Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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I think if it was my car I'd investigate in this order.
- Pull the fuse(s) for the door locks and power windows. This is first only because it is easiest to do. I suspect this is least probability of being the problem. Drive around this way for a while to see if your problem goes away. If it does, then you know there is something wrong in the door switches or wiring to the switches.
- Look closely at the key switch in the steering column, to see if there is any indication that they tried to break that off, or jam something into it to break out the lock. If there is no problem here, then I'd move on.
- I'd take the radio out, well actually disconnect all of the wiring to the radio. Inspect the wiring to see if it appears that they yanked on the wiring, pulling any of the wires out of the plugs, or any insulation stripped off the wire exposing the metal wire itself. Drive it around a while to see if the problem goes away.
Drew
Some cars have a two-piece ground cable and the junction of where the first piece meets the second is problematical.
I have this 1995 Isuzu Rodeo that has this intermittent problem of the dahsboard lights and taillights going out at the same time. The brake lights, turn signals and headlights including the higbeams work just fine. It is only the sahboard and taillights at go our at the same time. Any ideas on what to check first?
Thanks in adavance
another possibility is a blown fuse of course.
check the fuses related to lights; if one isn't loose or blown, i suspect the switch in the stalk. other people may disagree.
a pull-it place is an option.
is it a module, or a wire harness?
inquire with another ford dealership (i suspect if it is still available, another service / parts person may know), or with a shop that generally services fords.
i cannot believe you can't get the part.
you wrench the part off or out of the vehicle and pay the lot supervisor / owner. some places provide tools, some do not. some go out and wrench the part off / out for you, and some don't.
a used autopart that otherwise doesn't see much use is often far cheaper than buying new. when you can't locate new or reconditioned, sometimes it's your best bet.
955Rodeo
Some cars also have fusible links that are "in-wire" fuses coming off the battery and some have things like a main power relay.
So it's a step by step process starting with the simplest thing (the battery) and working forward into the guts of the car.
Since home computer motherboards do withstand lightning hits sometimes,
maybe your car's computer board will, too.
in general, i would think the electricals would be more or less safe by the fact there is a metal skin surrounding them.
the FIRST thing I would do is disconnect the battery for a long period. I suppose if enough of an electromagnetic pulse was super-imposed on the wiring, it's possible one or more electronic modules was put into an illegal / unpredictable state. killing the power for a long period may force the vehicle back to it's default state.
if that works, then I presume it may be necessary to bring it in to a dealership to have necessary REFLASH operations done on the PCM/ECU and TCM. also, some idle relearn may have to be performed.
good luck.
Because my wife was driving it in a thunderrstorm, she heard the shot of lightening, saw sparks on the antennae of the car (I hear it shredded the plastic around the antannae), and I believe she also said the car kind of "glowed" at this same split second. The car lost power immediately (as well as the power steering, power brakes, etc...), but she was able to get it to the shoulder. She also said she could smell the distinct odor of hot (burnt?) electronics. Hwy patrol and AAA came out, but no one could get the car to refire. Car was towed to a dealership, and they should be looking at it this coming week. I will let you know what we find out.
I am not a physicist, so I don't know if it could have hit something else, and maybe bounced to her indirectly???
i guess someone would have to go through all the fuses and check for proper electrical continuity using an Ohm meter. i guess someone would also have to do the electrical reset by removing the battery.
the fact she smelled "burned electronics"... i remain hopeful that that was a result of the hit and rapid changing of the atmosphere in the immediate vicinity of the car by the voltage potentials involved (ozone formation) and not by actual burning wiring because of electrical resistive heating.
i can imagine that sort hit superimposed on the wiring of the car (extent unknown) could result in electrical arcing and heating and welding of relay contacts, and for very thin traces on circuit boards or windings on inductors or relay coils, shorts.
if the energy entered via the radio antenna, and if there was sufficient path for arcing to earth ground... i can see the potential for some serious damage.
i guess someone will have to systematically try to resurrect the vehicle, starting with the ignition circuits and go from there. one tell-tale.. after inspecting and replacing any bad fuses, checking the battery, turning the ignition to ON should result in some feedback through the instrument panel lighting.
shifty, i'm thinking at worse, an insurance claim that might result in possibly a total if they can't isolate the problem(s).
perhaps fried ECM/PCM/TCU, maybe damage to instrument panel electronics. then there's the issue of any units associated with ABS, VSC, immobilizer, etc.
at best, a few blown fuses.
more than likely: somewhere in the middle, but completely a WAG. i hope a really really good independant shop or a good dealership master tech is on this case.
I suppose it would be like flood damage or a tree falling on your car. Probably a fairly rare claim.
I agree, that "smell" was probably ozone. But I'd check battery and cables first...I mean, even if the entire wiring system was fired, the car should at least crank with a new battery and cables and a remote starter hooked up.
Yes, it will be covered - per the adjuster, as long as it truly is lightning damage, which I think is pretty obvious given the circumstances. The paint was actually burned off the antannae, and the antannae then bent over. I looked at the car, the windshield wipers run constantly when the key is turned to the accessory position (even if the switch for the wipers in in the off position). Only the right side speakers work (maybe a channel was burned up on the head unit?). The car will not start though.
I did not try disconecting the battery cable, or check any fuses (I had to get a personal item out of the car, so I was only able to look at it for a few minutes). I am not messing with a thing until a professional has a chance to look at it "as it sits now" - which should be this week.
Seems to me, with the rate of labor these days, it could cost a ton just to analyze and diagnose what all needs to be replaced, BEFORE any parts are bought, or any actual repair work is done. What I am getting at is - would an insurance company be willing to possibly spend a couple thousand in diagnostics labor, with no guarantee of the car even being able to be fixed? Car is currently probably worth $9,000-$12,000.
hey, you have wipers and one channel of the audio! that's better than nothing.
the call with respect to totalling it out is gonna come from the mechanics. i hope you brought it to a dealership or an independant shop specializing in your car.
the fact it doesn't start but you have wipers and radio suggests fusing / relay problems, possibly even a shorted stalk switch for wiper control. :sick:
first, i imagine they'll be looking at the dash indication when putting it in the acc position. if no self test, then possible expensive problem with the PCM/ECM and/or dash.
they are gonna have to see if it can crank then turn over / run before they go much further, so they'll probably spend an hour looking at the fusing and ignition / fuel pump relaying.
if they can get dash instrument response and get it to fire, you got a chance, if not, maybe they make the call then and there.
if they can get it to crank and run, they'll try to drive it, and I imagine they'll determine then if the TCM / ABS system is toast or not.
one thing is almost for sure at this point: your antenna, and radio are burnt toast.
hopefully, it all falls back into place with some fuses and perhaps a PCM replacement. radio? possible upgrade time. :shades:
Right - the car doesn't matter.
My whole deal with the car is, how feasable is it to actually check over everything, and make sure they have caught all the problems? Lightning and electrical issues are screwy. Those relays, computers and switches (along with labor) can't be cheap - Not to mention the labor involved just with diagnosing the vehicle....on a car that is worth in the $10,000 range. It wouldn't surprise me if the head unit was $500 by itself.
i don't know how if any manufacuturers actually put their vehicles through this sort of simulated strike. i remember long ago a GE transformer and switchgear division in Pittsfield MA had a lightning laboratory for more or less controllable / repeatable hits on equipment, but I don't think cars were ever run through it. :surprise:
I think you are right, the PCM/ECU can't be cheap.
You might want to speak with the repair shop and ask them about their plan of attach and when / how they'll make the call one way or the other.
Right, the car has not had a history of electrical issues, so if they were to start popping up after the car is "fixed", or especailly if one were to pop up and injure the driver or passenger, I imagine that could make for a lawsuit. To take it a step further, would a shop want to work on it to begin with? Seems to me that a shop would be afraid to stick their neck out and say "your car is fine now". Anyways, it is up to the insurance company to talk to the shop, and then determine what will be done. But trust me, I will want a detailed list of everything that is done, if they attempt to fix it.
I want to thank you and user777 for your general input. As you can imagine, my wife and I are kind of feeling our way through this, as there aren't a lot of people that have had this happen to them to advise us. I will let you know what happens.
making sure the ABS/VSC and SRS system is all intact. come to think of it, wow, the SRS system didn't blow the bags. i can only imagine what would happen if you were driving down the HWY and the bag or bags deploy and you can't see anything...
this is why i think if it is repaired, it has to be by a dealership using only OEM parts, and you need some form of documentation proving they TESTED these sub-systems and they are all conforming.
shifty, does 1racefan have a leg to stand on by asking "can you guarentee that the safety restraint system will be functional in a crash" and that the ABS and VSC will operate properly?
that's interesting territory isn't it?
The problem with electrical repairs is that they are impossible to estimate, so I'd imagine what will happen first is that the shop will be directed to do a diagnosis only and then report back to the insurance adjuster.
"I'd imagine what will happen first is that the shop will be directed to do a diagnosis only and then report back to the insurance adjuster."
See - that's been my whole question all along...seems like you couldn't really do this. Seems like you would just have to start working on the car, and fixing/replacing things as you came to them. By the time a solid diagnosis is made, there will already be a ton of labor hours (diagnostic) involved.
The only thing showing the age of the car is all these annoying electrical switch failures. I have a match book wedged in the flasher button just to keep the turn signals working and have had problems with the headlights and other annoying switch failures.
The one problem that is really stumping me is the power windows. I got into the car one hot day and the windows would not work. None of them. The main switch on the driver side door buzzes when you depress it to open the driver side window. I thought I had it figured when I bought a new switch. Four buttons for the windows and one for the window lock out all in one box.
The new switch does nothing accept that it buzzes a little louder than the old one did.
Have other chevy owners experienced these problems?
I've already checked all the fuses and they are OK. Nothing left for me to check that I know of.
Any suggestions?
I don't know if I should trust a car if it has numerous known electrical problems when it gets older.
when the vehicle's interior cools down, do the windows work? that would be a tell-tale that it is marginal regulators with tempermental thermal protection at play.
Sometimes the switch buzzes and sometimes not. Might there be a breaker or relay causing the problem? If so where is it located??
Can I find a wiring diagram for the Impala power window circuits??
RE: buzzing switches.....sure, I'd look at the relay that controls these switches, absolutely. After all, a relay is only a heavy switch that takes the current that little switches cannot handle...so if it's ailing, it makes sense that the little guys won't get the voltage they need.
relays will buzz / hum. sure, when they are being pulsed close and open very rapidly.
a motor (stepper or other) will buzz/hum if it's mechanically held in place and prevented from turning.
however, the report indicated there was buzzing when trying to adjust the driver's window.
i wager there's a problem with sticktion of the driver's window and / or a bad window regulator at that position. i'm thinking a switch assembly need not be complicated. a wiring diagram (if someone had one) could be consulted to see if the master sw controls a relay whose contacts gate power to the other switches. it could be designed that way, but i'm not sure why it would have to be that way.
now if the buzzing happens when trying to raise/lower any window? then i'm with you. relay. if driver's only: window regulator.
I appreciate all your input and suggestions.
I've been trying to figure this out for a week now and have been to the end of the internet trying to find a wiring diagram for a 2002 Impala. There seems to be diagrams for everything except power windows like they're not really a part of the car system.
I'll explain again exactly what is happening.
One day none of the widows would work, up or down. On the main switch (Drivers side) the only button that showed any life was the button that works the drivers side window.
When I press it, it sometimes it buzzes and sometimes it doesn't but the windows don't budge with any other button. Not on the other doors either.
I changed the switch with a brand new one and it does the same thing. Next thing I did was to look in the fuse box on the drivers side of the dash. All fuses are good.The fuse cover has a diagram but it doesn't tell you everything. Also checked the connections at the switch. I'm wondering about a relay called a RAP or something like that. I think it delays the current to the door switches after you shut the ignition key.I have a very good "Fluke" tester and know how to use it. My next guess is a relay or a breaker somewhere because the buzzing sounds like a weak current and the window switch relay is buzzing because it is trying to open with a weak current. When I have more time to tear things apart I'll try checking the contenuity on each wire individually. I have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of trouble shooting circuits in household heating and cooling systems (Part of my trade) and my experience in that tells me you just don't touch this to that to see what happens. So I'm trying to get my hands on a diagram first. A chevy with 225,000 miles on it I feel is not worth handing over to a mechanic who may spend hours looking for the problem.Especially when I'm not sure what OTHER CHEAP CHEVY SWITCH is going to break next. No offense to the trade. I just don't think the car is worth that expense especially when I see one electrical problem after another. Did I tell you I have a match book wedged in the flasher switch to keep the turn signals working?
Why the heck can't I obtain a wiring diagram? If I can fix it myself I'll stick with it. I was on another forum where you paid a donation to get advise from a proffessional. The advise he offered wasn't worth 50 cents and that thread is a dead issue. Take that for some advise also. Don't pay a donation until you get decent advise. You guys have offered me more input.
Thanks to all who have offered advise and hopefully this thread will help others. If I do figure it out I'll get back to this forum in appreciation for your friendly time and advice.
Noodles
Electrical diagrams - I think you will need a manufactor's service manual. Look on eBay, there are manuals for sale for almost all cars. If not today, then keep checking for a few days, one will appear. Or, go to www.helmsinc.com and order one new for your car. This is the 'publisher' for manufactor's service (and other) manuals.
If you are going to attempt to keep a 225,000 Chevy running, a manufactor's service manual for the car would be a good investment!
Well one place you can buy manuals, is from Chevy. Go to your owners manual and look in the back, and it should give you the phone number and/or address to order factory service manuals. I had bought service manuals and electrical wiring diagrams for a 97 Suburban that I have, I'm assuming they were still selling them in 2002.
I don't know if you can find them online anywhere. I've bought Ford manuals recently from www.helminc.com who give you something like a 48 hour access for 10 bucks....a great deal as you can download and/or print whatever you need. I looked at helminc, and they don't appear to have the wiring diagrams for your model/make vehicle.
I think you're going to have to check the voltage on each switch to figure out what is going on. Don't know for sure with your make/model, but remember the drivers window may work differently than the other windows if it has a one-touch autodown feature (they might do that function with a relay).
I would think it unlikely that you would have multiple window motor failures at the same time, so I personally would suspect the main switch (which you've replaced), or the power feed to the switch (which I think you are zeroing in on now).
I have had a problem in the past in an old Corvette with the wiring between the door and the frame as it flexes back and forth when you open the door. That vehicle was 20+ years old though, and had probably thousands of door open/close cycles.
For whatever it is worth, the suburban circuit shows the switch unit powered by 2 power circuits. The first is fused at 20 amp, feeds the dimmer switch, which then feeds the switch illumination lamps. The second is a 30A circuit breaker in the fuse block to the convenience center, then to the drivers main door switch and also the window lockout switch. Window lockout switch gives power to the other three door switches. This is a pretty clean simplistic circuit, no telling what changes were made between 97 and 2002 though.
Any ideas?