Subaru Crew Cafe

paisan

Well Isuzu had 10 years to perfect it (same design from '92->'02 with minor tweaks) when you have engineered a vehicle sooooo long, you know how to do it correctly. Kinda like the 5.7L V8s that Chevy makes and the 5.0l Ford.

Funniest thing about CR is that they rate it as reliable as JD Powers cause their reliability dept takes the real world stats. Oh well I'm happy cause they sold so poorly I'll be able to pick up a low milage one in a few years dirt cheap!

-mike

ateixeira

It's tried-and-true. There hasn't been a version 1.0 in a decade.

-juice

rsholland

Is it possible (or practical) to have power transferred from the engine/transmission to the wheels, via hydraulic lines (similar in concept to brake lines)?

Currently all power is transferred via a driveshaft, and then to the front and rear axles. With the boxer engine, that pretty much means the engine has to hang in front of the front axle (like Subaru), or behind the rear axle (like Porsche) if you want to have AWD.

If the power could be transmitted via flexible hydraulic lines, rather than rigid shafts, I would think there could be for options in terms of engine placement. Am I going down a slippery slope here? (sorry, I couldn't resist!)

Bob

ateixeira

In concept, the fluid would have to cycle back or you'd run dry. Could they change flow rates quickly enough to power the wheels?

Aside from cars, don't they use similar technology on riding mowers? Or am I nuts?

-juice

rsholland

it would have to flow back. What I would assume is, one the fluid reaches the wheels, it would turn a gear, or set of gears, that would be hooked up to the wheels. The oil would then return to its place of origin, and continue the cycle, over and over again.

Bob

rsholland

Is that the "hydrostatic" system that Honda uses?

Bob

rsholland

part of my question is: Are there better ways of transferring power from the engine to the wheels, other than a driveshaft? It doesn't have to be hydraulic; perhaps electric?

Bob

ateixeira

That is what I was thinking of, Bob, but I'm not sure exactly how they work. I think CR said those were not as reliable, FWIW.

Hmm, let's think about that question, and then think about how AWD would work.

I guess brakes have EBD, so you could have EAD, electronic axle-force distribution. Managing a limited slip system would be hard. They'd probably need traction control.

-juice

rsholland

you would need the long-rumored (and anticipated) 42 volt battery/electrical system to pull this off.

That would give new (and real) meaning to the phrase: "Drive by Wire!"

Bob

paisan

having 2 diffys for the front? This might work better on a porsche where the engine is in the rear, but you could have the tranny split into 3 outputs 1 to the rear and 2 to the front, then have some kind of diffy @ each wheel.

Dunno

-mike

rsholland

if there's a way to eliminate/replace the driveshaft, it would open up all sorts of possibilities in terms of packaging, and not just for the engine. It would give you more choices in terms of fuel tank placement, same with the spare tire, not to mention passenger-related items, such as seating, etc.

Bob

paisan

Doubt you can do it really. I mean these aren't small forces we are dealing with.

-mike

ffsteve

A good subject Bob. Direct drive systems are common in the large earth mover vehicles, but I've never seen a mention of same for passenger vehicles (or trucks) aside from futuristic fancies.

Hydraulic drive motors are common enough in the larger applications, but the efficiency must be way down when compared with a direct gear drive system. One would have a hydraulic pump attached to the engine and control valves and hoses leading to each wheel. A return hose would be present on each wheel to complete the circuit.

For an AWD vehicle, I think you would need the common compressor at the engine, plus 4 sets of valves and cables for each driven wheel. Then at each wheel would be the actual drive motor. Even if feasible from a weight, efficiency and cost viewpoint, seems to me like there are a lot of possibilities for leaks!

Direct drive electric motors at each wheel might be more practical - now, and in future as experience in electric vehicles grows. Transmission of power by electric line is far more attractive (in my opinion) to the hydraulic alternative. I think I may have read of concept cars using this. I'll have to browse around to see what pops up.

I'd like to hear other opinons on this.

Steve

ffsteve

Why do you think the Subaru boxer engine is particularly difficult to place between the axles? The Olds Toronado had a monster V8 located just behind the front axle, but I believe one of the front drive shafts had to be passed through the oil pan (with suitable seals of course). The boxer might have an advantage in this application because of its comparatively shorter height over an inline or V engine. I suppose it all comes down to trade-off between center of gravity and ground clearance.

Steve

rsholland

when the 42 volt systems become commonplace, we will see all sorts of "accepted" automotive systems being challenged. I think the driveshaft could very well be one of those systems.

Bob

paisan

The GM I-6 in the TB/Envoy has the front axle go through the oil-pan. No seals cause the pan is donut shaped at that point.

-mike

rsholland

only becomes a problem with AWD applications, which is what got me started on this topic.

Bob

rsholland

you can do that, but you are raising the engine when you do so, thus raising the center of gravity. Right now with a boxer engine, the driveshaft basically lines up with the crankshaft, in terms of height off the ground.

It may work for an inline engine like that in the new TrailBlazer, but I don't think it would work on a boxer engine.

Bob

ffsteve

Understand your point Bob. While I believe the Toronado system could be adapted to AWD fairly simply (engineering wise), I'm not sure how to place a boxer engine in a similar configuration. It can't go alongside the transmission/driveshafts like an in-line or V engine, and if it is placed above then the CoG is affected (but by how much - too much?).

Still thinking...

In the meantime, I did find an (extreme) example of a small vehicle with hydraulic drive system. Check it out.

http://www.fleckproducts.com/mnstrbike-hydr.html

Steve

ateixeira

Hmm, brakes require power assist, now that I think about it. So they may not be the most efficient way to send force to the wheels.

Steve: brakes don't leak often. But it might require much more pressure.

You're onto something when you mention electrical motors providing power. These "through the road" AWD systems will become more and more popular, I bet.

-juice

ateixeira

Holy Cow, looks like Big Foot's little cousin.

-juice

ffsteve

Juice,

You're right about brakes - they don't leak for the most part. But when I think of an earth-mover, all I can see are fluid leaks and oil stains. Perhaps due to the different level of engineering (smaller production size) or even maintenance (accepted shorter maintenance interval), or even just the number of lines and connectors.

Oh, and Go Brazil! (but I won't be sorry to see Germany take it either - I'm rather ambivalent at the moment). Regardless who wins, I think it will be a good game.

Steve

paisan

Also in a brake line it's linearly moving back and forth no? where the fluid moves literally an inch or less, whereas to use it for movement it would be flowing?

-mike

hypov

Where exactly will you go with that thing?!

-Dave

fibber2

is this what you really want? As my namesake (Steve) said, look at any earthmoving equipment's hydraulic mess for reasons why not to go this approach. Off of the engine you need a pump capable of delivering high pressure / high volume fluid flow. On the receiving end you need a fluid turbine to recreate rotational motion. The response time of the system would be slow, and the pumping losses very high. Think slippage, ie like having multiple torque converters.

Brakes are very different - only applied force to stop a rotating object (motion becomes heat). Creating rotation is an energy conversion nightmare.

Steve

rsholland

Can you imagine laying that bike into a dirt berm at speed!?

Actually, can you even imagine just getting on it!?

Bob

hypov

"just getting on it".
How do you get up there?
Huh, don't want to fall off that bike

-Dave

rsholland

http://www.auto.com/industry/trail27_20020627.htm

rsholland

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/ptech/06/24/diagnosing.cars.ap/

storyteller

Minnesota Senator Paul Wellstone is pushing a bill to counter this movement to freeze out smaller, unaffiliated shops. I don't know what its chances are. I'd hate to see the dealerships get a complete monopoly on car repair.

Steve

miksmi

Hi gang,

On Saturday, I'll get some much-needed GT seat time in the GT, as we're off to visit my wife's folks in a town south of Boston for a week. 4am departure, woo hoo! When not sailing, I'll try to check in.

Cheers,

..Mike

rsholland

I'm going to create a new thread over on the "News & Views" forum regarding this issue, so that it gets more exposure.

Bob

rsholland

The current issue of AutoWeek has listed its "America's Best" awards for 2002.

In the Best Sports Sedan category:

1 BMW M5
2 BMW M3
3 WRX

Bob

ateixeira

Independent mechanics should learn a simple fix for the CEL: cover it with tape. Or drill a hole into the bulb. ;-)

Bob: they have the order reversed!

-juice

kate5000

yes, The Game on weekend: B vs G

let's have a poll who wins World Cup...

ateixeira

Brazil 2, Germany 1.

Germany gave the US lots of chances, but the US could not finish. Brazil doesn't miss those kind of chances. They also match up well against the Germans.

Germany scored lots of goals...against Saudi Arabia. Their offense was not nearly as consistent as Brazil's. And Brazil's defense has finally figured out how to play.

Fact of the day: Klose, Germany's leading scorer, was born in Poland. HA!

-juice

rbleland

Brazil - 1; Germany - 0.

Rick

Kirstie_H

In fact, there are at least 4 German players who weren't originally German... this discovered after they mocked the US for having a few naturalized citizens in the squad!

I'll be cheering for Brasil on Sunday, for sure.

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Edmunds.com

Kirstie_H

Dan Barger had a last-minute issue arise and won't be able to join us tonight; HOWEVER, the chat will go on with Heather Christensen and a new guest, Maria Burton, Check Point and Transition Area Manager & Administrative Director.

Hope you can join us at 6pm PT/9 pm ET!

kirstie_h
Roving Host
Edmunds.com

lilbluewgn02

They will win...unless they eat too many of those Lacta chocolates.
Final Score:
Brazil 2 Germany 1 Lacta 3000

rsholland

http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=38323&dm=yes

miksmi

Amen, Bob. I've never understood the point of rebadged, indistinguishable products from the same Detroit manufacturer, be that Chrysler, Ford, or GM. Glad Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep will become more distinct.

..Mike

nygreg

Is there a hotel you would recommend in Boston? I want to take my wife there for her Bday.

Thanks,
Greg

ateixeira

I say let Chrysler become more "international" in flavor. Dodge can remain domestic in feel. Note how they use the Chrysler brand in Brazil and Europe for small cars like the Neon already anyway.

The car doesn't sell well in those places, so they can address that issue and still use the Chrysler badge.

-juice

rsholland

Yesterday (Saturday) seemed like a fine day for a drive, so where to go?

I decided to try and find SOA, up in Cherry Hill New Jersey. Heck, I figured it to be about a 2.5 hour trip from my house, and besides, I grew up in NJ, so how hard could it be? So I went to MapQuest, and plotted out my journey. That was my first mistake. My second mistake was following their directions...

I should have suspected there would be problems when MapQuest directed me through the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel, something I never take when heading north. At least I was smart enough to ignore that advice. The problems arose towards the end of the trip. For some unfathomable reason, MapQwest decided to direct me through Philly, over the Ben Franklin Bridge, and to bear left on some obscure street called Kaign Ave., which is where my problems began. According to MQ, Kaign Ave. is only about 2 miles from SOA. Well, I got so lost (because I missed that exit) that it took me another 1.5 hours to find SOA (after asking several folks for directions!). Arrgh!

Upon finding SOA, I was disappointed to find I could not drive on the parking lot because it was gated, and required a pass to open the gate! Major Bummer! I was hoping to find a "Wailing Wall" (or at the very least, Patti's dungeon!) on the SOA grounds, whereby I could at least pray to the Subaru Gods. However, that was not to be...

Other trip notes:

• The SOA building is smaller than I expected. At least it appeared that way from what I could see. I wonder if they could be out-growing their digs, and may considering a move move to larger quarters? If so, may I suggest the Baltimore/Washington area? besides being where I live, it's a great place for corporate headquarters.

• The SOA corporate campus appeared to be nice (although I didn't see much), but the surrounding neighborhood was a bit disappointing.

• With that gated entrance, how do visitors enter?

• On the way up on I-95, I noticed a car fire on southbound I-95. When I approached the scene, I noticed it was a new bright red (how appropriate!) BMW Z-3, which from the windshield forward, was absolutely engulfed in flames. The car was not in an accident, as far as I could tell. I seem to recall BMW having engine fire problems, that I think resulted in a recall. I guess this one slipped through...

• Cal Ripken's new "Ironbirds" stadium is right off I-95 in Aberdeen. I mean it is literally on the edge of the highway!

• Road tolls have been raised.

• MapQuest said that the trip from my house to SOA would be 130.3 miles, and should take 2 hours and 26 minutes. On the way home, I ignored MapQuest (took I-295 south to Delaware Memorial Bridge), and the trip took 132.4 miles and took 2 hours and 5 minutes. I was rippin' up the road!

Bob

rsholland

When it comes to discussions about car styling, it usually boils down as to whether the vehicle in question, is attractive from the front end—aka the FACE of the vehicle.

Yeah, we all comment on the profile, the rear, the wheels, etc.; but if the the front is ugly or gorgeous, that's usually the determining factor that sways the vote, either yea or nay.

Taking that thought a bit further, it's usually the grille that determines the success or failure of the front end styling. This really came to the forefront a few years ago when Dodge but a big "honkn'" grille on their RAM pickup. Ford responded by putting a bigger "honkn'" grille on their Super-Duty pickups, and now Dodge has again upped the ante with the latest RAM pickup, with its latest "In-your-face-honkn'" RAM grille. Also, in the car world, Rolls Royce has perhaps arguably the most famous "face" out there, and all because of its grille.

That's not to say that bigger grilles are better, but just that the grille is the focal point of any front end. So much depends on how it looks. It's interesting that much of the discussion of the new Impreza centers on the headlights, and not the grille. Why? Because the headlights dominate and overpower the front, and counter (violate!) the dominate grille aesthetic theory.

I think Honda did a superb job with the front of the S2000, without giving it a huge grille. What Honda did was to pull back (severely) the fenders, from the grille's outer edges, towards the front of the wheel cutout, thus giving the appearance of having the grille jut way forward, thereby giving the grille a much stronger visual presence to the front, than if it had a traditional, straight-across, flat front end. The S2000's front looks very taut and lean, almost like it was created out of Spandex.

I would love to see Subaru, on future models, follow Honda's lead, and also pull back the fenders (ala the S2000). I think the results could be stunning, if handled deftly by Subie designers.

Bob

idahodoug

While the grille (or lack of it) helps define the front end, the styling task is so unending it sometimes comes down to how much time you have for the new model. Buyers evaluate vehicles from all angles on the exterior. They also spend a great deal of time in the interior - an area many mfrs have spent much time on in recent years.

I think the new generation of headlamps has freed designers to express far more personality lately and it's nice to see. No longer does every car wear rectangular headlamps (mid 70s). No longer does every car have round lamps. Anything seems possible - limited only by public acceptance than the ability to create a good beam pattern. I like this aspect of recent design.

rsholland

There's been a lot of talk recently about the increased importance of the design of car interiors. The exterior styling of a car will attract you to the vehicle, but people live "inside" their car, not outside it, hence all the attention now being payed to the interiors.

I think this mostly good, although I see a lot more interior design that is mainly "eye candy," and runs counter to good common sense. I'm talking specifically about some cars new interest to put the main instruments in the middle of the dash (the new Mini, for example), which IMO, is bad design. I've seen a few things from BMW (of all car companies!), that are just plain stupid. IIRC, their new Z8 has instruments in the middle of the dash too. On an ultra-performance car, that about as dumb an instrument placement as they could have come up with...

Bob

rsholland

FYI:

The August issue of Motor Trend has a couple of pixs of the upcoming new GMC Envoy XUV (aka Wagonaire) with a piece of furniture sticking out the roof. It's built on the new extended-wheelbase version of the Envoy, sans third seat.

Bob

lark6

I usually stay away from M/T but now I have an excuse to buy an issue.

I'm now the editor of our local chapter newsletter and I stuck a paragraph in last month about the Envoy XUV and the '03 Forester (Hill Holder) as new vehicles utilizing old pieces of Stude technology.

ed