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Questions About Auto Insurance and Accidents

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  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Comprehensive also includes Animal Collision in addition to other than collision situations that happen suddenly and accidentally. Falling objects, Glass breakage, Earthquake, Flood, just to name a few. Comp premiums are low because the incidence of claims is low. Say the vehicle is worth $4,000. The collision deductible is $500, the premium is $50 and when the car is totaled a salvage yard will give you up to 25% for the remains. With only Comp you save the premium, have the deductible, & get up to $1,000 for the remains. So why spend $50 to insure a net of $2450?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Hey Joe, I don't know the answer either. Maybe someone here will take a stab at it. I'll repeat if for you here:

    Here's a question though, what if a driver causes damages which all parties agree are clearly far in excess of his policy limits?
    Would his company voluntarily pay (even before a lawsuit or trial) the limit only if the victim would sign a full release protecting its insured? That is, would the company, in exchange for the policy limit payment, require the victim to agree not to pursue any further claim against its insured? Or, would the company be satisfied in only getting a receipt for for the amount paid (before a lawsuit or trial) to the victim, leaving open the possibility of legal action against its insured for some additional amount? And in that case (no release), would the company still pay for the defense of its driver (after paying the limit) if a lawsuit was filed later?
  • noaagirlnoaagirl Member Posts: 16
    Why? That's the crux of my question is how to figure out what the right limits are for one's situation. My DH and I have about ~$1M in total assets (house, savings, retirement, etc) but don't have a lot of risk factors (drive fewer than 10 miles a day on average, not high-end cars, decent driving history/record, no kids, dogs, no business in house, etc). We believe that our risks are higher from external forces (being hit by a U/U/I driver, theft or vandelism, hitting a deer) but we realize that it's probably a common belief. MD's minimum limits are 20/40/15 (I think) which is pretty low, and I think we both have 100/300/50 or something like that on our cars currently. How do you take a look at the big picture and decide what's the right coverage level?
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    I'd expect in that case that the ins co cuts the check and has the injured party sign something that only lets the ins co off the hook, not the party insured. The injured party then can only go sue the insured party who is left on their own. And why would the ins co pay for the defense of a claim that is clearly above and beyond the policy limits after writing a check for the limit?
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, the company has to act in the best interests of its insured, not itself, right? And if the company could settle the claim within policy limits, getting a full release, that would be best. Second best for the insured would be a paid defense in court and then, if necessary, payment of the policy limit to protect the insured at least for that amount. Third best would be for the company to immediately pay the policy limit and leave the insured to fend for himself if the injured person takes him to trial.

    My question is whether a company would choose or even have a fourth option. That option would be pay the policy limit to appease the injured party (WITHOUT getting a full release) in hopes that the victime would not file suit or would dismiss any suit already filed. If the victim does go ahead and sue the insured, then the company could still offer a defense to the insured at no cost to him. Anyone ever hear of this happening?

    By the way, the injured party would never sue the bad driver's insurance company because the company did nothing to cause damages to the victim. But, if the insurance company screws up and does not properly protect its insured as required by the contract and the laws of the state, then the bad driver might sue his OWN insurance company for bad faith and get a truckload of money. If won, a bad faith action judgment big enough to punish the insurance company is often awarded to the cheated insured; the richer the company, the bigger the award.

    But getting back to the original scenario, I was thinking that if the insurance company could not get a full release to protect its insured, then maybe the only ethical thing it could do would be to try the case with its own lawyer and work to get a finding favorable to its insured, either not responsible or responsible for the least amount possible. And in a case like that, the insurance company would probably advise their insured that he might want to hire his own lawyer too since any amount over the policy limit could cause a world of hurt and inconvenience for the insured.

    Any insurance defense lawyers (or anyone else) out there know the answers?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    how do you explain the dented and twisted sheet metal?

    easy! The crook/thief who stole the vehicle must of crashed it!

    This is no different then someone who owns an old clunker that all of a sudden needs 4K in repairs to bring it back into proper running condition. The car might be worth 3K. What do you do? Of course, have it stolen and burned. You get 3K less your 500 dollar deductible and don't have to spend a dime in repairs!

    I'm sure this has happened thousands and thousands of times.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, if you decide to do it, do not tell anyone. That is, unless you are looking for free room and board furnished by the state.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Because Collision only comes into play when you turn into a bad driver and are at fault in a collision. You dont' need this coverage if your not going to go around and cause accidents.

    If you are an excellent driver, are careful, and attentive while driving, there is no need for this coverage. You are in control while you are driving your vehicle.

    Comprehensive, on the other hand, is out of your control. Your vehicle being stolen is out of your control. Your vehicle getting struck by lightning is out of your control. Vandalism is out of your control. Uninsured motorists are out of your control.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    hahahahhaha :)

    I never said it was the right or honest thing to do! ;)

    And I never said I've done it, or would do it, but I know it happens.

    It's people that are dishonest that help to make insurance far too expensive. But I think the insurance companies themselves are far more dishonest than the most dishonest Americans.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Unless you are in a state that allows some type of uninsured motorist coverage which pays for damage to your car, then you may need collision coverage to protect you against loss when an uninsured person rams into your nice expensive car.
    My state allows un- and under-insured motorist coverages which only pay in case of injuries. They do nothing to pay for you car when damaged by an uninsured motorist.

    (notice I did not say "if" an uninsured motorist hits you, I said "when". I believe "when", unfortunately, is the only correct choice. And when I type uninsured, you should read it as un- or under-insured.)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    CA allows UMBI (uninsured injury claims; which by the way, is one in a million) and UMPD (uninsured property damage claims; which will always happen to everyone out there) to be purchased separately.

    If you don't have collision, then you can only get $3,500 worth of UMPD coverage, which is fine for a 10 or more year old vehicle, but not good for a new one!!

    What I'm saying is they should let you get UMPD for the value of your vehicle or any amount you wish! Why force someone to get collision coverage just to cover uninsured motorists?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,833
    We are back to lighting the car on fire..

    You wreck your car, then claim someone did a hit and run... you claim against UMPD, instead of carrying collision.

    Imagine what the rates would be for UMPD?

    Insurance is necessary.. It isn't only for bad drivers.

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Ahhh, but there in lies the trick insurance companies use to combat that plan and theory of yours.

    If you get a license plate number from that hit and run driver then it is a UMPD claim.

    If you don't get the license plate number from that car thats speeding away, then you have a "collision" claim.

    That is why I advocate taking the law into your own hands if someone tries to or attempts to run from an accident scene. I will be in red hot pursuit of you if you try and run, I guarantee it.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I should have added the word "coverage" after each "collision" in my previous statement. Collision coverage only applies if you are unable to get the uninsured driver's license plate number.

    If you are quick on your feet, and get the license plate number, (at all costs), then the UMPD will apply and "collision coverage" won't apply, and therefore, is not needed.

    I always instruct new drivers, friends, family, ALWAYS, always get the license plate number of the vehicle that hits you, that is the FIRST thing you do, the absolute first thing, if they run, chase them down and write down that license plate number; then, and only then, may you cease the pursuit.

    However, if your feeling particularly Johnny Law... keep following them, while dialing 911, and tell them where he is as you follow, as soon as you see a patrol car catch up and intervene, you can cease the pursuit.

    By not doing the above you are letting the Insurance Company crooks off the hook. Besides, its probably Insurance company employees that are the one's driving around and doing hit and runs! ;)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Because Collision only comes into play when you turn into a bad driver and are at fault in a collision. You dont' need this coverage if your not going to go around and cause accidents.

    If you are an excellent driver, are careful, and attentive while driving, there is no need for this coverage. You are in control while you are driving your vehicle.


    I disagree, that is bad advice. So many things can happen to even a good driver . There are unforseen weather conditions, mechanical problems, road debris, tire blowouts, etc, that even the best driver could not avoid. Any savings in collision premiums are vastly offset. Now if you drive beaters, then that's a different story.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I disagree, that is bad advice. So many things can happen to even a good driver . There are unforseen weather conditions, mechanical problems, road debris, tire blowouts, etc, that even the best driver could not avoid. Any savings in collision premiums are vastly offset. Now if you drive beaters, then that's a different story.

    I will attack this in chronological order.

    1. Unforseen Weather Conditions - This must be when lighting strikes your car, because as far as I know, I always see the rain clouds coming before the rain falls, and therefore, slow down when it's raining, a good driver would do this.

    2. Mechanical Problems - stop driving a beater or unreliable vehicle. Any Honda or Toyota owner doesn't worry about this one. If you know your vehicle is old and falling apart, perhaps you should driver "slower." A good driver would either driver slower or not at all in a bad car.

    3. Road Debris - Swerve around them. If you are driving a Buick that handles like a tank then driver slower, a good driver doesn't drive faster than his or her vehicle can handle. Sudden road debri? Okay, now this might fall into comprehensive? I'm not sure how the division in the "gray" area works between collision and comprehensive. Either way, this is a highly unlikely event, and again, chances are a good driver will be able to maneuver around it.

    4. Tire Blowouts - Never happened to me yet. Never happened to anyone that was driving while I was in the car as a passenger. I've never heard of this happening to anyone I know. A good driver would not be driving on bald overworn tires, or punctured tires (for extended periods of time). If this is from a tire defect, well then, sue the Tire Manufacturer, they are at fault.

    I believe the fact is you'd see a massive reduction in accidents if Insurance didn't exist for automobiles. This would be because everyone would have a greater financial "stake" in their own driving abilities. Some people just look at Insurance as a "safety net" for their own poor driving habits and abilities. Who cares if I rearend a brand new Lexus, I have insurance, that's what it's for; is far too many peoples attitude.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Unforeseen Weather Conditions

    The "bolt out of the blue" saying has an underlying factual basis. (Another link)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Out of curiosity the article didn't say (or I DIDN'T SEE IT) how you die from lightning?

    Do you electrocute to death? Or burn to death? Or are you cut in half?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Here's one autopsy summary from another victim.

    My point is that you can't foresee everything that could happen to you while driving a car (if you think you can, you are likely overconfident and at risk from that factor).

    And that's why I bother with car insurance.

    Steve, visiting host
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Any way you slice it - you're dead. :sick:
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I'm not saying you never need some type/form of insurance, I'm just saying the current setup is broken.

    All of the insurance companies currently existing should cease to exist, we need to start from scratch.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    "Table for andres3, party of one."

    'nuff said.

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  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    1. Unforeseen weather conditions. You must be on a planet where the only bad weather is rain. In case you've never seen it, there is also snow and ice, oh and black ice as well. And here in Florida the rain can be torrential.

    2. Mechanical problems. Get off your Honda & Toyota horse. Even they have been known to have unexpected problems. Do I need to pull up all their recalls for you? Nah.

    3. Road debris. Go ahead, swerve around it, you also have plenty of time to check both mirrors to see if anyone is near. But if they are, they're bad drivers and shouldn't be in your blind spot.

    4. Tire blowouts. Yes, they are not common, but they do happen, even with new tires I've seen it.

    And your last comment about if ins didn't exist? And the one about starting from scratch? Stop posing hypothetical situations and come back here to planet Earth.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    If you knew the insurance industry in depth, your opinion would change. The premiums charged are less than they would be if the companies didn't have their investment income to contribute towards losses.

    Large Catastrophic losses are indemnified through Re insurance treaties and that alone can be an interesting subject.

    Go to your local Library and check out "Principles of Insurance" and/or enroll in your local university and take Insurance 101.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    ahmen.

    i've driven enough in atlanta to see everything from front-ends on the highway, to full shower stalls in my lane, metal folding tables, aluminum ladders, people upright and walking, people running on the highway, one person in my lane and completely prone, tires come off other vehicles, cars do 360s... a car with no rear tires (just grinding metal with sparks) and cabin full of smoke comming the wrong way fishtailing up my one-way ramp onto the highway, and so much more.

    scariest was a tire in the lane to my left. person hit it doing 75 and did the dukes of hazard stunt trick. i don't think they made it.

    andres3, where do you drive?
  • gmccardlegmccardle Member Posts: 35
    I live in Fl and a woman with a total of $10,000 property damage insurance T boned me causing about $14,000 in damage to my Infiniti G35 (including a bent frame). Because of the accident I have accumulated about 6 weeks of rental car expenses (about $1500 or so).

    I have spoken with my insurance co and they say to negotiate the rental reimbursement and diminished value with the other driver's insurance co and they will take what is left over of the $10,000. My car still hasn't been returned to me (after 8 weeks in the body shop). Once it is back I can at least submit my rental expenses to the other ins co (Bristol-West).

    I know that diminished value is difficult at best to calculate. My insurance carrier told me the actual cash value of my car (pre-accident) was $20,500. My thinking is that after these expenses there will be almost nothing left of the $10K. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

    Any thoughts on how I can get a fair DV estimate? I was hit hard on the passenger side and the side curtain airbags deployed. Both doors, fender and quarter panel had to be replaced. The frame was bent. The passenger side front seat was destroyed. I'm guessing thousands of dollars of loss of value here. Unfortunately, I was planning on trading my car in then Crash, everything changed. I'm working with an attorney (mostly for my personal injury issues) and he said once a get the numbers for rental and DV he'll draft a demand letter to the insurance co.

    Again, any ideas on how I can get the most of this $10K of property damage will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Am I missing something here? $14K in vehicle damage and they only have $10K in property damage ins? Seems like a no brainer to me, the ins co should just send you a check for $10K and then you'd have to sue the other driver.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    I'll assume you are using your own collision repair coverage to fix your car, right?
    So your company will have a subrogation claim for the full repair cost of $14,000. The easy money to get is from the other driver's insurance company, but it is only $10,000.
    I'd almost guess you will end up negotiating with your OWN company on the diminished value and rental claim. Your company is the competition here, not the other driver's company. That one is likely to just send a check for $10,000 to YOUR company, and let it decide what to do with it.
    Filing a lawsuit and getting a judgment to hold in your hand is a long ways from collecting the money to satisfy that judgment. Ask a local lawyer. It may be a case in which he would not even be interested in helping you.
    Admittedly, I do not know the law in your state.
    Good luck.
  • lilyowenlilyowen Member Posts: 125
    Let your attorney handle this.

    Also, your car does not have a frame.
  • gmccardlegmccardle Member Posts: 35
    That is my thinking Mike. That the check for the full amount should be cut to me for my losses and the two companies can battle it out if they want to.
  • gmccardlegmccardle Member Posts: 35
    Yes, my own collision is being used to repair the car. In Florida where I live my Ins co. is not legally obligated to pay a diminished value claim. Therefore, if I am to get DV it must be from the other Ins Co. If the $10K goes to my Co. I bet I won't see a penny of it. Maybe rental expenses...maybe.
  • gmccardlegmccardle Member Posts: 35
    My attorney will make the demand claim, but I must give him the amount to ask for regarding Property Damage.

    I realize that my car has unibody construction. I suppose I should have used the word "frame" in quotation marks.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    While I will always respect your decision to insure, or not insure, your vehicle any way you wish, I am sincerely recommending that anyone that raeds these posts NEVER follow your advice, thought processes or twisted logic...

    You do seem to view the world in a way different from most, and insurance is designed to cover the unexpected...anyone who actually believes that the unexpected will never happen to them because they are a "good" driver, lives in a fantasyland where the Commissioner actually calls out Batman, and Clark Kent really does locate Superman...

    Your advice is foolish at best, dangerous at worst, but please follow your own advice, at all costs...after all, this is still a relatively free country, and you can do as you wish, but please do NOT recommend that others follow your logic, as you have none...

    Rant over...
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Well, yeah, that IS the question. Where is the other company's $10,000 headed?
    What does your company tell you? You should call your company and find out if it is going to pursue a subrogation claim to recover some of the money it paid to repair your car. Ask them directly whether that other company's $10,000 must first be used to compensate you for your car rental and diminished value claims, or if your company has priority over yours to collect its money before you get any from the other company.
    I do not know how it works, but I'm curious to find out.
    To determine the amount of diminished value you might need to hire an appraiser who is independent from all parties and insurance companies involved, or at least one which had no previous ties to anyone involved before YOU hired them.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Very often an idealist will not follow his own advice. That could be good or bad depending on the ideas he advances.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    even if he has it appraised, i doubt VERY VERY much that you or anyone (save marsha7 perhaps) will be able to unravel the justification for the DV that is "determined".

    o' i think ins. companyies have a very non-transparent means to compute DV.
  • daedalus34rdaedalus34r Member Posts: 95
    I've always wondered how insurance works for car purchasing. I understand this is a really basic question, but are you supposed to buy the policy before the purchase? What happens if the purchase doesnt go through due to varying conditions?

    My situation is that there is a car I'd like to buy far from home [used]. I'd have to fly out there to look at it, and if its good, purchase. So how would I handle the insurance for it so that I can drive it off the lot after the transaction.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Can you expand on that reply?
    I'm not really sure what you are telling me.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Call your friendly insurance agent. Tell him what's going on. He'll have some suggestions, I'm sure.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    sure. you asserted once before that DV is determined through appraisal.

    if you are an insurance specialist, you tell me if you are being truthful or not, because my experience has proven to me otherwise. they have a formula but they will NOT divulge the methodology / calculation to the insured. at least my insurance company played it this way.

    you may be able to prove me wrong. if so, please do. i found the whole pursuit of DV mystical myself.
  • brownie523brownie523 Member Posts: 22
    Does anyone know if there is a certain formula that is used by Insurance Companies OR Personal Injury Attorneys to come up with a Settlement Amount for a Personal Injury Claim? How would I know if a settlement is fair? :confuse:
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Hi daedalus34r,
    Do you already have auto insurance? If you do, you generally have 30 days to report a new purchase to your insurance company. Your vehicle is covered for those 30 days, so you can drive, covered, immediately.

    If you do not have auto insurance at all, you will need to speak to an insurance agent about your situation (or maybe an expert in the biz will chime in here).

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  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Assuming you have car insurance, there is a 30 day grace period in which to add an additional private passenger and non commercial vehicle, however, your policy extends only the coverage you presently have. If you don't have Physical Damage coverage on your present policy, then there isn't that Comp and Collision extended (30 days) on your new purchase, unless you communicate with your agent/company. When you talk to your agent/company, have the 17 digit serial number ready.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,833
    My insurance company (the big one) just sent a notice changing the rule on how soon you must notify them of a new car. It is changing from 30 days to 14 days.

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Your SCREWED! Bristol West will fight, pull teeth, and make your lawyer earn his money ten-fold before they'll pay you for that accident claim of yours.

    Getting hit by someone that has Bristol West as their Insurance company is the worst luck you can have on the road short of being killed.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    The problem with aritration/mediation is that certain insurance companies do hundreds of them yearly, they make friends with all of the mediators and arbitrators, and have a familiarity with them and the proceedings.

    Most people will have only to do this once in their life?
    Is this fair? Also, talk about a big chance of corruption and payoff from the Insurance Company to the arbitrators and mediators.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    oh ok. now i see your point, and am in agreement.

    if you get a "fair estimate" and attempt a shootout with the ins. co., i think it likely you loose in the end. if they don't get you on DV, it's likely they'll get you on premium increase. perhaps not right away, perhaps at renewal, or upon subsequent claim.

    having a shootout at 50 paces sounds kind of neat. employing a hired gun doesn't sound cheap though. likely, you'll loose in that scenario as well unless you yourself is a lawyer, or there is one in the family well versed on this sort of thing. but, even taking it to arbitration, or litgation doesn't guarentee a fair settlement.

    count your time, money and effort / frustration, and i think it's all in the ins. co's court.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    Yes, biased arbitrators could be a problem for the little guy.

    But since you are fighting the OTHER guy's insurance company, you are under no contractual obligation to submit to binding arbitration. You can sue the other driver through the court system. Problem is, unless you've got a good injury claim to go along with it, most lawyers will not represent you on the DV claim on a contingency basis. So it might cost you quite a bit of money to even get a chance to argue your case.

    Now I suppose you can argue that all lawyers, judges and juries are biased too. I don't believe it, but you might, and I will not try to change your opinion about that. But it's the best system around, and it's the last (legal) resort.

    Good luck.
  • joe131joe131 Member Posts: 998
    In the case presented earlier, you would not have to worry about premium increases directly due to a payout because it was the OTHER guy's insurance that would be paying you DV.
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    Now I suppose you can argue that all lawyers, judges and juries are biased too. I don't believe it, but you might, and I will not try to change your opinion about that. But it's the best system around, and it's the last (legal) resort.

    i'm married to a lawyer that happens to be a mediator, and a darn excellent one. she saves people and the courts a lot of grief, time, money. i believe in lawyers and mediation. i've met a few judges i think were outstanding people.

    do i win at home? :cry: but that is another forum. :shades:

    i think over a few grand for DV, you're not likely to get much interest by the profession. at 150 and up an hour, you have to be pretty far apart $$$ wise to make it worth your effort, time, money, sanity, etc.
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