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Comments
Gothica: I have not driven a W12, but coming from a Lexus LS430UL, the base V8 Phaeton is one heck of a car and a great deal unheard of in this category. The ride of the car is very comfortable and yet firm at the same time, like the sport setting on the LS430UL. The tracking precision of the car is phenomenal, which is even more noticeable in inclement weather. The four wheel drive allows one to make full use of the power where other cars will have to cut down on the power to keep traction control.
I will post my impressions after putting on the first 1000 miles.
VWGuild: My layman's use of 4 wheel drive was literal: I consider that all four wheels are getting engine power, hence it is four wheel drive. I do however appreciate your correction.
Whatever it is called, it works great! In the snow, wet roads, even dry roads, I can floor the car and it will go like crazy without any tires squealing. My Lexus had to reduce power to make it through, or if I switched off the TCS, the tires would draw unwelcome attention.
Happy New Year!!!
Is there any truth to these claims?
And, how much below invoice are the V8's going for?
Thanks.
No truth whatsoever regarding the production of this automobile being terminated...I have two 2005s sold and two more on order, and one in my garage...
VWGuild, your posts are always informative. I don't mean to beat a dead horse here, but would appreciate any insight on an issue I have asked about in posts in the past. My 04 V8 has a definte waver (not sure the best way to describe it other than to note it is the opposite of smooth) take off from stop or low speed when in drive (as opposed to sport where I don't notice it). I think it is due to the transmission rushing through the gears to get to 5th and 6th so quickly that it does not spend enough time in 2-3 gears. I watch the tach as it revs up and drops in a matter a second or two as the car changes gears and the process of that change seems to cause the accelaration to "waver". It's just kind of jerky. Do you have any thoughts on this? Is it a programable issue that could be cleared up by resetting the "learning" mode of the car?
And, as always, I am curious if the Nav system has any upgrades coming. I saw my friends Audi A8 yesterday and his Nav system shows the names of the roads, even when no destination is set.
Thanks for any help
To not start anyone off on the wrong path -- this "tip lag" is not unique to Audi or VW. Some of us think it is a flaw, others think of it as a feature.
Car and Driver magazine spoke about the tiptronic programming as a relentless urge to upshift (apparently to save a drop or three of fuel.)
I find the tip's desire to upshift, prematurely, a feature I would like to be able to bypass. The only way I know to bypass this feature is to run the transmission in S mode and then when you hit the open freeway, shift to D mode.
The "reset" procedure is a topic of some recent posts over on the new A6 Audi board here on edmunds.
Hope this helps.
I drive my PHAETON & Passats in the Tip mode ALL
of the time and therefore, as Mark has indicated,
do not experience this idiosyncrasy...
The NAV situation with PHAETON is a complicated one...This NAV System, as well as the Upgraded Sound System, has been an integral component since late 2001 when the 2002s were first introduced in Europe, and I suspect that there are some contractural arrangements with Bosch/Blaupunkt that cannot be changed at the drop of a hat or when the next tech innovation happens to come along. Bluetooth is being integrated as a running change on 5 passenger PHAETONS as an option, and DVD will be the Standard in the A5 Jetta & B6 Passat NAV option packages.
I do know that a DVD upgrade is out of the question on 2004 & for the current run of 2005s...financially prohibitive. The big question, of course, is when Bosch will get the DVD components. I say this because I do not believe that VWAG is prepared to sacrifice the Sound System, nor am I for that matter.
For now, consider it all "a work in progress" and that for most of us the original NAV...The folding kind that was stored in the Glovebox...worked just fine for decades...:) I know I spent hour after hour learning how to use them at Quantico 40 years ago...
Hope to see you there!
Thanks for the information. I realize this forum could take up all your time getting info back to us owners. As you have probably guessed by now, that average VW dealership is not too well versed on the car.
So, at the risk of wearing out your good nature, a follow up or two.
Agreed, driving in Tip or sport shows no symptoms of the lag. But, it would be nice to be able to cruise in a smooth fashion just like my neighbor in his LS430. I tried the fix described on the Audi forum of turning on the key, not starting the car yet, pressing the gas to the floor, then the brake then starting the car to see if it went away in Drive. It did not make any difference from what I could tell.
I can't believe the guys in the white coats in Germany aren't aware of this rather large issue regarding ride quality in normal "Drive". It is hard to believe that someone with the "drivers wanted" mind set in engineering isn't doing something to address this, from either the VW or Audi side. It is a major shortcoming for a high end Luxocruiser, agreed? Do dealers like you pass this info back to the suits in Dresden?
On the Nav, I didn't have any real dream that they were going to offer to rip out the old system and put in a new one, but I sort of hoped that as a DVD based tool, new disks may be the answer to the system keeping the driver informed of the road names and other details that are lacking compared to other systems I have used. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my Acura DMX always displays the map with just about every road named that is on the screen. Very helpful even when out for a Sunday drive.
And while I have you, what's the wire laying in the center armrest for?? I am guessing it is a cell phone hook up. And any chance that sat. radio will be an option to install on my 04 in the future.
As always, thanks a million!
I can only assume that what worked in my Audi A8, and three A6's (2 with the 4.2L V8 with the 5spd tip) "ought" to work on a Phaeton.
And, I agree the "engineers" ought to know about this "feature" and it's popularity (or lack thereof).
Yet, my buddies BMW X5 has the same darn lag -- but he drives it in manumatic mode 90% of the time, so it is not an issue for him.
And, my other friend's Acura has a similar "feature" -- so claiming that it affects NOT the Japanese cars (perhaps the Lexus has been spared) may or may not be correct.
I read a post from an ex-MB owner who bemoaned the lag in his departed Merc.
This "lag" and who knows why -- seems to be part and parcel of the new automatic, autmotive landscape.
As I read this I realize this may sound like a defense -- it is not intended to be thus.
Perhaps the soich for mo' economy and a smoother shift is the culprit (and perhaps DSG allieviates this "feature" -- one can only hope.)
just wondering exactly how the tiplag feels? is it a delay when starting from a stop or is it a delay during upshifts, say from 3rd to 4th gear?
i have read your posts in the audi forum where you had stated that the 8 cylinder audis were not nearly as affected as the 6 cylinder audis.
the reason i ask is that the "waver" described seems similar to upshifts through the gears when in drive as i experienced when i first drove my phaeton. the driver expects progressive acceleration but the shift-happy transmission seems to "waver" and deplete power delivery as it shifts up through the gears. but my car had never been driven in the drive mode much before and i have found that as the transmission adapts to my driving style the "waver" has been significantly reduced.
of course, there is no "waver" when using sport or tip shifting.
It is annoying -- it is largely Pavlovian -- but it is I, not the car that salivates when the bell rings.
Instead of me training the tiptronic, the tip trained me (I fought the law and the law won.)
I believe this is part of the perfect circle of tiptronic transmission laws (a la I-Robot) where the first law is "under all circumstances, moving to a higher gear is the prime directive;" the second law is "obey the position of the accelerator pedal if that does not conflict with the first law -- check first, accelerate later, that is;" and the third law is "accelerate briskly only if prodded into doing so by an aggressively pushed accelerator pedal -- but only to the extent that this law does not conflict with either the first or the second laws -- in other words rapid acceleration is allowed but check first, unless taking off from a full stop under full throttle."
And, unlike I-Robot, there is no provision to "not kill" a human -- which, under extreme lag conditions actually could happen.
Train your Tip early and often and you will be fine.
Or. . .
Go on-line and you will find a "tip chip" which will (or can) mitigate tip lag for the most part to a benign (and distant memory) "feature."
The waver that you describe sounds just like mine, and I have written too much about it already. Will wait and see if it is similar to markcincinnati as well, although his description sounds more like lack of power at very low speeds.
Mine is much more about a waver from around 15/20 mph to the next perhaps 25 to 30 mph. I have tried to drive and watch the tach closely and I think it is the same issue you note, the car just wants to race through the upshifts and get you in to 5th or 6th. The 1-2-3-4 gears are covered so fast that the result is just not smooth. A real bummer for a $60+K car. Sport mode fixes it, but it is a gas draining solution, and it would be nice to drive use drive mode when not in a hurry.
Too many owners from VW and Audi seem to note this issue for me to understand why there is not a well known fix from the manufacturer. It sure sounds like it could be programmed away.
Folks here have suggested or put forth the argument that we recent car owners are "enjoying" either transmission lag (due to programming designed to upshift asap) DBW (drive by wire) lag (which is due to the fact that the accelerator pedal only indirectly causes fuel to be sent to the engine, a computer "interprets" the driver's intention, i.e., and there is an inherent lag) or a combination of throttle and tip lag -- sometimes exacerbated in VW / Audi products that have turbocharged engines (thus adding a slight bit of "turbo lag.")
I believe it could be programmed away -- but what IF I am correct that it is a "feature" -- a feature that produces unintended consequences (i.e., lag as a by-product of a shift program that attempts to be "smooth" and "provide MAXIMUM fuel efficiency"?)
It can be programmed away -- it is called buying a tiptronic [aftermarket] chip. Several vendors have developed their own tiptronic algorithms and put them in an eprom (or perhaps it is just a rom chip) that goes into your engine managment system's controller.
Thanks in advance
So far does it seems that the Phaeton will sell at about the same pace in 2005 as it did in 2004?
I wish I had waited and bought a WHITE 2005 with cell phone. It just makes me angry VW didn't make accomodations (even retrofit) for a phone on the 2004s. Based on what I know, it would be cheaper to trade in and get a 2005 than to change out the infotainment module. It is very expensive. As far as the NAV, I really don't have a problem with that issue even knowing it is inferior to other cars. I think it works just fine.
David
BASE PRICE W12 2005 is $96,100.00 before Gas tax & Destinations and without options...
Have a good time at the show!!!
email doug@tirerack.com
He is familiar with the vehicle and very knowledgeable about tires and wheels. Pressure sensor is an issue to be aware of for instance
Good Luck!
There are many (200?) programs built into the tiptronic (and remember several auto mfg's source tip or at least tip-like manumatics from the same manufacturer -- although I am led to conclude that the actual software is created [tweaked, perhaps?] by the end manufacturer) and these programs attempt to account for many kinds of driving styles. But even though the transmission is said to be a learning transmission, I cannot imagine anyone bold enough to currently call the transmission "AI" (artificial intelligence.)
Each addition of another gear, another shift program and other tricks to make the shifts less perceptible seems to improve, slightly, the lag issue. It does appear that the "S" as in S6, S8, or RS6 program cars have "crisper" upshifts and, IMO, THAT is the primary reason for the substantially reduced tip lag in these cars. Putting the selector in "S" (sport) mode seems to override the relentless pursuit of the next higher gear, sooner rather than later -- but at the cost of: #1 slightly decreased fuel economy; & #2 slightly increased "shift perception."
The DSG transmission (and clearly the CVT or multi-tronic) cures the lag issues, but apparently these two technologies are not "strong" enough for quattro (in the case of CVT) or the higher torque engines (applicable, I believe to both DSG and CVT).
The fact that the VW group "claims" to be aware of this "feature" of the tiptronic, I take as a good sign. However, the fact that this has been the case since 1997 (or at least that is when I first noticed it), does not make me sanguine for a quick resolution.
My preference would be for DSG or CVT, if such technologies can be made robust enough for duty with the 4.2 or other high torque engines -- AND the offering of a 6 speed manual (like the current S4 has in it.)
I suspect some would balk at the notion of a Phaeton or Audi A8 with a clutch pedal, but I think the things would have a waiting line for buyers (due perhaps, I'll admit, to the novelty aspect, but nevertheless a line.)
It has NOT been all that long ago that the flagship cars from Audi and BMW offered manual transmissions -- and interesting to note that the CTS-V Cadillac comes with a stick shift.
Not too many years ago, I was in Munich and rented a "big" Mercedes (I can't remember the designation or model name/number) -- I got in it and noted it was a stick shift; ditto with European rental BMW's and Audis (but I know that the big top 'o the line cars now are only auto -- and more's the pity.)
For $50 to $100,000 cars to have such funky (automatic) transmissions is disappointing, to say the least.
Cell Phone Prep is available today on 5 Passenger
PHAETON orders (9ZH) $385.00. I cannot confirm or deny info on the DVD NAV...
Seems that you are having issues with your BMW as well...Things can only get better!
Actually from what I have read, there appear to be a couple of really satisfactory aftermarket applications...The Parrot 3100 among them.
Car has a lot of hits on the 'free' carfax lookup.
i have the sports suspension with the 20 inchers.
a little rough ,but nice. you can feel a dime if you ride over it.
go to the infinity site and you will learn all about it.
also to the person who asked if the phaeton will be discontinued..............
all i read is the the hwad os audi usa was fired for saying that the biggest mistake vw did was to put the vw name on the phaeton, and ,the other mistake is to sell it through vw dealers....covered in AUTOWEEK.
AS AN ASIDE , the vw phaeton with a shorter wheelbase and disguised as the bentley continental is a great looker...almost all parts are pure phaeton including 90% of the interior.
have not heard much about reliability problems with this car as yet ,but for 160,000 it better be clean .
now, had vw done more work on the car --phaeton-- before releasing it to the public and badge it a bentley jr. ,who knows ,maybe a winner..........but then again ,who wants to fall into the hands of bentley dealers........
if you are commenting on public perception, ok; but if you are commenting on the actual driving experience, then i am curious about your response.
fyi, i have one and believe it is an amazing vehicle, especially for the $. just the mere fact that multiple independent testers have said it is competitive with the established luxury cars, (some say it is better) makes me wonder about your comment.
i have owned mb, bmw, infiniti before and they all had faults, especially the dealers and service with the first 2. infiniti service was great. i didn't find any of these 3 to have what i wanted although i really checked out the fx45 and cay s closely before making my decision
the 7 series and s class were either design nightmares or downright unreliable.
no flame here, just curious.
thx
bobp7
Hope this helps.
it is a rainy day here in fla.so i am at the computer.only catch me here on rainy or nothing to do days.
yes i have ridden it .actually ,more often than i have posted.
the reason is (for all the test rides )that i fell in love with this car ,and wanted to buy one. still do. but became desillusioned with it ,and worse ,with the dealers.
the first ride i took ,the car would oversteer to such a degree ,around a circle that it would just not turn in.
it is a great car for the trips that i take from vermont , and conn. to florida.
even thou i used to hold a pvt. pilot license i do not enjoy the flying crowd and the airports nowadays and terefore i take this drive 4 times per year minimun. ( my wife refuses to get into a pvt.plane with me ).
i thought that this would be the car.
the comments that you made about mb,bmw also apply to me.specially bmw ,it is no longer a drive's car.
i have driven extensively the 7 and new 6 and 5 and fine for a short hop. but no fun any longer.
i found the most satysfying of all the 5 series with the standard steering not the electric assisted one. and this ,is not really a bmw any longer )
and mb has begun manufacturing cars to a price point instead of to satisfy a need.except for the maybach and this one is the other extreme.took one for a drive and it is nice ,but.......
i still do own a number of cars from the above ,but older models that perform to my satisfaction.
i also do a lot of driving in europe and have done some rallying there.
of course ,car selection over there is much different than here with the max.speed at 80 mph.
and my favorite car right now and has been for some time is the saab 9.5 aero,as well as the fx35.
and ,by the way ,i still like the phaeton. for autobahn,or interstate cruising in the usa is great. but,always the but,it is a car to go straight forward only. and when service knocks ,the dealers...........
and, i took the new bentley conti for an extended drive and please note that this is not a pure bentley..it is a vw phaeton on a shorter wheelbase ,in disguise.
great looker.............have seen many around here in the past few days........
The Phaeton certainly does UNDERSTEER, but from what I have read (and from my personal drives in the fraternal twin Audi A8L) the understeer is only a problem if the car is really being pushed hard to do somewhat "unnatural acts."
The Phaeton is softer, cushier etc than the Audi, but again from what I have read it does comport itself decently when compared with its competitors.
The Phaeton is a luxury car that has a little hint of sport in it. Reading as many test reports as I can get my hands on, NEVER does the author claim oversteer.
thx for the thoughtful response. good to hear you have actually driven the car because many have made comments having no driving experience with it.
no doubt the phaeton is not a sports car and needs to be viewed as a luxury vehicle with some sporting overtones. the biggest change in moving from the 740 to the phaeton was the loss of that connected to the road and steering feel you get in the bmw. while the vw fails to equal bmw in that regard i must say it is competitive or superior in many others. and if you turn up the sensitivity settings on your finger tip nerve endings you can feel things through the steering wheel. for the driving i do, i find the phaeton can handle adequately. you know, i just didn't understand why the "enth" degree of performance didn't matter to my father when i was younger - now i get it!
i also agree with you about the new bmw's. i expected to end up in another bmw but watching friends with their 5 and 7 series, and having driven them and interacted with i-drive (i am in tech for a living) i knew a bmw solution was not in the cards except for the x5 - and there i didn't want something about to be replaced. (truth be told, i loved the fx45 and came really close to getting that). i also was interested in the cayenne s but felt that they were still working their way through early production issues.
in the end the phaeton won me over with the value proposition. i wanted an all-wheel drive v8 vehicle. in the phaeton i also got a beautifully designed and crafted german luxury car that puts a smile on my face every time i turn the key.
ymmv!
i posted and did not read it through .
and bopp7 if you love it ,enjoy it. i too think that it is a great car.
but when i buy a car i have to think of what to do if it breaks down during one of my trips through the mountains ,etc...not that the infinity or saab are any better,but with the infinity anyhow,i feel secure that it is not going to leave me stranded.
and if you have ever driven ---the dragon.. and the cherohala parkway you will understand why i insist that my cars have to handle.........
check this out ..
www.tailofthedragon.com/
if you are ever in that area ,do not miss it.
i usually do it in a motorcycle,but at times the car will do.