Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Mr_Shiftright

100K is a tricky mileage point to buy a used car because that's about the time when normal "expendables" are starting to expend . So things like brakes, tires, shocks/struts, belts, hoses, timing belts, battery---all that stuff is coming due at those miles if the previous owner has been relying on a reactive, rather than proactive, approach to maintenance.

benjaminh

markcincinnati said:

....I always seem to get someone here upset at me when I suggest it is often far cheaper (on a 12, 24, 36 or even 48 month basis) to lease a brand new, with warranty (and often maintenance-included) car than it is to buy a used one with the potential of requiring huge sums of money just to keep it running....

I think this is very good advice.++

markcincinnati

Mr_Shiftright said:

100K is a tricky mileage point to buy a used car because that's about the time when normal "expendables" are starting to expend . So things like brakes, tires, shocks/struts, belts, hoses, timing belts, battery---all that stuff is coming due at those miles if the previous owner has been relying on a reactive, rather than proactive, approach to maintenance.

Another telling thing: at 100,000 miles the "perceived worth" of [even] Audis, BMWs and Mercedes falls off of a cliff -- in part this just HAS to be because there will be EXPENABLES, even if the basic car is a cream puff.

Michaell

roadburner said:

benjaminh said:

Interesting post from elsewhere.


"Hate My BMW, need help on 9th gen accord purchase.
...own a 2007 335i coupe currently with 103k miles. Ive owned the car for id say 6 months and am already more than $5000 in repairs so long story short, cars gotta go its not for me..."

Lots of factors could be at work here- did he/she get a competent and thorough PPI(mandatory with older BMWs)? Where is he/she getting it serviced and repaired? If the shop is incompetent the repairs may be unneeded or the problems may not have been properly diagnosed. BMWs don't tolerate cutting corners with dodgy aftermarket parts. Then it might just be a shop that expects you to hand over your credit card, drop your pants, and grab your ankles; I've often told the story about the BMW dealer in Santa Monica that charges almost 3 times more than my local BMW dealer. for the identical service....

This is a good discussion.

I am currently in a lease of a pedestrian vehicle (Hyundai Elantra GT) that expires in about 15 months. Lately, I've been toying with the idea of getting a few-years-old Infiniti (G25x or G37x) as my next car and wonder about maintenance costs. I have a friend in CA with a J30 that has over 200,000 miles on it; he uses an independent shop for most maintenance. He only used the dealer once - to change the timing belt.

markcincinnati

2007 BMW 335i Coupe 100,574 miles: asking $13,995 (market value = $14,031 according to cargurus.com)

w/58,000 miles on the OD: asking $19,995 (market value = $17,877 according to cargurus.com)

Let's say the car was $13,000, then add $5,000 for whatever it took to keep the thing running. $18,000 or $500 per month if you could get 0.0% financing for 36 months, plus gas, plates and insurance. If you paid $13,000 that is still $361 per month (w/o warranty or maintenance) for 36 months, plus gas, plates. . .etc.

New, x-drive 3-series 2015 BMW's @36 months going for $299/mo. Includes mntce, doesn't include gas, plates and insurance. Full disclosure, before any negotiation, up front (cap cost reduction) cash = $3,000; this can be negotiated either in the discount off MSRP or other incentives that are offered from time-to-time.

There is no free-lunch (well, there is a free-lunch tomorrow, according to the sign.) I crack myself up.

I would think the new car would have a lower risk and very high expectation of having lower operating costs than a 2007 model with 100K+ miles on it.

Of course, we really don't have enough information to call the two transactions high vs low risk, for perhaps the 2007 was acquired for $3,000 cash, not $13,000 -- the ire of the poster however would seem to suggest that an impossibly low selling price was not part of the picture of this transaction some 6 months ago.

benjaminh

Michaell said:

.....I am currently in a lease of a pedestrian vehicle (Hyundai Elantra GT) that expires in about 15 months. Lately, I've been toying with the idea of getting a few-years-old Infiniti (G25x or G37x) as my next car and wonder about maintenance costs. I have a friend in CA with a J30 that has over 200,000 miles on it; he uses an independent shop for most maintenance. He only used the dealer once - to change the timing belt.

markcincinnati has some words of wisdom, perhaps for you.....

For Infiniti, what about this offer:

http://www.infinitiusa.com/offers?dcp=ppi.63023880.&dcc=0.240189298

Lease Offers
2015 Q40 WITH MOONROOF AND NAVIGATION PLUS PACKAGES
$279/ MONTH LEASE FOR
39 MONTHS
$3,999 INITIAL PAYMENT
Excludes taxes, title, license and options. Retailer Participation Required. For well qualified lessees. Offer ends 08/31/2015. [See Offer Details]

benjaminh

The guy with the bad BMW was posting on driveaccord.net. He didn't mention the purchase price, but he did say he was a college student. It seems a painful lesson has been learned. If he'd leased a new BMW, or bought a new Accord Coupe, he'd be better off today.

It's a painful and perplexing reality that sometimes used is more expensive than new.

kyfdx

benjaminh said:

Michaell said:

.....I am currently in a lease of a pedestrian vehicle (Hyundai Elantra GT) that expires in about 15 months. Lately, I've been toying with the idea of getting a few-years-old Infiniti (G25x or G37x) as my next car and wonder about maintenance costs. I have a friend in CA with a J30 that has over 200,000 miles on it; he uses an independent shop for most maintenance. He only used the dealer once - to change the timing belt.

markcincinnati has some words of wisdom, perhaps for you.....

For Infiniti, what about this offer:

http://www.infinitiusa.com/offers?dcp=ppi.63023880.&dcc=0.240189298

Lease Offers
2015 Q40 WITH MOONROOF AND NAVIGATION PLUS PACKAGES
$279/ MONTH LEASE FOR
39 MONTHS
$3,999 INITIAL PAYMENT
Excludes taxes, title, license and options. Retailer Participation Required. For well qualified lessees. Offer ends 08/31/2015. [See Offer Details]

That works out to about $370/mo.+tax.. You can negotiate a better deal on your own.. Plus, Infiniti drops big incentives on current lessees that could save you even more.

If I was writing the ad, I'd mention that the car has 327 HP and has eye-watering acceleration..

markcincinnati

Michaell - despite my previous declaration that neither my wife nor I found the Infiniti (or Acura) particularly emotionally engaging, I will add to my above urging to get a full inspection (that you PAY for) the following:

The Q40, if it is the one I think it is, will be the "Japanese BMW" if you care about my perspective; it will be quite the performer, very engaging to drive.

Moreover, based on our experience, Infiniti knows how to build a reliable and -- I would extrapolate -- durable car. However, it is a premium car and if it does need repairs, out of warranty they won't be cheap (maintenance, however, will probably cost less for an Infiniti than for a BMW or Audi, for example). At 39 months, however, I would probably have very very low concern, especially if I planned to do 39 months and move onto the next.

Whatever you do, should you go previously owned, get the thing inspected and do yourself a favor, shop the used car against a new one if monthly payment and TOC (total operating costs) are of concern -- then after you have the data, make your move.

graphicguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

100K is a tricky mileage point to buy a used car because that's about the time when normal "expendables" are starting to expend . So things like brakes, tires, shocks/struts, belts, hoses, timing belts, battery---all that stuff is coming due at those miles if the previous owner has been relying on a reactive, rather than proactive, approach to maintenance.

Yep. I'll say that all of those things (expendables) should be pretty obvious in their lack of replacement/repair with a relatively quick test drive and a quick look under the chasis and under the hood.

Me thinks this is a case where the owner said..."oooh....look, a BMW. Me want one." No consideration given at all about its condition.

roadburner

My son's 2004 X3 2.5i was purchased in December 2005 and paid off in January 2007. I wish I had been leasing a car since then- think of all the money I would have saved.
Ditto for my Club Sport(paid off in 1997) and MS3(paid cash in 2007).
Probably would have saved enough to retire at 51- oh, wait...

benjaminh

But for some people, a used BMW with high miles might fit with its nick-name: Break My Wallet.

roadburner

benjaminh said:

But for some people, a used BMW with high miles might fit with its nick-name: Break My Wallet.

Well, like I said, if you don't do your homework(like the nitwit you mentioned with the 335i- or the wearers who pay $7k for a Beemer[sic] from a BHPH lot) ) with respect to a PPI, finding a good shop, and selecting a car with a good long term prognosis, of course you can get hosed.

breld

Totally agree @roadburner - I've said it before, but we have a local shop here in Denver that we trust that works primarily on BMWs, but also other German brands. If we didn't have that relationship, I would be much more hesitant in buying any used BMWs.

breld

So, whether it's sooner (this year) or later (next year), I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger on an S4. The only other car I'm seriously considering is the 4 series GC.

So, @markcincinnati (and others feel free to chime in), I know you've been extremely happy with your S4. Any advice you'd have as far as issues to be aware of as an owner? I assume it's a good daily driver? I know others here have had less than stellar ownership experiences with the model too (GG, right?)

Being fully aware of a new model due out within a year, I am a little hesitant on getting the outgoing one, but there's also something to getting a model with the bugs worked out. And I'm leaning toward a manual trannie, which I'm just guessing won't be available this next go around.

Thanks!

markcincinnati

You Never Close Your Eyes . . .

To many – perhaps most – of us born in the ‘50’s, it is difficult to comprehend or even imagine the apparent blasé attitude of many Americans, most of them born after the ‘70’s or ‘80’s (apparently), toward cars. I work with 30, 40 & 50-somethings. Only those seeing, or soon seeing their 5th decade seem to have much, if any, interest in cars. One gentleman loves his Mini; and is a pretty ardent participant in local and even some national Mini events.

Getting him started on what he did last weekend surely invites him to share the pictures from the most recent cross-country Mini event or gathering. He has a map over his desk outlining a coast-to-coast Mini drive, and it is easy to find him gazing – longingly – at that map from time-to-time. Other than that, these “youngsters” seem to care less about what “my peeps” hold dear: Fine cars, fine dining, fine wine and home theaters that require a minimum of a 70” screen.

These “yutes” seem mildly, or politely, interested in “my generation’s” escapades, but there is virtually no-one left on the planet who seems to know or care much about cars – far as I know, I’m the only subscriber to any auto-enthusiast magazines; no really, I’m the last one, anywhere.

One of the mid-fifty-ish folks I know recently traded in his stick-shift Acura TL for a used RDX (really incredibly low mileage). He had, at least, taken the time to research his purchase, remarking about the SH-AWD and the turbo charged engine (and he loves the DVD-Audio sound system). But, beyond his own vehicle, beyond the Acura brand, he neither knows nor cares.

My nephew, a twenty-something wrapping up his undergraduate degree (part time) while working (full time), certainly has the means to drive something that could get his adrenaline pumping, but he has a Saturn – and I don’t think it has been washed anytime in the 21st century, leading me to conclude he cares not at all for cars (his at least).

OK, so I can find almost no-one interested in discussing the “Performance Sedan” (ELLPS and/or LPS) class. Must be that when I was growing up the automobile was the symbol of freedom, fun and somewhat even a symbol of a certain status (thinking of V8 vs 6, “SS” vs Biscayne, etc.). Thin red-striped sidewall tires, “Wide-Oval” rubber and Hurst Shifters in your newly acquired Goat ruled my formative years. I couldn’t wait to get my temps, my license and ultimately my own car, a 1963 lime-green Chrysler Newport. I ran the thing without an air-cleaner and pulled the hub-caps (remember those?) and shined the matte black paint on the wheels with STP and Pledge (as I recall, I did this ritual daily – at least during the good months of the year).

Today, our office manager a late-30’s woman, cares about cars perhaps on-par with dishwashing machines and dual-fuel ranges; no wait, dual-fuel ranges rule, especially if they come from Kitchen Aid or Jenn-Air.

Today’s youth, consisting, in part, of tomorrow’s Premium Class buyers look at cars almost as a necessary evil or, at best, a four-wheel appliance – seemingly the more sterile and passionless the better.

It seems to me that cars must no longer symbolize freedom, rather they suggest you're “joining a group” [under duress] – these post-baby boomers somehow “lost that lovin’ feelin’” so many of us embraced then and, without being too sentimental, come close to cherishing today.

I recall my sophomore year at college – I had met the girl. She lived in Florida, I in Ohio, and I just couldn’t imagine how we could spend Thanksgiving break apart, so I filled up the ol’ ’63 Newport and made the drive – virtually non-stop – from Oxford, Ohio to Naples, Florida. It is a wonder I didn’t kill myself, I got so sleepy.

The point is, the car granted me both the ability and freedom to choose to make the moronic decision to drive, almost literally, down and back over a three-day period (and, since I needed gas money, I had to sleep in the damn car, unable to afford a place to stay). I loved it.

“Kids” today don’t take “road trips,” don’t yell “shot-gun” and don’t know that a ’63 Newport had the 361 CI V8, while the 300 and the New Yorker had a 383 and a 413 respectively. Clarification, I would not expect a 20-year old today to know much, if anything about a 1963 vintage automobile; my point is these youngin’s don’t know what 335i, 328i, quattro, SH-AWD, 4-Motion, Tip-tronic or even ABS means. I assume they know the name BMW, Cadillac and Ferrari, however – I hope they do, anyway.

Automobile manufacturers have a lot of research, development and marketing to do if they want to return to their former selves, in terms of being Objets de Desír.

Those of us who bother to participate here, it appears, are [perhaps] a dying generation.

Mr_Shiftright

Young people just express this differently. Many find "utility" far more attractive than "performance". Perhaps that's what you're noticing.

Just as one example. There is a seriously significant "cult" of young people who spend big bucks on VW Camper Vans and who travel in packs around the country. They'll drop $35K on a VW Synchro Camper but never on a performance sedan. These aren't hippies, they are working families and often professionals.

robr2

mark - I have to agree. I would have to say that most under 30 have no interest in automobiles. As hard as I tried, my 18 YO could care less about cars.

You mentioned the freedom that your 93 Newport gave you. I too felt that my 72 Cutlass gave me freedom. But we grew up in a much smaller world. Cases in point:

Before I had a grown up job, I had been on one plane trip. I can't count the number of times my kids have been on plane trips. My 15 YO daughter is going on 3 of them in the next 12 months and none of them is with family.

We had 3 channels on TV - if your family was rich and had UHF TV, you might have 5.

We had one avocado green rotary phone in the kitchen and we didn't make long distance calls. I remember my parents calling the operator to schedule a time for an overseas line to call family for a few expensive minutes of conversation.

On Sundays we went to church then went to our cousin's house for a late lunch and a day of fun or the beach for an all day outing involving lots of water, sand, and sunburns.

We would go on vacation to the beach two hours away and know nothing of what was going on at home.

Kids today - I can't believe I just said that - have the world at the fingertips and that is their freedom. The don't need a car to take them away.

It's not necessarily a bad thing. We can lament the interest in automobiles but there are so many more choices available to people.

laurasdada

My son is taking his driver's test tomorrow morning. He is maniacal about cell phones and gaming consoles. Only a passing interest in cars. But, to give him props, he much prefers my XF to Mom's 535xi (and expects me to give him the XF immediately upon licensure!). His car interest usually starts in the 7 figure range, he seems to admire the Bugatti Veyron. My guess, he'll have one before me...

laurasdada

breld said:

So, whether it's sooner (this year) or later (next year), I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger on an S4. The only other car I'm seriously considering is the 4 series GC.

So, @markcincinnati (and others feel free to chime in), I know you've been extremely happy with your S4. Any advice you'd have as far as issues to be aware of as an owner? I assume it's a good daily driver? I know others here have had less than stellar ownership experiences with the model too (GG, right?)

Being fully aware of a new model due out within a year, I am a little hesitant on getting the outgoing one, but there's also something to getting a model with the bugs worked out. And I'm leaning toward a manual trannie, which I'm just guessing won't be available this next go around.

Thanks!

Don't forget, some new players on the field coming up to bat. If you wait, you can try the Jag XE and Alfa Giulia and post reviews here!

roadburner

My son is almost 21 and has a fairly strong interest in cars. He prefers performance cars but is patient and waiting until he is out on his own to get one. Currently he likes the M3/4, Cayman S, GT350, STI, and the Hellcat Challenger- as well as some true exotics. He has had a lot of exposure to the performance side, hanging out at O'fest with me and shagging rides in fairly quick cars such as a B7 press loaner and a GT2 RS.

Mr_Shiftright

We can build him a Hellcat beater for less $$$. Check out this month's issue of Hotrod magazine.

markcincinnati

breld: My S4 is a mechanical device and, like all such devices, isn't perfect. Having said that, I am now north of 32,000 miles and, other than springing perhaps a little early for new tires, have nothing negative to report with respect to reliability, drive-ability, performance or efficiency.

I ordered mine with A/S tires, which does set the top speed limit (which can be changed with a keystroke or two) to 130MPH. Mine is a Premium+ model (DSG 7-speed transmission) with MMI/Navigation Plus, Audi-side assist, full leather [no alcantara inserts] seats (in red), B&O sound system/speakers, Audi-care and Carbon Fiber interior trim. It, with shipping, came to ~$57K; and I paid 94% of sticker (member of the Audi Club of NA, discount of 6%).

At my own option, I have doubled the # of oil changes (I go in every 5,000 miles, meaning I pay for every-other oil change.) I have had the car mini detailed twice and a full-on inside and outside detail once (in the 22 or 23 months since I got it). I swapped the OE tires for Conti's Extreme Contact DWS/06's a couple thousand miles ago and the handling took a very big step up and road noise, already low, dropped even further.

I would get another one -- without any question (assuming the price doesn't shoot up like Cadillac did to the CTS line). I see no reason NOT to keep it until at least 90,000+ miles (based on its complete lack of any issues, thus far.)

I have no clue if these cars hold their value better than or worse than whatever they might be shopped against -- my sense is at $57K, I would have had to take a lesser-contented BMW 335i x-drive. We've had 3 BMW's and this Audi feels more powerful than any i6 BMW we've had, but since the Audi is supercharged, this may not be a fair comparison.

I wish the back seat had at least 1" additional leg room, but since my 22 pound Sheltie is usually the only rear seat passenger, it is not really a show stopper; besides the next gen "A4/S4" family will grow in size somewhat, so, again, if I knew then what I know now, I would, without hesitation repeat the acquisition of an S4.

My complaints -- ONE; the car came with WiFi based on T-Mobile 3G technology. If I actually could find and keep a 3G signal (instead, mine is mostly at 2G), I would be fine with the WiFi performance. Ultimately, my dealer showed me a secret method of adapting the carrier from T-Mobile to AT&T with some software coding and a new SIMM chip -- I am now, always in 3G. I read somewhere that the 2016 A4/S4's will offer 4G LTE radios, solving the T-Mobile (in our geography) performance issues.

Love the feature of being able to Google a destination by voice and having the sat nav take you there -- all hands free.

Love the instant response of the power, the 7-speed DSG and the tuneage from the B&O speakers.

Regrets? Wish I had gone the extra $1,000 for the Sport Differential (Audi's name for torque vectoring).

After driving an S4, you will -- upon sliding behind the wheel of almost any other car -- wonder if the different car than the S4 is, somehow, broke. The 3.0T motor is damn near electric in feel as it whisks you effortlessly from 0 to 60, just about the time you reach the end of your . . . driveway. Ruh Roh!

Hope this helps.

P.S. I am not too much of a believer that "new models" are prone to first-year glitches; I am a believer, however, that often the last year of a model's life-cycle provides the least amount of problems, often the greatest amount of content for the dollars spent and a pretty good chance of a deeper discount since there are no secrets. In other words, there will be a new, B9, A4/S4 model -- MY 2017. The 2016's, therefore will have to have more content and a better deal in order to help dealers clear out the "old" inventory thus making room for the new. Audi, I believe, has taken to delaying the availability of the new model until a certain threshold of sales of the old model has passed, therefore providing some "value support" both for the dealers and ultimately, of course, the buyers.

Discounts will be there for 2016 A4/S4's -- but don't expect to see a $58,000 S4 for $48K just because there is a new 2017 in the pipeline.

breld

@markcincinnati - helps tremendously. Thanks for the great feedback and summation of your ownership thus far. Like you, we've had several BMWs, and for the current crop of offerings, both my wife and I are simply finding ourselves more enthralled with the Audi product right now, even with the "old" platform A4/S4.

markcincinnati

breld said:

@markcincinnati - helps tremendously. Thanks for the great feedback and summation of your ownership thus far. Like you, we've had several BMWs, and for the current crop of offerings, both my wife and I are simply finding ourselves more enthralled with the Audi product right now, even with the "old" platform A4/S4.

I do want to make it clear: I wouldn't throw a BMW 335i out of bed for eating crackers -- hell, I'd probably be willing to BRING the crackers. Translation: If I couldn't have an Audi, I'd have a BMW without any hesitation. For some reason, I don't have the same feeling about the Mercedes models that are often compared to the Audi A4 and A6 lineup (or the BMW 3 and 5 series lineup.)

I just think you get more car for the money, at this point in history, from Audi -- besides, I am totally an AWD customer, and also believe nobody does AWD better than Audi [quattro].

circlew

I just think you get more car for the money, at this point in history, from Audi -- besides, I am totally an AWD customer, and also believe nobody does AWD better than Audi [quattro].

Subaru

roadburner

markcincinnati said:

I do want to make it clear: I wouldn't throw a BMW 335i out of bed for eating crackers...

The current 335i/435i does nothing for me; perhaps the 340i/440i will reignite my enthusiasm for the marque, but I wouldn't hold my breath. As for AWD, I like Audis OK, but I prefer the more aggressive character of the STI.

nyccarguy

@markcincinnati - so you plan on keeping your S4 for the long haul?  That is impressive given your history of leasing or trading out once the warranty is up.

markcincinnati

circlew said:

I just think you get more car for the money, at this point in history, from Audi -- besides, I am totally an AWD customer, and also believe nobody does AWD better than Audi [quattro].

Subaru

Is Subaru's AWD reactive (i.e., lags)? Better question what is the basis of the Subaru AWD system, Haldex, TorSen, other etc?

Just curious. And, what is the Subaru's torque bias? Fr, Rr, symmetrical . . .

Michaell

markcincinnati said:

I just think you get more car for the money, at this point in history, from Audi -- besides, I am totally an AWD customer, and also believe nobody does AWD better than Audi [quattro].

Subaru

Is Subaru's AWD reactive (i.e., lags)? Better question what is the basis of the Subaru AWD system, Haldex, TorSen, other etc? Just curious. And, what is the Subaru's torque bias? Fr, Rr, symmetrical . . .

The badge on the back of our 2015 Outback says symmetrical. 

circlew

Subaru has 4 different AWD setups but they have fundamental similarities. The boxer setup allows for a center mounted trans eliminating uneven axles to create a balanced system for each side of the car, eliminating torque steer. They also have a 50/50 (or very close to it) depending on the system that is being used (Torsen based), where as other systems are fwd cars that send small amounts of power to the rear wheels if needed (Haldex based).
With Audi, they have two different kinds of setups, one being Haldex based the other being Torsen based. It depends on which type of motor being used in the car if it is the inline four in the 2.0T or a VR6 configuration like the 3.2 or 2.8 cars it's a Haldex based system, if it uses a true V6 or a V8 then it gets the Torsen based system and is rear biased in power split.
Most companies use the Haldex based AWD i.e. Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc. That system is not as effective since it doesn't have as much power going to each wheel when it needs it. If you are driving on ice, or snow, or in the rain it helps to have the power going to those wheels, with Subaru you have the car shifting around power as well, creating a system that is unmatched by most systems, Audi is in a close second with its Quattro system when using the Torsen system.

cdnpinhead

nyccarguy said:

@markcincinnati - so you plan on keeping your S4 for the long haul?  

One person's "long haul" is another's break-in period. This'll be interesting to watch.

dino001

circlew said:

Subaru has 4 different AWD setups but they have fundamental similarities. The boxer setup allows for a center mounted trans eliminating uneven axles to create a balanced system for each side of the car, eliminating torque steer. They also have a 50/50 (or very close to it) depending on the system that is being used (Torsen based), where as other systems are fwd cars that send small amounts of power to the rear wheels if needed (Haldex based). With Audi, they have two different kinds of setups, one being Haldex based the other being Torsen based. It depends on which type of motor being used in the car if it is the inline four in the 2.0T or a VR6 configuration like the 3.2 or 2.8 cars it's a Haldex based system, if it uses a true V6 or a V8 then it gets the Torsen based system and is rear biased in power split. Most companies use the Haldex based AWD i.e. Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc. That system is not as effective since it doesn't have as much power going to each wheel when it needs it. If you are driving on ice, or snow, or in the rain it helps to have the power going to those wheels, with Subaru you have the car shifting around power as well, creating a system that is unmatched by most systems, Audi is in a close second with its Quattro system when using the Torsen system.

What he said with exception of CVT and old 4AT Subarus used 90/10 split, 5AT six cylinder engines had 45/55 split, I think.  Don't know today.  Manual Subies had 50/50 with STI extra feature of driver-controlled bias adjustment, I think it was +/- 20.  Audi's setup was also dictated by engine position - transverse had Haldex AWD, longitudinal had Torsen, as a rule of thumb.

breld

markcincinnati said:

breld said:

@markcincinnati - helps tremendously. Thanks for the great feedback and summation of your ownership thus far. Like you, we've had several BMWs, and for the current crop of offerings, both my wife and I are simply finding ourselves more enthralled with the Audi product right now, even with the "old" platform A4/S4.

I do want to make it clear: I wouldn't throw a BMW 335i out of bed for eating crackers -- hell, I'd probably be willing to BRING the crackers. Translation: If I couldn't have an Audi, I'd have a BMW without any hesitation. For some reason, I don't have the same feeling about the Mercedes models that are often compared to the Audi A4 and A6 lineup (or the BMW 3 and 5 series lineup.)

I just think you get more car for the money, at this point in history, from Audi -- besides, I am totally an AWD customer, and also believe nobody does AWD better than Audi [quattro].

I'd agree on the more car for the money, at least for now. A 428xi GC equipped as I'd like it (and comparable in features to the S4) is about the same money as the S4.

I had the previous gen 335xi (E90) and probably miss that car more than any other in recent ownership, other than perhaps the tight rear seat. I think my affinity for the S4 harkens back to the feel of that car.

markcincinnati

I had a 2005 A6 3.2 -- it was TorSen. As far as I know, all [quattro] Audi's that use a "north south" engine (longitudinal) are equipped with a TorSen system, not Haldex. Audi TT's and some A3 models (and VW golfs) had east west engines and utilized Haldex mechanisms.

Early Audis with the TorSen system were 50 50 torque split, Haldex systems were typically 90 10 (F R) splits.

In the US, at least, almost all Audis sold for the past couple of decades have been quattros and almost all of them have been TorSen, culminating in the cars using TorSen having a REAR biased AWD design. The sport differential (rear only) further enabled Audis so equipped to mitigate the understeer prevalent in cars (like Audis) with their engines ahead of the front axle.

TorSen AWD systems have many positives but at the cost of added weight.

Currently Audi continues to balance the weight of many of its cars to be less nose heavy than in the past.

As far as I know, TorSen AWD systems are the only systems that "bind in real time" -- meaning they do not react, they just act -- essentially eliminating the torque shift lag time of other reactive systems.

In day to day use, I have to wonder, however, if most of us mere mortals can actually tell the difference between symmetrical and asymmetrical (rear biased) systems -- although I do believe it is quite possible to tell you're driving an essentially FWD car that happens to be able to shift power aft (Acura and Volvo spring to mind).

Even so, an Acura TLX with SH-AWD can do a pretty good imitation of an S4 much of the time -- in the clutch, so to speak, however, the FWD biased systems often still feel more FWD than AWD to me.

I certainly have nuttin' but respect for Subaru; however, I would suspect most folks shopping for a $60K S4 or BMW 340ix probably don't venture into a Subaru showroom -- but, as usual, I remain, "often wrong, but never uncertain."

stickguy

not all kids. My son (24) likes cars, and has gotten deep into the German kool aid pitcher. he is really antsy to get through his Jetta lease, and move up to an Audi (A3 or S3).

my daughter (19) loves driving for the sake of driving, and was very interested (and particular) about shopping for the cars that she would be driving.

qbrozen

markcincinnati said:

I certainly have nuttin' but respect for Subaru; however, I would suspect most folks shopping for a $60K S4 or BMW 340ix probably don't venture into a Subaru showroom -- but, as usual, I remain, "often wrong, but never uncertain."

I would agree, but Subaru was only mentioned because somebody wrote something like "nobody does awd better than audi."

graphicguy

Nothing wrong with "this generation". Matter of fact, my son is one of them. He is a car enthusiast. His dream car is a Nissan GTR.

Funny, he made an observation about the "guys" around his age (and younger) who want a BMW, but want to put the 22" wheels on it, and ruin the handling.....all in the name of some perceived "status" that has the wheels exceeding the desire for performance.

Can't disagree with him.

markcincinnati

qbrozen said:

markcincinnati said:

I certainly have nuttin' but respect for Subaru; however, I would suspect most folks shopping for a $60K S4 or BMW 340ix probably don't venture into a Subaru showroom -- but, as usual, I remain, "often wrong, but never uncertain."

I would agree, but Subaru was only mentioned because somebody wrote something like "nobody does awd better than audi."

OK, how 'bout this: "Audi certainly has its fans and foes, but those in both camps agree, if you're looking for an AWD premium luxury performance sedan, the short list has Audi atop it!"

I assume the possibility and perhaps the probability that Porsche and Lambo may "do awd better than Audi" but the thing is, even these two super-car brands are all part of the same family. The Lambo system appears to be in a leadership position what with electronic control of all three differentials.

But, my "assertion" was in the context of the LPS and ELLPS world we rage on about here on this forum.

Techie in nature:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qkd9B1wx540

More entertaining and a bit of a history lesson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z19953Dy_SA

Here is another assertion, but this one is not based on any experience or real study of the brand:

In the class of cars ("economy car", according to Car & Driver) Subaru typically is placed, Subaru does AWD better than any of its competitors. My only reason for such a conclusion is that Subaru has demonstrated its almost fanatical dedication to AWD and, over the years, at least one of its cars, the WRX, has been praised as the Japanese S4.

The differences and similarities are discussed and dissected here in this comparison of a 2015 WRX to a 2010 S4.

New vs. Old:
2015 Subaru WRX vs. 2010 Audi S4:The new WRX meets an older version of what it aspires to be.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/new-vs-old-2015-subaru-wrx-vs-2010-audi-s4-comparison-test

Now for the fine print: Today, as a practical matter, several [many?] companies manufacture and market great AWD cars. It is also true that Audi has been doing this for decades (in some cases decades longer than other's in its class), meaning others have been at this nowhere near as long.

Yet technology has progressed sufficiently that the market may not perceive anything more than subtle differences between Audi's, BMW's, Lexus', Volvo's or Subaru's approach to AWD; but those who make their living knowing about the differences and the subtleties, regularly praise Audi's approach as very significant and often superior. Of course, in all fairness, many of the enthusiast magazines and their editors and staff now spend more ink describing the overall performance of the cars they review than they do on describing and detailing how one AWD choice differs, is better or worse, than another.

Often wrong, but never uncertain, I say: "Nobody does AWD better than Audi."

Mr_Shiftright

if you don't have the right tires, even with 8-wheel drive you aren't going anywhere.

dino001

Mark, if anything, the link proves that Subaru could be argued as a winner. It holds its own against motor with extra 65 hp and two cylinders. It cost 20 grand less in total ownership, even though 2010 S4 has already depreciated a good deal (essentially S4 still is more and anticicapted repairs kill it in this category). Yes, it is also nicer, but I don't see unquestionned superiority. And this is still the pedestrian WRX, not STI, which you can get for that price purchase difference of 5 grand or so. Extra stuff, better AWD. I know, Audi has RS4, but adjusted for the money, Subaru does it better. Engineering has always been a game of optimizing the variables to bring the value. Take WRX against A4/A5 2.0, see who wins. And WRX still costs less. Even STI may cost less than A4/A5.

It's easy to deliver a monster nobody can afford. Got extra 20 grand, get S4, got extra 40 grand, get RS4, when available, wanna keep the money, get Subaru.

benjaminh

Will the NSX, Acura's upcoming $150,000 halo car, help spur sales of more entry-level vehicles? That's the plan. Difficult to say if it'll pan out, but I think it will provide some pizzazz and buzz for Acura dealers. Prototypes are now being made, but the NSX won't be for sale for about 6 months as a 2017 model. Auto Blog as some tidbits they've gotten from the engineers and builders of the NSX, which is being built in Ohio:

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/15/acura-nsx-cosworth-engine-block-details/

"Acura NSX will use Cosworth block, plus other neat tidbits


The blue NSX you see here was built just two weeks ago. Prototype number six, it rolled off Acura's newest assembly line in Ohio and was rushed out to the Monterey peninsula for various car week activities. We had a chance to sit down with several members of the NSX team to discuss the car, the long road from concept to production, and some interesting details. Below are some choice bits from our conversations.

Acura is pretty proud of the fact that NSX version 2.0 was designed and is being built in the US. The new assembly line, called the Performance Manufacturing Center, is in Honda's hometown of Marysville, Ohio. While the line is brand new, the building has seen many uses over its lifetime, most recently as a warehouse facility. PMC staff numbers about 100, with 60 technical and 40 non-technical associates.

The car uses parts sourced globally, and one of those sources is Cosworth. The engine blocks and heads come from the English firm and get assembled into twin-turbo powerhouses at Honda's nearby Anna, Ohio, engine plant. The Cosworth name is rarely associated with a bad engine, so we were geeked to hear the NSX's 550-plus-horsepower hybrid powertrain has good genes....

....the NSX buyer will get to make lots of decisions to craft a custom order. Choices will include paint, interior hues, several wheel styles and finishes, and additional carbon-fiber parts and trim; the standard car will have an aluminum roof, while a carbon piece can be spec'd, and available carbon dress-up pieces will include side sills, a rear diffuser, and an engine dress-up kit.
The newly announced blue paint, called Nouvelle Blue Pearl, like the red used on the 2015 show car, uses a fancy multi-layer paint process from PPG that does a nice job of highlighting the surfacing and creases in the car's body. It gave the production engineers a headache, however, since it takes about 16 hours to cure versus regular paint's two-hour wait time. Not surprisingly, it will be an extra-cost option."

More at the link.

m6user

Well, both the Subarus and the NSX are not in this discussion topic. Subarus are far from luxury class and  a $150k two door coupe is hardly an entry level sedan.

roadburner

Looked at the CPO 2013 335is today; still not all that enthused. I hate the 19" wheels- more suceptable to damge, degraded ride comfort, and no performance advantage- so figure around $2500 for a decent set of 18" tires and wheels from Tire Rack. The STI or Mustang GT PP looks better all the time.

graphicguy

NSX has been a long time coming. And, just like SH AWD tech, whatever is introduced in the flagship NSX will eventually make it to the lower level cars (like the Perf/Lux TLX).

That Subaru can compete with cars that compete with cars that cost $10K-$20K more is telling. Is it an ELLP? We've had this discussion/argument ad infinitum. Entre into the segment is whatever you think it should be, not limited to the badge on the front grill/hood.

dino001

Nobody says it's ELLPS (it's not), only that its AWD system in sport models (WRX, STI) is at least in par with Audi's.

m6user

So any cheap car with a big engine fits this category?  I thought luxury brands were pretty well  defined and Ford, Subaru, etc are not.  But I guess by some strange logic a Mustang is both a luxury car and a sedan.

nyccarguy

I'd like to congratulate @breld who punched his CCBA card and got himself a 2016 Audi S4 with a stick. As a reference point, his wife drives an S3.

markcincinnati

At this point, as I said, most of us are unable to notice the subtleties between most AWD systems, regardless of MSRP. I do not count myself among those who are able to discern the difference; between many AWD systems -- unless they are of the FWD power biased flavor (my TL SH-AWD was FWD biased and it did seem to have gobs of torque steer, which my Audis do not exhibit).

Today, Subarus no matter what their content or technology are not in the Premium Class. For all I know they do have Audi AWD chops and are $20K or $40K less. Even the C&D comparo ended with the conclusion that the author(s) would take a 2010 S4 over a new WRX. I read their words, I do not have any experience that would allow me to make an informed (and possibly biased or unbiased) comment on the matter.

I would, initially, expect a $60K car to be in some ways superior to a $30 or $40K car, content, styling, performance, the whole package-wise. This would not be an indictment against the lesser cost vehicle.

For the moeny, were I to be given a Subaru budget, I would NOT opt for the 5-year old Audi -- I would indeed go with something NEW (very possibly the Subaru).

My experiene would lead me to advise someone who wanted S4-like performance for less money, to look seriously at an Acura TLX SH-AWD (Advance). If the Premium Car experience was unimportant to this someone, I would certainly suggest they shop Subaru, especially if one of their criteria was having AWD.

I have, very recently, read some reviews of the Nissan Maxima Platinum version -- while not a member of the Premium Class (as defined by someone, somewhere), this new Maxima certainly seems to ring many of the bells that one would normally associate with ELLPS -- although Infiniti folks would certainly beg to differ.

Most of what I seem to come across in my google searches are essays and sites that praise Audi's TorSen based quattro system as "one of the best" or sometimes even the best AWD systems currently on the market.

That Subaru's system may be right up there is something I shall surely remember when I come across such commentary or test reports. Mean time, since we're not speaking/discussing, HERE of either Lambo's or Subbie's systems, I suggest we discuss an even larger issue for some folks: AWD vs 2WD -- my position is that AWD is what the market is looking for and willing to spend money on. I would postulate that one of the hallmarks required for sustainable success in the market is / are four driven wheels.

circlew

Checked out a new CTS 4cylt T Performance = $58,000 sticker. 272hp/295lb.-ft.

Interesting the options listed had no price. Last car I'd consider at that price.