Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

crankky

Trying to diagnose a strange problem with the brakes on my 2001 Windstar. When the pedal is depressed, we hear a sound from under the dash board that kind of sounds like something rubber being twisted or compressed, sqeaking. This isn't the pads or shoes. Definitely inside the car. I have the Ford Extended warranty and the deal replaced the brake booster last week. However, that didnt' make any difference at all. They tried to tell me that it's normal but it didn't do it when we bought the car and only started in the last 18 months or so.

It's worse when the weather is warm and when it gets bad, the brake pedal gets hard to press.

Could this be the master cylinder?

crankky

Anyone?

wtd44

If it's a problem to you, then you must push Ford into doing something about it. Try more than one dealer. District managers often get results when dealers balk. Lawyers may be even better! Good luck.

burdawg

Is there a bushing up under the dash that supports the pedal arm? Could it possibly be binding?

mandymusika

Hi Everyone,

We have had our 2000 Jeep grand cherokee for 2 years. In Oct 05 we replaced all rotors with after market NAPA slotted and cross drilled rotors. Got new ceramic brake pads. Caliphers were not replaced (told they were ok) but they did do something to them - refinished? Not sure there. Here's the problem. It seems off and on (and we only notice it when we go down a muddy road - gravel after it rained type of thing, or 4x4ing) but we get a burnt brake smell coming from the front wheels. Could the mud be causing problems or is that just when the smell is the worst so we notice it? Not sure there.
What do you guys think is the problem? I know these trucks are bad for their brakes but after spending $1200 on all new top of the line (non jeep parts lol) you'd think i'd be free and clear.
Any sugggestions would be appreciated.

tHanks
mandy
R

burdawg

If your braking heavily under these conditions, then the brakes are getting hot, thus the smell.
I would have the condition of the pads checked to see how their wearing.

jaxs1

What would cause the brakes to squeak sometimes and not other times? I have a car that brakes squeal about 50% of the time and hasn't done it when I had the car in for service and wanted them to find the cause. They say they inspected the brakes and saw no obvious visible problem and the pads have plenty of wear left since they were replaced less than a year ago (partly due to brake noise back then). After the last brake job, the squealing went away for a few months.

Sometimes when it squeals, I can release and reapply the brakes and it won't squeal on the next brake application. Other times they will squeal several times in a row.

bpeebles

Your squeeling is not a cause for concern. If you want them to be quiet... consider pads that are designed for low squeeling... or install anti-squeel pads on the back of your existing brakepads.

Anti-squeel pads are basically thin peel-n-stick thingies that apply to the backside of your brakepads. They alter the resonant frequency of the brake components.

jordanf

Well, it seems I'm goin through break fluid like crazy and i can't seem to find any leaks to speak of. I 've loooked dang near everywhere. I must be over looking something but if anyone has ever had the problem a few ideas would be great. Its a 91 Chevy k1500 4x4
Thanks

Mr_Shiftright

Could be sucked out of the power brake booster into the engine's intake manifold. Do you ever notice perhaps a rougher engine idle when you step on the brake?

crankky

I've tried lubricating that bushing and it's made no difference.

Could something else be causing the brake booster to operate outside of normal limits, thereby causing the noise? To me, and I'm sensitive to this type of thing, it feels like I must use a little more pedal pressure than normal to stop the car.

We're on our third (counting the original) brake booster, and the noise/feel is exactly the same as before. While Ford may have suspect suppliers, I find it hard to believe that "that's just they way they are" (as stated by the dealer).

Bad vacuum connection to the booster? Bad connection to the master cylinder? Bad master cylinder itself?

bolivar

When you push on the brake, does the engine idle change?
Run rough, slow down, etc.

If so, this indicates a vacuum leak in the booster. And the leak may be what you are hearing.

Father in laws Pontiac van blew a booster - push the brake and idle dropped significantly. Braking took heavy push to stop the car. Of course, I think this booster had basically failed completely. Yours might be just starting to leak.

crankky

I checked that last night and didn't notice any change in engine idle speed. The sound we're hearing isn't a air leakage type of sound. It sounds like something rubber being stretched or compressed. The dealer described it as the rubber bellows inside the brake booster and I guess that makes sense. But, now on the 3rd booster with no change, I'm beginning to wonder.

tamofaye

I have a 98 Chevy Cavalier. The pads and rotors have been checked and are fine. Sometimes when I apply my brakes it's as if they are trying to grab and it's like how my car drives when I try to stop it on ice. There is no pulsating in the pedal and the ABS light does not come on. It usually happens when I'm going fairly slow (like pulling out of a parking lot and pausing to check for oncoming cars) and almost always happens when I'm pausing and I'm on a somewhat downward incline in the front. The grabbing is taking place in the front and not the rear. The brake fluid needs to be topped off but other than that, that is the only problem anyone can see.

bolivar

Well, top off the brake fluid.

Low fluid means the brakes have worn, the pads/shoes have moved out, and more fluid is displaced from the master cylinder out thru the system, or...

a leak.

If there is a leak and fluid gets on pads or shoes, they may 'grab'.

I would look for a leak first.

No, first I would top off the brake fluid.

wtd44

another thing to consider is the compatibility of the current pads with the job at hand. I'm betting that considering the car is a 1998, it likely has brake pads that did NOT come with the car. Some formulas of pad are "grabby" compared to others. You might want to look into changing to a different set of pads. Based on my own experience, I would suggest that NAPA Premium pads (and rotors, if needed) could be a good choice.

terry222

I'm trying to do a brake job on my 2001 ford taurus, and I can't get the rear drum off. It's like it's holding on to something. Shouldn't it just slide off? I have already loosened that screw on the inside.

burdawg

When you said that you loosened the screw on the inside, you did mean that you backed off the self adjuster?

cssnostromo

Sounds as if water/condensation has entered your brake system. Water in the lines or reservoir lowers the boiling point of the brake fluid and will cause fluid to boil off under moderate to heavy braking(especially if towing). Use a Mityvac brake vac or powered vacuum system to run NEW high quality brake fluid through your lines. Also check out your wheel cylinders in the rear drum brakes, these are often a leaking point when the cylinders begin to age. You can lose a good deal of fluid this way. Also carefully inspect each brake line(as well as the metering valve) for pitting, rust or other damage.

billwfriend

While my 97 Stratus has always had a bit of a spongy effect when hitting the brakes, recently during hard stops, the peddle has sunk nearly to the floorboard partway thru braking, increasing stopping distance.

This is only occurring while braking from, say, 60 mph to a stop. Not getting this 'effect' when braking up to 40 mph. It's like the brakes work fine braking from 60 down to 20 mph, then the pedal suddenly depresses without any further braking! Fortunetly, that last inch before the pedal bottoms out against the floorboard stops the car.

I did have the brake power booster replaced around 2 years ago, this feels eerily similar...

Anyone got any thoughts or experience on this???

thanks!

Mr_Shiftright

I'd definitely flush the brake fluid every 2-3 years anyway. If that doesn't help, I'd consider power bleeding of the brakes and possibly replacement of the front brake hoses (which may be weak and thus expanding under pressure).

billwfriend

It ended up being a pinched brake line... the shop replaced all necessary parts absolutely free, since they're the ones who pinched it when replacing a wheel cylinder...

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmmm....well, okay, but that doesn't quite add up...a pinched brake hose would give you extremely hard brakes or dragging brakes....The idea is that with a restriction, the fluid pressure on the brake pedal side gets very strong (can't get through the pinch) and the fluid pressure on the caliper side STAYS strong (can't return to the brake fluid reservoir) so the caliper stays closed.

A weak or expanding brake hose however decreases the pressur in the line, much like air would do, thereby giving you a weak pedal.

But...as long as your problem got fixed, that's really all that matters....maybe just replacing the line did the trick regardless of the initial cause.

shipo

"Hmmmm....well, okay, but that doesn't quite add up...a pinched brake hose would give you extremely hard brakes or dragging brakes..."

I suppose they could have pinched it while the brake cylinder was off and managed to trap some air in the line.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

or maybe just forgot to bleed the brakes properly in the first place and covered their butts with this story :mad:

shipo

Yup, could be that too. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

billwfriend

Well, I was also losing brake fluid left and right too... everytime the pedal would 'sink' during braking, 1/6 of my brake fluid would drain out!

Perhaps one of the brake lines had sprung a leak?

Regardless, they're working great now!

Mr_Shiftright

Oh well that's interesting...if they crushed AND broke the line, that would explain a) your symptoms and b) why they would be absolutely terrified to tell you the truth.

Of course, this is all just idle speculation---but the explanation just didn't make sense to me personally.

wtd44

Sounds like a hole in a line, one way or the other. I had one spring a leak from wear created by friction on the chassis next to the line. I was on top the High Rise Bridge in downtown New Orleans (circa 1978) when I felt the loss of pedal. Spoiled my whole day. The escaping fluid was falling onto my hot tail pipe, and smoke was billowing out from under my rig. Serendipity struck when I discovered I was only blocks from an International Harvester dealership! By the end of the day the Travelall had a new line.

crankky

I am trying to diagnose a strange problem with the brakes on my 2001 Ford Windstar. When the pedal is depressed, we hear a sound from under the dash board that kind of sounds like something rubber being twisted or stretched, kind of a loud rubbery sqeaking sound. This isn't the pads or shoes. Definitely inside the car. I have the Ford Extended warranty and the dealer has replaced the brake booster three times so far. However, that hasn't made any difference at all. They tried to tell me that it's normal but it didn't do it when we bought the car and only started in the last 18 months or so.

Supposedly, it's the rubber bellows inside the booster making the noise. But, since we're on our third replacement so far, I'm beginning to wonder. What else could be causing this noise? If it is coming from the booster, is there anything else that could be causing the booster to make that noise?

It's worse when the weather is warm and when the problem really gets bad, the brake pedal gets hard to press, as if there is a lot of resistance.

Thanks.

askperry

I have a 1991 Mazda 626 DX with soft brakes. When I press the brake pedal it gives very little resistant and has very little effect until it is about halfway down. After the halfway point, the brakes are firm and work correctly. Pumping the brake pedal has no effect on the problem. This problem has persisted through new brakes, new rotors, and a new master cylinder (which requires the fluid to be bled.)
This car does not have anti-lock brakes.

Where should I start troubleshooting this issue?

Thanks,
GP
:confuse:

bpeebles

Your description sounds as if most of the major components have been either replaced or verified to be good.

It sounds to me as if the adjustmet of the "pushrod" between the brake-pedal and the master-cylinder may be too short.

Another possibility is that you may have a brake shoe/pad that is retracting a bit too much when not in use. This would make for longer-than-normal brakepedal travel.

If you have rear drum brakes, I would suggest that your automacic-adjusters be checked to be doing their job. (of keeping the 'slack' out of the brake system)

burdawg

I have to agree. If the pushrod is adjustable it has probably just worn enough to get sloppy, which of course could also be true even it isn't adjustable.
One word of caution, if an adjustment is available it has to be done right. To tight and it won't allow for pad retraction on the disc brakes when they heat up.

wtd44

Sometimes in situations where, after "the brake job" the pedal just never seems like it was when the car was newer. This may in reality not be a problem. Are you worried that a problem exists, only on the basis that the brakes are different than they were when it had the original brakes? Is there a defect at hand that must be remedied, or are you just sincerely concerned that there may be a problem and you don't yet know what it is?

leyr

I have the same problem. Have you heard from anyone yet on the diganosis?

crankky

It ended up being the master cylinder. It wasn't working correctly and therefore was making the brake booster groan and squeek. Can't say for sure that the brake booster didn't have a problem. But after three replacements and no improvement I was very skeptical.

New master cylinder, bled the lines and all is well. Hope that helps.

bill864

Can any one tell me if it is possible to adjust the sensitivity on a delco single diaphragm booster? Brakes are too sensitive for a light car application.

1racefan

I have an '02 Hyundai Elantra with 81K miles on it. Last fall, I had new pads and rotors put on the front, as well as new shoes installed in the rear (drums). All of this was about 12K miles ago. I drive the car, and am pretty easy on brakes. I typically get at least 35K out of brakes.

Within the past week, I have noticed that when I apply the brake and get to the point of almost being at a complete stop, I get a little bit of squeeking just for a second. Now, my rotors and pads were replaced about 12K miles ago, so I have a hard time believing I have worn my pads down to the warning indicators. Is a little squeeking like this normal?

shipo

It is the very nature of the disc brake beast to squeak. Said another way, squeaking brakes are an exceedingly poor way to determine how much life is left in the friction material. Over the years brake engineers have come up with numerous ways of reducing or eliminating the noise, some more successful than others. Back in the mid to late 1960s and early 1970s when front disc brakes were first gaining mass acceptance by American manufacturers, squealing brakes were fairly common. One of the tricks I learned from my wrenching mentor was to cover the back of each pad with a layer of high quality Duct Tape (I always used the 3M brand).

Specific to your situation, as many different aftermarket pads use different friction compounds and different backing materials (if any at all), it seems to be a safe bet that your mechanic A) didn't use OEM pads, and did use a fairly cheap set of aftermarket pads.

If you can live with the noise, then you're good to go for the duration of your pad life, however, if the noise becomes unbearable, then your only real option is to have the brakes done again.

I hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Shipo

1racefan

Thanks for the reply. The noise doesn't bother me as it is only for a split second. I have just have never had a car before that produced any noise while braking unless there was a problem (guess I have been lucky).

johno111

I recently bought and installed a set of drilled and slotted rotors. I really can't tell if the stopping is any better than with regular rotors. But anyway, here's my question how can you tell the difference between the right and the left rotor. I went by what the picture looked like on the side of the can of brake parts cleaner spay. Slots and drill holes going from the center to the rear if you're looking at the wheels on the drivers side. Not sure if this is right or wrong or does this make any difference ? Thanks all... John0...

bpeebles

Slotted/drilled rotors will have LESS braking power when compared to "normal" rotors. This is because there is LESS braking surface on the rotors.

The reason people use slotted/drilled rotors is to improve COOLING of the rotors. (or to just look cool)

Under SEVERE braking, the Slotted/drilled rotors can help disapate gasses that build up underneath the pads. I doubt that you will EVER use your brakes to this degree. (How often do you race on the track?)

I am surprized that your rotors were not marked "right/left" (or had an arrow on them somwhere)
In any case, the slots should "fan out" as you move forward. This helps the brake dust to work its way to the outside of the rotors (self cleaning)

burdawg

Usually they are marked with an L or R on the backside inner part of the casting. I have to agree with bpeebles, your probably not going to notice any difference. My experience is that they're a little more noisy than regular rotors.

shipo

"Slotted/drilled rotors will have LESS braking power when compared to "normal" rotors. This is because there is LESS braking surface on the rotors."

That point is actually debatable. True there is slightly less surface area on a drilled and/or slotted rotor, however, due to the fact that the gasses are able to escape easier/earlier (as opposed to remaining trapped between the pad and the rotor, effectively preventing full pad pressure from being brought to bear), there is a school of thought that suggests that MORE of the pad comes in contact with the surface of the relieved rotor than with a standard undrilled/unslotted rotor.

Is that the true science of the matter? At this point I'm not qualified to make that statement. That having been said, the drilled rotors I'm using on one of our MiniVans (which came from the factory with nominally undersized brakes) seem to have more of a bite when warm than did any of the five previous sets of rotors. FWIW, I didn't make the move to drilled rotors to gain more braking, I did it because the relatively thin and small eleven inch rotors that were designed for the van have proven to be incapable of stopping a two ton vehicle without warping, usually in the first 10,000 miles of use.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

I think the "science" of it depends a lot on the engineering and quality of the rotors to begin with---some are really well done, others are pure cosmetic and are worse than OEM rotors. Again, you get what you pay for.

johno111

Thanks for your reply, at least I have the rotors on the correct sides. I never race the car although my son drives this car mostly so who really knows what he's doing other than eating up the front tires every 15k or so. My main reason for the drilled and slotted rotors was for the warping factor. Here in Western Pa you're always going up and down steep hills and have a tendancy to ride the brakes so warping was my biggest concern. However since drilled and slotted rotors can't be turned the cost factor at pad replacement time goes up.

Mr_Shiftright

One thing that kills rotors is when say in a snow melt you go down a long hill and ride the brakes too much, and then you hit the trough of the hill and splash into ice cold water. That'll bend 'em up real good.

burdawg

You can resurface them, but it's usually not cost effective. It's very hard on the cutters on the lathe, which usually need to replaced after, plus you should rechamfer the cross drilled holes also. After resurfacing the slots aren't as effective unless recut, and then you reduce the material under the slot which can weaken them. All in all not really a good idea.

bpeebles

Since you mention the "warping factor".... make absolutely sure that a TORQUE WRENCH is used to snug down the wheels. Overtorqued lugnuts combined with heat can warp rotors too.
(As can water splashed on a hot rotor)

BTW: I can relate to Western PA.... I visit there every summer. (town of West Newton) I have driven all over the country and western PA seems to be some of the most hilly of all. It seems that EVERY road was pourpusly built over the peak of a hill and there is a railroad crossing at the bottom 8-) I usually just use the lower gears to reduce the need to brake in western PA.

smokey75

You also don't want to tighten just one lugnut all the way down without the others. In other words, I put all of them on hand-tight in the star criss-cross pattern. Then tighten them all to half the torque in the criss-cross pattern. Then tighten them completely in the criss-cross pattern.