Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx

markcincinnati said:

I always put premium gas in the "free-loaners" the dealer provides; my wife does too. It never even occurred to me that putting anything less in the tank was an option.

Force of habit, I guess.

Yet, even if the allegation that Premium Car owners chintz out on the gas they put in the FREE loaner cars, the engine management computer probably does do a decent job of preventing any real damage.

I can't remember the last time I put anything but premium gas in ANY car I was driving -- really, force of habit. I would liken this to having a kid with a peanut allergy, I would just automatically avoid anything I thought might have even heard the word peanut.

Sad indictment of folks if they really do put regular in the S4 or A6 or X3 they have just been loaned.

What a world, what a world.

I think most luxury owners also cheap out... not just on their rental/loaners...

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think anyone said that the "majority" were over 61 because the average was 61. The general idea is that probably something close to half are 61 years old, and 25% are above that and 25% below that.

markcincinnati said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well sure it means that about half (more or less) of the buyers are old codgers, yes--that's what an average is, an arithmetic mean....presuming you think 60+ is very old.

robr2 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well that's good but keep in mind that age 61 is still an *average*.

Well the average age of a Bugatti buyer is 60. Does that mean that only old codgers buy them?

Only knowing the mean does not provide enough information to declare that "about half" of the buyers are old codgers. To have a really good understanding of what the majority of ages is, you would also need to know the mode, median and range -- to get a better idea of the number(s) that occurs most often. The issue with mean is that a bunch of 45-ish year olds buying a certain car would return an "average age" around 45, as you would expect; but, throw in a couple of purchases by some 25 year olds and a few more over 75 and well, depending on the size of the population, you could skew below or above 45 even though the population as individuals is "over half" 45-ish.

I was quite surprised to see the average age of BMW buyers was "THAT OLD!" But, you see, I've been going to the BMW Store here in Cincinnati at least since the mid 1980's, and my impression is that the show room is full of shoppers who are "really really young" -- and I have always presumed well-to-do. I went the Audi route when all my friends went with BMW's because #1 the Audi brand had quattro and #2, I always felt you could buy the next higher line of Audi for the same price as the lower line BMW, so I thought the value and performance leader was always Audi (you could say, too, I guess, I was, ahem, more frugal than my BMW lovin' friends).

But back to the math -- an average age of 60 does not mean the majority of buyers are over 60. There isn't enough information to know, if all you know is the "average." Mean, Mode, Median, Range and while were at it Standard Deviation, on the other hand would paint a much clearer picture of the number of "old timers" buying a particular automotive brand.

I have one more data point -- every Corvette that I have seen FOR YEARS seems to be piloted by a driver who either looks like Bill Clinton or Bill Cosby (speaking ONLY of a certain appearance that suggests age, not lasciviousness.)

But the car seems to be marketed to a much younger person, if you have ever seen an ad or brochure.

markcincinnati

Yeah, you're right, what I said at the OPENING of my post should have been repeated "about half"-- yet, average just doesn't give enough information to know other than to take a guess that "probably" your 50% number (61) is "probable."

When I took statistics and probability in grad school, my professor asked the question "If we would like to be told we would be kept at an an average temperature of 106F determined by having one half of our body at 0F and one half at 212F -- his argument was that "on average, you'd think you might just be a little warm, but that is because you had insufficient data."

It's the numbers on the fringes that can really muck up the meaning of average. My interest would be in knowing a bit more. I mean it, BMW, as we all know, stands for Beauty, Money and Wealth -- and in my experience the BMW owners, shoppers and drivers are YOUNG and possess beauty, money and wealth. Finding out that BMW buyers are older than Audi buyers bursts my bubble.

Buick and Lincoln's numbers, however, seem to fit my perceptions, on the other hand.

circlew

I'm thinking that the new Shell V-Power Nitro + is for the folks on this board....

https://recombu.com/cars/article/is-it-worth-buying-shell-v-power-nitro-fuel

cdnpinhead

It's like Lake Wobegone: all the children are above average.

graphicguy

I must be in the minority. If the model recommends premium, I put premium in my loaners. I want the loaner buyer to buy a car cared for like it was my personal car.

nyccarguy

I do to. But the people who are paying $299 a month with $2999 down plus tax don't put PUG.

dino001

I think we are a bit special breed here. More typical are those mentioned by NYC.

stickguy

I must be odd. I have not had a loaner in at least 10 years.

Michaell

stickguy said:

I must be odd. I have not had a loaner in at least 10 years.

Wow - I can arrange for a loaner at all three dealers I frequent for service - Hyundai, Subaru or MINI.

dino001

Seems like those guys at Cadillac are even more removed from reality than we all thought. Their sales are crashing, in segments that should bring growth, they don't want to put incentives out, they raise prices, yet they want to sell 500,000 units by 2020. They do say of a small SUV plans. Hopefully more than just a rebadged Chevy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/11/us-gm-cadillac-sales-idUSKCN0QG1Y220150811

Michaell

dino001 said:

Seems like those guys at Cadillac are even more removed from reality than we all thought. Their sales are crashing, in segments that should bring growth, they don't want to put incentives out, they raise prices, yet they want to sell 500,000 units by 2020. They do say of a small SUV plans. Hopefully more than just a rebadged Chevy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/11/us-gm-cadillac-sales-idUSKCN0QG1Y220150811

I think GM is starting to fall back into their old ways. Rebadged Equinox coming as a Buick; rebadged Encore is now the Chevy Trax.

stickguy

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

I must be odd. I have not had a loaner in at least 10 years.

Wow - I can arrange for a loaner at all three dealers I frequent for service - Hyundai, Subaru or MINI.

well, the Acura dealer does offer them. But in 3 years, I have never been in for anything that wasn't covered under the express service, so I never had to stay more than an hour, so no point in leaving. Hyundai, well, that had 1 oil change, so I just waited.

our Honda dealer (when I used them a lot) just had a shuttle. mostly I just waited for the express service. the few times i needed to leave it, either took the shuttle or had the wife drop me off.

Hopefully I never have to deal with the VW dealer, outside of 1x year oil change!

robr2

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

Seems like those guys at Cadillac are even more removed from reality than we all thought. Their sales are crashing, in segments that should bring growth, they don't want to put incentives out, they raise prices, yet they want to sell 500,000 units by 2020. They do say of a small SUV plans. Hopefully more than just a rebadged Chevy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/11/us-gm-cadillac-sales-idUSKCN0QG1Y220150811

I think GM is starting to fall back into their old ways. Rebadged Equinox coming as a Buick; rebadged Encore is now the Chevy Trax.

Aw c'mon now. These are more than badge jobs. They are shared platforms with little shared outside of that. Should we chastise VW for sharing an 8 year old platform between the current A4 and the new Porsche Macan?

Michaell

robr2 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

Seems like those guys at Cadillac are even more removed from reality than we all thought. Their sales are crashing, in segments that should bring growth, they don't want to put incentives out, they raise prices, yet they want to sell 500,000 units by 2020. They do say of a small SUV plans. Hopefully more than just a rebadged Chevy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/08/11/us-gm-cadillac-sales-idUSKCN0QG1Y220150811

I think GM is starting to fall back into their old ways. Rebadged Equinox coming as a Buick; rebadged Encore is now the Chevy Trax.

Aw c'mon now. These are more than badge jobs. They are shared platforms with little shared outside of that. Should we chastise VW for sharing an 8 year old platform between the current A4 and the new Porsche Macan?

I suppose not.

dino001

I'm not against platform sharing, that's a fact of life today. It's about making cars different enough. There are examples of successful platform sharing, such as VAG, where to various degree there are shared components between Skoda, Seat, VW, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini and Bugatti, but the brands have enough identity and uniqueness between each other. A domestic example of a successful platform sharing would be Cadillac Escalade - regardless how much detest Cadillac's marketing of this vehicle (the commercial with Pharao, Raja, Louis-X??? could easily be in top 3 most offensive and obnoxious ever), it has enough separation from GMC. An example for the opposite also comes from Cadillac - Cimarron.

GM's overall track record of putting different badges on practically identical vehicles makes me, should I say, skeptical. They got better, recently. I think Buicks seem to be regaining their own identity, but seems GM is slowly falling back into its old ways - unrealistic expectations, lots of puffery, and lack of support of their dealers, see Graphic's CTS saga, which seems to stem from multiple dealers' unwillingness to troubleshoot the car without a fault code, which is most likely because GM's refusal to give them enough leeway to work the problem first. They can't win luxury market customers, if their dealers act this way, but they do that because of the toxic relationships. Moreover, there are probably too many stores for the brand to be truly upscale.

So they trump half million sales target in 5 years, which is high teens growth each year, every year, with currently crashing sales in some key US segments. I understand, big part of the growth is supposed to come from China, which I think is OK, even if recent news suggest a calamity unfolding there (I think it's way overstated).

How do you grow sales, when in fact you need to shrink the store count and apply more discipline? It's all completely inconsistent. As I said before, it's a ten year project with very difficult first three-four years and no guarantee for a success. They are unwilling to swallow that bitter pill (what's new about that), they'd rather do what they have always done - peacocking, unrealistic baffoonery. Seems like the bankruptcy taught them absolutely nothing. Looks like the new outsider guy fits their old mold quite well.

markcincinnati

It -- perhaps superficially -- appears that Cadillac is emulating the SONY approach. Sony, a few short decades ago was the big buck TV (and later there were many other Sony branded electronics). Back in the day when big name department stores would sell TVs, a shopper could be in selection mode and see a sea of Zenith, RCA, Admiral and even Mitsubishi TVs -- often the Sony family of TVs was separated from the other brands; and, always the Sony brand in whatever size you were shopping for was more expensive. Time passed. Sony proliferated the brand and began lowering prices. Or did the competition creep their prices upward?

Eventually Sony showed up in Walmart along side other "perceived lesser" brands -- regardless of the price erosion, Sony did keep the image of being the Premium Brand.

Lexus, on the other hand, produced a premium automobile, said to be comparable to Mercedes, and charged 20% less. Over time, Lexus was able to inflate the MSRP of the cars to near parity with the premium Germans.

Two approaches -- both appear to work to carve out market share.

Cadillac seems to be working the Sony model -- price the product more dearly, take the chance that the market will perceive the brand in an increasingly positive light -- "Cadillac is back." This is time consuming, expensive and probably WILL WORK "if" there is sufficient shareholder and executive management patience to "not quit before the miracle."

The Lexus -- Land Grab -- approach also has its merits. In a B2C model, I would assume the Lexus approach seems "intuitively" to be lower risk. But, the brand will take a period of time to build up the desired perception. Again, corporate and shareholder patience will be required, but since there will be volume, shareholders may think the "miracle" is closer than it may ultimately prove to have been.

You can't enact either approach if your masters fire you though.

The investors -- a somewhat different group than the shareholders -- probably prefer raising prices, since the brand's equity (if the approach works) will certainly be built up.

Oddly, in my perception, Audi took the Lexus approach (sort of), but I could argue the "unintended acceleration" situation that befell Audi after the 60-Minutes story, FORCED Audi to discount their cars just to remain relevant in the US (remember the days when select prospects received a $5,000 check that could be applied to the Audi 5000 (which became the A6) linup. The approach would seem to be that the MSRP was not discounted, but you were given an up-front rebate.

So Cadillac is taking the approach of selling cars that are priced higher -- the Sony approach to market share, sort of.

Of course the dealer body has to be convinced along with the customers that this is a long game and worth playing. The dealers, so it appears, are not exactly warming to this approach, however.

We'll see.

dino001

Where is Sony now? Sony started higher because they used to have a product that was at least arguably better and most innovative. Later on they stopped innovating, diluted the brand. Sony is a shadow of its old self. To wish Cadillac to go Sony way is to basically wish it to die slow and painful death.

Plus, pricing product higher you have to acknowledge the expected hit in volume. They are claiming the opposite. That's what is not making sense.

Mr_Shiftright

Cadillac seems to be revising their pricing structure for 2016, so I think they're getting the message that they have to set a price about $10K below MB and Lexus.

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

Cadillac seems to be revising their pricing structure for 2016, so I think they're getting the message that they have to set a price about $10K below MB and Lexus.

Can you elaborate? Are they lowering prices by large increments? This would certainly be interesting news.

qbrozen

Granted, I have not gone through the trouble of trying to build like cars, but the CTS starts at $5k less than the 5-series. The 6-cylinders start about $2k apart, so, OK, not so great there. But then you are back to a $5k delta with the V sport vs 550i. The CTS already starts nearly $9k less than its E-class counterparts.

The ATS 2.5 is a mistake that should have been killed at birth. Yes, the ATS is only about $1k less than the 3-series counterparts on starting price. The C class, however, is $2k more for the 4-cyl turbo and $6k more for the 6-cyl. An ATS-V is about $3500 less than the starter C63 and $1500 under the M3.

So it seems to me they have a bit more work to do on ATS pricing than CTS, although the sales of the CTS would indicate otherwise.

Mr_Shiftright

Well we're getting a hint of it in the New CTS-V Sticker Price.

dino001 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Cadillac seems to be revising their pricing structure for 2016, so I think they're getting the message that they have to set a price about $10K below MB and Lexus.

Can you elaborate? Are they lowering prices by large increments? This would certainly be interesting news.

dino001

qbrozen said:

Granted, I have not gone through the trouble of trying to build like cars, but the CTS starts at $5k less than the 5-series. The 6-cylinders start about $2k apart, so, OK, not so great there. But then you are back to a $5k delta with the V sport vs 550i. The CTS already starts nearly $9k less than its E-class counterparts.

The ATS 2.5 is a mistake that should have been killed at birth. Yes, the ATS is only about $1k less than the 3-series counterparts on starting price. The C class, however, is $2k more for the 4-cyl turbo and $6k more for the 6-cyl. An ATS-V is about $3500 less than the starter C63 and $1500 under the M3.

So it seems to me they have a bit more work to do on ATS pricing than CTS, although the sales of the CTS would indicate otherwise.

Those all are too small differentials. They should be such that even after a customary dealer's discount at BMW or Benz, there is still a healthy distance to the STICKER of the Cady. At least for now. The CTS-to-5 series move was correct in general terms, but it should take 10 years, not just one sweep. The sticker shock from previous year was simply too big. There is a history showing such big moves never work. You can't "declare" yourself worthy of the price - that's something that comes after years. Lexus knew it and where are they now. Even now one part of their appeal is that they are a value proposition to the Germans - much less of a discount than before, nevertheless they are still cheaper, especially in higher reaches of their respective models. They have a simpler lineup, so there are gaps in comparison, but within comparable models and equipment, the prices are still lower.

robr2

dino001 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Cadillac seems to be revising their pricing structure for 2016, so I think they're getting the message that they have to set a price about $10K below MB and Lexus.

Can you elaborate? Are they lowering prices by large increments? This would certainly be interesting news.

Back in January, Cadillac cut the MSRP on the CTS anywhere from $1-3,000.

markcincinnati

Configuring a, for example, 5 series with X,Y & Z features and options and attempting to do the same configuration of a CTS is a good way to determine if Cadillac is going after the land grab.

I have no wish for Cadillac to emulate my historical perspective of Sony's playbook. I observed some evidence that was the approach that seemed to materialize coincidental with the birth of the current CTS.

For the most part, I would say I favor the Lexus LS400 approach -- build a comparable car (comparable to Mercedes is the popular conception) and price it so compellingly that it is difficult for customers NOT to shop it.

In some respects, it appears KIA has set its sights on the Premium (including entry-level premium) Class and is using the land grab approach. It's sibling company coming out with the Equus, too, seems like a similar approach. Don't know how it's going with the Equus as it, unlike Lexus, doesn't have a dedicated dealer body. That worked out well for the Phaeton in the US, eh?

My board is always after me to raise the prices of our software products -- doing so, we experienced growth -- slow growth. We changed the strategy to buy one, get one and sales (revenue) literally doubled. Of course my business is B2B, but in the end, the purchases are made by a human, in either a commercial or retail setting, so I assume there is some carry over.

If you want to build market share, go land grab and raise prices slowly over time. If you want to build gross margin -- PER TRANSACTION -- raise the price, but remember the risk is that revenue will likely drop for some period of time (years, in some cases).

The economic reality seems, for cars -- unless you're Lambo or Porsche, or another already high-priced established product, etc -- to favor land grab, if you're trying to build or, in Cadillac's place, re-build a brand.

I think, in part, BMW has mastered this -- they have created an aspirational brand. Everywhere you turn (we have two BMW dealers in Cincinnati who seem to churn out a couple hundred new BMW owners every month) you see "yourself" in [generally speaking] a new 3-series; then, when you've finally "arrived" you immediately go to the BMW Store or Sweeny and pick up your new symbol of success.

A few years ago, I read an article that said "Everyone wants to be BMW;" last year, if you can believe Car & Driver, et al, the headline was "Everyone wants to be Audi." Of course the "Everyone" was speaking of Audi or BMW's rivals du jour.

Hopefully Cadillac will keep improving the product and will figure out someway to make the cars be perceived as "worth the asking price."

Tick-tock.

dino001

Lexus worked, because it was a separate brand. If Hyundai went as far as creating a new brand with separate dealer network, the land grab could work. Selling 70K limousine next to 15K econobox is actually a very difficult proposition. However, the former requires lots of time, resources and patience. The latter can be tried and abandoned in one cycle.

nyccarguy

@robr2 - I had NO idea the MACAN shared it's platform with the current A4. Learn something new every day!

flightnurse

dino001 said:

Where is Sony now? Sony started higher because they used to have a product that was at least arguably better and most innovative. Later on they stopped innovating, diluted the brand. Sony is a shadow of its old self. To wish Cadillac to go Sony way is to basically wish it to die slow and painful death.

Plus, pricing product higher you have to acknowledge the expected hit in volume. They are claiming the opposite. That's what is not making sense.

As someone who worked at Sony during the heyday, the writing was on the wall when I left in 97, every segment Sony was in, they had the top model, but when the walkman died, so did a lot of other products, Thier laptop's had many problems and durability was a problem, Sony wouldn't give up on the DAT player for Car Audio or BETA video recorder, two complete failures. Then Sony cheapened the brand by out sourcing products to be manufacturers in Mexico, other brands were getting better and Sony's products were getting outdated and finally other brands surpassed Sony in sales. If it wasn't for the PlayStation, I really think Sony would be a completely different company then it is today.

markcincinnati

Technically the Macan shares about 33% of its DNA with the Audi Q5/SQ5. The two local Audi retailers happen to own Porsche dealerships -- kind of an interesting "battle of the brands" with shoppers cross shopping SQ5's with the base Macan. Apparently, if you know where to look, you can actually see the Audi markings on frame members of the Macan.

Of course my Audi rep thinks the Macan costs $10-$15K more than an SQ5, and has made a Sticker Comparison to demonstrate that.

Frankly, having driven both of them, my take is that for once the Audi interior is second to the Macan's and the Macan has noticeably lower ground clearance. From a power perspective, the Audi has both more HP and torque, but the Porsche's torque, derived as it is from turbo charging comes on at a lower RPM.

The SQ5, were it to offer the German Market lowered suspension (which it does not, here in the US), seems to be more car for the money -- but, ahem, what price the Porsche medallion? The Porsche uses a 7-speed dual clutch unit and the SQ5 uses an 8-speed tiptronic with software that does a pretty good impression of a dual clutch feel.

Lots of options available on the Macan -- and those options can crank a Macan over $100,000. Our lowly SQ5 Prestige with a couple of options and in Panther Black with red leather seats came in at $65,000.

Despite the similarities, there are obvious Porsche touches that are included in that 67% uniqueness -- and while you may argue their value-prop, they certainly do imbue the Macan with Porsche-ness; and, no amount of leather or paint will make the SQ5 a Porsche.

You may cross shop them and I'm certain the country-club valet will give either car you hop out of nothing other than a ton of respect (and will likely avert his eyes), but one, after all is a friggin' Porsche.

Drive it like you live.

NB: My wife decided the SQ5 would be a repeat, primarily because she likes being a bit higher off the ground and because the back seat of the Macan takes a big hit in headroom and cargo space in exchange for having a swoopy rear-end. The Audi, then, gets a nod toward "practicality" if you can imagine hauling groceries in a $65,000 Supercharged 354HP 346 ft/lb Torque "CUV Hot-rod!"

robr2

Bradd - the MLB platform is used as the basis for:

Audi A5 (Typ 8T, 2007-)
Audi A4 (Typ 8K, 2008-)
Audi Q5 (Typ 8R, 2009-)
Audi A8 (Typ 4H, "D4", 2010-)
Audi A7 (Typ 4G, 2010-)
Audi A6 (Typ 4G, "C7", 2011-)
Porsche Macan (2013-)

As Mark noted, the same platform can be used on different vehicles and get different results.

I get bothered by the "badge engineering" argument when a platform is shared. It's not like the old days when a different nose and tail was slapped on a car and we have a new model to sell.

nyccarguy

Cool.  I agree that platform sharing isn't badge engineering.

dino001

There is still some "badge engineering" in other manufacturers, including VAG. In Europe, they have Skoda, Seat, VW models differing mostly by some styling and interior, but essentially identical otherwise (with "special model" exceptions). Not as visible here, as VW to Audi separation is much more pronounced, especially within current US market offerings. Other do much worse job of separating models, especially in lower end of the premium brands, where majority of their entry level models are barely changed in comparison to their close common relatives. Lincoln MKZ/Ford Fusion, Acura CLX/Honda Civic come in mind, especially their lower level trims. Even previous generation Audi A3/VW Golf GTI were not as far apart, as they should be.

cdnpinhead

I've driven a number of rental Skodas in Europe, and they are very worthy vehicles. Of course, they'll never be offered over here.

markcincinnati

I was in the Prague airport several years ago and there was a Skoda on display -- did a double take, it was a Passat without any of the VW logos, etc. Now, the car was roped off, so I really couldn't peek inside to see if the interior was also a Passat, but, whatever differences there were, were minor.

I assume Skoda's are priced lower than VW's and VW's of course are priced lower than Audis, etc.

While watching MotorWeek's test of the Lambo Aventador SV, I noticed the "console" was pretty much the same as the MMI+ that I have in my 2014 S4. Even the knobs and switches were straight out of an Audi (that would be priced several hundred thousand dollars less.)

Michaell

markcincinnati said:

I was in the Prague airport several years ago and there was a Skoda on display -- did a double take, it was a Passat without any of the VW logos, etc. Now, the car was roped off, so I really couldn't peek inside to see if the interior was also a Passat, but, whatever differences there were, were minor.

I assume Skoda's are priced lower than VW's and VW's of course are priced lower than Audis, etc.

While watching MotorWeek's test of the Lambo Aventador SV, I noticed the "console" was pretty much the same as the MMI+ that I have in my 2014 S4. Even the knobs and switches were straight out of an Audi (that would be priced several hundred thousand dollars less.)

Ah, yes - the corporate parts bin. Why design and manufacture a unique part?

circlew

Cadillac maps ambitious plan for new models

DeNysschen has warned General Motors management, Cadillac dealers and the media that building the brand's prestige will take a combination of expanding the number of models, being more disciplined in pricing them and upgrading customers' experience in the showroom and service departments to equal or beat all competitors.

He also said dealers will be measured on how well they accomplish those last two objectives. Cadillac has 928 dealers in the U.S. who sold 165,000 vehicles last year, compared with 282 Audi dealers who sold 182,000 cars, or less than one-third as many dealers.

"The reality, particularly in the U.S. is that the quality of the Cadillac dealer network does significantly trail that of our competitors," deNysschen said.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/08/12/cadillac/31518823/

dino001

Wow. 982 dealers selling fewer units than 282 dealers. I thought Cadillac will have to cut its network in half, but it seems it will have to leave a quarter, maybe a third. This is basically impossible. Just imagine legal battles, payoffs, etc.

It is worse than I thought. The bloat is incredible. No wonder GM has such a bad relationship with dealers.

markcincinnati

circlew said:

Cadillac maps ambitious plan for new models

DeNysschen has warned General Motors management, Cadillac dealers and the media that building the brand's prestige will take a combination of expanding the number of models, being more disciplined in pricing them and upgrading customers' experience in the showroom and service departments to equal or beat all competitors.

"The reality, particularly in the U.S. is that the quality of the Cadillac dealer network does significantly trail that of our competitors," deNysschen said.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/08/12/cadillac/31518823/



A Day in the Life

Due to our on-again, off-again “hobby” – getting educated about a somewhat eclectic number of automotive brands – my wife and I have had the experience of visiting dealerships and interacting with many current auto models and their sales representatives. Included in this list: Jeep, Chrysler, GMC and, of course, Cadillac. Of course we’ve also experienced Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Mercedes and Volvo, too. But, in response to DeNysschen’s “warning” to GM’s top brass, I can now reflect on what seems to be a different “approach” prospective customers will enjoy when shopping at the dealership of, apparently most, American automotive brands.

Have you ever heard of or seen a TV show called “WKRP in Cincinnati?” If so, you will have a somewhat more well-rounded perspective of the Herb Tarlek approach. I want to make sure you understand my remarks are a caricature – an exaggeration. You see, Mr. Tarlek is the sales manager of the fictional Cincinnati radio station WKRP – and he is, well, terrible. His behavior qualifies him to be called either a jerk or a jackass. His behavior and customer’s interactions with him often seem vaguely slimy, borderline unethical and disreputable. Further, it appears that Mr. Tarlek has a problem with women, often calling them “hon’” and usually ignoring them altogether, if they are with a man.

Pulling into the lot of [even] a Cadillac dealership, the gentleman sporting a white belt and white shoes barely allows customers to exit their vehicles before invading their personal space and asking them if their “time-frame” is today (since he’s already below his quota and needs to only spend time with customers who will sign and drive NOW.)

Then, you are guided to – apparently – the vehicle with the spiffs on it and “encouraged” to take a test drive. You are required to allow your driver’s license to be photocopied and you may even have to produce proof of insurance. Then, the rep gets into the back seat in order to answer any questions that may arise during the test drive.

And so it goes – you can’t wait to get out of there, for, during the test drive the chatter from the back seat is incessant, pressing you for “what’ll it take” to get you to close the deal today.

Come to think of it, this isn’t as much of a caricature as I had intended.

I don’t know if these dealer reps ever shop for cars anywhere else to “see how it is done elsewhere,” but the evidence suggests this is not the case.

On top of way too many dealers, DeNysschen has his work cut out for him – I suspect he’ll be incredibly popular with the dealers (uh huh).

Unless I knew exactly what I wanted and could pretty much handle the entire transaction over the Internet, I don’t know why folks willing and able to plunk down sums often way north of $50,000 put up with this kind of behavior – oh wait, apparently not enough of them do.

Swallow your pride and see if there’s any openings at Audi, Mr. DeNysschen. Cadillac may just be, if not a lost cause, in possession of too much inertia.

wayne21

You are required to allow your driver’s license to be photocopied and you may even have to produce proof of insurance.

The reason dealerships want a copy of your driver's license is so they run a credit check on you.

qbrozen

No. Credit check can't be pulled from your DL number. They want to make sure you have a valid DL, first of all, before letting you drive their car on their insurance. They also want ID in case you run off with their car. Seems pretty reasonable.

markcincinnati

The premium car dealerships (we've visited) rarely ask for documentation prior to a test drive -- I dunno, maybe they size up the customer based on the car they drive in. Also, arriving as a couple probably doesn't hurt either.

Running a credit check from your DL? My SSN is NOT on my DL. I suspect there may be other ways to do this, but, one more thing: if a credit check is run through one of the three commercial CB's, there is an "inquiry" posted to the formula used to determine your score. Should you have a credit check or worse, multiple credit checks, there is the distinct possibility of a hit (negative) on your scores.

Applying for a credit check -- especially without your knowledge would not be a good practice.

Please note, my comments were meant to suggest a fundamental difference between the experience we customers face at a Premium European or Japanese vs even a Premium American brand.

Actually, since the Cadillac dealer we frequent is next to the Audi dealer where we buy regularly, we are usually just given the keys with the comment, "take your time."

The overall spirit of what I was commenting about was to underscore DeNysschen's comments. Really, I am pulling for him and for Cadillac. Sometimes, though, it must seem almost like a lost cause. If he can survive, I would assume he could make Cadillac thrive. It's a long row to hoe, however.

benjaminh

"Speaking yesterday to analysts and as reported by Automotive News, Cadillac chief Johan de Nysschen has put a timetable on the luxury brand’s move toward autonomy from General Motors. The executive says he expects the brand to splinter from GM and have “a far higher degree of autonomy and self sufficiency” by 2017...."

Seems like somebody might be able to come up with a play on the name?

"Cadillac chief Drivoff de Klyffen"

"Johan de Notsonyssen"

Anyone else have play on the name as Cadillac seemingly self-destructs to give this guy an ego trip and massive payday?

Many Cadillac dealers probably feel right now like they're being.....I don't know what....

dino001

The problem is that those dealers kind of deserve it (at least some), as they don't reflect what Cadillac should be and there is not even a chance they'll ever do.

I don't think it's the guy's ego problem. If anything, it's GM's past and present hubris and running the brand to the ground, before he even joined them. They guy is simply telling how he sees they should look in the future. He may be wrong here and there and perhaps not fully get all the fixes right, but it's simply unsustainable the way it is right now. The problem is the constituency, both in the company and the dealers simply is too myopic to see it and attached to old ways. In essence, he has no chance, not because his being wrong, but because there is too much to change and too few interested in the change. Simple declaring bankruptcy, shedding assets and contracts is just a start, not the end of restructuring. Cadillac has a network to sell million cars a year and the product that sells less than half of that with sales are barely moving up in the aggregate, falling in key segments. Essentially a burning platform, to use Elop's language about Nokia. I unfortunately think they may end up like Nokia, too. Perhaps it will take longer.

robr2

markcincinnati said:

Applying for a credit check -- especially without your knowledge would not be a good practice.

It's a bit more than a bad practice, it's illegal. Your signature is required to pull your credit.

Also, if your credit is pulled a few times around within a certain period, the credit agencies count it as one pull as they realized that consumers shop loans.

Michaell

robr2 said:

markcincinnati said:

Applying for a credit check -- especially without your knowledge would not be a good practice.

It's a bit more than a bad practice, it's illegal. Your signature is required to pull your credit.

Also, if your credit is pulled a few times around within a certain period, the credit agencies count it as one pull as they realized that consumers shop loans.

I believe that was the case when I shopped for a mortgage last month .. had two hard inquiries on my credit.

benjaminh

Interesting post from elsewhere.


"Hate My BMW, need help on 9th gen accord purchase.
...own a 2007 335i coupe currently with 103k miles. Ive owned the car for id say 6 months and am already more than $5000 in repairs so long story short, cars gotta go its not for me..."

graphicguy

benjaminh said:

Interesting post from elsewhere.


"Hate My BMW, need help on 9th gen accord purchase.
...own a 2007 335i coupe currently with 103k miles. Ive owned the car for id say 6 months and am already more than $5000 in repairs so long story short, cars gotta go its not for me..."

Be curious about where s/he bought the car? Dealer? Private party? Jeff's bait, tackle and BMW store?

$5K is a lot of work for someone not to be able to notice it on a test drive. You can hide some sins in a car. But, $5K worth should be relatively noticeable.

If financed, might be a tough trade. Bought straight out? Take your lumps and move on.

benjaminh

dino001 said:

The problem is that those dealers kind of deserve it (at least some), as they don't reflect what Cadillac should be and there is not even a chance they'll ever do.

I don't think it's the guy's ego problem. If anything, it's GM's past and present hubris and running the brand to the ground, before he even joined them. They guy is simply telling how he sees they should look in the future. He may be wrong here and there and perhaps not fully get all the fixes right, but it's simply unsustainable the way it is right now. The problem is the constituency, both in the company and the dealers simply is too myopic to see it and attached to old ways. In essence, he has no chance, not because his being wrong, but because there is too much to change and too few interested in the change. Simple declaring bankruptcy, shedding assets and contracts is just a start, not the end of restructuring. Cadillac has a network to sell million cars a year and the product that sells less than half of that with sales are barely moving up in the aggregate, falling in key segments. Essentially a burning platform, to use Elop's language about Nokia. I unfortunately think they may end up like Nokia, too. Perhaps it will take longer.

So Johan de NoclueaboutCaddysschen seems to be saying that Cadillacs should be selling for more than the equivalent BMWs, Audis, or MBs.

?

That is not going to happen. The buyers of those cars are loyal and dedicated, and very few of them will ever consider a Cadillac—especially if it costs more money.

I'm trying to figure this out, but I see from GM's webpage (and even though he's spending their money hand over fist on his experiment, he's at the same time trying to distance himself from them?) that he grew up in South Africa. He also, as we know, worked for a long time for Audi, and then for Infiniti.

http://www.gm.com/content/gmcom/home/company/aboutGM/GM_Corporate_Officers/johan_nysschen.html

Essentially, Johan de N. doesn't seem to have much of a clue about who buys Cadillacs. The Cadillac buyer wants American luxury, performance, and style—but not at a nosebleed price. They either won't pay that much—or can't.

Cadillac has already moved upmarket in the last 15 years. And that's a good thing. But these new moves don't seem rational to me or to some other people.

For instance, would Audi owner markcincinnati be willing to pay *more* than an Audi for a Cadillac? I don't think so.

And now Johan de Nosebleedprysschen is insulting his own dealer network.

?

Bet the dislike for him at the grassroots dealer level is swelling like a Fukushima tsunami....

Hire an outside "genuis" for megabucks who promises you the moon? But then he blows up the brand on the launchpad. Seems like a classic corporate mistake.

markcincinnati

graphicguy said:

benjaminh said:

Interesting post from elsewhere.


"Hate My BMW, need help on 9th gen accord purchase.
...own a 2007 335i coupe currently with 103k miles. Ive owned the car for id say 6 months and am already more than $5000 in repairs so long story short, cars gotta go its not for me..."

Be curious about where s/he bought the car? Dealer? Private party? Jeff's bait, tackle and BMW store?

$5K is a lot of work for someone not to be able to notice it on a test drive. You can hide some sins in a car. But, $5K worth should be relatively noticeable.

If financed, might be a tough trade. Bought straight out? Take your lumps and move on.

Had the car for 6 months -- has 103K miles on it (how many did it have 6 months ago)? What was paid for the car 6-months ago (was it picked up below retail market? If so, how much below retail market)? Let's just say it was picked up from a private individual "as is" and was offered up at $2K below retail market -- that would suggest a still healthy but less so investment of "only" $3K in repairs vs what could have been, should have been, etc.

Are we counting such things as "tires, brake pads, struts, rotors, cabin-filters, wheel-alignment and wiper blades" as repairs? The last time I had to pay for a cabin filter it was a multi-hundred dollar affair, all in.

Is this car this person's first BMW or first high-mileage European car? My neighbor with 80,000 miles on a Pontiac (don't know the age), said the car was a money vacuum, in that it sucked all his money out of his checkbook. Most folks, these days are WARY of buying high-mileage cars that are breathtakingly expensive to repair and maintain.

And: How many times have we here said European cars are breathtakingly expensive to own out of warranty? Answer, about 139,659 times on this forum alone. Of course, you can be forgiven if you didn't read this board backwards to 2002. Really, we'll let that pass.

Key question, was a full, complete, total, non-free inspection performed on the car prior to purchase; if so what did the inspection reveal -- you would think such an inspection would've picked up something that would have caused it to burn through $5K worth of "repairs" (see maintenance comment above), perhaps?

Whenever anyone I know asks me for my advice or opinion regarding a used-car purchase, I typically urge them to spend the money for a non-biased, not-free inspection from a specialist enterprise. Here in RiverCity, there are several BMW or German or European repair houses (not dealer affiliated) who for a 3-figure number will put together a report on the used car you are lusting for, outlining the expected near term costs of ownership.

I always seem to get someone here upset at me when I suggest it is often far cheaper (on a 12, 24, 36 or even 48 month basis) to lease a brand new, with warranty (and often maintenance-included) car than it is to buy a used one with the potential of requiring huge sums of money just to keep it running.

What would a 2007 335i go for? Locally a new 3-series can be leased often for a number beginning with a 3. Often Accords can be had for even less, try $219/mo for a strippie for 27 months.

And (if it is a BMW) that mo/pmt includes the maintenance and free (well, you know) repairs for 50,000 miles. It seems to me to be hard to compete with these sub-vented leases, unless for some reason you think you are making an "investment" in a declining-value asset -- and even with BMW's that's a hard argument to win.

Going to an Accord, per se, is not a bad thing or a dumb thing to do -- in fact, such a move may very well be a good and smart thing to do; but unless the Accord in question is 100% new with factory warranty and any mntce program that may accompany it, the same rule of thumb would apply -- get the damn thing rigorously inspected before buying/leasing/financing/acquiring.

Some of us are "types." After dozes of German cars, my wife and I each went with Infiniti [her] and Acura [me]; we liked the cars for the most part, but it was really quite difficult to build up much passion or, actually, any emotion. My cousin, "Mr. Honda or Mr. Mazda and now Mr. KIA," tried out a German and, although it was no trouble, he just seemed to resent (?) the fact that he had to interact with the car -- he just couldn't get into the "don't forget to breathe" tag line sign hanging low and large at the local BMW dealership.

Maybe it is telling -- I am not certain "what" it is telling, however -- that the BMW's ouster will be followed not by another German or European or even Premium car, but by a Honda Accord. Again, there is nothing wrong with Accord's, but I would typically think folks who like BMW's unlikely to shop Honda's. Were I in the same situation, I would likely be looking to get right back on the horse and, if possible, get a younger -- or new -- BMW.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

Interesting post from elsewhere.


"Hate My BMW, need help on 9th gen accord purchase.
...own a 2007 335i coupe currently with 103k miles. Ive owned the car for id say 6 months and am already more than $5000 in repairs so long story short, cars gotta go its not for me..."

Lots of factors could be at work here- did he/she get a competent and thorough PPI(mandatory with older BMWs)? Where is he/she getting it serviced and repaired? If the shop is incompetent the repairs may be unneeded or the problems may not have been properly diagnosed. BMWs don't tolerate cutting corners with dodgy aftermarket parts. Then it might just be a shop that expects you to hand over your credit card, drop your pants, and grab your ankles; I've often told the story about the BMW dealer in Santa Monica that charges almost 3 times more than my local BMW dealer. for the identical service....