Electronic Gremlins - Electrical Problems That Are Driving You Crazy

kiawah

A battery is made up of 6 cells, each cell has 2.2-2.3 volts, so you should see about 13.5 volts (even though it's called a 12v battery).

So if you put a voltmeter +red lead on the + side of the battery terminal, and a -black lead on the - battery terminal, you should see the 13 volts. The - cable runs from the battery to probably your engine block. So if you moved the -voltmeter lead over to the engine block...you should still see the same 13 volts.

Corrosion in a cable, will show up as a higher resistance to the cable than normal. Voltage = I(current) x R (resistance).... so if you have any additional 'R', when there is a current draw thru that resistance, you will have a voltage drop. So if you ran your headlights (so there is a current draw thru the circuitry), and you metered your battery and it showed 13.4 volts, and then you moved your -lead from the negative terminal of the battery to the engine block and the voltage read dropped to 12.0 volts, then that would be because of extra resistance in the negative ground cable.

Great care needs to be taken if you are not familiar with electricity, to not short out the battery....as it is capable of delivering a very high current.

ciscog

Kiawah,thank you sooo much for the help you gave. I followed your advice, and along w/ my cousin we found that the cable from the positive terminal to the alt. read .7v drop. I did't think such a small amount would have such an impact but it was the only place resistance showed its ugly face. Back on the road now thanks to you! :shades:

kiawah

Super, glad you found it. Remember, the more current there is across a given resistance, the greater the voltage drop. Headlights, engine running, air conditioning, fans, all draw power and would effect your voltage.

Was the corrosion at the battery end, the starter end, or did you just replace the cable?

ryefko

I took it to another dealer who represented that they did not rely on "codes" and that sometimes "codes" don't show up. They rely on the symptoms. They gave me their self proclaimed wizard. He examined the Tundra and, finally, someone who felt and experienced first hand, the problems: he stated the radio was "so weak that it was if it had almost no power going to it", that the truck "strained going up hill" and most importantly, the electronic speed control (slows you down going down hills) "felt like it was no longer functional", that "it should be so strong that it will actually lurch you forward"...and it "is barely noticable". He aknowledged that there are definate problems. Finally, someone who listened and experienced what I had been describing. He took it in the back, checked the voltage on the cigarette lighter, battery and alternator (which had all been fine when I had just had them checked before), checked for "codes", then arrogantly came out and announced that because there were no codes, there was nothing wrong with the truck. Thankfully my concealed carry is no good in WV. ANY ideas??? The only thing I could think of that could cause a global loss of power would be an alternator/voltage regulator...maybe a bad diode that isn't showing up in any voltage tests? ALL techs, at every dealership refused to check circuitry...no "codes". Another person suggested having the engine ecu reflashed. What do you all think of that solution? I value your opinions.

bolivar

I've given you my opinion, and it still holds - you've created a significant short or cross-connection due to high amperage melting wires, or have damaged an electronic 'module'.

The dealers mechanics are not trained for electrical trouble shooting. They basically do not want to touch this vehicle.

Since it is still under warranty keep driving it until it catches on fire. Pull to the side of the road, briskly exit the vehicle, and then move at least 100 feet way in case of explosion.

Collect your insurance. You do have insurance, right? And 'gap' insurance if you are upside down on the value of the vehicle?

ryefko

Well, I have already bought another one and will be flying out to pick it up. You are right, dealer mechanics don't want to touch it and fall back on thier "computer codes" crap to cover themselves. I don't have the heart to sell this to an individual, so I will sell it to a dealer, and hopefully it will become a tech's demo.

In the meantime, if anyone else has an opinion of flashing the engine ecu, in case the wires aren't melted (like I could get someone to troubleshoot that) let me know.

Bolivar, this is not discounting what you said, just looking to see if someone else has experience with this. Thanks for your forthright info.

okko1

i had similar problem with a gm product. it took a while to find but the problem started with a penny stuck in a rear seat lighter. the current load had burnt almost all the way though the source wire behind the fuse center. this can happen with out fuse being popped.

0patience

This statement has me stuck
he stated the radio was "so weak that it was if it had almost no power going to it",
What is weak? The voltage going to it? The sound? The reception? If it is the voltage, then how weak is the voltage? And if the voltage is "weak", then that is a clear indication of a problem and will at least give you a starting point.

What was the voltage through out the entire fues panel?
I mean, come on, that is first year apprenticeship stuff.
Find where the power drops off and go from there.

bolivar

0patience, the techs probably think the leads in a multimeter will bite them like a snake.

kiawah

ryefko subscribed to the schematics thru alldata, and I've highlighted the suspect circuitry and emailed directly. There is reportedly 13.3v at the battery, and 12v at the cigarette lighter. Circuit goes from the battery, thru 140A fusible link, thru a 40A fused link, thru the keyswitch, and then an accessory relay, before powering the lighter. I've given a diagnostic technique to use the power outlets as an easy place to measure the voltage (after it's relay is energized), which is connected to mainbuss. That will eliminate the 140A as possible culprit.

This shouldn't be that difficult to isolate, just not sure why any of the shops are getting in deep enough to figure it out. My suspicion is the accessory relay, then key switch, then a connector in the wiring....but only a meter and some digging in will show for sure.

ryefko

He was referring to the sound. "What was the voltage through out the entire fuse panel"? I have no idea. I asked if he used an ohmeter, multimeter or traced any electrical circuitry. He said he traced the cigarette lighter to the battery and it checked out. He refused to check any other circuitry. What the "f"??? (sorry guys but I am ripping my hair out). I tried to give him Kiawhas info, but he had no interest in it. NO ONE WILL CHECK THE CIRCUITRY!! I think it's BS that I had to buy another truck to drive (now $75k in trucks) because no one will do it. To answer Kiawah's question why they are not digging deeper...too much trouble, warranty work doesn't pay, the dealerships have flagged me as a kook, haven't run in to a tech that has the skill or gives a damn??? PS: I told all of them I would pay out of pocket and not worry about "warranty". I think it's wiring, too, but thought I might unhook the battery (with the truck off), wait 15 min then reconnect. Grasping. Thoughts?

kiawah

Well I hope this is your business truck, and you were planning to upgrade anyhow at some point. Can't imagine that the technicians are giving up soo easily with this problem. What are the telling you, that they aren't willing to trouble shoot this?

ryefko

There was nothing to upgrade, it was top of the line. I can't sell this one until I get it fixed because I ethically refuse to do that. The techs have said "we don't have time to do exploratory surgery", "we'd have to pull the whole dash off!!!...", "there are no codes and without them that's as far as we can go", "you have no check engine light on and there would be one if something were wrong", "none of you're fuses are blown and that would be the first thing to go if something were wrong", "any electrical problem would produce a code", " we don't have time for guessing games", etc. The independent was very helpful, but turned out to be wrong about alot of things. I will drive to you, sign something that holds you harmless, and pay you just to troubleshoot. Interested?

okko1

around hear alot of the dealerships will refer you especially on none warranty work. some of your better sound or alarm vendors realy have more knowledge of these systems than do the dealership techs. some armature vendors also do this kind of work expect to pay by the hour.

ryefko

Alright...I checked into the service records of the 2006 Tundra w/18k miles on it that I was planning to buy. Last year it had the power steering pump replaced due to "whining noise". Was a loose nut that leaked fluid over power steering pump. Is this a possible snowballing problem...one thing could gave damaged another, etc?

kiawah

Well you've clearly reached your frustration point, being willing to drive 4hrs and back! In the emails, I had given you a couple places to check voltages. Do you have a digital voltmeter and can you do those measurements? or you don't feel comfortable doing them?

Here's a couple options to try, since you can't seem to find a competent technician
- Take it to a Toyota dealership in larger metro area
- Perhaps check if there is a local college or tech school where they teach electrical enginerring. Talk to the instructor to see if he/she would be willing to take a look at it as a lab project to help the students diagnose the problem. They should certainly be able to do the things I sent earlier via email. Have them obviously stop short of tearing the dash or wiring apart. You have access to the schematics which is a huge help.
- Throw some parts at it. I don't normally do this until proving what is wrong, but given that you are considering some drastic measures it might be worth doing this. Replace the accessory relay, it's the last of the 4 items in the circuit as identified in previous email. This is an item that could be pulled and metered/tested with basic electrical skills, but worst case you could just try replacing it. Not sure what a replacement relay would cost for that vehicle.

user777

is there any chance that the schematics can be posted to someone's carspace, or a link provided to the exact ones that you are dealing with?

also, can someone please explain in simple terms what you meant by the comment on the radio sounding as if it has little power. does that mean it works, and yet the volume it generates in the speakers is low?

and is that the only thing that isn't working properly at this point?

kiawah

Sure, I'll post the schematics...give me a couple mins

kiawah

left hand page

right hand page

The coloring is mine (and a little sloppy), which highlights the circuit in question. Robin reports that there is 13.3 volts at the battery, but 12 volts at the cigarette lighter. Circuit is the battery, thru a 140 fusible link, thru a 40 amp fused link, thru the ignition switch, thru an accessory relay, and then to the cigarette lighter (has the low voltage). That line also picks a relay which turns on the power accessory outlets. Circuit starts on the left page, runs over to the right page, and then back to the left page. Open two windows, and put them next to each other.

This should be a very easy circuit for a technician to troubleshoot.

ryefko

No, there are a number of things slowly going "wrong". Last was the radio. It used to be very powerful, strong, rich, powerful sound. Then, after the lighter incident, approx 1 week later, the radio, even at high numeric volumes,like at volume 24 (which would have blown you out of the car), it sounds like it is getting very little power...tinny, like very little power going to speakers/system. For example, take an 8 speaker JBL sound system with rich, engulfing, powerful sound w/deep bass, then have it suddenly turn into an AM mono station with no bass. That's what it sounds like now. Note: settings are fine. This is just one of the progressive symptoms.

kiawah

Robin,

Which audio system do you have?
- Navigation and Audio System (Access/Standard Cab)
- Navigation and Audio System with RSES (Double Cab)
- Navigation and Audio Ssytem w/8 speaker (Double Cab)
- Audio system for separate amplifier (Access/Standard Cab)
- Audio system for built-in amplifier (Access/Standard Cab)
- Audio system with RSES (Double Cab)
- Audio system w/8 speaker (Double Cab)
- Audio system w/6 speaker (Double Cab)

Looking at a couple of the radio system schematics, they appear to have 3 power feeds to your radio. Rad#1, Rad#2, and Rad#3. If you look closely at the schematic right beneath the cigarette lighter fuse, you will see Rad#2 fed off of that same suspect circuit. So my bet is you have low voltage on your radio as well, which is why you can't get any significant volume from it.

If you give me the radio specifics, I'll verify.

user777

i can see your trace. i'm not accustomed to seeing partial circuits like this. for example, i want to be able to see how the coil to the ACC relay is receiving it's power.

one thing worth considering... it's possible to incurr local heating on the contacts of the acc relay. i personally doubt the relay contacts can handle 7.5 Amps, but assuming they could, and the circuit was pulling a lot of current, it's possible the relay contacts burned / experienced mechanical deformation. if so, it's likely there is now a voltage drop there as well. maybe this explains the voltage difference from the battery to the acc recepticle.

i like your theory w.r.t. the radio being low output. it's possible one voltage feed is for clock / tuning / pre-amp and other functions, and one is for amp power. so maybe there is a blown fuse there.

kiawah

Right, I've seen relay's fail a number of times, either the primary winding burns so the relay won't pick, or the secondary points pit/weld so they are either permanently connected or have high resistance. The schematics aren't real clear, but the one I suspect needs to be checked/replaced is the relay on the right page after the ignition switch called ACC Cut. I had thought originally this was called ACC Out, until I saw it named clearer on a different schematic page.

Looks like on the double cab, this relay might be behind the kickpanel on the left, hard to tell. On the standard cab the relay is up under the dash.

AccCut Relay Location

user777

i concurr. that relay (I think there were two) and any fuses associated with the ACC ckts (and I think you mentioned and the diagram showed a few). these would all be candidates for replacement; all of them.

ryefko

I have this one: Navigation and Audio System w/8 speaker (Double Cab). I am taking it in to the same independent, with a tech with better electrical skills. Will take in your schematic and will look at what you are talking about with the radio feeds. Does that circuit also feed the speed control (slows you down going downhill). That one is a major concern. They are going to put a new alternator in, and if doens't help, they'll take it out so I don't have to pay the $768. I will have them replace the relay you suggested. I don't mind spending the money if this can be fixed.

ryefko

I don't know if I mentioned this, but the auto dim at night for the nav no longer works either. I looked at the schematics and the "illumination circuit" section 6 seems to fit. But they are talking about replacing the harness there. What do you think? I will take everything you think is a culprit, along with the schematics to a tech and simply tell them to replace. I think I am stuck w/a Toyota tech if I do that, however, unless you think a skilled electrical tech can work with this. Do I tell them to replace the relay and all fuses along the circuit you have been referring to (I am assuming those fuses are NOT in the fuse box)plus this harness for the illumination? The a/c switch illuminates, there is no radio illumination...it is nav.

tcryan

a couple of nights ago the headlights went off and wont turn on. its a pull switch. the tail lights and back blinkers work, but the front blinkers and lights wont. help.

kiawah

Can you verify your symptoms, your symptoms as related don't make a lot of sense? Is it true that neither the low beams or high beams work (on either side), neither of the front parking lights work, and neither of the front turn signals blink.

But both of your back brake lights work, and both of your back parking lights work, and both of the rear blinkers work? Are the back blinkers, blinking very slow?

It's suspicious that your back blinkers are working correctly if the fronts are out, if that is really the case. It's also suspicious that you have lost all of the lights in the front, even though some of them would be on the same circuit as the backs. Have you looked at your fuses to see if any are blown?

kiawah

That radio does indeed use all three of the power feeds, Rad1, Rad2, and Rad3. The schematics don't give the particular details to know which radio feature each of the 3 power feeds handle, so for instance don't know which one controls illumination.

So as previously noted in the marked up schematics, a low voltage on the cigarette lighter circuit, would also effect the radio thru one of those 3 power feeds.

plarocque

I have a loose pellet in my key. It has caused my ignition and fuel system to shut down. I have not been able to start it in a week. I have a new key that I have used lots of times over the years now it fails to recognize it at all.I have tested the starter and the Battery both are fine. I bridged the starter bypassing the ignition all together but the fuel cuts out immediately. The SECURITY light should go off after a second or 2 after u put in the key. That tells u the car has read the key, :confuse: mine stays on. Everyone I know has some sort of over ride procedure for resetting their car after accidental security defaults. CCan ANYONE HELP on this one?

kiawah

If your first key is defective with a pellet loose (whatever that is since we don't know what kind of car you have, the model or trim level, or even the year)....and your 2nd key which you know has been good over the years doesn't work either, then I'm betting something has happened to the security system.

You're probably headed down the path where a tow to the dealer is required to fix.

patrickm1

A 2001 Jetta has three turn indicators, front, mid-side, and rear. The right side indicators are flashing faster than, maybe double the rate, as the left side and emergency flashers.

All the lamps are burning. I replaced the lamps thinking that it might be a problem with a lamp. All three new lamps still flash at a faster rate. I have removed and re-attached the plugs to the three locations thinking it may be a corroded or dirty connection. Still no luck. Some have said this may be a flasher problem, but why would the left side and emergency flashers operate correctly if the flasher is bad?

I have checked grounds, but can not find any open ground on the lamp holders.

I am concerned that wiring check will be unproductive since the same lights work properly when the emergency flashers are operating.

Any help would be appreciated. I would like to troubleshoot this myself if possible. Suggestions?

0patience

When did this start?
Had you replaced the bulbs before this started?

Easiest test is to get a new bulb and replace each of the side bulbs that are flashing faster and see if it cures the problem.
If the wrong bulb is in there, it will cause that symptom.

Not likely it is a flasher problem, as it would affect both sides.
It is a good possibility that one of the grounds isn't good.
Are all the bulbs duel element? Meaning they operate the running/tail lights too?

If so, try this. Turn on the headlights and turn the signals on the side that flashes fast. When the other lights flash on, do one of them go out? If so, that is the problem circuit.

kiawah

When a flasher blinks faster on one side, it is indicative of more current being drawn on that side. What is usually the case when this happens, is there is a filament on a dual filament bulb (stop and parking, for instance), where one of the filaments has broken and has dropped down and is touching the other filament. Stop and turn use the same filament (same brightness), the parking filament is dimmer.

You need to remember that the front bulbs turn signal, are on the same circuit as the back. So the problem can be a bulb in the front, affecting the bulb in the back.

Focus on the two bulbs on the right side (front and back), and since you've replaced the right rear start with the right front.

traciec36

I have a 06 Kia Rio, when I drive with the headlights on my radio light will go dim to bright then completly off, this continues for about 15-25 minutes then it is fine, sometimes it happens after driving for an hour or it may start right away. I have taken it to the dealer several times, 3 times they could not duplicate it and I was thinking I'm nuts, till I got it on video as I was driving. Sent the video clip to the dealership they were amazed. So far, I have had my radio replaced, wires cleaned, ignition switch replaced. Still having issues. No other lights go on and off while the headlights are on, just the radio. Any thoughts? Direction I should take? Prayers I can have since I drive my car in the dark on a winding hill.

patrickm1

Thanks for the help. We just purchased the car for my daughter. It has done this since we have had the car.

The bulbs have not been replaced before this. I have tried replacing all of the lamps on the right side as you suggest, but this did not help.

The lamps are not dual element, the brakes, turn signals, and running lights are all separate. The front signal lamp is dual element, but only one filament burns for signalling.

I have checked the grounding both with the lamp in the holder and the lamp holder alone. The front measures 1.6 ohms to the negative battery terminal, the mid side light measures 1.1 ohms to the negative battery terminal, and the rear lamp measures 1.4 ohms to the negative side of a power outlet in the trunk.

patrickm1

Hey, thanks. I have replaced all of the lamps on the right side. They all still blink faster. On this VW, there are three turn signal indicators, front, mid side by the front door, and rear.

Front is a dual element, although I believe only one is used for the turn signal process that I can see. The side and rear lamps are single element and do not indicate running, or brake lights.

I have checked ground as well and can not find an open ground at the lamps or lamp holders.

kiawah

Check that front right 'dual element' bulb. Can you take off the lens cap, and see the elements of the bulb while they are on? Look at the element that is lit when the parking lights are on, and make sure it is the low wattage filament.

Then turn off the parking lights, turn on the right turn signal, and look at the filaments again. You should only see the brighter higher wattage filament.

It is also possible, that the side marker bulb is bad. If that is lighting, but drawing toooo much current, that would have the same effect. Take that bulb out, and see if the fast flashing stops.

crockettcowboy

I have a Chrysler Town and Country Van 2004, Most of the time when I use the RIGHT turn signal, the LEFT indicator light on the dashboard activates. Also, the turn signals sometimes turn off after about 5 seconds of functioning.

patrickm1

VW update: OK, I have checked the front right lamp. It appears that the flasher signal is brighter than the running light. The same filament is burning on both left and right front yellow lamps when the running lights are on and it appears to be the dimmer of the two lighting filaments in both lamps. That appears OK.

When I turn off the running lamps and turn on the right signal, the brigher of the two flashes, yet still faster than the left.

I removed the side marker lamp from the holder and still the flashing is fast on the right side.

kiawah

Okay...those are all correct. That's the normal typical items where there are problems. I can think of only one other easy thing to check, before it gets more difficult.

I believe you say you replaced the lamps on the right. Is there any chance that you have a wrong type of bulb in than the car calls for? One diagnostic thing you could do to prove it is not the bulbs, is to switch the right bulbs to the left, and the left to the right. If the problem moves to the left, then you have proved that one of the bulbs in the problem. If the problem stays on the right, then you have proved that it is definitely not the bulbs.

Beyond that, you might have to get a set of electrical schematics. I just checked HelmINC who have cheap access charges for online service manuals, but they don't have VW's. Not sure where you'd go to find a set.

Most cars only have one flasher that is used for both the right and left. I don't know if that is the case with a Jetta as well. Can you find the flasher, and is there only one? If there are two, and they are the same part number, can you swap them to see if the problem moves?

patrickm1

OK, that proved very helpful. I switched all three right lamps with all three left lamps. The problem is gone. I was focused on the right side so I previously took out all of the right side lamps, took them to a parts store and asked for replacements.

During today's replacement that you suggested, I noticed that the right rear lamp that I replaced was not the same size as the left side lamp that was flashing correctly. The base fit correctly, but the globe was a different size.

One explanation could be that the previous owner replaced the right rear lamp with something on hand and either did not notice the flasher speed change, or did not care and left it as it was.

What is not clear to me is why the different lamp would not work correctly on the right side and would work correctly on the left side.... It seems to me that an incorrect lamp would cause similar problems on whichever side it was installed. Thanks for hanging with me on this.

0patience

Some vehicle flashers use resistance to make the flasher click on and off. If the resistance isn't enough or too much, then the flasher could flash faster or slower. Things like filament size, wire length and better or worse grounds may all affect these.

The bulb was what kia and I were getting at and suspected.
There are electronic flashers available that aren't affected by resistance. They are more a timer flasher.

kiawah

Perfect,

0patience is on to something, you could have 2 flashers in the vehicle, and one was previously replaced (one being a timer flasher, one being a current sensing flasher). So the problem is actually the combination of a current flasher, with an incorrect bulb. Change the combo, and the problem goes away.

As a side note, timer type flashers are typically used for vehicles that are going to tow things. Adding a trailer with lights changes the current draw, and to avoid blinking fast you need it to be based on time...versus current.

What I would suggest to totally wrap this problem up, is to replace the rear bulb which you suspect is the incorrect one with a new one. Owners manuals typically list the correct bulbs for the vehicle. That way this problem won't come back.

Congrat's on getting this fixed!

patrickm1

OK - Today, I purchased a new rear lamp, not just a replacement of the one that was there, but the lamp listed on the open schematic at the parts place. Turns out that one of the lamps was right, and one was the wrong lamp.

Still don't know why a lamp would light up, but possess just the wrong amount of resistance to cause the flasher to flash incorrectly, but this proves it is possible.

When I installed the new lamp on the right, and the correct existing lamp on the left, the flashers all worked at the slower, what I believe to be correct, rate. Thanks to you and 0patience for helping with this.

oleflier

try hiting top of dash above fuel guage somewhat hard. mine comes back i also loose fuel pump when mine acts up i have not found bad connection but suspect circuit involving neutral start and shift indicator . one time blew tans fuse and had to drive it home 2nd gear only.

01tc

I have a 2001 Town and Country that is doing the same thing, also the high beams to not always turn on or off. I'm guessing it's the switch. I had problems with the headlights turning off and on by themselves last year, I replaced the switch myself and have had no problems since. The dealer wanted an arm and a leg to do it but it was not very hard to do myself. that's probably what i'll end up doing for the blinker.

trader22

I have a 2000 Town and Country. My right parking light in front does not come on but the turn signal does work. I have replaced the bulb because it is a dual element. Not sure what to do next? The left side front works fine.

blynmazda5

I have a 2006 Mazda 5. When the headlights are turned on, the light on the radio flickers on and off when I have my foot on the brake and turn the steering wheel back and forth very slowly. The radio lights only flicker if I move the steering wheel when my foot is on the brake. If I come to stop and do not move the steering wheel then there is no flickering.

Any ideas on what is causing this? Any suggestions on how to fix it?

Thanks.

Gideon

okko1

ground problem where i don't know :confuse: