aesthetically, I find the CRV much more subdued. I like the sportier look of the VUE, but looks aren't everything. I did like the double-folding backseat in the CRV, which is what my Amigo currently has, and I have found to be very useful. However, I don't care for the swing-out tailgate (again, that's what my Amigo has, and it can be a hassle when in tight parking spaces). The VUE's lift-up gate is much more practicle for my uses. Gas mileage between both 4 cyls are very similar, which as a potential commuter vehicle make them both equally attractive to me.

Now, here's where I see some differences. One of the options I want (moonroof) is only available in the high-end CRV model (EX). I have also noted that other options too are only available in the CRV EX. That vehicle is only offered in an AWD mode which, in turn, lowers the gas mileage. The VUE, however, has a moonroof option for all their models. -Which has me leaning towards the FWD 4 cyl. VUE. This leads me to the helicopter effect, which some of you might find interesting...

When I test drove the VUE (both 4 cyl. and 6 cyl. models), I happened to notice a highly irritating noise that sounded like a helicopter descending upon the vehicle. I then realized that it happened when the moonroof was the only window fully open, and I drove at a constant 35 mph. I was able to reproduce the effect in both models. The salesperson (who was in the car with me) called it a "helicopter effect" that sometimes happens when the amount of airflow entering an opening is equal to the airflow exiting. We were able to stop the sound either by going under or over 35 mph, opening other windows, or slightly closing the moonroof. Anyhow, I had never experienced such an effect before and thought some of you might be interested in hearing about it.

As far as my decision between VUE and CRV, I'm still torn. I'm thinking about waiting until the VTi engine comes out before making a final decision. -my 2 cents...

varmit

The "helicopter effect" is normal for any car with a moonroof. Nice name for it, BTW. Different cars will have this happen at different speeds. In my '86 Cavalier it started at about 40 mph, but would go away at 45. The fix is to crack open another window slightly. This evens out the airflow just a bit.

maynardf1

You are one of the first people I've read about who has driven the 5-sp, 4-cyl vue. How was it? Responsive? And what about the shifter and clutch? I've ordered a 5-sp vue, but wasn't able to drive one because all the dealer has so far is 6-cyl awd. thanks.

dindak

Both VUE and CR-V are good vehicles and I don't think you will go wrong either way. Still no VTi models to try and the dealer said they won't be in till June from what he hears. Sounds like if you want a VUE in the next 2-3 months and want 4WD, you have to go with the 6cyl model.

nicevue

I purchased my Saturn Vue a week ago. It's an orange one. I love it. I did experience the helicopter effect. My husband's BMW 323i also does this at certain times...
I got rid of this sound by opening the driver's window and the passenger's window slightly.

I get a lot of compliments, and am getting good gas mileage... the mpg has gone up steadily since I've started driving the car.

I am really please with my purchase and the customer service I've received so far at Saturn.

akekesi

Well, it's good to hear that the helicopter effect is normal. -Never had a moonroof, and looking forward to eventually having one.

As far as the standard transmission, I will first admit that I was weened on automatics, so I tend to lean that way. However, I can drive standards and the VUE really impressed me. I found it very easy to drive, and the power really impressed me. Luckily, I had a pretty cool salesperson along for the test drive who said, "There's a straight away coming up. Once we go around the next bend, shift it into 3rd and punch it!" And that's exactly what I did. And that little 4-banger moved a lot faster than I expected! The other thing that impressed me was the range 3rd gear had. Again, even though all my instincts wanted to shift to 4th, the salesperson told me not to shift so that I could see 3rds full range. Again, I'm not much of a standard transmission fan, but I was impressed. So, I have a feeling if you've already ordered one, you'll be happy.

Now if only I can get a VTi to test drive!

dindak

Saturn has a 5-speed "sport package" out now in the US where you get the power package, aluminum wheels and a sunroof all for the price of a base 5-speed. You should check it out. I hope that deal comes to Canada as I will be all over it!

duke35

Yes I also hope it is available in Canada soon.
I was gonna wait for the 2003 to let the kinks out of the assembly line, but, the sport package I price at $C 3200 of free options. I wouldn't wait until the fall.
Is there an email address to ask about promotions at Saturn? and future improvement for 2003 models?

dindak

There is probably a contact address at www.saturncanada.com.

teegee22

Test drove the VUE, CrV and Tribute this weekend. No comparison what so ever. The VUE has the others beat totally. Room, handling, ride, and noise were by far the best of the three.
The Tribute drove most like a truck and the wind noise on the highway was very annoying. The CrV was was not nearly as comfortable as the VUE and it was also very noisy on the interstate.
The VUE was by far the most comfortable, rode and handled the best, and definately the quietest.
Hope to be a VUE owner in the next couple of weeks.