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Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

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  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    i have a question in regards to the e brake on my '99 pontiac sunfire,,, the e-brake on it almost doesnt work,,, i can pull on it while being in motion and it doesnt eben budge... what do i need to replace on it???? and also is there any aftermarket mod i can do to it to give the rear wheels some serious stopping power????? hit me up thx
  • burdawgburdawg Member Posts: 1,524
    Do you mean the handle doesn't move, or it goes all the way up with no effect?
  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    dude it goes all the way up with no effect what so ever!!!
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    e-brake cable(s) are either out of adjustment or need replacing.
  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    thx man i really apreciate it
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    The brake cable could be broken or even "loose" as in not attached anymore to the in-cab lever.
  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    well what i figured out during the weekend was that it does indeed work,, but i need to pull on that sumbitch REALLY hard i mean all the way up,,, and ill barely notice a difference,, i want it to lock my rear wheels. do you know if the local brake places repair them,,, or is it a DIY kinda job???? and if it is what new parts do i need????????
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Again, there are several possibilities.
    *) Cable not adjusted properly (Depending on car, this may be a simple adjustment right at the base of the lever)
    *)Rear brakes not adjusted properly (are they "disk" or "drum"?)
    *)If you have not used the EMO brake much, BE CAREFUL, it may stick partually enguaged and then your rear brakes will be in real trouble.

    BTW, it is usually not possible to "lock" the rear brakes with the lever. It is desigend to keep a parked car from rolling on a hill.

    If you are attempting to slide the rear end (aka "drifting"), that usually takes a special setup to be able to "lock" the rear end. (like a longer lever with more leverage and setting the cable on the 'tight' side.)
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Many times they use an extra set of calipers mounted on the rear brakes as well.
  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    the rear has drums,,, what kind of a special setup are we talking about here,,,, i saw on a couple of performance catalogues about a so called "hydrawlic (sry if i misspelled the word) e-brake" ...... do you know anything about these,,, and if i were to install one would i have to convert to disk brakes????
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    I have never seen (or heard of) a hydrolic e-brake system on any vehicle at any time for the past 30 years..... and I dont ever expect to. One basis of the e-brake system is supposed to be a back-up if all other braking systems fail. The mechanical cable will work if all the brake fluid is lost from the main system.

    If you have read about such a system - it is ONLY for "off road use only" and may not pass scrutiny of Federal safety laws. We are not really allowed to discuss "illegal" things here in the edmunds forums.
  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    ohh ok thanks dude,, i wasn't aware that they were illegal,,, like i said ,, i came across it in a catalog and it looked interesting... but i had no idea they were illegal... do you know what i can do to it or but so i can enhance the performance and stopping power (without breaking the law)?? or do you know of any manufacturers??? let me know,,, thx
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    No problemo dude... you may not want all the expense of installing some aftermarket thingy anyway. (Why put over $300 of time and money into just the e-brakes?)

    You should at minimum have the drums pulled off and the rear brakes inspected. While in there, the automatic-adjusters should be tweaked properly. Also adjust the e-brake cable so you cannot get any more that about 3 clicks out of it when you pull it up.

    Once that is done, you will have just about the best your factory e-brake system can do.
  • 944s944s Member Posts: 42
    thx for ur advice dude i will do that,, if i take the brakes out what do i have to replace,, should i gar new brake shoes,,,, is it a diy job ????

    imma bounce tho dude,,,, thx for ur advice,,, and have a happy thanxgiving,,, i probably wony be back on to reply till friday.
  • gordmgordm Member Posts: 1
    I have a 1990 4runner and seems a lot of parts fit 90 to 95 years. I had my anti lock light on for about 1 year. I solved this the other day. On the pass side fender is an rear(abs) tracking relay. I subed another and the problem still existed.
    I the proceeded to the rear diff. On top is a sensor bolted on with wires that lead to a plug over the pass side rear tire up on the frame. The sensors are very hard to remove without breaking them. I started by removing one at a wreckers and was successful without breaking it. I started by unpluging the one in my truck and plugging in the used one. The light went out as it should. With that amo I started removing mine. Broke it off!! Now if that happens just use a sharp srew drive or a hook to pull out the old one. I got lots of copper wire before the case of it come out. Be carfull ont to drive it in or drop material from it into the diff housing. My abs is now working fine. as a note My truck is a 1990 and has no wheel sensors at all!
    Hope this helps you out... took me a lot of reading to come up with the fix.
  • sky23213sky23213 Member Posts: 300
    As I usually do, I read the whole thread before I post a question. Your discussion on brake fluids got me thinking: my 05 CRV Manual clearly states, even in bold (or was it bpeebles :P ), that brake fluid should be replaced every 2 years regardless of mileage. Well, makes sense, especially in the light of the issue discussed here. Then I tried to remember any brake fluid service on my 01 Galant - nothing of the kind. I went through the Maintenance schedule although I knew there's nothing in it since I follow it precisely. The dealer hasn't suggested any service either, and they are usually quick to do that. The car has 114K and never any trouble with the brakes. Is that an omission on part of Mitsubishi or it has some superior brake system that doesn't need servicing?
    Alcan? Bpeebles? Chipo? Host? Anyone? I would appreciate any thoughts on that?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Brake fluid absorbs water from the environment and said water severely compromises the chemical integrity of the brake fluid. If you were to bleed the brakes from your 114,000 mile Mitsubishi I'd bet that you would find a cloudy/milky substance instead of clear/opaque liquid. The water trapped in the brake fluid WILL cause brake system problems that will manifest themselves in a number of ways, the two most prominent of which are listed below:

    1) Corrosion of the internal Master Cylinder and internal Wheel Cylinder surfaces. Said corrosion will eventually lead to a slow but persistent degradation of braking performance and if left unchecked will culminate in complete brake system failure.

    2) Contaminated brake fluid has a MUCH lower boiling point than new/clean brake fluid. When brake fluid boils (such as when driving in heavy traffic or repetitive braking while in the mountains), braking performance is all but non-existent. Prior to reaching the boiling threshold of the brake fluid, the car will not exhibit any noticeable degradation in stopping distances or pedal feel, however, the instant the fluid boils, your brakes are effectively gone. Scary.

    Any number of vehicle manufacturers recommend a semi-annual brake system flush, regardless of the number of miles driven, and many of those also recommend a Dot-4 brake fluid which has a higher boiling point.

    FWIW, regardless of whether my cars recommend the service and the better fluid (our Dodge Caravans don't, our BMWs do), adhere to the two year/Dot-4 service schedule.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sky23213sky23213 Member Posts: 300
    Thank You for the reply!
    Pretty much what I was expecting, based on the info in the thread. And since it got me in a thinking mode about it, I remembered that at 96K (4 years) due to a leaky wheel cylinder both were replaced. My guess is that such repair wouldn't be possible without some loss of fluid, so some of it might have been replaced. Looked up the invoice and it lists a quart of brake fluid. Will look up my Repair Manual to see what the capacity of the system is and if that repair requires drain/flush too. If not, will go and get it done immediately.
    Thank You!
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    Read this article I wrote a few years ago. It dealt mainly with glycol vs silicone fluid, but contains relevent information:

    http://www.troublecodes.net/articles/brkfld.shtml
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yup, that about covers it. Good job. ;)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Great info for all hydraulic brake users, Alcan. I'm sending the URL to a friend with a new Suzuki.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    That is good article about brake fluid. It covers most of the basics. I especially like your comment on HD specifying DOT5 (silicone) brakefluid due to concerns with other fluids hurting the paintjob.

    One addition that could be made to the article might be the explanation as to why most manufacturers DO NOT specify DOT5 (silicone) brakefluid. At first blush, it seems that DOT5 brakefluid would be the best choice for every situation... NOT TRUE! It is because DOT5 fluid IS NOT hydroscopic (cannot absorb water).

    DOT3 and DOT4 brakefluids have the ability to absorb water. (hygroscopic -or- hydroscopic) This helps PROTECT the internal hydrolic components by keeping the water in suspension.... as long as the brakefluid is changed before it gets saturated with water.

    The DOT5 fluid has no such ability thus allows even the smallest amount of water to migrate to the lowest point of the hydrolic system. These free water droplets corrode the internal components quickly.
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    It's my understanding the main problem with DOT 5 silicone fluid is that it DOES absorb AIR.

    And when it heats up, the air comes out of solution, you have a compressible air pocket in the line, and the brakes are gone. Just like having a compressible pocket of steam from absorbed water when it heats up.
  • sky23213sky23213 Member Posts: 300
    Thank You, this summed up very nicely the things I learned from this thread!
    As I mentioned before, I had some work done a year ago and about a quart of fluid was listed as added/replaced. The Manual does not give me the capacity of the system though, and I didn't trust that shop anyway. So, since I take no chances (and no expense spared) on tires and brakes, I had the brake system flushed this morning. :)
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Good plan! Don't overlook that a good flush and cleaning could conceivably use more fluid than the final fill. Flushing thoroughly could push up the volume considerably.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Is any DOT 3 brake fluid essentially the same? My Ford manual says to use Ford High Performance DOT brake fluid or DOT 3 fluid meeting Ford spec ESA-M6C25-A. Does that spec mean anything or will anything labeled DOT 3 meet it?
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Any DOT3 (or DOT4) approved brake fluid would suffice.

    I have pasted below some details


    * DOT3: Brake Fluid Grade - Minimum dry boiling point = 205degC / 401degF. Minimum wet boiling point = 140degC / 284degF. Aliphatic polyether-based, can be mixed with DOT4, characteristics will be (linearly) in between DOT3 / DOT4 parameters. Cheap, most widely used, eats paint, absorbs water easily, eats natural rubber seals.

    * DOT4: Brake Fluid Grade - Minimum dry boiling poin t=230degC / 446 degF. Minimum wet boiling point = 155degC / 311degF. Borate ester based, can be mixed with DOT3, characteristics will be (linearly) in between DOT3/DOT4 parameters. 50% more expensive than DOT3, eats paint, significantly increased resistance to moisture absorption compared to DOT3 (but still absorbs water), does not eat natural rubber seals.

  • solidsnake4119solidsnake4119 Member Posts: 2
    Hi, yes I have a problem with my Toyota Corolla 2001 with its braking. Well, its something to do with that. I have a video on Youtube showing the noises it makes when I brake. Please someone help me before I go to a mechanic so I dont get ripped off. Sorry but I don't know anything about cars.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nix3L6hLKas
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    It sounds like metal-on-metal... you better get your brakes looked at pronto. You should expect to be buying new brake bads and rotors.

    Also, you did not mention how many miles you have on the current brakes. Does your state have annual manditory inspections? If not, then you may not have a clue what to expect when it is looked at.

    There is an outside chance this is actually wheel-bearings or ConstantVelocity joint (and not brakes). The reason I say this is because you said that the sound changes when you turn and go up ramps (and DO NOT touch the brakes)
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    While it's hard to say what the problem is based upon your video, I think it's pretty easy to say what it isn't; your brakes.

    "It's not the brakes?" You ask in surprise.

    Nope, most likely not.

    Other likely suspects are the CV joints, the tires, the transmission, and way, WAY down the list would be severely worn brake pads. My suggestion is for you to take your car to a competent mechanic. I'll bet he/she can diagnose the problem in about five minutes.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Does it do it more when you turn or when you stop?

    I can't really tell from the video...

    If it is kind of a clicking noise when you turn then it is proabably CV joints.
  • solidsnake4119solidsnake4119 Member Posts: 2
    It does it more when you stop. On occassion it makes that noise from turning. Im not even sure if its the brakes that are causing it. I was thinking it would be the transmission. it makes a grumbling noise, like rough material scraping on metal.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I agree with shippo the clicking noise sounds like a classis CV joint failure in the making.

    Ask some buddies or possibly better ask your buddy's parents to get a refferal to a good independent mechanic.

    They should be able to tell you exactly what it is.
  • tbbarrow2000tbbarrow2000 Member Posts: 1
    i drive a 95 mazda protege...my brake lines started squirtig (not leaking) near my back right wheel when i hit the pedal...i know the line needs to be replaced, but could anyone give a hint as to how much i should expet to pay? i don't really trust the mechanic i went to for my last brake work...i paid a lot for some minor repairs...thanks
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    It is not reasonable to expect us to give you a definitive number. Anyone who works on your brakes should have your SAFETY (and lawsuits) formost in his mind. Thus, they will err on the SAFE side and often do more than the minimum needed to get you rolling again. For safetys sake, when one brake line is in the conditon you describe, then they ALL need to be considerd for for replacement.

    It is often suggested to consider replacing the automobile because this is not the last of the problems due to corrosion.

    With that said, I replaced a rusted brake line on a much-loved, irreplacable, Volkswagen Rabbit Pickup truck. It cost me about $10 for 3 feet of brake line and took me about an hour to install and bleed the brakes. It lasted the 2 years I owned the vehicle (but a lot of other things needed to be replaced in that timeframe.)
  • song77song77 Member Posts: 2
    I have a 1999 Buick Regal and the Anti lock brakes are all messed up. How can I disable the Anti lock brakes until I can fix them?
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    If the ABS light is on, it is disabled.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wish I had said that :P
  • caddyjcaddyj Member Posts: 1
    I love my 95 Cadillac STS but I have a problem
    the rims and wheels on the front are hot and
    there is a smell like something burning. I just
    started noticing it but I am scare to drive the
    car. Odd things is I just had the pads replaced
    and the rotors turned 6 weeks ago. I called the
    dealership that did the work and they act like this lady doesn't know what she is talking about.
    It happened about 4 years ago I took it into a
    shop and the brakes were worn bad.. he fixed them
    and the problem stopped....Could the emergency brake
    be stuck on? I am just real curious because
    axles, rims and tires are hot enough to burn your hand. Help ! ...caddyj
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the dealership...DUH...has this device called a pyrometer that can measure the temperature of a metal object in about two seconds and I don't see why they couldn't bend their knees and just help you out for a minute and read the temps on your rotors to see if you have a problem or not. Possibilities are a) nothing at all, you're fine; b)you have a sticking or dragging brake caliper; c) you have a crimped brake line that prevents release of brake pressure after you take your foot off; d) you have a defective brake master cylinder doing the same thing as the crimped brake line.

    That's about all I can think of....oh, a stuck emergency brake...unusual but sure, why not? Of course that would only affect two wheels.

    I think if you called the service manager and politely used words like "danger", "safety" and "fire", you'll get a response...NOT that this would happen to you, but it gets their attention...and really, overheated brakes ARE dangerous in that they can eventually "fade" from heat---the symptom of brake fade would be a hard pedal but no matter how hard you push, the car doesn't stop very well...
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Since you say the FRONT wheels are getting hot... it is unlkely this is related to emergancy-brake cable. (which acts on the REAR brakes)

    I have had this happen many times to me after replacing front pads. The problem is the CALIPERS are sticking.

    This happens because when the calipers are pressed in when the new pads are installed, there is some corrosion on the sides of the pistons which now tend to bind up inside the cylinders.

    The only lasting fix for this problem is to replace the calipers.
  • ekalb2616ekalb2616 Member Posts: 2
    My 95 Suzuki Sidekick' brakes keep locking up everytime I drive it. It will start out fine but the longer a period of time I drive it the more the brakes lock up. Sometimes I cant even get over 30mph. I've had hoses replaced, new calipers, and a different master cylinder put in. Although, I have began to doubt the abilty of the mechanics. It may just be that the mechanics are messing it up. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Are you suggesting that the brakes on all 4 wheels are dragging? If so, then the problem is NOT any of the wheels so replacing hoses and calipers was a waste of time and $$.

    Even the master-cylinder is not capable of making all 4 wheels do this. (the hydrolic system is seperated into 2 systems - each feeding 2 wheels)

    The main thing that could cause ALL 4 WHEELS to drag is the vacuum-booster. It is curious that your "mechanic" does not know this.

    If you vehicle has ABS, then it should also be checked.
  • ekalb2616ekalb2616 Member Posts: 2
    I dont know if it is all 4 wheels, but it does lock up pretty tight so i doubt it isnt all four. We removed the vacuum completely and the brakes were still locking up. Maybe it could be that we didnt give it enough to release the brakes.

    What could be wrong with the ABS? Just asking. I dont know a lot about ABS.

    Thank you, bpeebles for your input.
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    The reason I mention ABS is because the ABS system has the ability to apply/depressurize the brakes.... if the ABS components get corrosion in them, they could inadverantly apply the brakes and cause the problem you are seeing.

    You should be able to VERY easilly tell which brakes are dragging. When you think the problem is happenging, Gently feel for heat in the lugnuts on each wheel. The wheels with the dragging brakes will have VERY hot lugnuts. (beware - dont burn yourself)
  • fordhorrorfordhorror Member Posts: 20
    1) I chnaged front brakes (rotors and pads)5 months ago. The guy who did it did not convince me he did a good job. I am hearing squealing now and when i hit the brakes in the snow, the pedal goes way below and i feel like its slipping and grinding. Not sure what it is. but is scary. Any idea what the real problem is.

    2)am hearing a squealing noise under the hood, seems like coming from the pulley or the belts. any idea what the real propblem is.

    3) Is it possible for me to replace the a/c belt, alternator belt, fan belt by myself. is it too risky or easy??

    Thanks in advance.

    3) C
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    1) The 'slipping and grinding' in the snow may just be your ABS working correctly. When a tire starts to lock up and skip, ABS will 'pump' that wheel in order to stop the skip and allow directional control of the steering. You probably can also 'feel' the brake pulsing thru the brake pedal when this happens.
  • fordhorrorfordhorror Member Posts: 20
    Thanks, that was a lot of help.
    any idea if i can change my belts myself...
  • bolivarbolivar Member Posts: 2,316
    Just a minute here...
    Let me place my forehead on my monitor screen..
    OK.

    I can read your mind. It's pretty easy because it's late at night and you are asleep. But because of your excessive snoring, I can't determine your mechanical abilities.

    I can see your car. I can look under the hood. Oh, wait! It's dark. I can't really see those belts.

    So, you are out of luck on me deciding if you can change those belts.

    A non-comic (sarcastic?) comment about belts. I remember a belt that required loosing 3 nuts/bolts. Each of these was a different size. One was metric and 2 were english sized. A belt can be simple to rather nasty.
  • fordhorrorfordhorror Member Posts: 20
    Thanks.
    but any idea why i hear the squeal under the hood??
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