Subaru Legacy/Outback Wagons Maintenance & Repair

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Comments

  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    Tough to compare, but my last 4 FWD cars - 3 Mercs and a Chevy all went through front pads between 22-28K. The rears on the other hand, including the 94 Sable with 4 wheel disk, all had good rears until the mid 50's.

    Price still seems steep.

    Larry
  • jfljfl Member Posts: 1,399
    Mail order Subaru pads (1stsubaruparts.com) were $49.50 per axle for my 2000 Legacy. Changed at 70k miles. Fronts still had lots of lining, rears were almost completely worn.

    They are a dealer and accepted my Subaru bucks... so very little cash out of pocket. 8~)

    Jim
  • ttamatrudattamatruda Member Posts: 10
    Dear C hunter and ateixera,
    thanks for replying to my clutch questions
    Craig, thanks for the TSB. Was your problem with clutch shudder or premature failure? Who did you work with at SOA?
    Juice, my concern is that the clutch failed at 40K (2nd clutch in the car), and it spent its first month smelling like it was burning up. Do you know if there is any way to tell if it was defective going in?
    Thanks, Tom
  • sebberrysebberry Member Posts: 148
    Here's a question:

    We know that over-tightening the wheel nuts can contiribute to warped rotors.

    However, does the over-tightening warp them right away, or make the more prone to warping when driving?

    I haven't checked the torque of the nuts, but after having the rotors replaced again, they started feeling warped very soon after replacement.

    Comments would be appreciated.
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    Anyone out there know if Subaru uses counter weights attached at the rear of the driveshaft near the rear diff to balance the shaft?

    The reason I'm asking is that the wife's 03 OB wagon has recently picked up a bit of a howl that wasn't there for the last 8 months or so.

    I've seen American cars that use weights and when they throw a weight it can cause everything from vibration to howling to premature rear end failure.

    I looked under the wagon today when I rotated the tires and changed the oil. It looks like there's a spot at the rear of the shaft where a weight "used" to be - now its just a rectangular rusty spot outlined with some kind of gray material (epoxy, weld? ).

    Any info appreciated.

    Thanks

    Larry
  • lfdallfdal Member Posts: 679
    I've heard two - first one is its a gradual process that can take a few weeks - even months. Which is why re-torquing shortly after the shop gives the car back seems to prevent it.

    Second one - and it seems this was the case on my Sables is that when the rotors get nice and hot, and you quench the metal in a big puddle or two, the rotor will warp reasonably quick.

    I have no idea if either of these theories is valid. I'm partial to the second one only because it seemed to line up with two of my Sables.

    Larry
  • lovermontlovermont Member Posts: 13
    I backed up the link for the rain guard photo you sent and am now checking out some fantastically cool shots on what I'm guessing is your work?

    (one of the reasons I need my rain guards is so I can view the outdoors without the wet-window obstruction, and see what may be worthy of taking shots myself!)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I wonder if you saw this Headline:

    "Subaru Adding Seven-Seater in 2005

    The largest Subaru ever will join the crossover fray in the U.S. in mid-2005, according to Automotive News. The industry weekly reports that Subaru is planning and engineering a new model capable of carrying seven passengers atop a new car platform equipped with all-wheel drive. The power plant will be a 250-horsepower flat six. The new vehicle is said to be more European-looking, and could be priced above $30,000, the report says. The new Subaru will be built alongside other American-market models in Lafayette, Ind."

    Steve, Host
  • idahodougidahodoug Member Posts: 537
    Vermont,

    Point your car at a wall from about a carlength and toss a towel over each headlight so you can see what the foglight pattern is. If you see a sharp horizontal line below which is light and above which there is no light, then they're reasonably designed. Likely not, but worth knowing before you embark on replacing them.

    One factor against you is all factory lights are regulated by archaic US regulations and they probably are ineffective patterns. Another of these regs requires that you cannot use your fogs alone, which means they are useless in real fog/snow because the glare from the headlights would ruin operation of even the finest foglamps.

    If they're a reasonable pattern, I'd find a way to run them without the headlamps and replace the bulb with a yellow bulb if you insist on having yellow lamps. Yellow lamps are indeed superior in the worst conditions though they often have lower output simply because making a white light yellow involves some type of filter. The most effective I've used are the PIAA Ion Crystal bulbs for amber/yellow output - excellent on snow. Also, check out rallylights.com and see the Hella Yellow Star bulbs for a bit smaller pocketbook whack.

    If the beam pattern is indeed crap, then consider replacing them with a set of Hella 200FF lamps, which would fit nicely in there. I have a set and they're outstanding. Not cheap, but neither is hitting a deer or worse.

    IdahoDoug
  • lovermontlovermont Member Posts: 13
    Thanks for the info on the 7 seater, Mike. I wonder, is the basic concept behind its design more closely related to something like the VW's, or, dare I say it, a Minivan-type get-up?
    Seven passengers is great for families and such, but I'm more interested in the functionality of the ride as a multi-purpose trekking vehicle.

    Are there any photos available to see?

    IdahoDoug-thanks for those tips, I'm gonna check some things out that you suggested. I hadn't considered the replacement of just the bulbs of those fogs, so that may be an option.

    Which reminds me...the manual suggested dealer-replacement of the fogs because they thought it a bit tricky...haven't looked at it myself, but I reckon it's nothing I can't do myself. (unless there's something technical involved that I can't foresee)

    Anyway, thanks for the help again, everyone.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Tom: the problem with my parents car was the shudder/judder problem, but it seems to be endemic to many 2000-2002 Subarus in colder climates. I owned that car for 22,000 miles (in Virginia) and never had problems with the clutch. However, it became an issue after my parents bought the car and brought it to Connecticut. After many months, it was unbearable and a problem even in warm weather. It was impossible to drive smoothly (made every driver appear to be a clutch newbie) and the car would shake violently. When the clutch was replaced, they also replaced the flywheel because it had "hotspots". I'm not surprised -- I can see how the shudder/judder problem would also ruin the flywheel.

    Like I said earlier, if they replaced your clutch with the same problematic parts, the problem was likely to re-occur no matter what -- it's a problem with the previous clutch material design and can be exacerbated by climate. If your new clutch used the revised material and design, you're probably going to be OK. My 2003 WRX had the new clutch design from the factory, and seems real strong. Then again, it only has 4000 miles and I do live in a warmer climate!

    After e-mailing Patti and asking her advice, I had my parents call in to Subaru 1-800 and start a case. I don't know who they worked with there (it was a guy), but they were very impressed with the whole experience -- my Mom said the guy was clearly trying to make things right and was on top of the situation. I've also talked to people at the Subary 1-800 number, and they were very responsive, called me back to follow up, etc...

    By the way, it's my opinion that you should expect to get at least 80,000-120,000 miles out of a clutch that has not been abused. This is a very simple and time-proven part of automobiles, and other than the judder issue (which affected several manufacturers by the way) clutches are pretty damn reliable. The longest I've ever seen a clutch last was 240,000 miles in a friend's very old Toyota.

    Sebastian: as far as I know, over-tightened lugs start to warp the rotors as soon as the brakes heat up, but it takes continued use to really become a problem (as in weeks of normal driving). It will definitely get worse as time goes on. If you were able to re-torque your lugs soon after you got the car back from the shop, you'd probably prevent the whole problem.

    I have to take my WRX in for a state inspection next week, and they usually pull a wheel to look at the brakes. I plan on installing wheel locks, so I'll do it and re-torque all the lugs after the inspection.

    Craig
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    I've been reading these messages for a while. Great community! But now I have a question/problem.

    I have a 2002 OB 5spd, 25k miles. It's always had the classic "ticking" sound when cold. But over the past 2 weeks or so, the ticking has sounded closer to rattling when first started in colder weather and after about 30 seconds it's down to the usual ticking. The ticking is now more pronounced, that is when the temp is 45 deg outside, it ticks like it did last year when it was 15 deg.

    Now today, once the engine warmed up fully, I noticed that when I accelerated through the gears the engine got LOUD. Only when accelerating at 1/2 throttle or more. But it wasn't ticking, it was like it might sound if the engine had 100k miles on it or like there was a small hole in the exhaust or something like that. Very light acceleration was fine. I have an appointment to bring it in to the dealer on wed, but I don't know what to make of this. I've never had a subaru before, but I've always done maintenance on my cars myself. Any help in educating me on this would be appreciated! :)
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    I've seen many posts on the clutch shuddering. From my experience I've seen this on a number of manufacturers (Honda specifically comes to mind). I don't think it's a defect and you CAN learn to avoid it. I can make mine shudder almost any time I want if I want but I also avoid it by balancing the gas/clutch such that it doesn't happen.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tom: I think yours is a case for 800-SUBARU3. Ask them if they can at least help out, given the circumstances.

    Sebastian: with overtorqued lugs, I think you could warp the brakes rather quickly if you did any hard braking or the rotors warmed up during a long down hill stretch. It's hard to say.

    -juice
  • K9LeaderK9Leader Member Posts: 112
    NYGreg asked:

    Don't understand your statement "Only people who live in NYC drive with all the windows up all the time."

    I have no idea what it means, either. I didn't say it -- it was just part of something said by someone else and to which I was responding. I was responding to the part about the lack of availability of window vents/guards.

    K9Leader
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    I lived in the city from 1982 to 1990. Come to think of it, I always drove around with the windows up (or cracked just a sliver). Didn't want someone walking up to my car at a red light and doing who-knows-what to the inside of my car.

    Come to think of it, now that I live in the suburbs I still ride around w/ the windows up (or cracked). I guess I crack the window more in the suburbs - less chance of someone walking up and....

    LOL!

    I miss driving in the city! Driving in the suburbs is so boring. I always tell my wife I'd like to retire as a livery driver in the city... She says I'm nuts...

    Ralph
  • slickdogslickdog Member Posts: 225
    Many of the discussions I've seen on rotor warping that include experienced racers/mechanics usually settle on the theory that heat is not necessarily the cause, but rather that rapid cooling is the culprit. So it seems that the "puddle" theory described above may actually have merit.

    Given that, I also believe it is conceivable that one could warp a set of rotors rather quickly, possibly even during just one outing in the vehicle with the lug nuts over-tightened, under the right conditions. This probably depends on how tolerant the rotors are to the effects of heating/cooling (as some certainly do seem worse than others).

    There does also seem to be a common belief that one should avoid braking hard just prior to parking a vehicle then applying the hand brake, to avoid not only rapid cooling but uneven cooling.
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    This is probably a dumb question, but have you checked the oil recently? What kind of oil do you use?

    Craig
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    I changed the oil 1000 miles ago. I checked it 2 weeks ago when the ticking started souding like rattling for 30 seconds on cold start. No loss. I also checked it 3 days ago. No loss.

    When I changed the oil, I filled the oil to be between the 2 notches on the dipstick. Almost exactly 50/50 between them. Usually I have ended up right at the top because it takes less oil than I expect (my last car was a 6cyl Dodge Shadow). After 2 weeks of "rattling" I decided to add a little more to bring it to 25/75 (closer to the high mark, obviously). This morning, there was less chatter on start, but now I have the other sound. On further thought - could it be that some connector on the exhaust system is separating when hot? Are there any spring-loaded connections on the exhaust system? Such that when I increase the exhaust pressure, it forces the expansion open and I hear the new noise? Maybe it's not related at all, but just coincidental that it happened today.

    I use and have always used 10w-40.
  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Yup. That's my work. Thanks for the compliment.

    As for the fogs... on my 01 Legacy they are not too difficult to remove. You have to fiddle with the splash guard in the wheel well to get access to the bolts. But other than that they are easy to pull. I was going to replace mine with Hellla MicroDE fogs but have yet to get around to it.

    bit
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I would consider a lighter oil than 10w-40 for cool weather use. Even though it begins with 10, 10w-30 will pour easier when cold (narrower range oils tend to be more 'true' to the full spread), or 5w-30.

    Steve
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    Thanks for the different oil suggestions - I understand those differences. What I don't understand is why there's so much noise this year compared to the very cold temperatures last winter, with the oil grade remaining constant. The variable ends up being the engine and I want to know why the change.
  • ttamatrudattamatruda Member Posts: 10
    Juice, I have been brickwalled by 1800Subaru3, and by the midAmerica subaru team.
    Very disappointing, given that the clutch which burnt out spent its first month smoking and smelling. Also, disappointing, because the DSOM offered to warranty the clutch against premature failure. Finally, disappointing because Subaru fails to acknowledge the large experience of clutch problems, reported on this board, on Vmag, and on archived discussions over the last 2 years.
    I cannot recommend this car, or its support, any longer.
    TA
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    I'm aware of your case and I'm sorry we cannot help you with this problem. Please understand that because there are posts and discussions related to the clutch assembly, not every clutch failure is related to issues that are written about. The DSOM that inspected your vehicles clutch assembly was very thorough.

    Once again, I'm sorry we could not help with this situation. As I've posted before, I do not think it's appropriate to post the details from our records. If you are not clear on the reasons for the denial of assistance, you can call the Rep. at 1-800-SUBARU3 for more information.

    Thanks.

    Patti
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    It would be a good idea to have the dealer check the noise out. It's always prudent to get it on record. Even if they cannot find the problem or duplicate it, having a repair order written is good documentation that you tried to address the issue early on.

    While the noise might not be indicative of a future failure, it can't hurt to have the check it out. If you run into a problem with doing that, please call 1-800-SUBARU3. A Rep. can work with your dealer to make sure everything is checked appropriately.

    Thanks!

    Patti
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, I'm pretty good at acronyms, but what's DSOM? Dealer service something manager?

    -juice
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    It's Dealer Service Operations Manager.

    Patti
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    3 out of 4 ain't bad! ;-)

    -juice
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    My apologies for quoting you incorrectly. I think it is rude when people (not you) knock other cities/countries, particularly when it is done out of ignorance. FWIW NYC's crime rate (per capita) is very low compared to other major cities around the world. Just a sensitive point with me.

    Greg
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    Thanks Patti. It is at the dealer as I type. I had it already scheduled for the recall so I just added the engine noise and the "exhaust sound". We'll see what the results are in a few hours. It seems that Subaru engines are quirky. The dealer and I talked a bit about the problems I noted and if his early analysis is correct, then I'll be surprised at just how sensitive they are to minor things.

    nygreg - I'm from upstate and agree that NYC has a relatively low crime rate. I've had the misfortune of being to a number of cities, but NYC and Chicago seem the best to me. Mexico City was absolutely frightening.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I got pickpocketed once in Mexico City on the subway, but never felt particularly uncomfortable there.

    Driving around NYC is probably scarier, knowing that Paisan is pulling a trailer at 80 plus out there, LOL.

    Steve, Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If someone has not visited since the 80s, then they haven't seen all the progress made. I found NYC safe even very late at night, this mostly during visits I paid in the late 90s.

    -juice
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    As a host family for foreign exchange students, I often have to give the "grand tour" to visiting kids and their families. After spending time in Tokyo in the '80's, I found it difficult to be proud of NYC during the late '80's / early '90's. How could you compare Tokyo with its 1-2 handgun deaths per year (and spotlessly clean) to NYC?

    But times do change. Tokyo and Osaka have felt the ill effects of the Asian economic downturn. I was saddened by some of what I saw last year. And in the mean time, Rudy G. and a strong economy lifted NYC to unprecedented heights. No, they are not at the same level, but in the past few years I have taken pride in showing off the city 80 miles south of my home.

    Sorry for the way off-topic ramblings.... My OBW is doing just fine, thank you....

    Steve
  • nine51nine51 Member Posts: 77
    May be a little late to comment on this, but every Subaru I've owned, (and for that matter my Grand Caravan ES) have had the factory fog light adjustment set way too low. As someone suggested, pull the car up to a flat surface (wall, garage door, etc.) and throw a towel or something over the headlights and see where the fog lights beam pattern falls. Most of mine were aimed about 2 ft in front of the car. On the Legacy, remove the plastic splash guards under the bumper, the adjustment screws / bolts are there, just a little hard to get to. Crank them up a little.

    I re-adjusted the fogs on my WRX and the wifes Legacy GT, and they have much better patterns than most of the junk sold out there today as "fog lights". Of course if you go with a good Hella, it might be better, but try aiming the OEM lights first. The factory fogs have plastic lenses that might be a little more forgiving of rocks.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    fibber2 - you must be VERY close to where I grew up. I lived about 60 miles north of the city.

    steve - Driving in NYC is nothing compared to MXC (IMHO). I've been to both recently and MXC is scary. You have to stop at the lights even if they're green. Even the taxis stop there (not the green VWs). A relative of mine had a co-worker's car robbed and then stolen while he just barely got away himself. No thanks.

    OBW status: got it back from the dealer.
    1. The valve tensioner belt was loose, causing the excessive noise when cold. Sounded normal again this morning.
    2. The "exhaust noise" was caused by the air filter housing being seated incorrectly at it's bottom connection (my fault). Service manager diagnosed this on the spot when I told him about it.
    3. Recall went fine.
    4. They checked my brakes and replaced the front pads because they were worn. This was not at my request, but was quite cool of them to do.

    No charge for anything. Well done by them. Very friendly service staff (and a cute cashier).
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Cool, glad everything was fixed and rather harmless. You know, #1 and #2 on your list have come up in discussion here before, so we're not doing a good job diagnosing problems these days! I had a loose timing belt and loose air filter housing do the exact same thing on another car (not Subaru).

    What dealer do you use? Sounds like they are on the ball.

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good to hear about service like that. If you're in the DC area, I'd like to know what dealer it was.

    -juice
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    Small world...I grew up in Spackenkill (~70 mi. no. of NYC and now live in Yorktown Hgts ~ 35 mi. no. of NYC) I lived in Kobe in 1980 (college) and visited Tokyo for 3 days - saw 1 "street person" the whole time there - he was a sake drunk (besides the ladies of the night). Everything was spotless, orderly, crime-free. Want to go back some day to see the changes, but it is soooo expensive...

    2001 LLBean just turned 50K today!!!! Flawlessness (new word)continues (knock on plastic wood).

    Ralph
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Public transportation is so good in both spots, I'd leave the Outback at home.

    Steve, Host
  • zman3zman3 Member Posts: 857
    I hate replacing the air filter on my 98 Outback. I always have a heck of a time getting it back together without bloodying the knuckles.

    The oil filter and drain plug on the other hand could not be placed in a more friendly location.
  • nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    I had the pleasure of visiting Japan a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, it was only for a few days on business. So civil it blew my mind. I was fighting with the hotel staff over who would carry my bags (me or them). Very friendly. Got to ride the bullet train too. Sorry OT.

    Greg
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Dutchess County - Town of Beekman (Hopewell Junction post office).
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    The dealer is Goldstein Subaru. They are in Albany, NY. I was hesitant to buy from them because 15 years ago I talked with them and they were a stereotypical car dealership that you wouldn't trust. My father bought his 2000 from them and said they did a good job. When I was looking for my 2002 (first Subaru) I talked to them with his recommendation and despite my stubbornness (is that a word?). They showed respect for me when I was negotiating with them and that means as much to me as giving me the price I asked. I never trade, but just for fun I opened the subject up on another dealer. He asked if I was making a trade - but he wouldn't tell me what my trade was worth until I decided on a new car because the car I chose would change the value of my trade. What's up with that? Talk about not respecting me.
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    My LLBean just turned 50K. I noticed a strange sound coming (I think) from the rear right of the car. When I turn the steering wheel to the left - over a 1/2 turn - I get a scraping sound like metal on metal. Once I straighten the car, sound goes away. Doesn't happen when I turn right and doesn't happen when standing still - need to be going over 5 mph.

    So, not power steering? Wheel bearing - but sounds like metal scraping on a rotor? Happens when not braking.

    Anyone with similar experience???

    Thanks in advance,

    Ralph
  • ozman62ozman62 Member Posts: 229
    Ralph, your symptom sounds like what has happened to me a couple of times. I have a '98 Forester, and on more than one occasion, I have gotten a pebble lodged between the front brake rotor and the inner rotor shield. This can make a horrific racket, sometimes it sounds like the driveline bearings are all seizing at the same time. However, in my case, the sound was obviously emanating from the front of the car, and braking would change the noise ,or make it go away temporarily. See if you can isolate the sound, it could be a similar problem.
    HTH, Owen
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    Doesn't appear to be related to braking, but I'll try turning and braking at the same time to see if the sound changes. Thanks,

    Ralph
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Could still be the brakes -- the pads are always in contact with the discs. Some brake related noises will actually go away when you apply the brakes but be there otherwise.

    Are the rear pads still in good shape?

    Craig
  • slickdogslickdog Member Posts: 225
    Sometimes rusty rotors can cause that sort of noise. I've not experienced it in our OB, but a couple of my other cars have done it. When a rotor begins to rust significantly on the outside edge, it expands and begins to flake apart, and can rub against the backing plate if it's in the rear of the car, producing a scraping sound.

    In this case the sound usually seems to be more noticeable in places like parking lots, while going slowly and turning sharply which can bring the rotors just a wee bit closer to the backing plates and produce more noise.

    A visual inspection of the rotors will clue you in rather quickly if this is the problem, and if so you can easily chisel away the loose scale. Of course if the rust appears to be affecting enough of the rotor(s) that it's expanding underneath the edges of the pads, you'll want to consider obtaining replacements.

    The foreign object lodged beween backing plate and rotor idea is a good one too, I've also experienced that myself. Best thing to do is pull those wheels off and take a look. If you're lucky something may be easy to spot, and perhaps you can even hear the scraping while turning the rotor manually so you can pinpoint it's origin.
  • otis123otis123 Member Posts: 439
    Thanks all,

    Going to get my wheels rotated & balanced (free) tonight or tomorrow night and hopefully something will fall out so I can avoid a Sat. appt with Subaru. Or, maybe the rear pads are worn enough to scrape when cornering - I hear it when cornering in the parking lot as slickdog commented.

    As I called Subaru today it dawned on me that the 2001 Beaners honeymoon is finally over at 50K miles. Not a bad run so far (on it's way to 200K)...

    :-)

    Ralph
  • sirfilesirfile Member Posts: 42
    To otis123 / Message #2135:

    Ralph,

    The metal to metal sound you are experiencing in your brakes may be the metal wear tabs on the pads contacting the rotors, particularly since the mileage is at 50,000+. Most brake pads are designed that way as an early warning so the rotors won't be scored by excessive pad wear. Pull each wheel and check to see if you can find the offending pad...it should be very noticable. Hope this helps!

    Sirfile
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